Financial Samurai

Some ones math is wrong. You say you worked at McDonald’s for $3.50/hour now wages are 3 times that? or $10.50/hr. last time I checked the fed mim wage is $7.35/hr. at $3.50/hr you had to work 40 hrs. to earn $550/month. Now you suggest a second job? That’s 80/hr weeks. 16 hr days 5 days a week. no thank you. Do you work that? There is no defense. The top 1% needs to pay their fair share.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 25th, 2011 at 3:58 am

McDonald’s pays $10/hr now in San Francisco. Do the math and stop your entitlement attitude.

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Josh Reply:
October 25th, 2011 at 3:35 pm

By your logic, and the ‘flat tax’, you would allow someone who makes only $20,000 per year to pay $4000 of that to taxes, making a net of $16,000 (That’s a 40-hour job at $9.62/hour); which, if you live in low-income housing in Iowa, where I live, costs you $350/month roughly. just to have a roof over your head, it costs $4200/year. Food costs for a single mother (would could easily be in this situation) would be around $200/month buying the cheapest food possible at a grocery store – another $2400 annually. This mother now has $9600 left for the year ($800/month) to pay for gas to get to work (or maybe a bus which isn’t free), electricity, water, health insurance (which is usually about $300-400/month per person for bare minimum coverage), a telephone, and entertainment/toys/clothes for herself and her child. By your logic here, she isn’t taking a SINGLE entitlement aside from low income housing, which in some areas is like living in a sewer, and WILL NOT GET BY. Sure, she could take a second job, and never see her child. We haven’t even started talking about daycare costs, which are typically between $2.50-5/hour. She wouldn’t have time to go to school to better herself…..you think this person deserves this hardship only because her $9.62/hour job doesn’t pay better, or that she’s not educated enough? She doesn’t have a chance. She’s in America, and doesn’t have a chance if she lives by your conservative anti-entitlement logic. THIS is why the rich pay more. that $4000 means nothing to someone who makes that in a day or less. It means a better LIFE to this single mother…..so does the food stamps that give her a leg up, the medicaid options for her and her child so that if mommy gets sick, life doesn’t end. It means social security so that this mom, who had NO extra money to save for retirement, can at least have a place to stay and food to eat when her body won’t let her work any longer. It means the chance at an education to better herself, and an education for her child. Get off your high horse and see that the money paid by the top earners allows others to have a chance to fill their shoes someday….

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Mike Raymond Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 2:10 pm

So she made the decision to have a child and now it is my fault and Responsibility to make sure she and her child is taken care of? My wife and I made sure that we were financially secure before we decided to have children. It all comes down to being responsible. I feel bad for the children who’s parents decided not to look out for their children before they decided to bring them into this world, It’s not their fault their parents are irresponsible. Things happen in life and there should be plans for those people but those plans shouldnt be a lifestyle they should be their to help them get back on their feet.

EX-Kids on meal plans at scholl and at home they have flat screen tv’s game counsels, and some even have cell phones. Seems lke a waste of money to me, but the parents have made the most of their free lifestyle that they feel entitled to.

Josh Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 3:21 pm

I assume you mean this study http://global.nationalreview.com/dest/2011/07/18/special_amenities_and_poor_list.jpg

You’re quoting 18%, 29%, and 54.9% (which by the way, a cell phone when paid month by month on a low-end plan is as affordable or cheaper than a land line) respectively. We’re not talking living in the lap of luxury here, but I see your point, if you’re poor, you should be POOR, like homeless on the street or something right? Sure, the entitlement income guidelines need to be adjusted for qualification for things like welfare, food stamps, etc. I can agree with that. I also believe there need to be stricter time limits for being on these programs; to prevent an ‘entitled’ attitude that people should rely on the government entirely. However, I don’t think cutting these programs as a whole is beneficial. I noted in a post below about a progressive tax system I feel would be fair to all, and would bring in more revenue but wouldn’t allow 50% of the country to not pay any taxes at all. The mindset of ‘punishing the successful’ seems ludicrous to me. They are paying a larger percentage, but still bring home their ‘successfully deserved’ larger share of money annually than their middle and lower class counterparts. You still work harder, you still make more money, and the share of it is minutely more than those who make a little less than you; in short, if you get a raise, you will notice that raise on your paycheck and in your wallet. With success also comes the responsibility to ensure those who have given you your success (which in America means the middle class buying your products, services, or whatever; being our economy is 80% based on spending anyway), those people are provided for so they can continue to buy your products, services, or whatever….and so the economy turns.

zeus omally Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 4:05 pm

Mike Raymond,
Noone said it was your fault that the woman had a child, but I think you may want to consider the costs to society if that child is not taken care of. Lots of poor people abuse the system, but don’t forget that many poor people are abused BY the system as well, so the solution is to look for constructive ways to make a system(economic, social)in which more people, and their children, can become productive citizens. Many countries are more successful at this than we are and most of them have more equitable income distribution than we do in this country. We all know that the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is not a recipe for success, yet we also know that is exactly what has been happening in this country for the last 30-years. So instead of listening to the financial samurai and other conservatives in this country whine about how unfair taxes are to them, perhaps you should think about constructive things we could do to fix our broken economic system—and believe me, giving the wealthy lower taxes is not the solution, despite what many of them claim!

robert makrham Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 4:33 am

Wow good job on changing subjects attack the issue. If i worked my whole life a a certified welder making more money then both of my parents combined per year, but tell you i am one of the highest paid in my are what % would you think I am in? I am in the bottom 50% and you know who much overtime i would work to try and get by , as much as i was able to. So i should never have children because i am poor? Why am I poor because i do not work hard , I am unlucky or what? Well i know thousands of people that work hard but will never get out of this bottom have of the system.

edgar allen poe Reply:
November 9th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

I am sorry to say but everyone has to take responsiblities for their own actions and destiny. I could have mounted to more in life then I did but I made some poor decisions. The same goes for everyone else ! The example mentioned earlier about the single mother,
well wheres the father? If she was not married where was the birth control? If she was married wheres the child support from the father. It’s not fair for the tax payers to be paying for your bad judgement. You have to live with in your means or move to an area in the country that will allow you to obtain the life style you want. Nobody owes you anything and you should not expect the tax payer to pic up your short falls. I work hard for my family and I have to work even harder and see my family less because I have to support you too!
Respectfully,
Edgar Allen Poe

ryan martin Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 10:16 pm

This is why liberals are so pathetic. You think that because somebody does well in school and spends the first half of their life working hard and/or saving their money, that they should give it to low class losers who smoked weed and partied through their junior high and high school years. I don’t feel sorry for anybody that is poor. That woman who has a child probably had the kid outside of marriage and was all cracked out when she got pregnant and now you think that everyone should feel bad for her. I know people who came from nothing. They were handed the worst possible hand and still managed to be incredibly successful. I’m not saying all of homeless people. But most homeless people are on the streets because they are lazy or using drugs and alcohol. The rest are mentally ill and need help. I think that democrats think that being average is okay. What ever happened to being the best? Democrats think that they are being robin hood, but nobody is deprived of anything in the united states. Whatever you become is what you deserve. I can’t stand anyone telling me how I should spend my money that I successfully earned. All of you democrats need to go get a job or stop listening to your hippie college professors and make your own decisions.

La Conservative Latina Reply:
November 23rd, 2011 at 2:07 am

Why is that every single mom senario is her making minimum or close to minimum wage?? She is viewed as a victim and is SOL? That is only the case if that’s where she wants to be. If a woman does become pregnant and keeps her child, then she better step up to the plate and do anything possible to make a better life for her child and be a good example for her child. It kills me when some feel that they are entitled and must be given a hand. That attitude becomes a long legacy of generational hand-outs. It’s an attitude where responsibility and accountability is taken away from them. Frankly, it’s BS an not an environment or an opportunity to be responsible for their own destiny.

Why does it piss me off so much? I grew up in a very poor neighborhood. I witnessed the fraud. I was there and saw it with my own eyes. I was that young single mom making very little money. I decided to do it on my own without handouts. I lived in a converted one-car garage with no heat and no air con. During the rainy season, the walls would be moist they looked as if they were sweating. I lived in those conditions for 5.5 years while I was putting myself through college, and working full-time.

I was at the bottom fifty percent at that time, but I believed in me. I wanted to get out of being in that situation and I did it without sticking my hand out and I take pride in that. I will never forget where I came from and neither will my child. It was rough, but we did it!!

I came out of that situation and my child is now a college graduate herself. I am now married and have two more kids. I am now (according to this article) well within the five percent – more accurately within the two to three percent range.

Taking in to consideration what I went through and because I was ambitious enough to pull myself out, I’m completely insulted that I’m now being penalize for doing what I instinctually felt was best for my child and me.

I’m being punished because I refused hand-outs when I initially qualified for them. Ironic indeed!! Why did I refuse them? I was and am conservative. Yes, a Republican Hispanic single mother amongst Libs taking hand-outs.

Financial Samurai Reply:
November 23rd, 2011 at 6:16 am

Thanks for sharing your story! It is interesting how it’s always the single mother story too, oh, and with a handicap of course. One of my good friends is a singe mother too, who made it work and is now CEO of a great non profit. I was amazed, but always knew she would keep fighting without the deadbeat father and do something. I’m so impressed with her. She is a Liberal and loves Obama btw.

This article isn’t about being a liberal or conservative actually. It’ just about everybody contributing to society and giving back more than we get. My what a great scenario we’d be in if this were the case. I’m glad you made it out and have found a way to improve your situation for you and your family!

Steven Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 6:59 pm

San Fransisco is also a rather expensive place to live. I think you’d find the standard of living for the San Fran Mc’Donald’s employee is just as tight, even with that supposed 10/hour, as his midwestern 7/hour counterparts.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 11:31 pm

Bingo. At $10/hour, it may be very well more tight than someone earning $7/hr in Des Moines. I was scratching my head when folks assailed me for saying we can make $10/hour at McDonald’s here! Houses cost $700,000 on average folks.

Jessica Skorupski Reply:
October 28th, 2011 at 8:56 am

Well “Financial Samurai” I can see that you are not an objective source of information – thanks for showing your cards.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 28th, 2011 at 10:58 am

Take it up with the IRS.

Travis Reply:
November 9th, 2011 at 5:50 am

People (in general) are not asking for handouts. They are just asking for the ability to live a good life. If you work 80hr/wk, you are essentially working and sleeping. Is that really the type of life anyone wants to lead? Should we desire to live that life? If we (as a population) learned a little bit about satisfaction, about being satisfied with a comfortable life, then the wealth would naturally spread.

Instead, we have to be constantly taking advantage of others to get ahead, grinding employees into the ground, squeezing every last bit of productivity out of them until they have little energy to do anything else with their life. Some people find their jobs enjoyable and that’s great. But a lot of people are not satisfied with their professional because what they’re passionate about is not a viable career option, and that’s a reality we must live in, but shouldn’t people have some time in their lives to enjoy their life? Or should we all just submit as slaves to the capitalist system, grinding away at 80hr/wk until we die while making other people wealth enough that they don’t have to work?

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 9th, 2011 at 7:44 am

80hrs a week for an extended period of time is tough. However, if folks in America ad overseas are at least working 50-60 hrs a week to get a head, it’s up to you whether you fall forward or behind. It’s called Accepting Reality.

40 hrs a week is pretty puny if one wants to get ahead.

Todd Duguid Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 10:09 am

I love it when a lib say “Fair Share” The top ten percent of wage earners pay 73 percent of all Fed Income tax. If you want fair….. Make it 15 percent for all. that includes the 51 percent that pay no Fed tax. Now that would be fair. If you are not for taxing all equally then quit using the term “Fair Share”. You obviously dont know what it means.

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Steven Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 6:56 pm

I see new numbers every time a conservative opines on how much the wealthy pay in taxes..

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Riz Reply:
November 1st, 2011 at 2:35 pm

But of course the liberals all cite the same, exact, scientifically correct studies when opining on how much the wealthy SHOULD pay in taxes?

Edward Reply:
October 31st, 2011 at 9:45 am

Importantly that is 73% of INCOME taxes, not taxes in general. A lot of conservatives make it seem like anyone who isn’t driving a BMW doesn’t pay any taxes at all which is ridiculousIn fact there are a lot of other taxes as I’m sure conservatives know (and then ignore). Many of these taxes are regressive instead of progressive so taxes aren’t as lopsided as one would think.

In reality if you take TOTAL taxes which includes sales tax (regressive), excise taxes on gas, liquor and cigarettes (regressive), payroll taxes (regressive in that after just over 100k you don’t have to pay Social Security anymore which is a huge savings for the rich), sales tax (regressive in that the poor and middle class spend FAR more of their income period, particularly far more of their income locally), state taxes (often far more regressive then fed tax), unemployment taxes, and of course misc fees and fines (regressive in that they don’t account for income at all and are more likely to be paid by the poor who can’t fight them). Property related taxes are regressive too in that the tax savings are far less at a lower marginal rate and property (and thus property taxes) end up being a much bigger portion of household net worth for the poor and middle class.

All said that oft quoted 21% of income and 40% of income taxes figure for the top 1% ends up heading down to just about 21% of income and 21% of TOTAL taxes. The taxes paid by the poor after taking into account all the sources of taxation goes from 0% in theory to more like 15-20% in reality. In fact one of the reasons for the EITC is to offset all the taxes poor people DO pay at a much higher rate then the rich.

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This website is laughable Reply:
November 10th, 2011 at 4:10 am

I absolutely LOVE how there’s no reply to this post… Come on financial samurai, say something witty… Or is the logic too much for your conservative views?…. And to your post below please read her whole comment she said that her family makes between 40-50 thousand a year, which you yourself quoted as having an effective tax rate of about 12%… So don’t try to discredit her by saying she’s not poor… Besides the Occupy movement is against the top 1%, which she is clearly not in, no matter what her tax rate is… Get off your high horse and actually listen to what’s going on around you, because if you think you’re gonna win a fight against the 99%, you’re truly as delusional as this article suggests you are… Oh btw I too live in the bay area, I’m not poor but I’m not rich either, but I AM reasonable enough to know that our country need fundamental change…. Oh and wtf is this talk about working more than 40 hours a week? If you have one full time job, you can’t just choose to work overtime to get more hours, you need to clear it with management, who obviously won’t approve it… That means you need a second job… Ya like its so damn easy to get a 2nd job with 9% of Americans (even higher in ca) who can’t even find ONE?! Bahahaha give me a break

Financial Samurai Reply:
November 10th, 2011 at 6:45 am

What’s the comment? I can’t keep track b/c there are now close to 700.

If you have an effective federal tax rate of 22%, there’s no way in hell you are only making 40-50K a year. Perhaps if she is adding in state and every other taxes.

Do you really have no skills to be able to get second job and market yourself online eg Craigslist? If not, then there’s no helping you.

Would Love to pay ONLY my fair share Reply:
November 13th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

Wait, don’t the top earners pay sales, liquor, gas, and all the other taxes too? Presumably making more means spending more and paying more of those taxes then the bottom 50%.

ryan martin Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 10:26 pm

The top percent still would pay the seventy some odd percent sales tax you idiot. You think that the top income earners don’t spend their money. They spend more that the lower percentile so that would make the amount of taxes paid even more. If I make a thousand a week and you make ten, and we both pay ten percent income tax. I paid 100 dollars and you paid one. you only have nine dollars left. I still have 900. I would spend probably another three hundred and pay sales tax on that money spent and you would spend the rest of your money because you don’t know how to manage it. I still paid around 25 dollars more sales tax and you paid 9 cents. I think your analogy came from another retarded liberal university.

robert makrham Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 4:44 am

See what the government is trying to do is make life livable for every one by taking away from the money people have beyond bills. the bottom 50 percent has very little free money to play with but it appears the top has alot or room to play with. If i made 35000 per year my share at 15% would be 5250 which means i would bring home 29750. lets say some one made 1 million 15 percent of that would be 150 thousand so they pay the same percent but how much room do they have to play with? How much spending money do they have with 850000 left over?

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 6:37 am

You don’t think paying $150,000 in taxes or 29X more than you is fair?

freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 11:14 am

Your right … everyone should be equal and no body should make more than someone else .. even if they spent 10 years studying and 200k in college. They should be penalized and taxed higher so those who want to do nothing can laugh at them…lololololol

poormommy Reply:
November 8th, 2011 at 9:05 am

wow… financial samurai… I’m a little disgusted. I am married, and I have one child. I work 40 hours, my husband works 50 hours. We work 2 different shifts so that we don’t have to pay for child care. I am careful with our money. We pay 23% in taxes. I dont know how you came to the conclusion that the poor only pay 2.7% but you are mistaken. Taxes are important. They pay for roads, education… If I could afford to pay 150,000 in taxes, I would be happy to do so. Unfortunately, we only make about 40-50 thousand a year. I feel like everyone should pay the same percentage out of their checks. If I made more money and they took more in taxes, that would be fine b/c at the end of the day, I’m still walking home with more money in my pocket.

Financial Samurai Reply:
November 8th, 2011 at 9:40 am

Are you poor? I’m assuming you are not with you and your husband working. What is your household income?

The statistics come straight from the IRS.

If you pay a 22% effective tax rate, you are NOT poor.

living the dream in swfl Reply:
November 8th, 2011 at 9:44 pm

so why does it matter how much income a person makes I think we should all be paying taxes hard should be close in the same percent. So for me I am 27, married, with 2 kids and rough income is 130k a year after bonus and stock options. S far ytd I have paid 35k in taxes do to paying higher tax based on bonus percents. I have never had issues paying my taxes or even complained about paying my fair share of taxes. I don’t agree with the bottom 50 percent paying almost no taxes. I was not given any silver spoon and grew up in a working family but was able to go to a local community college and worked 2 jobs to get through school to be able to have an increased income. A lot of people also forget individuals like me do make more, pay more in taxes but many of us also have school loans to pay off which we never calculate into the equations. I am just tired of heating people complain they work hard and don’t make above the bottom 50 percent. Its not about working hard but more about how do you excel in a company to grow in the company and take risks. Does everyone think anyone who is in the top 10 percent didn’t take a risk in their careers at one point to get where they are. For instance the welder with the comment above. If you are working for a company that does welding have you ever taking a risk to be the best at everything from training others to networking inside the company to get promotions. Or better yet since it is nitch role have you thought about taking a risk and opening your own company. People its about leveraging your abilities to make people trust you which will give you more financial income I’ll pay my taxes at what ever rates but lets get serious and everyone needs to be paying some kind of fair rates and stop relying on government hand me outs.

Bologo Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 5:24 pm

@Mike Raymond
Is *IS* your fault if you support taking away womens rights to choose abortion.

The Neocons don’t want social systems or tax breaks for the poor or single mothers, but they sure are in a hurry for that baby to be born into poverty. besides some abortions are medically needed.

Every Pro-Life nut job should be required to take on a child, with no choice of sex, race or medical condition and not get a DIME for support. They must bring up the child to adult.

See how many of them will scurry away.

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Something Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 5:45 am

First of all, it’s still wouldn’t be his fault. Since when does an adult not have the free choice to abstain from sex in the first place or to take contraceptives. If you choose to have sex, then you choose to live with the responsibility of what that entails. If you don’t know that sex could lead to having a baby then you shouldn’t have the mental capacity to have sex in the first place. The men that have 6 kids by different mothers, they know where babies come from. The women who have 6 illegitimate kids by different fathers, they know where babies come from as well. Those people choose to have sex and they choose to have the chance of having a baby. Nobody should be able to choose to murder the child that they chose to have sex to create. A baby is a baby no matter how old it is in the womb. A human baby does not become an elephant while in utero, it is and always will be a human baby. If you had a family member in a coma who was legally dead and were told that there was a 100% chance they would be completely back to normal by 9 months from now, would it be murder to pull the plug. I think it would be. People still need to take responsibility for the choices they make.

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Jack Reply:
October 28th, 2011 at 2:14 pm

In a coma you can’t be legally dead. Brain Death (death of the Brain Stem) is what legally constitutes death. There is NO recovery from brain death. When people are in a persistent vegetative state they are not brain dead and people who are brought back after their heart has stopped NEVER had a dead brain stem at any point. How can you call abortion murder before 7 weeks, which is when the brain stem is formed. If you do not have a living brain stem, you are not alive. You are calling a clump of cells a human life – which it scientifically is not. Do not propagate lies to further your opinion. It is people like you why nobody takes anything professionals take seriously.

Basset Reply:
October 28th, 2011 at 3:09 pm

So according to your logic–I am a fertile woman going around and living her day to day life and I get forcefully raped and impregnated. Just because I am walking around with the equipment to make a baby that I am obligated carry it to term even though it may remind me of the rape every single day it continues to grow in my body. What if this same woman is married? Are you honestly saying that it is their moral obligation as a couple to have this baby that may ultimately destroy their marriage and happiness?

What about a child with a deformity? What if I am pregnant with a child that I know will never be able to live independently? Is it morally correct to knowingly give birth to a child that I will not live long enough to care for and will have to rely on the resources of the taxpayer to care for this child long after I’m gone.

If you don’t like abortion then don’t get one. If a woman wants an abortion, I really don’t care what her reasons are. Let her have it! There is no shortage of people in the world and if you look around you’ll see we are using up resources we can’t replace.

Legalized Abortion caused the crime rates to plummet.
Not all parents are equal. I’m sure there are some aborted fetuses that would have grown into successful contributors to society but a pretty high amount would grow up to be pieces of poo in the welfare system that you would complain are a drain on society that you shouldn’t have to pay for.

Something, I agree with you on you on the first point. Not our responsibility if someone else makes bad decisions. Entitlements have gotten so cushy that there is no incentive to leave the system. If they cover the bare minimum and are spartan–people aren’t going to want to stay on public assistance and will have the incentive to better themselves.

Financial Samurai Reply:
October 28th, 2011 at 11:46 pm

I see and agree with your viewpoint. If this situation occurred, you should have full authority over YOUR body, not some government, or worse yet, some strange guy in power telling you what you can and cannot do!

Something Reply:
October 28th, 2011 at 5:26 pm

Thank you for information on brain death. I am not a professional and don’t really claim to be, it was simply a hypothetical. My point is simple, if a baby will become a human being at some point in your theory, then it is a human being at that point. States define life at different points, doctors define life at different points, courts define life at different points, and people all over the planet define when life begins at different points. None of that changes the fact that the baby will, IF GIVEN A CHANCE, become a human life at some point. If you extinguish that, then you are in fact extinguishing a human life. You are not even giving the baby a chance. My wife had an ectopic pregnancy at a few weeks of baby’s life and it was devastating to both her and to me. Human life is not life because we define it at a certain point, it is life because we are giving a completely innocent being a chance at living. You can argue semantics all you want, but if you ask somebody who was told as an adult that they were almost aborted in utero, they will undoubtedly tell you they are glad they were given the chance at life.

Something Reply:
October 29th, 2011 at 6:58 am

Basset, first of all forceful rape wasn’t in the initial argument. If a woman is forcefully raped she didn’t choose to have sex to have the baby, did she? Forcible rapes generally do not create a baby, but I think that’s a different situation altogether. I think a child that has a deformity is a human being in every sense and I think it is morally wrong to kill that child just because they will cost more. I think it’s morally correct in the fact that you can pay for that child until your death and you shouldn’t have to count on society to cover it thereafter. It used to be your family, a private entity, or even a trust you set up would help with the child after your death, so I don’t think that government has to be involved in the care. I don’t think we should judge the worth of a child like that and besides any child can become deformed or mentally handicapped at or after birth and we don’t just kill them off because they would be an inconvenience.

If a baby doesn’t want to be aborted, it doesn’t get a chance to say that it doesn’t. If a woman wants to have an abortion I don’t really care what her reasons are. Let the baby have a chance at life! There may be too many people in the world, but we don’t just go causing genocides because of that. I think if a there’s a showing that a woman can’t support a number of children and is still actively having children and not really wanting them, that that woman should be sterilized and if a man continues to have sex with women despite not wanting to bear the responsibility of the children he is causing to be born, he should be sterilized. The baby, no matter what stage of life it is in, should not be penalized because the parents don’t want to take responsibility for their actions.

Enitnelav Reply:
October 28th, 2011 at 4:46 am

It sounds like you are ok with murder when it supports your agenda. Maybe we could extend abotion rights up to age thiry and if you are not able to pay your fair share of taxes by age thirty you must then be aborted. If we harvest your organs and sell them on the black market we may even be able to make an aditional profit on the abortions of 30 year old non-contributers in America. Viva la choice!

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Brooke Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 7:43 am

I have a friend that has been waiting for a child to adopt for 4 years now. She SPECIFICALLY requested a minority with special needs because she is a grade school teacher that works with crack kids all day long and actually loves her job. Hmmmm… seems odd that she is still waiting, does it not?

There are millions of people wanting babies to love and they’re waiting and waiting. I have been smugly asked “would you take that child if it’s not aborted” and I say over and over that I would take 5 of them! The greatest gift God has given us is life.

My aunt was murdered while she was pregnant. The guy that did it is in prison for the rest of his life on TWO counts of murder 1. How is it that he is in prison for killing 2 people when CLEARLY according to a “pro choice” person he only killed ONE person, as a fetus is not a person until it takes its first breath.

And I support a woman’s right to choose. She can CHOOSE not to have sex. There are rapes but that is not the fault of the child and again, there are millions of people waiting to love that baby.

The bottom line is being pregnant is inconvenient if you’re not eager to have a baby. Hell, it’s inconvenient when you ARE eager to have one.

Our constitution speaks of our posterity. And in case any of you obama lovers (cause he’s a constitutional “scholar”) need a refresher course, posterity means UNBORN generations. What if Steve Jobs biological mother had decided that she’d rather not give birth? Where would you be without your iPhone? What if Tim Tebow’s mom decided her life was more important than the baby? There are plenty of examples of people that could have CHOSEN to abort but didn’t and those babies grew up to be fabulous people.

For that matter, I notice that NONE of you “pro choice” people bother to know the history of planned parenthood or it’s founder margaret sanger. Look up the NEGRO PROJECT.

How many playwrites, poets, rock stars, football players, doctors, presidents, welders, … or just how many SMILES have we missed out on in the name of convenience?

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ryan martin Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 10:39 pm

I’m sorry but tim tebow sucks.

ryan martin Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 10:37 pm

you sound like an ignorant piece of **** that loves to blame everyone else for your problems. I had a kid when I was 24 and another when I was 25. Both were unexpected. I don’t even work half of what I’m capable and my company that I started when I was 25 grosses a quarter of a million dollars a year. I think your pathetic and you need to start blaming yourself or your parents. Even in this harsh economy, there is money out there. You just have to stop sitting on your ass collecting your unemployment check and go work for it. Why don’t you pull those work boots out from under your bed. And I don’t want to hear how you work hard every day. I’m in construction and the only way to move ahead is to bust your ass. If your not successful yet. It’s because your a piece of ****.

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Phil Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 6:56 am

McDonald’s pays $10/h? oh boy now I can buy that steak dinner I had my eye on. come on get real. So I just need to work at McDonald’s 2,500 hrs a week to get into that top 1%.

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Feigin, Patent Attorney Reply:
November 2nd, 2011 at 3:13 pm

Yeah, but try living on any income in the bottom 50%…

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IceBox Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 6:18 pm

I have to say, “financial samurai” is just plain funny. If he really thinks someone making 33k a year can afford to live in a place like San Francisco, let alone afford to pay for moving expenses to get there, than he is not living in the reality that everyone else is in. I grew up in the bay area and now live in Salt Lake City. I make around 50k a year and if I was making that and living in the bay, I would have no savings, for emergencies or retirement at all. In fact, the only way that I have been able to get ahead is mainly due to the fact that my wife makes double what I do.

And someone making $10 an hour at McDonald’s is making about 20k a year (with no benefits). And even if there were 2 people making that in San Francisco, they would not be able to afford healthcare and they would not be able to afford daycare for their kids. So, say, they both work 2 $10/hr jobs, that would be a household income of 80k or so a year. That is starting to look more like an income that a family could live off of in SF. But that also means that both parents are working 16hr days/80hr weeks. Now I am not saying it is not doable, but that also very little time for anything else other than work (being sick, getting injured, raising kids, or anything else that life may through at you). I have several friends that live in SF and have just started to get ahead financially when they started to make 80k+a year. The way I look at it if one is going to only be able to get a job at a place like McDonald’s they would be better off not moving to a “vibrant location” as you put it, because they may actually be able to save some money or afford to go to a local community college.

I would love to see all those out there that have the mind set that financial samurai have, start off in some back ass town where the only job you can get is making federal minimum wage and your parents are poor and you have little to no access to any kind of higher education, and see if they could make it out of a situation like that with no outside help.

I like to think that I have a strong work ethic, but my wife puts me to shame. I also recognize that I am where I am due to a large amount of luck. I am white, born to an upper middle class family. If I was born into a situation like I was I have little doubt I would be living pay check to pay check and struggling to get ahead.

I also love it when there are people of the attitude that if you are not rich, it is your own fault (Mr Cain). I am sure that there are very few out there who would not want to be rich, but if everyone was rich than who would clean your toilet???

There are those who have made something out of nothing and gone from poverty to upper middle class or higher, but the fact is those people are very few and far between. For the rest of us where we spend most of our lives (financially) mainly depends on the situation we were dealt.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 6:42 pm

I never said making 33K and living in SF is easy. I said even someone working at McDonald’s can find a way to make 33K and be in the top 50%.

Congrats on having yourself a spouse who makes double. Isn’t that nice.

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Chris Uffelman Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 8:22 pm

Everyone can learn a lot from Robert Kiyosaki. Financial Education is key. Want to learnt how to be rich? Take a look who we work for, The Rich. I share opportunities everyday to become an entrepreneur through Life Force Internation. I met a woman in this business who makes around $45,000 a month and the membership is free, so it is possible to become rich and start out with almost nothing.

[Reply]

david Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 6:31 pm

Im sorry, but if you can’t make it in America, you can’t make it anywhere. I did not come from a wealthy family. I worked minimum wage jobs during highschool. I started buying all my own stuff and paying for my own car at the age of 16. I never received a dime in help from my parents after I turned 18. I barely graduated highschool because I just didnt care. Luckily I realized that I wanted more for myself and now I have put myself and my wife through college, with no student loans. I came from nothing, and now make more than 50% of Americans and my wife has her own part time home business. If we can do it, anyone can do it. All it takes is a little motivation. The government that makes people’s lives easy for them removes the motivation for the person to do it themselves.

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IceBox Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 7:32 am

Are you white and male? I am not saying that you can not make it as a minority or a women in this country but there are social barriers that have been in place in this country for a long time that people who fall into that category never see. I consider myself lucky to have gotten as far as I have at the moment, and I realize part of it is due to the hard work I have put into my life, but most of it is just plain luck.

Say you are a young black male or female born into a neighborhood where the poverty rate is sky high and unemployment is double that of white america. For someone in that situation, finding a minimum wage job may be near impossible. And when you are in a situation like that you can not afford to travel far from your neighborhood to find a job that would allow you to travel back and fourth, let alone move out of your neighborhood. Now imagine that you have no father figure in your life (being raised by a single mom working 3 jobs just to put food on the table). That would just make it that much harder to learn things so valued in this country, like a work ethic.

You may not have received help from your parents before you were 18, but did you have a stable upbringing with 2 parents? If you did, that counts for a lot, and is more than most people can boast who grew up in poverty.

So, again, I will repeat this incase it was lost. It is not impossible to make it out of poverty in this country, just very hard. So to say that the government takes away motivation just shows me that you never “needed” that help. My wife for instance, grew up in a poor family in southern California. They were on government food subsidy programs, her mom was a stay at home mom, and dad worked very long hours to provide for the family. If they did not have government assistance with the extra food, there would have been times where they would not have eaten. This same thing goes for most kids that are in poverty, and for some, their school lunch (a government subsidized program) would be their only meal for a given day. Just try to learn at school when you have barely eaten all week, I know I can barely concentrate if I skip breakfast…

When you and your wife go through a bad string of luck and you both get laid off (I pray that never happens to you), and you need that or similar assistance, you may start singing a different tune.

Most of where we are in life is what we were born into. We have very little control over where we will end up. And again do not take that the wrong way, I still think it is possible to cross the “class” lines, and y wife is a perfect example of that.

The thing that I find interesting is that we have had this discussion of what is the proper amount of taxed each of us should pay. What is best for the country economically? If you look at past performance as an indicator, which is our only real resource on this, when taxes are higher, the country grows, jobs are created, and guess what? The richest does pretty well, though not as well as they have in the last few years. Every time that taxes have been significantly lowered there has been a slow down in the economy (not recession, just slower growth). And currently our tax rates are the lowest they have been since the 50s, with one exception, when Reagan cut taxes on the absolute richest among us. But when Reagan started seeing the economy, he even raised taxes! That is something you rarely hear conservatives mention.

Anyway, I must say it again, I do think it is possible to pull yourself up from your own bootstraps in this country, but is has become increasingly harder and harder in the last 10 years. I have friends who graduated with engineering degrees and are still working in bike shops because they can not find jobs using their degree.

Financial Samurai Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 10:03 am

Have you ever traveled to the flavelas in brazil or practically anywhere in India? America is like the Four Seasons compared to a many other countries out there.

I hear what you are saying. Americans just need more perspective.

Chris Uffelman Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 7:55 pm

Maybe the Rich don’t pay their fair share in taxes and maybe they do. The question is what is their fair share? Here is an Idea, stop worrying whether the rich is paying their fair share and widen the tax base by becoming an entrepreneur and create new entrepeneurs widening the tax base so that taxes may be lowered. How does that sound?

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It’s not an entitlement attitude, just because someone doesn’t want to work 2, 3, 4 jobs to make a “comfortable” living situation. Though Mcdonald’s pays $10 an hour in San Fran., that doesn’t mean that is what they pay everywhere. It’s people like you who sound like they think they are entitled, people who feel that because they had the fortunate opportunities to make over a certain amount per year that it’s just as easy for anybody else to do, and for that reason snub their noses at people who are voicing their opinions in how unfair the entire system is.

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Yeesh Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 4:22 am

Someone needs to look up the definition of entitlement. If you feel you deserve to have people give you something because you “don’t want to work”, that is an entitlement attitude.

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Steven Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 6:51 pm

I would suggest that you look up the definition, as it doesn’t only pertain to
those who “don’t want to work”, but would fit Christy’s example just as well,
of course. I think you’ve been binging conservative talking-points for so long
that you’ve forgotten that the word “entitled” does not equal “poor and lazy”.

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Steven Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 6:53 pm

Sorry for the odd construction in my post. It was orderly when I submitted it.

Mountn_Man Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 1:29 am

Chrisy said: “It’s not an entitlement attitude, just because someone doesn’t want to work 2, 3, 4 jobs to make a “comfortable” living situation.”

Thats exactly an entitlement attitude. If your not skilled, and make a meager hourly rate, and are not willing to work 2-3 jobs to make it-THATS entitlement mentality.

Entitlement means you feel you shouldn’t have to do certain things- like work 2 jobs, or overtime.

It means feeling that you deserve to make X amount of dollars no matter what, even at the expense of someone else.

Someone else WHO IS working overtime, or 2 jobs, or who has their life savings invested in a business.

Mountn_Man Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 2:04 am

“It’s not an entitlement attitude, just because someone doesn’t want to work 2, 3, 4 jobs to make a “comfortable” living situation.”

It’s people like you who sound like they think they are entitled, people who feel that because they had the fortunate opportunities to make over a certain amount per year that it’s just as EASY for anybody else to do,”

“and for that reason snub their noses at people who are voicing their opinions in how UNFAIR the entire system is.”

If your job ain’t cutting it to pay your bills, and your not willing to work 2 or 3 jobs, THAT IS an entitlement mentality.

NOBODY said life was EASY. Working 2 or 3 jobs ISN’T easy. Working 2-3 jobs isn’t a fortunate opportunity. Its called hard work. Its called determination.

You mention UNFAIR. UNFAIR is expecting those who work 60-80 hours a week, to help support those unwilling to work 60-80 hrs.

UNFAIR is expecting someone who worked hard AND got an education while also working hard, to help support someone who didn’t go out and get an education to better themselves.

UNFAIR is calling someone who works hard LUCKY.

There are 2 sayings in life that are very true.

The harder you work, the luckier you get.
and
Lifes hard. Its even harder if you’re stupid.

In your view, somebody who works 2-3 jobs or 60-80 hours a week, and some how “makes it” is lucky. Luck is nothing more than preparation meeting opportunity.

Someone who hasn’t prepared themselves won’t be able to take advantage of opportunity even if it should arise.

Most of the time, those who were able to take advantage of opportunity when it “came along” were the ones who put themselves in front of opportunity in the first place.

A surgeon didn’t just one day wake up with a doctors degree and making $350K a year.
He worked his butt off for 4 years in high school to get good grades to get into a good college.

He then worked his butt off for 4 years in college to get into a good med school.

He then worked 4 years in med school so that he could go on to school to become a specialist.

He then spent 2 more years studying to be a specialist.

He then spent 4 years as an intern getting the worst shifts and the worst cases. All for little pay.

While he went to college and med school, you were working a job earning money, while he had to study.

His 10 year education cost $40k a year, or $400,000.

14 years of med school and internship and $400,000 in school bills. And he’s “LUCKY”

Tell him how “lucky” he is when he’s prepping for surgery at 5 am.
Tell him how “lucky” he is when he’s doing his 6th surgery at 9 pm the same day.
Tell him how “lucky” he is when he’s doing follow up visits on all his patients before he goes into his office for the day, or after he’s been in the office for the day.
Tell him how “lucky” he is, when after he finally eats dinner, he reads medical journals to keep up on the latest break throughs or procedures.

The only thing lucky for him, is if you walk into his office, and don’t try to sue him for malpractice.

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What this break down misses is the other type of taxation, corporate taxation.

By that I don’t mean the taxation of corporations, what I mean is that everyone who works for a company, even a small one, gives up a significant portion of their earnings to kick it up the chain to the salary of their superiors. Examples of this are all around from the paralegal that bills out at $200 per hour but takes home more like $20 per hour in salary to the sales person who generates $1000 in margin per day but takes home more like $100.

Sure some of that money goes to overhead, but a lot of it also goes to padding the paychecks of the very rich. For example at a big law firm partners often make several million in profit, most of which is derived not from their hours, but from taking a 50-80% cut of the after overhead earnings of those below them in the chain. Does anyone really believe billionaires made their billions alone? Would Bill Gates be a billionaire without the millions of employees Microsoft has had over the years making all the products they sell? Would the partner at the law firm be making millions if not for taking 80% of what associates and paralegals bill out?

Nobody is rich in a vacuum, the very rich are very rich because they take value out of the paychecks of the middle class. With many CEOs making 360 times the salary of the average worker at their companies (the ones actually generating and selling the products) there is a lot of informal corporate taxation going on in the other direction. This isn’t to say everyone should make the same, but it’s certainly not unreasonable that those who take income from multiple workers below them pay a higher percentage of that income back in taxes which go to services which benefit everyone.

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Rick Reply:
November 1st, 2011 at 3:06 am

Edward, the answer is simple, if you do not want to work for that person, then don’t. Simply start your own business and you can keep all the profits you make. Every one in this country has basically the same opportunity to start a business the same as anyone else. I started a business at aged 20, and worked at it for 37 years, and ofter in the first 10 years i thought i might not make it. but long hours and hard work finally paid off and I was able to make a profit There were many years that i made less than my friends were making working in factories.There was one year where I actually lost money and did not earn a penny. Finally I stayed at it long enough to really make good money in the past 10 years. Most people will not be successful, and not because they are not smart enough or willing to work hard enough,(you will work twice as hard when the profit is yours) they will not be successful because they will not take the first step.

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david Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 7:01 pm

Exactly Rick,
The employee bares no risk, therefore his reward is less. I cannot expect to buy a stock with no risk potential and expect to triple my money. Employees cannot expect to bear no risk but make what the risk bearer makes.

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Phil Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 6:12 am

Wow very nicely said. Edward. I’m not upset with anyone in the top 1% if they earned it. It’s the CEO’s who take bailout money because they are incompitant or lazy. They feel entitled because their daddy or grandaddy worked hard, or they knew someone. It’s often not what you know but who you know. It’s these greedy, ruthless bastards that break the law and get away with it. Those are the entitled ones. Just what the hell does “to big to fail” mean. Russia was to big to fail, but fail it did and now Russia and the world is a better place.

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@Phil
So the guy that makes my hamburger should be able to afford the same things as the guy that designs the surgical equipment needed for heart transplants? People need to live within their means, If you want nicer things then go get a education and get a job that you are qualified for and you can have those same things, until then be thankful that you live in a country that allows you to have those choices. If someone wants to be a burger flipper then they need to know that they will have to live the lifestyle of a burger flipper!

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Josh Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 2:32 pm

Who said mcdonalds workers need to be paid the same as engineers? Nobody; you increase taxes using a progressive tax system, lets say start at $30,000/year with a 4% tax, and gradually increase by 0.1% for every $1000 more you make annually; that burger flipper still won’t bring home net anywhere near what that $250k+/year engineer brings home net. (with that math, the engineer pays an effective 26% tax, and thus brings home $185k that year net. Obviously you’d either cap the percentage at some point, or slow the increase from every $1000 to every $10k or $20k so the progressive system doesn’t get out of hand, but that would be a much more fair way of keeping revenue flowing for the IRS without imbalancing personal income. Then take away all credits, deductions, etc. Income = all money you make, no matter the source or where you live; if the money is made in the US, it is taxed. period.

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Phill2 Reply:
November 13th, 2011 at 5:33 pm

All of us working hard 50 to 60 hours a week to have a good life should give up and take a 35 hour a week job, RIGHT? We will all stop paying taxes like the 47%. Then nobody will be paying taxes. Then we are all equal. No more government handouts. Just think how the country will be then. I can spend more time on the couch playing video games. I kind of like that idea. I’m getting tired of idiots (aka Democrats) telling me they want more of my money to give to those that aren’t interested in earning their way through life.

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$7.35 x 8hr day = $58.8/day
$58.8/day x 20 days (approx work days in a month) = $1176/month

Not bad for working a minimum wage full time job with your weekends off.

If you got a raise to $10… $1600/month.

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The top 25. Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 6:42 am

It’s not bad if you are a teenager. It’s horrible if you are out of work because you plant closed and they are the only ones hiring.

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yeaaaa Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 11:22 am

Do you want to move out of your mommies house???? By the sound of it you don’t. You can’t afford to move out making that much money

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Josh Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 2:25 pm

Don’t forget, the government needs their 20%, take away $235 of that $1176, or $320 of that $1600….That’s a lot of money when you’re thinking about budgeting necessities. Also don’t forget that most states require an income tax of their own….and then there’s also sales tax in most states….then add on taxes for gas or other commodities the states decide to add on tax for…..

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zeus omally Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 4:29 pm

Andrew,
First of all, you may be forgetting that many people who make minimum wage don’t work 40 hours a week. In fact, many companies do everything they can to ensure their minimum-wage employees don’t ever work 40 hours ’cause it is one of the conditions for an employee to receive retirement and health benefits.
Secondly, @1176 a month a person can barely afford to feed themselves. I can’t imagine how difficult it would be to earn $1176 a month and still be able to pay for gas, transportation, healthy food, rent, utilities, phone etc and still have any money left over to enjoy much of anything in life. I know people who make this kind of money, and I am not saying that I feel bad for them in all cases, but I certainly don’t begrudge them anything at those kind of wages.

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Andrew Reply:
October 26th, 2011 at 11:02 pm

I agree entirely. $1176/month is a tough way to live once you include taxes and prices of gas, rent, healthy food, etc. And, if your employer doesn’t allow for 40 hours, one would have to work less hours than that. Most folks who are in that situation are likely to take on other job and work weekends to make ends meet. But, wouldn’t that be an incentive to try to get that higher wage? Or, work extra hard to maybe get promoted or find different employment? I understand there are always limiting factors, but I think in many instances there is the opportunity to get out of those circumstances.

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Steven Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 7:07 pm

The thing about being low wage-employed, especially doubly or triply so, is that you neither have the luxury of time, or funds to make a concerted effort to search. In most every application, you are asked to consent to having your current employer contacted. In most low wage situations, if it is suspected you are looking elsewhere, you are simply let go. If you are living paycheck to paycheck, any laps, for any reason, is instantly disastrous. This is, as stated, if you should even have the time and energy to make the kind of concerted effort required to land a job. You must also consider that, for family structures, time away from employment is precious, and we shouldn’t be asking mothers and fathers to make strangers of themselves for the sake of financial survival.

Note that the top 1% makes 20% of the income, so paying 39% of the income taxes does not look as disproportionate as you suggest. Also, the bottom earners still pay a lot of state and local taxes, so their overall share of the total tax burden is far higher than zero. Nonetheless, being in the top 1% myself, I do not feel very rich, and I feel that the tax bite is very high. We need to get tough on entitlements, which are going to bankrupt our country unless our leaders can take the brave actions that are needed, like Chris Christie did in NJ. We need to overhaul the tax code and probably should be taxing energy consumption more and income less so as to encourage employment while reducing our overall consumption of energy and hence our need to import oil from hostile countries. Higher gas prices would be tough on small businesses, so maybe there needs to be a subsidy to switch to cheaper natgas for trucks.

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Edward Reply:
October 31st, 2011 at 10:07 am

If you want someone to blame for your high effective rate of taxation (which isn’t really that high internationally) it is less “welfare queens” and more a system in which actually working for a living is disincentivised. You’re right about the bite of taxes if you’re a high wage worker (say lawyer, doctor, CFO at a small company). You’re easy to track so you’ll probably be paying close to 30% in income tax, 6% in payroll tax, 8% in state tax, 1-2% in unemployment fund taxes plus sales tax, fees and all the rest. Heaven help you if you’re a small business owner earning a few hundred k and eat self employment taxes too, it’s not hard to go above 50% of earned income if you’re a hard working small business owner in the 130k+ range.

On the other hand you have rich people who are not high wage workers. Who didn’t who spent decades of blood, sweat and tears getting either themselves or their small business into a position to have the enviable problem of a 400k paycheck. They are the “investor” class who pay 15% on most of their income since buying and selling stock and letting everyone else do the real work in society is somehow privileged over doing the actual work that makes that stock rise. Not only is there a much lower income tax, but of course payroll taxes, unemployment taxes and all the rest fall away too. This isn’t even getting into tax dodges like “like kind” exchanges which can let you buy and sell investments with literally 0 tax liability year to year or carrying forward losses to offset taxes on gains.

I saw Warren Buffet and Bill Gates talk and Buffet mentioned that, with his investments and portfolio he could literally defer any and all taxes until after he died (he said he wouldn’t for moral reasons, but a lot aren’t as moral as buffet up in the stratosphere). The world’s richest man (at the time) could literally pay nothing in taxes for a decade or more in our current system while a manhattan lawyer who grinded it out for 20 years of school and 10 years of 80 hour weeks eats a 50% effective rate.

That’s where HENRY (high earnings not rich yet) comes from, the teeming masses of strivers who do actually pay a lot of taxes. The almost rich who subsidize the super rich investor class. Honestly noone should be out more forcefully against the wall street plutocracy then the high income worker since nobody gets screwed over more in favor of Wall Street types then them.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 31st, 2011 at 11:01 am

Bravo and well said!

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It’s always the slackers who feel social justice is the cure to their ills. Even if that were true, they’d still want more.

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Numbers are a funny thing, if you look at the numbers by each group.
1% is 20% of total earnings and pays 38% of the taxes(as stated above)(Effective Tax=23.3%)
2-5% is 14.7% of total earning and pays 20.7% of the total taxes. (ET=17.2%)
6-10% is 11% of total earnings and pays 11.2% of the total taxes.(ET=12.4%)
11-25% is 21.6% of earnings and pays 16.4% of the total taxes. (ET=9.3%)
26-50% is 19.9% and pays 11.0% of the total taxes. (ET=6.7%)
51-100% is 12.8% and pays 2.7% of the total taxes. (ET=2.6%)
So really the only groups that pay more in taxes relative to total earnings are the top 5%. Instead of just making the bottom 50% pay there “Share” it really should be the bottom 89%.
So to make everyone pay their fair share (aka flat tax) the tax would need to be 12.4% and taxes would need to be raised on the bottom 89% and for the best part of all this the top 5% get a tax break. I wonder why the leaders of the republican party like the idea of a flat tax? What is even better is that they have convinced middle income republicans that this is a good idea while it in fact it will screw themselves over with a tax increase.

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freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 11:20 am

Thats the beauty of being fair. AT least the bottom feeders will actually pay in instead of sucking…sucking..sucking

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Ryan N. Reply:
November 10th, 2011 at 12:08 am

Yeah man, those folks making $22k a year are living high on the hog with that break on taxes.

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freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 11:23 am

Its the people that make 33-60k that suffer the most as they appear to be in that area that gets kicked all the time. I am for helping that group and everyone else pay their fair share

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You fail to recognize that the bottom 50% are working to pay for the basic necessities and that adding $43 a month to expenses eats into those necessities, while adding $100 or $500 a month (or whatever) to the top 1% or 5% doesn’t cramp them at all. You want equality? First make health care available to everyone regardless of income. All those other top 10 countries do that. Your concept of equality is perverted.

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Netminder13 Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

As a first responder I know first hand that health care is available to everyone even those who can’t pay.

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Chuck Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 2:54 pm

Duh. It’s the cost of health care who can’t afford it (emergency rooms etc. due to lack of an efficient health care system) that is driving the the cost of health care to impossible heights.. You don’t get it do you.

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Netminder13 Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 3:33 pm

Chuck it’s you who don’t get it. Obamacare isn’t going to fix it. All that will do is make people with jobs like me pay more for what is already in place. Obamacare is not going to change how things are run only how it’s paid for. I already pay enough for healthcare and don’t want to pay more

Edward Reply:
October 31st, 2011 at 10:49 am

Really the basic problem with healthcare isn’t the Insurance Companies, Obamacare or any of the rest of it. Frankly it’s that specialist doctors make many hundreds of thousands of dollars (even hundreds of thousands more then doctors in the rest of the first world) without actually producing any economic value.

If the United States was a country medical care would be part of “overhead” in that it does provide a benefit but doesn’t generate any revenue for the rest of society in the way invention or manufacturing does. Sure living to 85 instead of 80 is good, but it’s not goods. We can’t export it or sell it, and at the end of the day an economy or company that spends huge amounts on overhead is broke.

Doctors salaries should be brought in line with other similarly educated government workers like judges or DAs which means a comfortable living of 100k or so, but not an extravagant 500k living many specialists make. That of the top 14 best paid jobs in the US a majority are types of medical specialties and the only one from business is CEO, there’s a problem. We need more creating things and less overhead.

Really the basic problem with healthcare isn’t the Insurance Companies, Obamacare or any of the rest of it. Frankly it’s that specialist doctors make many hundreds of thousands of dollars (even hundreds of thousands more then doctors in the rest of the first world) without actually producing any economic value.

If the United States was a country medical care would be part of “overhead” in that it does provide a benefit but doesn’t generate any revenue for the rest of society in the way invention or manufacturing does. Sure living to 85 instead of 80 is good, but it’s not goods. We can’t export it or sell it, and at the end of the day an economy or company that spends huge amounts on overhead is broke.

Doctors salaries should be brought in line with other similarly educated government workers like judges or DAs which means a comfortable living of 100k or so, but not an extravagant 500k living many specialists make. That of the top 14 best paid jobs in the US a majority are types of medical specialties and the only one from business is CEO, there’s a problem. We need more creating things and less overhead.

It isn’t about Obamacare, it’s about cost controls. The most effective one, frankly, would be making hospitals a municipal utility controlled at the local level like the police and fire department with a similar hierarchy (mayor appointed medical commissioner) and a similar wage scale (where doctors top out in the 150k range). They could be paid for through a combination of local, state and federal taxes with an emphasis on the local (just like police departments) and, again like the police, people could use them on an as needed basis without worrying about back breaking medical fees or any sort of red tape. The idea that a basic municipal service that is life or death should be a business enterprise charging whatever it wants is frankly foolish. Can you imagine having to come up with 10k or provide insurance to the police if you call while you’re being robbed or your son was murdered? Why then, do we accept that with doctors?

Take it from someone who is in the top 1% in America. If you put the TIME, EFFORT, and ENERGY into creating your income, you also would be here with me. Whether it be education or business, if you do nothing but go to work and get your paycheck, well that’s all you get. What do you think, it’s pure luck??? Get off your ass and do it. You do nothing, you get nothing. Why should I pay more in taxes to drive on the same road as you all that are not paying what I do??? Only in America do we punish the ones that put forth the effort. Oh…..I got to the top with having kids also.

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Erin Reply:
October 30th, 2011 at 9:11 am

“like”

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Ryan N. Reply:
November 10th, 2011 at 12:09 am

Yeah, no possible way you had any advantages.

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I worked minimum wage jobs for the first 4 years I was married. I jumped from one job to another for 16 years acquiring new skills at each one. When I was 38, I borrowed on my house and started my own business. Now, after 6 years in business, I still work 60-80 hours a week. The thing is, this hard work is what got me to the 5%. Anyone can do it, it just takes drive and determination. I am a high school drop-out. So stop crying about your situation and change it.

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Phil Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 6:44 am

60 to 80 hours weeks? I feel sorry for you. get a life. I worked 60 hour weeks as a manager bringing in about 30k. I hardly saw my family. tons of stress, etc. If you want to trade your life for money go a head. you deserve double what I make. To be in the top 1% you need to make over a million a year. 30 times what I earn. If your in the top 5% you are NOT an average guy as your name suggests. Most small businesses fail. It also takes timing and a bit of luck to get where you are. most don’t make it. I don’t know what your business is but I bet your employees aren’t even in the top 50% and I’m sure they work hard too. Go ahead and tax the poor. watch the crime rate and poverty sore. Just buy more security systems. I feel sorry for you. I’m sorry Steve Jobs is dead, but I’m glad he is gone. I’d bet some people will feel the same when your time comes.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 7:21 am

I feel sorry for you that you only make 30K and had to work 60 hours and never saw your family. Look at it this way, someone has to do your job, so it might as well be you. Thx

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

Here’s your reply:

“I didn’t know hot dog stand owners made so much as to put them in the top 5%
I work at a Vocational Rehab in mid management earning less than 30k. I help
disabled people learn the skills to get off of social security and into the work force..
My career is rewarding in no-monetary ways, but I still have bills to pay. We
wouldn’t need to raise taxes on anyone if our government would stop pissing
away hundreds of billions of dollars in Iraq, Afghanistan and maybe next Iran.
Unjust wars that are costing lives and money just to make our country less
secure. Oh but wait, then companies such as General Electric couldn’t rake in
billions on defense contracts. War is big business and you need a war to make
the big bucks. We don’t need to raise any ones taxes if we got big corporations
out of our government, stopped the fear mongering bullshit and gave control
back to the people where it belongs! That’s what ows is all about.”

OK, first-take your lithium.

Next, in my area there is a man who owns approximately 26 VERY SUCCESSFUL hot dog stands. I don’t know his personal finances, but I’d say he’s in the top 5%.

Maybe your job is rewarding. And thats fine. In fact I applaud you for having a job that you enjoy.

But here’s the reality.

Our deficit this year is $1.6 TRILLION. There are approximately 310 million people in the US.
Divide 310 million into $1.6 TRILLION. Thats roughly $5,000 for every man woman and child. Thats just the deficit. That doesn’t include government spending that is covered by taxes.

Here’s a little more. Current US national debt is approximately $15 TRILLION.
Thats over $45,000 for every man, woman and child.

You said:
“We
wouldn’t need to raise taxes on anyone if our government would stop pissing
away hundreds of billions of dollars in Iraq, Afghanistan and maybe next Iran.
”

The problem is government spending is out of control. Whether from the wars or other issues. The bailouts were a joke (except no one is laughing, except the bailout recipients and the politicians). You mention 100′s of billions the government is spending on the wars. Actual current numbers are about $160 BILLION per year. About 1/10 of the current deficit.
So in the grand scheme of things, your little rant about the cost of the wars is minor, when compared to overall spending.
This has nothing to do with whether the wars are just or unjust, or views about the war. Just cold hard facts.
Here’s another cold hard fact.
Look up the Forbes top 400 in the US. You will find there are 403 Billionaires in the US. Add up all their estimated wealth.
What do you get?
Answer: About $1.3 TRILLION

So what does this mean?

If you were able to confiscate the entire net worth of all the US billionaires, it would not match THIS YEARS deficit (even without the cost of the wars).

Funny thing, if you were able to confiscate the wealth of all the billionaires, just to offset THIS YEARS deficit, there wouldn’t be anything for next years deficit. You see wealth is not income.

My point being, raising taxes won’t change the problem. There isn’t enough income or wealth source to sustain our current spending. Even for the next few years.

You rail against the corporations. Is some of that founded? Yes.
But by and large, the so called “greed” of corporations is exagerated and a boogie man.

Here’s some tax numbers for you.
42% of federal government tax revenues come from personal income taxes. Thats you and me.
40% are FICA taxes.
9% are corporate taxes.
9% are miscellaneous taxes.

Corporate taxes make up only 9% of total taxes collected.
Corporate tax rates are 35%
US corporate tax rates are the highest of all the industrialized nations.

Point being, raising corporate taxes won’t solve anything, either.

You said:
“We don’t need to raise any ones taxes if we got big corporations
out of our government, stopped the fear mongering bullshit and gave control
back to the people where it belongs! That’s what ows is all about.”

You and OWS are a little slow on the uptake.
The Tea Party marched on DC 3 years ago, complaing about the bailouts and government spending and the raising of taxes.

The difference being, our march on Washington was about 1.6 million people vs a few hundred at this rally or a couple of hundred at that rally.
We didn’t s#!t on cop cars or in parks.
We left DC as clean as we found it.
We didn’t push cops or cause problems. We peacefully demonstrated…then left.
Most of us had jobs. We gathered on Saturday, and went back to work on Monday. OWS…???
We demonstarted. We gathered, spoke our piece and left. We didn’t disrupt lives or push people or stop normal activity.
We bathed… Before AND after our demonstration.

Mountn_Man Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:27 pm

Oops, should have been to Phil…Sorry Sam.

Phil Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 3:24 pm

I hope I am repling to mountn man. Actually we agree on a lot. you are right, there isn’t enough wealth to pay the debit. as for the war? 160 billion over 10 years is 1.6 trillion.
Even this would not pay the debt. yes I saw the picture of some guy defacating on a police car and it’s disgusting, but not as disgusting as marine vet Olson getting shot in the head with tear gas. Of course you get a few bads ones in every group, cops or protesters. However I see a lot more of the home videos with police abusing citizens. Yes the tea party moved on and are soon forgotten. At least we can agree that raising taxes will not fix the mess we are in and this mess started long ago and crosses party lines.

Mountn_Man Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 1:04 am

“I don’t know what your business is but I bet your employees aren’t even in the top 50% and I’m sure they work hard too.”

There is a reason why his employees “MIGHT” not be in the top 50%. First, we have no idea what his business is. If he owns a hot dog stand his workers aren’t going to be paid much. Its not his responsibility to pay them more than they’re worth.

Second HE IS the one working 60-80 hrs a week. If they aren’t, its they’re fault they aren’t in the top 50%.

There is something else to look at as to why he’s in the top 5%. He’s the one invested. If he’s working 60-80 hrs, his labor alone should be making him $100k or more a year. Then if he has $250k invested, that ought to make him another $25k minimum.

As an employer he must pay, out of his own pocket, 7.65% of his employees income, in FICA taxes. So for EVERY employee who makes $40k, as an employer he must pay $2,860. Add to that unemployment taxes. (In Illinois, its 6% on the first $12,500 for construction workers, thats $750 per person, if there is a claim it goes up)

Lets talk about insurance just to operate his business.

The owner is the one working 60-80 hrs a week. Has HIS money invested in the business. Pays taxes out of his pocket for having employees. We have no idea what the employees might do, but automatically, according to you, should be in the top 50%.

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Phil Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 10:21 am

I didn’t know hot dog stand owners made so much as to put them in the top 5%
I work at a Vocational Rehab in mid management earning less than 30k. I help
disabled people learn the skills to get off of social security and into the work force..
My career is rewarding in no-monetary ways, but I still have bills to pay. We
wouldn’t need to raise taxes on anyone if our government would stop pissing
away hundreds of billions of dollars in Iraq, Afghanistan and maybe next Iran.
Unjust wars that are costing lives and money just to make our country less
secure. Oh but wait, then companies such as General Electric couldn’t rake in
billions on defense contracts. War is big business and you need a war to make
the big bucks. We don’t need to raise any ones taxes if we got big corporations
out of our government, stopped the fear mongering bullshit and gave control
back to the people where it belongs! That’s what ows is all about.

Mountn_Man Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 1:19 am

” If your in the top 5% you are NOT an average guy as your name suggests. ”

“I don’t know what your business is but I bet your employees aren’t even in the top 50% and I’m sure they work hard too.”

“I’m sorry Steve Jobs is dead, but I’m glad he is gone. I’d bet some people will feel the same when your time comes.”

You’re pissed off this guy isn’t average.
The average guy doesn’t work 60-80 hrs a week.
The average guy doesn’t invest money into his own business.
The average business doesn’t succeed.
The average person doesn’t make the top 5% of the income earners.

You know nothing about him, but you know his employees don’t make it into the top 50%.

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:28 pm

See my post to Sam, it was meant to you.

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Phil Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 4:03 pm

I’d like to add that anonymous and groups like that are criminals and NOT
affiliated with OWS. OWS is a peaceful demonstration.

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Steven Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 7:18 pm

Unfortunately the majority of those, as we are now certainly seeing amidst this economic crisis of ours, did much the same as you claim (borrowed on their home to start a business), and lost it all in the process. Most will not do as you have done, not out of intrinsic laziness or lack of want, but because we make the endeavor too risky. A few strike gold, while many more end up living a nightmare. And though Steve Jobs’ death is not uplifting to me, many, MANY people die from cancer each year who haven’t abused labor, and aren’t globally mourned, though their deaths might very well have left an already financially strained family in even more dire straits.

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Steven Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 7:18 pm

“Unfortunately the majority of those WHO”…

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I would like to challenge the author to spend 90 days doing what he or she proposes. If it’s easy and (s)he is of superior intellect and work ethic, it shouldn’t be a problem, right? We could make a reality show.

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Who said it had to be fair? Fair is in the eye of the beholder. The rich should not peanalized for being rich. Oh, by the way, the Greeks don’t like rich people and OH, they are about to loose their country!

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Steven Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 7:21 pm

I think the world is about to see who loses what. And I’d be willing to wager that folks such as yourself are not going to be pleased with the results. We’re already seeing that the enacted austerity measures are not only not working, but making the problem worse. As they scramble for a new plan (deeper austerity, of course), I can’t help but anticipate an overall shift towards a more direct democracy, by force if need be, from the very country that invented it.

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Phil Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 10:41 am

The greeks are about to lose their country because they can no longer pay the intrest on the
loans the economic hit men forced on them. If the economic hit men fail to force countries to take loans so big they could never repay them, such as Saddam Hussein, then we send in the Jackles to overthrow the leaders or kill them. If that fails then we go to war. The G20 is now forcing Greece to take more loans only to delay the inevitable bankruptcy of that country. Of course some or all of that loan will be forgiven in exchange for allowing US military bases to be placed in their country.

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Seems like you are trying to buttress your cause and building a case by using skewed or false numbers.
Please see what the CBO has to say about after tax earnings by top 1% etc. cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3220
Now I suggest you re write your article with the correct figures.

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Mike Marcus Reply:
October 27th, 2011 at 3:55 pm

Sorry, I meant to point out in my above post that the CBO figures show the top 1% earning, (after taxes) 1.3 million, not 380K. and that from 2007. I’m sure it has risen greatly since then.

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Isn’t it odd that many of those listed as doing just as well, if not better than the U.S., happen to have many of those evil socialist safety nets that we are meant to despise and fear as the harbingers of every imaginable nightmare? Something to consider.

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For me It’s not so much about jobs or taxes. Occupy is about getting corperatations out of our goverment and give it back to the people

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I hate when these things don’t discuss expendable income. You can’t calculate the tax burden on any group without comparing the income they have left over after taxes. That’s the true impact of taxation. If you’re living paycheck to paycheck and you’re paying out 20 to 30% in income tax than you’re carrying a heavier tax burden. If your expendable income allows you to buy yachts, Rose Royces, and take 50k plus vacations then 40 or even 50% isn’t much of a tax burden. The money you have left after taxes is the impact of taxation, not the percentage that you pay. Even the upper middle class would experience a heavier burden, due to limiting savings. While this class can afford some of the more expensive things life has to offer they have to do so with great consideration and through saving as well as planning. So they have to take taxes into account before making these plans; therefore the tax burden falls heavier on them than it does the super rich. If you want the real story about taxes you have to look up information that compares expendable income.

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Maj1216 Reply:
October 30th, 2011 at 2:33 pm

Thank you, I’ve been waiting to see a post touch on the Net rather than Gross income.

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Really your arguement is for equality that someone making $380K/year should only have to pay $76K in taxes (20%) So therefore if I make $15K/year I should pay $3K? Lets see so that leaves you $304K after taxes and me $12k. This is ridicioulious you should feel thankful to live in a country where you can be so wealthy, plus you are getting value from these people making $15K/year. You said it yourself if everyone makes a million dollars your million dollars isn’t worth so much as you will have to pay more for everything to support your wages. I have no problem covering the bottom 50% of workers some lazy drunk is the poster child but most of these people work much harder than the top 1% and life has handed them a bad hand.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 28th, 2011 at 10:58 am

I think a flat tax should kick in AFTER a certain minimum threshold. Perhaps that’s $20,000 a year, or $33,000 a year where the 50/50 split is. You still have a problem with that? EVERYBODY needs to pitch in.

http://www.financialsamurai.com/2011/10/26/bar-stool-economics-show-why-a-progressive-tax-is-wrong/

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Rush stated that people making $50,000 are in the top 10% of wage earners. Do you have a source that supports that data? Thank you in advance.

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Ryan N. Reply:
November 10th, 2011 at 12:12 am

Why would you get your information from that person?

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Life is all about choices and accepting the inevitable consequences of these choices (both bad and good). The “choice ” to have children, the “choice” to strive for a good education, the “choice” to have a spouse earning a 2nd income vice being a stay at home parent, the “choice” to not spend more than you earn or the “choice” to do the opposite, the “choice” to tithe you your church (or not), the “Choice” to take expensive vacations, purchase a new car every 2-3 years, or “not” save towards your retirement. All of these “choices” have consequences (both good and bad depending on one’s perspective). I made the “choice” to work hard and now enjoy the benefits of a 5% lifestyle despite only having a high-school education. My wife and I made “choices” to have 3 children, tithe to our church and for her to be a homemaker. Had we made different choices, we’d probably be in the top 1%. The choices we made to put family, children, and church over more income were (in our opinions) best and well worth not being as well off (financially) as we could have been. That being the case, I harbor no animosity towards another couple who followed a parallel life path but with different family “choices” that now enjoy a higher standard of living than I. They made “choices” to sacrifice to get where they are and I made others. Why would I now vilify them and demand that they balance out their bank accounts with mine to cover the consequences of the decisions I, as an adult, made? I’ve known many (what Americans call) poor people over my life and in almost every circumstance, I can tie their current financial positions to the decisions they’ve made over their lifetimes. I’ve also spent two decades living and working in some of the poorest (and I mean truly poor) places in the world. These people live on 300$ per year not because of bad decisions but due to lack of opportunity. We’ve no such excuses in America where even the poorest of our poor would be in the top 5% on a global scale. As has become all too common in our “entitlement” obsessed society, we just want others to pay the consequences of our poor “choices”.

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Phil Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 10:55 am

Is it your “choice” if the company you work for outsources your job over seas? It’s the rich who feel entitled to do whatever they want to do.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
December 3rd, 2011 at 7:37 am

I agree with this message. It was my choice to get into work at 5:30am and leave at 7:30pm on average everyday for the first two years after college b/c I wanted to learn and build a good foundation.

It is my choice that I love to eat rib-eye steaks and lemon meringue pie, which is why I still don’t have 4-pack abs.

Sometimes, we don’t have a choice. But, I think everybody has a choice to work harder, be better, and get into the top 50% of income earners.

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I noted with interest the person earlier who told the high achiever to “get a life” and that working 60+ hours per week (as he claimed to have done) was somehow wrong. This is a perfect example of someone who made choices but is unwilling to accept the consequences of their decision(s). Person (A) chose to put quality family time over working extended hours. This is a respectable and noble decision and I support his right to make it. Person (B) chose to sacrifice some family time to acquire a greater number of material possessions and/or a larger bank account. There is nothing wrong with this choice either and I support his right to make it. Why is person (B) now a villain in person (A)’s mind and why should he (Person (B)) now be forced to share the fruits of his labor with the person (A)s of this world? I’m assuming both were adults when these decisions were made. I assume both were in full possession of their mental facilities when they made these choices. I assume both “knew” the consequences of these divergent choices. This mindset truly baffles me.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 28th, 2011 at 11:41 pm

Welcome to my world Pete! Are there really people who work 40 hours a week and COMPLAIN why they can’t get ahead? WT hell.

http://www.financialsamurai.com/2011/08/31/are-there-really-people-who-only-work-40-hours-a-week-or-less/

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Maj1216 Reply:
October 30th, 2011 at 2:38 pm

Because it’s the B people claiming that parenting has fallen to the way side, when talking about poor people, but they can’t see that they, themselves, are not home enough to offer the time to their own children, whom will grow up thinking ‘daddy loved his job and material possessions more than me’. I’ve known people whom had parents whom did this, and they are far from being well adjusted adults because of it. Most have stated they would have preferred to have grown up in a family like those of the friends whom had less money, less material things, because the overall family unit was so much loving, and you could feel it as soon as you walked into their home. It’s not about money, when it comes to family, it is about nurture.

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Maj1216 Reply:
October 30th, 2011 at 2:39 pm

so much ‘more’ loving, sorry hate when my brain is quicker than my hand

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Phil Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:02 am

Amen Welcome to MY world Mr. Financial Samurai MY family is happy, healthy, but struggling. When I was a child, I missed my father a lot because he worked so much overtime. You can’t replace time with money. Again I feel sorry for you Mr. Financial Samurai.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:04 am

I guess we both feel sorry for each other. Best of luck to you!

my first reaction to this article is that it’s bullshit. my second reaction is that i need to confirm your statistics. my third is that there is an agenda to convince me that socialism is the right of all ways. what i think is that we are a corporation of people that need to learn balance…..and our government, because of it segregation amongst its state politics, is failing to represent the people as a whole. i work damn hard, i should be able to make a living – a real living regardless of where i am. no i don’t want socialistic society. i want equality – justice – and freedom. how does that fit in to this entire perspective of label?

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 28th, 2011 at 11:38 pm

Feel free to elaborate why the article is bullshit. Equality is a flat tax after a certain poverty level is it not? thx

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its all moot anyway….. those with their hands out have finally figured out how to vote themselves the money out of the treasury…. hope and (spare) change. What I don’t understand is how non achievers can have the gall to actually think its somehow owed to them like they earned it… by what? Being born? Well therein lies the fix…. instead of abortion vs. continued lifetime care costs down the road, lets just avoid both. Every responsible parent out there should be clamoring for some kind of parental reform where you need to show enough competence to even have a child much less not have it instantly be born into neglectful/abusive conditions in a country where 5 children under 5 are abused to death every day and infants are occasionally placed in a microwave. Don’t ask me how, I don’t have all the answers but until then, if you want fair, then fair is fair and a flat tax is just that…. be careful what you wish for. Great post btw FS

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We all live on the planet together. We should conserve and share its resources. The distribution of wealth in OUR world is disgusting, something has to be done. We need to form a new system that is more fair and more sustainable.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 29th, 2011 at 8:07 pm

Did you earn it? If not, do you still deserve it?

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Brooke Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 8:17 am

When I started in my industry I went 6 months without a paycheck. I lost my apartment, moved onto my mom’s couch and dug my heals in. Then I learned how to do my job WELL and did very well at it. One thing that I would marvel at in my office was that my colleages would laugh at me for the distances I would go to earn so little money. Well, while they were sitting in their offices earning NOTHING, I was driving 150 miles one way to earn $100 net. I would even go that far or more to net $20!!! They just didn’t get it. However, every month consistantly I had top production and that top production allowed me to leave that office and open one of my own. Should I have “shared” my commission with the others in the office because they didn’t have any? They didn’t want to get in the car! They didn’t want to leave their bubble for such a small amount. It just wasn’t worth their time.

Also, in school I had a piddly 3.2 GPA but there were plenty of kids/young adults that had a lower GPA. Should I have “shared” my grades? Is it FAIR that I understood something better than the guy/girl next to me in class while we both put in the same amount of time/effort? Is it FAIR that I put in more effort TO understand that subject than someone else?

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Financial Samurai Reply:
December 3rd, 2011 at 7:39 am

Love it Brooke! Well done! Let them laugh all they want. You’re out there busting your butt to do something to make your situation better.

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This does not take into account that within the top 1 % there is a huge range. The 99th percentile earner at 380 K is probably paying taxes at the top tax rate with their avg tax rate a bit lower. But the top 400 starts at income over 109 million and paid an avg tax rate of 18% (2008). So if you are lucky enough to be near the 99th percentile and living comfortably, you are still closer to the bottom than to the top of the income scale, and those above you, who make more than your lifetime earnings in a single year are paying less tax than you. Our capital gains tax system has created an inverted tax scale with ultra rich paying less tax.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 29th, 2011 at 8:04 pm

Very well said Robert. I hope people realize this. $380,000 is a dime a dozen in big cities and mostly are wage workers.

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Maj1216 Reply:
October 30th, 2011 at 2:48 pm

It is truly those 400 income earners that the OWS and most Americans are upset over, somehow they think the 1% is those people, only. I, until, looking around, thought that the 400 was all that was considered to be in the 1%, as well.
However, those that are of what I’d consider poverty level (less than 1 or more family hh – $20,000/annually) should not be considered to be those with their hand outs, most of them don’t qualify for any ‘entitlements’, as everyone assumes. Until the HCR is in place, unless you’re what the Government considers poverty level. If you don’t fall within their guidelines, you don’t qualify, and if you do, it’s very minimal. At times, they may offer $10-$20 worth of aid for food, if you’re close to the cut off, or they may put the children on medical assistance, while not providing it to the parent(s). It’s not as cut and dry as people tend to think.

Supposedly, once the HCR is in place Medical Assistance will become available to those that fall within 300% above the guidelines. Until then, most are living only off of their small paychecks.

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Here’s an interesting article…
http://www.daveramsey.com/article/dear-occupy-wall-street/lifeandmoney_economy/

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What jumps out at me is that the column about the group share of tax payments does not add up to 100%! That means funny business as far as I am concerned. If the IRS really did make this table, the funny business may have originated there. In any case, we need better statistics before we make any policy decisions.

I also question the validity of the column on effective rates of tax payments based upon my own experience. I actually pay the top rate that is reported (23.27%) although I am not even close to earning the amount cited for the top 5%, to say nothing of the top 1% for which this rate is quoted. Something is seriously wrong with this information, folks.

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I also would like to know from where did Rush base his claim saying that earning 50,000 dlls puts you in the upper 10% of wage earners. I have been looking at wikipedia and 15% would be above 100,000 dlls.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 30th, 2011 at 7:50 pm

How can $50K put you in the top 10% of wage earners, when the median household income is around $50-$55K?

Doesn’t make sense. My chart is what it is. Top 10% at $113,000 sounds about right.

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You sound like a real asshole. Plus, doesn’t it occur to you that, while one might make more money in SF than other places, you also pay about 50% in housing and other cost of living expenses. You are just plain dumb. Plus, it’s ridiculous to think that everyone should be working 60 hours a week, when 40 hours is the standard work week in all industries, and other countries get along just fine with even less than that. Fact is that the 40 hours is just in place to control people and keep them from looking up to see that they are being exploited AND NO ONE does even 40 hours of work a week. it’s just not possible to sustain that long. check out the water cooler, lunch and break area, the use of the Internet for non work purposes and email, and you can see that at most 4 hours of work is actually done a day and the rest wasted because we just HAVE to be there. You are an idiot. AND, a whiner. You sound pissed off that you have to work so much, also.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 30th, 2011 at 11:06 pm

Fight for equality Stacie. Discrimination is wrong. You’ve got to fix your entitlement attitude, otherwise you’ll never get ahead.

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Mike Reply:
October 31st, 2011 at 1:19 pm

Stacie,

I don’t take quite as strict of view as the author (I believe that you shouldn’t tax poverty level earners) but we all have our opinions which are based on our situation. No one way is right for everyone. But I do firmly agree with his point of working more than your standard 40 hour week if you want to get ahead. He didn’t say you should be FORCED to work more than 40 hours…. just don’t complain that the person who does sacrifice a part of their life by working harder than most needs to pay more taxes than they do. I was a high school dropout making minimum wage with no help from anyone and it sucked! I learned early on that if I worked harder than anyone around me I would then be rewarded by raises that were way above average. I kept that going for a while and made it up into the top 5%. Two years ago, with the worst economy I’ve seen in my lifetime, I decided that I no longer wanted to depend on working for large companies as I didn’t feel secure. I started a business with some other co-workers (cost a lot of time and money). Business is good an I’m almost earning what I did before but now have a chance to be in the top 3% in the next 2-3 years. I WORKED MY A$$ OFF but am now doing it from home so I can always be close to my family. My point is this…. there’s absolutely nothing wrong with working 40 hours a week, taking your 1 hour lunch, taking your 10 minute breaks, and clocking out at exactly 5:00. Just don’t tell me that I need to pay more taxes because I’m working hard at 6:00 when you’re sitting on the couch with a beer in your hand.
BTW… in another year I’ll be dropping my hours down to 30 per week so I can enjoy the rewards of all my hard work.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
October 31st, 2011 at 1:52 pm

Since when was making 33k or less poverty? Of course if someone is in poverty, I’m not askig them to pay more or perhaps any federL taxes. But if you are a single person and earning 15-20k+ a year, you should contribute some federal income taxes, even if it is just $25 a month! $0 is not acceptable, especially since we should give more than we take.

Other than that, I congratulate you for your success and understanding that anybody who only works 40 hours a week and complains is completely delusional!

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Mark Webber Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 7:28 pm

You worked your ass off eh and soon you’ll be working 30 hrs a week? Hummmm, sounds like you’ll retire before your 40 hr a week counter part. Probably a lot more in the bank too while your counter part works for another 20 years or so. Who will be sitting on the couch then eh? I’ll bet Mr. 40hrs a week will be wondering why you have such a good life then. You will say you earned it. How, by selling to people like him or hiring people like him. Without those 40 hr people you would have nothing. I suppose you think you don’t owe them anything. You probably feel that you don’t owe Democracy and Freedom anything as well. Well keep you money for yourself like the rich say they want to and see if anything happens to America or Democracy. You get what you pay for. Ever heard that expression? Probably don’t care.

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Mike Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 7:32 am

Mark,

I appreciate the insults. So here’s what I understand from your post:
You believe I’m anti-American and don’t care about democracy or people who work 40 hours a week. Does that about sum it up?

My perspective:
I’m creating those 40 hour a week jobs. The lowest salary in our company is 55k. We provide medical and dental care to all employees at no cost to them. We sell our product to small businesses to better help them. I find it strange that you seem to be against this. Doesn’t this freedom that you throw out there apply to EVERYONE… the freedom for people like myself to be rewarded for working hard and being creative. I think it’s time you come out of the closet. You like to talk about America, Democracy, and Freedom but your opinions better match one that prefers a Socialist government. You state that I probably don’t care but I do pay A LOT in taxes to help our great country. How about you?

And by the way, you’re also wrong that I’ll retire before my 40 hour a week counter part. I enjoy being creative in my field and also enjoy coming to work. I just prefer to spend more time with my family and my hard work is going to allow me to accomplish this.

Mark Webber Reply:
November 8th, 2011 at 1:47 am

My point is simple and should have been easily picked up by someone as creative and out of the closet like yourself. (why you had to infer I was in the closet kind of sets the tone here) Anyone who wants to work for you for 40 hrs I suspect works equally as hard as you do during those 40 hrs. Just because they decide to end work after 40 hrs does not devalue the amount done in those 40 hrs.
You said “Just don’t tell me that I need to pay more taxes because I’m working hard at 6:00 when you’re sitting on the couch with a beer in your hand.” To infer that that there is alcohol involved would be an insult for many for one thing. The other point is that for every employee that you hire increases the companies net worth. Their hard work gains your company and they don’t keep any of that gain except maybe there job itself. The company does gain and if you decide to sell it someday that increase goes into your pocket and the shareholders pocket.
Then you say ” I find it strange that you seem to be against this.” Why would anyone be against this? That is what the free market society is all about. Bully for you and all that you do. I think it is great that you have the initiative and drive to help so many along with helping America. My whole point is that power and wealth comes the responsibility to pay to your great county it’s fair share. The country is owed a debt for providing a free market society where someone like yourself can gain great favour, wealth and social standing. We are indebted to Lady Liberty for not asking more of us. Many so-called free market driven societies are actually driven by fear. Many back door or under the table deals are run in those counties using prostitutes and threats of violence to accomplish their drive for power and wealth. How would you like it if the mob started breathing down your neck forcing your hand to use their inferior materials or to sell at a lower price to specific clients? Complaining in those 3rd world countries to the police could get you killed or worse since so many are corrupt to the highest levels. Paying bribes to city officials is common place. Many end up in prison for not doing as they are told. Pay your taxes and be grateful that you must pay more than before. When Ronald Regan took office he lowered taxes for the wealthy. Be grateful that tax levels don’t go back to that. Consider that you do get what you pay for, your freedom!

One more thing, your hard work creates something that is yours. I can understand this. I have hobbies that help me create something nice, better than it was before and it is mine. Pride comes from that and it is fun. So when you said ” And by the way, you’re also wrong that I’ll retire before my 40 hour a week counter part. I enjoy being creative in my field and also enjoy coming to work.” This just tells me your retirement is being put off by choice. To compare that to your 40 hr/week counterpart is absurd since he/she works to eat and have a family. Ya, you do too but you also work for that 30 hr work week that is out of reach for most of your employees. If they cut back their hours to 30 then they would practically be on the bread line. So congratulations on all the options and rewards, hard work and “creativity” have provided you. You should be grateful enough to pay more for your taxes since you owe more to America than anyone at your company. This is not an insult to you sir. I would hold my head up high and expect respect from others for the role you play in America. I would thank you personally if I worked for you. All your employees are indebted to you and you are indebted to America. Your employees are also indebted to America for not having to work for slave wages which is also something that plagues 3rd world nations. Best of luck in your endeavours.

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Brooke Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 8:06 am

other countries aren’t getting along just fine with less than 40 hours. Or maybe you don’t realize that most of Europe is on fire every other day?

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I don’t really care what the numbers from the government statistics are saying. What I care for is the numbers that I bring to my household, which will definitely affect our lives and my children’s future.

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I am trying to figure out how all these people are claiming that working minimum wage can get you by. Have you ever actually done it? Not all states have a comfy $10 minimum.

I work two minimum wage jobs in NY because no one is hiring. Even minimum wage jobs here are far and few between. I was once told by McDonalds that since I have college experience, I was overqualified(wtf?!) for the job and they wouldn’t hire me. I have had to choose between paying rent or eating. My credit score has plummeted since I haven’t been able to keep up with payments on my student loans.

Jobs are so scarce that I have seen people apply to hundreds of jobs (even mall, minimum wage ones) in their town and surrounding areas and receive no offer for an interview.
Then, when people do manage to get hired, even if people wanted to work 40 and 60 hours a week, not every job is willing to hand that out. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen someone get hired and start working at 30 hours a week, only to have their hours slowly dwindled down to the point it where it would cost them more money in gas than what they actually earn.

Minimum wage in NY: $7.35
40 hours a week: $294
Then cut out for taxes.
Actually earnings: around $200 a week.

That wouldn’t be bad, but this is what most people are experiencing:

Minimum Wage: $7.35
25 hours a week (since thats all they can get): $183.75
Actual earnings: about $135 a week
Actual earnings per month: $540

Add a second job at minimum wage.
But you can only get 15 hours that don’t interfere with your other job: $110.25
Actual earnings: around $90
Per month: $360

Total: $900 per month

Now the breakdown (based on someone living by themselves):
Rent: $595
Utilities: $45
Electric: $50
Food: $100
Gas: $100
TOTAL: $890

Leaving you with an extra $20 a month.
I don’t know about you but that isn’t much to go off of, say for: Car insurance, emergency car repairs, doctors visits (since you don’t get health care or insurance at part time hours). And god help you if you have a child or pet to take care of.

My father would be classified in the “top 10%” bracket of these statistics.
But I vividly remember my family struggling with debt and bills.
I remember having to help my mother scrounge up nickles and dimes to put gas in the gastank. How we couldn’t afford to eat healthy. And how we were always worried about heating the house during the winter.

There is something very wrong with this economy when someone has to break their back working at minimum wage (and even above!) to barely survive while fat cats and corporations get off without paying taxes. And do you know how degrading it feels to work at minimum wage or food service when you busted ass in college and have dreams you can’t pursue? Then tack on the mental and physical exhaustion from working in customer service and it is in no way a “comfortable way of living”.
Fuck minimum wage.
Fuck this backwards economy.
And fuck the 1%.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 1st, 2011 at 2:42 pm

I’m surprised you pay 30% of your income to taxes earning minimum wage. You sure about this?

I don’t think people with minimum wage jobs have cars and pay car insurance. Isn’t that kinda a disconnect?

Why not just start an online business for $20 bucks a year? It costs $12 to get a URL.

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Phil Reply:
November 2nd, 2011 at 5:01 pm

You don’t think people with minimum wage jobs have cars? Did I read that right.
Goes to show you how out of touch you are.

I don’t believe the 30% tax rate for
minimun wage either unless you are using payroll deductions, then it sounds
about right. You should get all or most of your fed taxs back at the end of the
year, but not state, or local taxes, which keep going up because there is less
money coming from the fed.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 2nd, 2011 at 5:33 pm

When I worked minimum wage I didn’t have a car. You know why? Because I could t afford a car! None of my min wage friends had cars too.

How do you afford a car if you earn min wage? I believe one needs to make 10 times the value or the car to justify buying that car. So if you make $20k, the most you should buy is a 2k car. Hence, why bother wasting this money?

I take the bus.

Shiro Reply:
November 2nd, 2011 at 9:24 pm

Wow, it must be awesome to live in a city where you have public transportation. I know that we do not! We do have a taxi service, but it is located 37 miles away- imagine those charges when you’re living on minimum wage at a max of 27 hours a week!

My office is located 15 miles away. There is only one way to get there: by car. We do not have carpooling groups here, meaning unless you want to bike to work 30 miles every day, round trip, then the only other option is to get your own car. And with your own car, comes your own gas bill, and your own car insurance bill.

In essence, the job it took me more than eight months to get costs me more than I get paid. But I would never leave it, since it is the ONLY job I’ve been able to land at all since I’ve gotten out of high school.

If only I had a bus, right?

Danielle Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 8:01 am

You must live in a large city with good public transportation. I live in a small city that is the capital of a rural state. The lower income people I have worked with through my former job and through volunteer work would sometimes take the bus, but would often choose to walk 5 or more miles to wherever they were going because the bus system is so lousy. The ones living in the city had that option. But I have also worked with many individuals in rural areas and in smaller cities without any transportation system. For them public transportation isn’t even an option.

Public transportation, at least here, is largely funded by tax money. Every year it almost gets cut. And yet people want to cut taxes, which could effectively end the public transportation system, and then tell minimum wage earners to just take the bus! It doesn’t make sense.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 8:50 am

San Francisco is expensive. At least we have pub transportation. At least living in a rural area is way cheaper for everything else.

What’s wrong with having people who use the bus, pay for the bus? I’m not following you on the taxes.

This is a great article!!! But you have to read between the lines. I learned that the largest income in the U.S. makes $1,031,512,000,000 TAX FREE!!! Our government brings this much in for taxes and still is asking for more!!! This just confirms my belief that if you are not competent enough to balance your budget, you should not be re-elected (for both liberals and conservatives). STOP ASKING FOR MORE FROM THE POOR, THE MIDDLE CLASS, AND THE RICH!!! We can tax any of these three groups more and it will not matter if our government continues to out spend it’s own budget and borrow from other countries.

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I wonder if the analysis focused on how much of the taxes benefitted the 1% vs. the 99% the notion of ‘fairness’ would be different.

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it should be noted that the IRS statistics on AGI are for individuals, not households, and don’t include capital gains or dividends, and that the threshold for the top 1% is about $380k per year, while the top 0.1% of individuals earn over 1.4 million a year and represent less than 150,000 people. Wealth consolidation is higher in America today than it was in 1929. So many people are passionate about defending the ‘fairness’ to this small, super rich sector of the population. Personally, I’d let the super rich and their wide array of staff do the defense work. Worry about what taxes the top 1% pays when you join their illustrious ranks. In the meantime, do a reality check on what taxes the bottom 50% pay – AGI doesn’t count the PAYROLL TAX. And just to get really real, taxes don’t just go down a big toilet. They pay for so much – we all drive on roads, for example, right? None of us are so righteous because we have our own roads? Or our own armies? No bombs whistling outside my windows, thanks. Taxes pay for police and fire departments, coast guard and air traffic control, public schools, the massive system of international customs, trade, and immigration, oversight for everything from food to finances, social service programs that keep starving kids out of doorways and streets (soooo annoying when I’m trying to drive through in my Land Rover)…the list is endless, and all American citizens reap the benefits of tax dollars at work every day of our lives, just through the normalcy of a country with functioning statehood. I mean, is anyone really longing for SF to look like more like Mumbai? I’m glad to pay my taxes, and I am bumping pretty close to the top 1%. I’m glad because I’m a patriot, and I do not expect to get government services for free and do not begrudge helping others….jeeze…someone who thought that way would have a serious entitlement attitude.

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Danielle Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 7:46 am

I second that! Why don’t more people realize that (1) taxes really aren’t the worst thing to have to pay–they fund our roads, for one thing, and (2) they aren’t the top 1%! I have a few friends who would fall in the top 1% (at least based on this chart) and it makes sense that they would want to lower their taxes. But so many people are voting against their own best interest and don’t even realize it!

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Financial Samurai Reply:
December 3rd, 2011 at 7:41 am

People who say taxes “aren’t the worst thing” are the one’s who aren’t being asked to pay more taxes, and who already pay most of the taxes already.

I don’t mind tax increases if you pay for it and I don’t! That’s the logic here.

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All I know is I work 52-60 hours a week and I make 35000.00 a year. I am a single parent and get no support from the government and I have a hard time making ends meet. I rent and do very little for entertainment and am paycheck to paycheck and I pay 736 a month in federal and local taxes. So I pay right at 10000 a year in taxes and struggle daily living and supporting my children. So I feel the poor pay their fair share of taxes. The problem is the government gives welfare with no restrictions. I believe a person should be required to work at least 20 hrs. or more to get help and have to pass drug/alcohol tests to get the thousands of dollars a year in help. I don’t care to have my taxes help someone if they are making an effort to help themselves. But the people who don’t work and get subsided rent and foodstamps and insurance and they do nothing that’s what’s not fair. But if you work you pay taxes so instead of fighting over that why not fight to stop bums from getting everything handed to them. If you are trying to get a head you get no help but if your willing to do nothing for yourself then our government will give you anything? That’s our problem in America and our other problem is NAFTA.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
December 3rd, 2011 at 7:43 am

Darek, thanks for your thoughts. I really hope at the end of the year, you get a nice tax refund, b/c paying an effective 30% of your 35K/year income sounds high. Hope you get that $1,000/child/year tax credit.

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Not sure someone making less than 33k per year can just pack up and move to San Francisco bay area! Especially if they have children. Sounds like you are a bit out of touch. We make over 100k per year, and it would be a very difficult move for us financially!

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 3rd, 2011 at 8:52 am

It takes less than 7 days by bus to move cross country vs 3 months for settlers who did it 300 yrs ago. The Internet also helps you never have to move either.

Be resourceful. Yes, your 100k isn’t a lot, and we feel your pain, but you can make more if you want.

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Brooke Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 7:58 am

Danielle, once upon a time people moved to where the work was. They didn’t consider or CARE if little Bobby was going to have to leave his little league team. Want to know why people become “rich”? Because they are WILLING to do things that will get them there. They will take a loss on a job to earn someone’s business. They will work 60 hours a week and sacrifice something else with that time. They will NOT buy that flat screen TV and get some gold or silver instead. If your priority is comfort, then you need to decide WHEN you want to be comfortable and at what cost. Do you want to work hard now while you CAN or do you want to stress out when you’re 80 praying that your SS govt check is going to come?

I’ve moved several times. Left my friends and family. Sure, I’d rather be in California on my beach in the sun drinking coronas but right NOW I have to live in the land that time forgot so that when I go back there I do not need to worry.

The problem is people aren’t willing to do what they need to do to get ahead. Sometimes it hurts! But it doesn’t hurt for that long.

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Danielle Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:01 am

First of all, I’m more than satisfied with my 100k, thank you very much. We live in a large home in a nice neighborhood, send our kids to a great private school, I stay home with my kids, we vacation several times a year. I am living a very comfortable and happy life. Just shows how out of touch YOU are if you think 100 k isn’t enough to be comfortable on. If I wanted more money I’d go back to work. It’s as simple as that for me, but I have a graduate degree and a license to practice law.

My fight is not for people like me, who are indeed very comfortable. It is for the countless individuals and families I have worked with who struggle more than I can ever imagine. I devoted several years of my legal career trying to help them. For some of them I saw hope. But for many of them I couldn’t imagine a way out of their situation, no matter how hard I tried. Many of these were hard working individuals who worked 2 or more jobs just to get by. It really is depressing, and I am not the kind of person who can simply say “f- them, at least I live well.”

Moving, for them, is not about having to leave their child’s little league team. Most of them don’t have the time or money to participate in things like that anyway. Many of them don’t have computers or Internet, so FS’s argument that anyone can work from anywhere fails.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 11:05 am

Cool. How much have you donated to families in need and how much time have you volunteered this year?

Danielle Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 2:27 pm

In response to FS’s comment below:
No idea how much time or money I have donated this year. I don’t keep track every time I donate a pack of diapers or a can of food or a jar of peanut butter. We just finished a box for operation Christmas child–probably $30 or so, but since it’s coming out of disposable income, I don’t really know. My husband keeps track of the weekly contributions we make to our church, and the monthly contributions we make to our homeless shelter.

No idea how much volunteer time either–that varies from week to week and even month to month, depending on what is going on in my personal life. I have a two year old who goes to daycare two mornings each week, and the rest of the time she is with me. I just finished up a pro bono case that probably took 40-50 hours. Others I have done took considerably more. I do what I can, and whe mynchildren are older I will do more. They are my priority right now.

But you’re not really interested in what I’ve done, nor am I really interested in advertising it. You were just hoping to prove a point.

Feel free to have the last word–on this or any other argument I’ve posted. We will never change each others mind’s taking jabs back and forth, so it’s really just a waste of time. I’d rather play Memory with my kids.

Brooke Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 3:30 pm

and there are plenty of people that are more than satisfied with the amount of hours they work but not with the money.. and will not do anything to change their situation. I have heard at LEAST a dozen times “I can’t do that” or “I wouldn’t want to do that” or “I’d be no good at that”. I’ve attempted to hire AT LEAST a dozen people that have told me those things but yet have made no attempt at doing what I do. Everyone that works for me works no more than 30 a week and no one is pacing under 60k. I don’t dictate their hours or how many hours they are to work and they are ALL on commission. You earn what you are worth. But seriously, how many people do you know that wouldn’t DREAM of not getting paid to stand at the water cooler? I run into them every single day.

And trust this, NO ONE earning 30k a year would agree that moving would be financially difficult for YOU. To them, you are RICH.

Financial Samurai Reply:
December 3rd, 2011 at 7:44 am

Well said Brooke! Go to where the opportunities are. It’s so backward that people thing opportunities will just come to them!

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tax bracket should be what it was in the 50′s..the rich don’t pay nearly as much as they should. 90%…thats right 90%

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Brooke Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 7:53 am

great idea! But taxing someone 90% is going to give them as much as YOU get which is no motivation to bust ass and earn that much. And it’s been PROVEN that the more you tax the rich the less revenue the country gets. The trick is to expand the tax base and have everyone working and paying their FAIR share. I pay quite a lot in taxes but I do not receive ANYTHING from my government. My roads, plowing, parks and rec, etc are all paid by my state taxes. The only thing the federal govt gives me is defense and I’m certainly not receiving more of that than the next guy.

It boils down to someone being pissed off that someone else is making more money than you. You’re bitter. When I was younger I used to ASK the wealthy how they did it rather than being mad that I was in a position that wouldn’t pay me what they made. And now, I am quite comfortable because I listened to them. 85% of the millionaires in this country started with nothing.

We should get RID of the corporate tax all together. Unfortunately you can’t go back to the 50s (don’t you democrats always accuse republicans of wanting to live in leave it to beaver’s house?). We’re in a global economy now thanks to NAFTA and GAT. If we tax people more and more, they are now free to walk away and take their money and jobs with them. I’d rather have no corporate taxes and create 50 million jobs than high taxes with negative job growth that we haven’t seen since Hoover. I’d gladly say NO corporate tax if a corporation would move it’s (let’s say in the case of G.E.) x-ray division BACK to the USA and dole out 10k jobs. If we had no corporate tax, no one else in the world would be able to compete with that and every business in the world would be breaking their necks to open up shop here.

We even had job growth DURING the “great depression”!!!!!!!

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Danielle Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 12:40 pm

No one ever paid 90% taxes. That is one of the biggest exaggerations ever. We have a graduated tax system, so everyone pays the same amount (10%) for the first $8500 earned (17k if filed jointly). If you make more than $8500, then anything above 8500 is taxed in the next bracket, at 15% (up to $34,500 for individuals, 69k joint). So if you make 10k per year, then 8500 will be taxed at 10% and the remaining 1500 will be taxed at 15%. It is tiered like that all the way to 379k, and if you are lucky enough to make that (AGI–NOT gross), then you pay 35% on any money ABOVE 379k. Even though a person making that much would be in the 35% tax bracket, that person would NOT be paying 35% of his or her income in taxes.

Then there are deductions, 401k contributions, FSAs, HSAs, etc….all ways of whittling down your AGI. Of course, these things typically benefit the wealthy the most, since those are people in the best position to take advantage of tax breaks (a person living paycheck to paycheck may struggle to put away 10% for retirement, whereas someone with a lot of disposable income doesn’t really miss the money that much). So, a person with an AGI of 379k is probably earning something closer to 450-500k, though I know it would vary vastly from individual to individual and family to family.

When Reagan lowered taxes, the upper brackets were pushing 90%, and I would agree that that’s excessive. But no one was ever paying 90% of their income in taxes. It’s a disingenuous argument to suggest they were.

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robert Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 8:23 am

I agree with getting rid of corporate taxes, they are just a business expense. Just tax the ultra rich on their personal income at a fair rate; not at the meager capital gains tax rate we have today (to benefit the ultra rich). Reagan recognized this and when he needed to raise taxes, he taxed the ultra rich too. Under Clinton, the capital gains tax was cut, and cut further under Bush II. You need to wonder if these two guys work for the same people.

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Brooke Reply:
November 7th, 2011 at 7:28 am

sure! why not! 80% of capital gains income is held by people making 100k or less! Great idea! Capital gains tax is NOT income tax. They are 2 different taxes and capital gains tax is actually double taxation anyway! Taxing capital gains makes it impossible to recoup the money you handed (or were forced to hand) to the government.

No one is suggesting that the “ultra rich” shouldn’t pay taxes. What people have a problem with is that they are being told they should pay their “fair share” which falls far from actually being fair.

And the “rich” that don’t want to pay MORE taxes have a very valid arguement. Why give (or be forced to give) more money to poor stewards? You can tax the “top 1%” 100% and it wouldn’t make a dent in our deficit, much less debt. But it would kill any hopes for anyone else to ever make a living OR become wealthy at some point. For the first time in history our debt has exceeded our GDP. Tax us ALL 100% and, aside from killing any economy that we have left, we’ll still be in debt and then have to means of paying what is left.

and wonder if these 2 guys work for the same guy??? LMFAO YOU WONDER??? I can remember when people would look at me like I’ve got 3 heads when “new world order” came out of my mouth. It’s like they didn’t get the memo that Bush 1 sent out.. or somehow weren’t listening to that speech!

Something else that needs to be pointed out is that people complain about corporations/rich having so much control over the government. Well, they pay the bill! They have MORE skin in the game. I find that the more I pay in taxes the more concerned I am about where the money goes. What is it about people that makes them think they can pay nothing, get checks from the govt and then have any valid claim to how it’s run?

Robert Reply:
November 7th, 2011 at 9:37 am

Perhaps capital gains are held to a large degree by people who are not utra-rich. However, I would venture that these holdings are in retirement accounts that will be tax at regular income tax rates when withdrawn, not at the lower capital gains tax. So, how can anyone think for a second that a low capital gains tax is nothing more than a tax break for the ultra rich and merely a bone for anyone else who might be fortunate enough to have some stock outside of their retirement account. What we have today is an inverted tax system where the ultra – rich pay less than the the 99th percentile at 380,000K. This is clearly unfair to those who work and pay taxes at higher rates (like the other top half of wage earners. I wish that someday, I too can earn so much money that my average tax rate drops to 18 percent.

For a man to be homeless all he needs is a box.
For a man to become a billionaire he needs: schools, roads, trains, airports, hospitals, armies, laws, et.
Obviously, America needs billionaires to grow and prosper. So what comes first: the chicken or the egg?
Just do me one favor: stop feeling sorry for the billionaire.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
December 3rd, 2011 at 7:45 am

Nobody is feeling sorry for the billionaire. It’s those who are the working top 1% who are getting screwed the most.

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I only have one final thing to say. My grandfather came here from Ireland when he was 8 and spoke zero english. (very strange accent) He used to say “find a need and fill it”. He started a welding company, then expanded to selling welding supplies, then to selling gas, then to manufacturing the gas and now there are 14 retail stores in central California.

FIND A NEED AND FILL IT DAMMIT!

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I am fortunate to come from a good family. I was raised well. I dropped out of high school, never went to college, but i was still smart, worked hard and now i run my own internet marketing business that puts me in the top 10-15% every year.

Knowing all this i still think that we are a society. Sometimes the rich have to help the poor. Sometimes the ones with have to help the ones without.

I have no problem paying my taxes, because as a business owner, i have tons of loop holes and and an good accountant that helps me pay the very least possible (about $3000 last year). Just like there are some poor that abuse a system that gives them the very minimum to survive. There are just as many, and most likely more well off people who abuse the same system to make more money and not have to pay their share.

We lost close to 3mm jobs last year and shipped the same amount over seas. This is a world economy and world market. As a Americans we no longer make ANYTHING, we create nothing. The people with money don’t invest in making a better car, or a better VCR. They take their money and use splits, derivatives and other investment tools to make more money all that the sake of the lower class creating a large economic gap. That is how its done now, and we must tax them to get back in the economy that which they no longer contribute as they did decades before.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
December 3rd, 2011 at 7:47 am

Marc, you are correct. This is a WORLD economy and WORLD market!

We are competing with people who make less and are HUNGRIER than us. It’s time we realized this and stop feeling so entitled!

If you want to get ahead, work 80 hours a week and brainstorm some new ideas! If not, someone else will eat your lunch and dinner.

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I know ‘good family’ and ‘dropped out of school’ don’t go well together however my parents were awesome i just was a bad boy for about 10 years.

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Do you really have a problem with someone like “The Situation” who made 4mm last year paying 40% in taxes. I sure don’t.

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@Phil
Actually YES!!!! We were in the lower income % and HATED it. We hated not being able to pay bills, travel etc. So we worked 70+ hours a week…used our tax $$ to start a small inhome business, learned how to advertise and our business took off. Our taxes were only 3K and most “poor” people EASILY (with kids) get 6-10k back a YEAR in taxes. BUt what do they do with it all? WASTE on a TV’s and crap they don’t need. YOU and anyone can do it if you are motivated and keep at it. have you ever seen Persuit of happiness? He made it…we’re FINALLy making it. We are now in the top 15%. Was it easy? heck NO! Was it worth it? You bet!!!!

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 4th, 2011 at 8:58 pm

Nice job making it! That sounds pretty rational to me: Hating being poor, so you became rich.

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I started biting my nails just when I started reading the BS spewing from the person who wrote this article. Conservative policies have never worked, not during the times of herbert hoover and certainly not now. Also the post above “claiming” taxing the rich hurts the country, lol, NOT true the exact opposite. Read up on history. Also claiming lower income earners are lazy is also a crock of you know what. My husband and I are in the 5% as well, but live in an area that is expensive(long island) I have never had a problem with my tax dollars going to people that need it. My husband got really lucky to make good money. A lot of it has to do with luck. I am sick of those on the right calling low income workers lazy. I guess a person working 12 hours in mcdonalds is lazy too, right? These days people with college education are not landing good jobs these days. During the recession, most of us have sacraficed but people like me BIL who works for UBS bank has made out. Why are we not asking them to make the sacrafice as well? He is most certainly NOT paying what he should be and people like him have sacraficed NOTHING! Time to change that. Seems only the middle and lower classes sacrafice, rich NOTHING, greed, greed, greed. With the income they make, they need to pay out more

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freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 10:56 am

True I just want to sit at home and get my check and play video games…Tax all the rich till they bleed

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Brooke Reply:
November 7th, 2011 at 7:34 am

You got “lucky” and make good money? So you do a job that SHOULD pay … say $10 an hour but got “lucky” and found someone to pay you more than you’re worth? I don’t know anyone that truely considers themselves “lucky” on their earnings unless they won the lottery and invested it.

I’ve never heard someone on “the right” call anyone low income lazy. I’ve heard liberals SAY that they call them that but have never actually heard it come out of a mouth for myself. What I do know is that ingenuity is lost because it is taxed to death. Hillary Clinton was in Pakistan and said, “We (the USA) tax everything that moves”.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
December 3rd, 2011 at 7:49 am

Hope you didnt have a nervous breakdown with your Top 5% income living in Long Island.

Nobody said people who make $10 at McDonalds is lazy. Where is that written in the article? I worked at McDonald’s for $3.25 an hour and was the best damn egg mcmuffin maker in the restaurant!

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Also, it always AMAZES me when conservatives tell you to just shut up and start your own business, lol ,sure, with what money? That is taking a HUGE chance, most would need loans to do so AND not everyone is going to be “business wise”, it is just not going to happen. Also, the whole abortion issue is finished, ok? It is a legal procedure, just get the hell over it already. Before it was legal, women died. Making it illegal will only cause the deaths of more women as they will not stop getting the abortions. There are 7 billion people in this world already, do we really need anymore unwanted ones? Population is a huge problem. Can you imagine if all those unwanted kids were here? There are no jobs as it is, and with the conservatives anti jobs policies, it is only going to get worse. I will finish now, because fighting with a conservative is just a waste of time, only see in b/w One more thing, stop tooting your horns about your income. My husband and I made 175k last year, we got lucky, even I could admit to that. Lots of people who work hard did not get so lucky, can’t stand people who stand on a freaking pedestal judging others. Also, you never know when you may lose that $, I have seen it happen, don’t think you are above it.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 7:11 am

It costs me $12 a YEAR to register the domain of this site, and $300 a year for server the first year. I’m sure you can come up with $313 a year with your 175K salary.

If you never try, you will never win, and yes you are right, you will never lose.

The best is when people make $175,000 a year and sit on a high horse and go against capitalism.

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freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 10:54 am

It is even funnier to watch these ultra rich actors talk against capitalism with their 40 million dollars

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 10:59 am

Multi-millionaires Michael Moore, Susan Sarandon and Kanye West wisely milked the 99% Occupy everything crowd. I wonder if the crowd knows they’ve been used?

freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 11:05 am

Heck your doing better than me and I started my own bussiness with 20k borrowed.

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Brooke Reply:
November 7th, 2011 at 8:15 am

I’ve said this before but I’ll say it again, I started in my industry and for the first 6 months earned ZERO. I lost my apartment and moved onto my mom’s couch. I could have gotten a paltry hourly job but I dug my heals in and got it done. Now I’m quite comfortable. Had nothing AND I MEAN NOTHING to do with luck. Luck is gold falling out of the sky which it does not. Sure, you can be in the right place at the right time but you have to DO SOMETHING with it which takes more effort than luck. You want to help people? Donate your time and money! Don’t have time? Guess you missed out on that “luck” ’cause that time is spent doing other things.

Prior to my current career I was a $5/hr plus tiny commission TELEMARKETER. I took my SKILL that I worked very hard to develop and started my own brokerage. Took NO money to do and I charged $35 AN HOUR up front in 100 hour blocks. I personally serviced 50 hours a week so all on my own I earned 7k a month. 23 years old in 1995 making 7k/month. My overhead? A phone. There was no luck involved. It was a lot of hard work and more time than most people care to spend.

And the abortion issue? There will ALWAYS be people that are okay with it and are not okay with it. If you don’t know how it all came about, you’ll see Margaret Sanger as a “hero” of some sort when in reality, the negro project was all about keeping the “less desirables” from breeding and it was put in front of them as your “choice” or “right”.

My aunt was murdered while she was pregnant and the man that did it is serving 2 life sentences for 2 counts of murder 1. How is that possible? According to you, he only killed ONE person! That baby didn’t have any right to live, or any rights at all! So how is this man serving time for killing something that had less rights than a delta smelt? WHAT INJUSTICE!!!!

When obama’s policies started coming down the pike it was going to GREATLY impact my business so in order to stay in business I had to make some minor adjustments. No one is paid hourly anymore, everyone is a 1099. I lost 4 people and 3 came back. Turns out that 60k a year for around 30 hours is pretty damned good. And if they want to make more, they can either work longer/harder/smarter. It’s up to them. It’s amazing what happens to someone when they take control of their own destiny, and no matter how hard you try or how much you want to believe it, hourly pay doesn’t give you that unless you are smart with the money you DO get to take home.

Last year I conducted my own experiment. I put an ad out to hire and offered people 20% more than what they were getting on their unemployment checks. Not one person bothered to ask if they could be promoted, get a raise, get commission… nothing. I offered the job to 14 people and not one of them took it. I was willing to pay out of my pocket 20% more than they were getting from the govt without expecting any production for the first 90 days. No one took the job. No one.

So please, don’t tell me that people are wanting jobs. What I’ve found in REAL life experience is that people want the jobs they want for what they THINK they’re worth. And surprise people! You (and your house that you paid too much for) are only worth what someone is willing to pay.

And p.s. I moved to the east coast from a tiny beach town in orange county, CA where the average price of a home is 1.2 million dollars. I know about how expensive things can be. And no, I didn’t get some jumbo sub prime loan to keep up with the kardashians like most people in the country opted for.

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This guys math is wrong. His logic is wrong. And his attitude is wrong. On top of that he attacked another responder for explaing a difficult situation involving raising a child. People like financial samuri are what is wrong with this country. He obviously has no idea what financial hardship is and he is completely devoid of moral value. I have worked very hard my entire life often having two or three jobs at once working 18 hour days and have never made more than 22000 a year. I have never had the opportunity to go to college and moving was not a realistic option either. I am now supporting a family of three off of a 9 dollar an hour job. I can’t even buy a canned soda with the bills that I have and we cannot afford to move. There are no job opportunities and we are not being wasteful with our money. Just rent and electricity alone takes all of my income. The only way financial samurai’s statistics are right is if you are already born into an american household that is in good financial order. Without debit in a good area and able to help out with college.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 5th, 2011 at 7:05 am

Step one is to stop digging if you find yourself to be in a hole. Step two is to really look yourself in the mirror and evaluate what are the things you can improve about yourself (unless you think you are perfect), and figure out how to get better. I tell myself I am nobody every single day, so I don’t lose the hunger to fight.

You can blame statistics, or you can blame yourself and change.

Fight on brother. Never surrender. We live in America, where anything is possible.

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What I haven’t really seen addressed is a comparison of the relative benefit from the taxes paid by those who pay them. In particular, I’d like to see a description of all the veritably “hidden” benefits of government services, etc.
For example, traditional welfare programs such as food assistance and Medicaid are pretty obvious (and that is why we tend to hear about it).
But what about others that are not so easy to see?
We all drive on roads but many of the poor don’t use because they don’t have vehicles. Yes, roads are paid for in part by taxes on fuel but they are funded in many other ways, too. Commercial vehicles have an disproportionately negative effect on wear and tear on roads but don’t pay the proportion of taxes to cover those costs. It is not the very poor who avail themselves of the civil legal system in this country and while fees offset these costs, they are still largely taxpayer supported.
I think we should separate these types of societal benefits in our discussions and realize that we ALL benefit from societal contributions and that those designed for the poor are really only there to help ensure a minimally humane existence.
Yes, some people abuse it just as some people abuse the tax system.
But if we’re talking about people who are benefiting from social programs to scratch out that minimal existence, I am less inclined to want to scrutinize every dollar they spend (or misspend) and am more interested in those who have made their fortunes from the government trough through government contracts, etc.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
December 3rd, 2011 at 7:52 am

The benefits decline precipitously the more taxes you pay. Do you think someone making $500,000 a year and pays $200,000 in taxes gets 70X the benefit of someone making $30,000 a year and paying $3,000 in Federal taxes?

Hell no. It’s called theft by the government.

A road is a road and a public library is a public library.

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People in general are very confused by the definitions of fair and equal. They are not interchangeable terms. Equal means everyone gets the same treatment. Fair means everyone gets what they NEED. It is equal to have everyone pay the same percentage of taxes but not necessarily fair. Some people feel it is only fair to have everyone pay equal taxes and other feel it is fair to ensure that everyone has a certain minimum standard of living. I am someone who grew up in the bottom 50%. I received free lunch at school and significant grants from the government to help with college. I also had many student loans. I am now in the top 5% of wage earners and I can tell you that people in the bottom 50 % often work as hard if not harder than those in the top 5%. There are a few people who live on welfare their entire life and do have a sense of entitlement but that is NOT the feeling for the majority of the bottom 50%. Most of them work hard and do work multiple jobs when they can, but unlike most of those in the top 50%, they do not get paid if they are sick. They do not have sick days and never get more than 2 weeks of vacation. Those in the top 5% typically get more vacation days the longer they work at a company. I know my company does give me sick day but rather tell me that if I am sick, please do not come in and I still get paid. I only have to worry if I am out for more than 30 days and then I get short term disability 100%pay. When my parents got sick, we had no money. We could not afford medical treatment that was recommended (like having my tonsils removed). I am now able to afford to pay for treatment for myself for a rare disease. My sister has the same problem but is in the bottom 50% and can not afford treatment. For me it costs $225/month but the insurance she has working that bottom 50% job covers far less and it would cost her$1200/month for the same treatment. That is nearly her entire salary.

I am in the top 5% and have no problem with paying my fair share, not my equal share.

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I am amazed as to how the rich see the people that work for them in labour positions as a burden to them. The rich feel that those physical labour jobs are given to them and they should just shut up and accept what ever money is handed down to them and be dam grateful for it. The rich want those lazy people to either get an education or start a business and make a way for themselves like the rich do.

The rich don’t understand that those people that work for them work hard everyday. 40 hrs a week and most likely no weekends off. They don’t have the energy to start their own business on top of everything. College is just too expensive. They go home in their run down car or take public transit and eat food that is either not fresh, (canned) and most likely no higher priced cuts of meat either. The home maybe older with rot in the walls or dusty duct ventilation because professionals are too expensive. Maybe the house is drafty or something else is wrong so that their general heath is never that great.

With everything against the working class it is a wonder not more criminals are created. The rich want to limit healthcare or raise its cost. Eliminate minimum wage because they think this will create more jobs for small business and therefore create more taxable revenue for the government. They also want the jobs to be part time so that any overtime won’t raise the hours over the 40 hrs a week so it will all be straight pay. This is just a trick to create more jobs. This is a type of Reaganomics or called Fiscal Conservatism.
This helps get businesses growing, the rich to get richer, grow the economy but what about all those people who earn less? The long term effect will be bigger burden on the healthcare system than ever. 20 or 30 years from now the only answer will be either mass extermination or more social programs than you can shake a stick at. The way the rich are talking now, which way do you think they will go?

So you might be asking yourself, what can an average slob do to stop the inevitable decline of modern society? Well don’t vote Republican, that’s for sure. They are the ones in bed with the rich and do their bidding. The way they are stopping President Obama from successfully passing a jobs bill or changing the budget to gain revenue from the rich and increasing social assistance to the poor is a pretty good indicator of what will happen with a majority government of Republicans.

People don’t want to pay taxes to support the heath and welfare of the poor. I can understand but listen; the majority of the poor are ethnic minorities in the United States. The repressed, the outcast from societies norm. They got there from days of Lincoln. Imagine if slavery was reintroduced to America. That is really how buying and selling of slaves became so repulsive to the Yankee sense of right and wrong. When a slave got sick they were not creating revenue so getting a new slave would be a better idea than nurse maiding the sick one till he/she died. It just made economic good sense.

With Christmas coming there are more Eboneser Scrooges out there than ever.

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You need to learn how to do math. It would take $71/month for each of the 69 or so Billion bottom 50% earners to create $60B in tax revenue.

Yes, absolutely. Let’s take all those with mental or physical handicaps, all those who are very old, or very sick, and have them move to San Francisco whose vibrant social media will make it easy for them to work 40 hours a year.

That’s what I like about republicans. They can’t multiply or divide. They think vaccines cause mental retardation. They think anyone sick, old, or unlucky should be dumped in the middle of the ocean.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 5:56 am

Ummmm.. do your math again. You’re embarrassing yourself. How many people are in this world? How many people live in America?

There is no hope for you, I’m sorry. But, at least there will be for someone else.

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Here is an important thing that people are forgetting, those same people that pay damn near HALF of the income taxes in our country also employ damn near EVERYONE in the country. Also, anyone who strives to just work a minimum wage job for all eternity should maybe reacess their priorities in life. I work more than full time, well over 50 hours a week, in the military, deploy to third world countries for months on end and I still find time to take college classes in my free time so that when and if I decide to get out I wont have to work a minimum wage job. I know multiple women who are single mothers, sometimes of more than one child, but still find time to go to school to get degrees to better there lives and earn a better income for their family. Two of my favorite sayings in life are “Excuses are like a@@ holes, everyones got one and they all stink” and one is a quote from the movie Caddie Shack “the world needs ditch diggers too.” If someone wants to settle for a low income job than that is a CHOICE that they make but by doing so they choose to live a low income lifestyle; in other words reading about celebrities vacations instead of taking them. I absolutely refuse to think that it is fair to tax someone 38 percent of their income in ANY circumstance. That seems a lot like punishing someone for being succesful to me regaurdless of their “ability” to pay. Another thing I love too is when people bring up luxory taxes as an expense. Here’s an idea, if you can’t afford the taxes on booze and cigarrettes or the sales tax on a new car than maybe you shouldn’t BUY booze and cigarettes or that new car! The other thing that bothers the absolute hell out of me is that people like my father, who probably fall into that top five or ten percent but have earned it every step of the way have to pay so much of their income into taxes when others who have literally screwed up their lives and made bad decisions sit back and live off of other peoples success and good decisions. My dad did not go to college, started out in the electronics industry in the silicone valley running an injection molding machine making the connectors that go into computers, took night classes in business management in his free time and eventually got a job as a manager. Worked his ass off while raising two kids and supporting a stay at home mom and eventually was a regional sales manager. When my parents got divorced my dad QUIT a six figure a year job to go into business with his brother so he could be closer to home and now runs his own succesful business and all that is coming from a public school education and living in a household with 3 siblings on a public school teacher’s salary. My grandmother was a first generation immigrant from Guatemala and came to this country at 6 without being able to speak a single word of English but learned to speak so well you would have never known it was her second language. She also never got less than a “B” in a single class in school and literally worked every single day of her life from 16 till she died at 81 years old not because she had to but because she LIKED TO WORK for a living. Thats 65 years of employment without ever taking a dime from the system. I am so disgusted now by what I have started to call “The American Feeling of Entitlement” that is the new plague of our country. What ever happened to EARNING the American Dream instead of expecting it to be handed to you for being born here? Everyone in our country wants something for nothing now. I keep reading articles about unemployment and how we need to extend unemployment benefits and yet, when I do some research I find hundreds of manual labor or low skilled labor jobs all over the country and all that took was a simple craigslist search. Unfortuanetely people would rather take a free check from the government than come home with sore muscles from a manual labor job. My other favorite excuse is “I can’t afford school” but I am pretty sure every American has the right to enlist in the military and EARN the GI Bill but that would require sacrifice and no one in our country wants to sacrifice to get ahead anymore.

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jefndenver Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 12:26 pm

Kyle makes excellent points. But he also seems to suffer from only being able to see the circumstances he or his family experienced. Not everyone is so fortunate.
I have spent my entire adult life advocating for people with disabilities and those who’ve just had some bad breaks. One inexplicable conclusion is that it is incredibly difficult to break out of the cycle of poverty. No, it’s not always impossible. But the odds are stacked against you.
For them, one illness can put them into bankruptcy because they can’t afford health insurance, what insurance is available on the non-group, commercial market is too expensive and covers too little. And if there’s a pre-existing condition, you’re SOL.
Assume you go through several years without a serious illness or accident. You still get sick and for every day you take off work, you don’t get paid. So you come back to work while you’re still sick (and contagious) putting your low-income co-workers in the same situation. If you work in any industry with contact with people, you put a lot of other people at risk, too.
At a minimum- or near-minimum wage job, how many days can you miss before bills start getting late. A simple late fee or bounce check charge can wipe away any savings you may have had.
Faced with challenges like this, people often make decisions to take a risk.
Perhaps they can skip their auto insurance for a month to get back on track. Even if they don’t get into an accident, they face incredibly hefty fines if they simply get caught driving without insurance and then they have the privilege of paying an extra fee for their insurance. Even if they don’t get caught, insurers charge a higher rate for those who can’t show they’ve had prior coverage.
And if there was an accident, he’d better hope the fault is clear because when it’s not, the person without insurance is going to be viewed as the most likely suspect. He won’t have an insurance company paid lawyer to contest the accident so even if it isn’t his fault, he’s probably going to pay for it anyway.
Let’s say they are able to get a temporary job, under the table, to make some extra cash. They get paid by check and think they are just going to cash it at the bank it is drawn on so they can pay the extra bills only to find that the bank the check is drawn on charges a fee to cash it’s own checks – something they know will not affect those with checking accounts.
Let’s hope this person remembers to declare the income even though he didn’t get a 1099 on his taxes or he will get hit with a 25 percent under reporting penalty and interest.
If you’re thinking such a low-income person is not likely to be audited, the most audited “profession” are tipped employees – particularly in the food service industry because they are able to catch hundreds at a time by a three-year audit of a single restaurant’s charge receipts (listed by employee). Once there is an audit, they have instant access to your bank records including that of your spouse or whomever you may share an account with.
Most food service workers can’t afford professional tax preparation to catch these things and to represent them at audits so they just end up paying.
How many of these things do you think it takes before someone who struggles every day to get by year-after-year, before they discouraged? Even depressed? Those with insurance can get some help, prescriptions, even therapy. Those without it may get to a clinic but then can’t follow through because they don’t have the money for the prescriptions. What’s even worse, they get some samples, they get started on the meds but can’t afford to keep it up so they stop which puts them at a greater risk of suicide (which disproportionately affects lower income groups and many children live in poverty for no other reason than a parent just plain died.
I know this sort of story sounds far-fetched to many people who’ve never lived it. But to the great many more in this country who’ve lived it or know someone who has, this is a very real scenario – a nightmare that just doesn’t seem to have an end.
I’ve heard the stories from many who have told me of their misfortune they were able to overcome. Some were stories similar to this. They are rare. Others tell me of their stories only to find that they were isolated and/or to discover that they had help getting out of it. Perhaps a family loan or an inheritance.
Even the concept of inheritance is completely different for people in lower income groups than for others. For some, the only thing they have to look forward to inheriting is their family propensity for alcoholism or Alzheimer’s. Where others get free money just for being born into the situation.
Even when higher-income people don’t inherit money or property, they are still in a much better situation to overcome negative circumstances than those who start out with nothing.
Yes, there are people who will take advantage of any help and feel they are entitled to it. I also know rich people with a similar sense of entitlement. Who is more likely to push a restaurant manager for a free meal because the server spilled some water in their lap. To the rich person, it is just another meal out. For the lower-income individual, it may have been their anniversary or other special occasion. But it is nearly always the rich person who will complain until they get something. I’ve even seen them insist the server be “punished” for such things.
Which brings me to my final point.
There are some people out there that the acquisition of wealth is paramount to everything else. Such individuals usually get wealth. Some of them even do so at the expense of others – stealing credit when it wasn’t earned or even stealing other people’s ideas, etc. (Like the saying goes, if you’re going to steal, you’re better off stealing $1 million versus $100. You’ll probably do easier time if caught and it will probably be less time, too.)
But the vast majority of people are not interested in being rich. Sure, they wouldn’t mind it if they made it big and some even play the lottery or resort to crime to get rich quick. They are not the majority. Most people just want to live a decent life, raise a family, retire and play with their grand kids. They’d like to do an occasional vacation and have a little money to give to their church and a favored charity. When they give to charity, many don’t give so their name gets put in a newsletter or on plaque. They just want to help.
For many people, they give even though it hurts. In fact, I personally don’t consider it “giving” unless it really does “hurt” to give. if the person giving is not sacrificing, they are likely getting a tax deduction or their name posted for all to see. Sure their money helps but it is no coincidence that nonprofits have all these different ways for people to show off their giving.
I’ve learned a very long time ago that when you break it down to the most basic components, human beings are motivated in the same manner as any other animal. They do things for one or both of two reasons: to gain a benefit and/or avoid a loss.
For some people, the benefit to be gained and loss to be avoided is simply to do right by others and keep their own head above water in the process. I personally don’t think there is anything wrong with that. In fact, I think that’s all most people want.
But instead, what we’ve seen is a series of polices that have made it impossible for those who don’t put wealth accumulation at the top of their list to keep their heads above water and we see policies where those who have wealth are able to keep and grow their wealth at an unprecedented rate.
It has been the policies from the Great Depression through the 1970s that built the middle class in this country. it is those same policies that has pulled more people out of poverty and allowed for more people to achieve wealth (if that’s what they want) than ever before or since.
It is not punishing a person who makes $10 million a year to pay a significantly higher tax rate than the person who spends 100 percent of his income just existing.
Yes, government needs to do a better job of spending our money.
Yes, we need to gear programs that empower people rather than breed dependence.
Conversely, there is no reason that at this time in this great country there should be people who freeze to death in winter or die of heat exposure in the summer.
No on should go hungry – especially children.
No one should die from or become disabled by a preventable or treatable condition for inability to pay for care.
To say otherwise says more about an individual than any insults or charges an opponent can throw at them.

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Kyle Reply:
November 8th, 2011 at 4:24 am

I agree with you absolutely on some points. I work in the healthcare field so I know that there are most definetely illnesses that CAN prevent people from working and those people and the parents of those kids – who in my book are saints – should definetely recieve some form of compensation. However, I have also worked side by side, not in the military obviously, with a girl who had pretty sever down syndrome but still worked to earn her own living as a courtesy clerk at a local grocery store. I also worked with another girl who suffered from a form of mental retardation who not only worked as courtesy clerk making at the most 11 dollars an hour in Santa Cruz, CA which is not cheap and with the help of social security (I believe the handicapped qualify) was able to support herself on her own despite growing up in an abuse home and family environment. Obviously, I am well aware that that is not an option for everyone with a disability and I do think that it is our responsibility to take care of the people in our country who are truly in need. However, I believe that these people are the EXCEPTION and not the rule and it is very easy to medically prove if someone is physically/mentally able to work or not. I also agree that SOMETHING needs to be done about the healthcare situation in our country but that doesn’t change the fact that EVERYONE needs to pay taxes if we ever want to have a truly fare tax system. If someone makes ten mill a year I absolutely think it is unreasonable to take away 3.8 million of that JUST in income taxes. It takes away incentive to expand and create jobs and it also takes away incentive to provide employees with bigger raises, health care and 401k benefits. I still feel that people who “barely make enough money to exist” are there generally due to poor decisions they have made in their life. It doesn’t matter what those decisions where someone else made them and they have to live with them. Not to sound like a heartless son of a @#$&@ but fact of the matter is if you stick a needle in your arm, put your lips around a bottle, drop out of school/dont go to school, don’t use contraceptives, etc., than you now must have to live with those choices and should not rely on society to pick you back up when you have literally knocked yourself out of life. If those choices lead to you freazing to death on the street than that is one less freeloader in our society. I make less than 40 grand a year and I do still give to charity and I do not take a tax write off for it. Do the rich get to write off charity donations? Yes, they do, but there contributions are also so great that I believe many of the charities they donate to would not even exist without their contribuitons. I also agree with you entirely that our way of “helping” people needs to change. We should take the funds used in welfare and put them towards an after highschool education program to provide people better job training in entry level jobs. We also need to reevaluate the way we use our prison system. One of the groups of people that I feel the most sorry for are people that perhaps commited a crime out of desperation for whatever reason and honestly want to make a turn-a-round in there lives but literally can’t because they can’t get a job somewhere due to lack of education and a criminal record. A huge percentage of our prison population upon release reverts automatically back to a life of crime because they have no options. The prison environment also has just become a way for people to become better criminals. The only group of people in our country I feel truly sorry for though are the true victims of bad decision making, children. Children who are born to people who don’t really want them or even people that do want them but can’t afford them are the only people that are really victims of our society. I am also not “content with keeping my head above water” I would like to retire well before 60 or would like to save enough capital to start a small business and own a house or or maybe even two. I can do right by others without having the government tax my income and FORCE me to give my money to people that I feel don’t deserve it. In fact, I would probably give more money to charities that help real victims if I had more money after taxes to spare. The reason why people live in America and why even now people immigrate to this country is not so they can just float above water but so they can secure financial independence and freedom.

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LOL….I always laugh when i read these things. If you want to do better it is easy in America. Stop whinning and get off your butt. I work 75 hours a week and my wife workes 40. We have three kids and are in the 25%..almost 10% area. I am proud of the work we have done to get here. SO if you want to do better..just do it..and eventually it will pay off….otherwise..stop being part of the problem.

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jefndenver Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 3:43 pm

freestuff – I’m glad you’re proud of the fact that you and your wife work so hard. Let me ask, how long would your savings last if you became unable to work for six months or a year?
My point was not whining (which is how it is spelled by the way) since I was not discussing my own situation. I am in the 5 percent for current income but I have not always been there and I’m only just now starting to build for old age security and income security. But once I have my retirement secure and then I have ensured I can continue to earn an income while I do other things, then I don’t see the need to keep making more. In the mean time, I am proud to pay my taxes, contribute to charity, help family and friends, etc.
But I have not always been in this position. I, too, have worked very hard (while helping people along the way). I have worked in small businesses and very large corporations. I have been self-employed a couple of times my first at 22 and I currently own a business on top of my full-time work and volunteer time. I’ve been very poor and I’ve been in better financial situations than I am currently. I’ve had tough breaks and I’ve had some very, very fortunate opportunities. I am a smart, hard-working person. But I’ve also had a fair share of luck and been in a position to take advantage of that luck.
But probably my biggest strength is my ability to empathize with others. I don’t find it takes too much imagination to see how just a few bad breaks can devastate someone’s whole life. In part, because I’ve been there. But I’ve also pulled myself out with the help of others. It’s not hard for me to imagine that others can be in similar situations who don’t get the help.
I think too many people like freestuff suffer from a lack of imagination. They figure that just because they’ve never been in a situation that it is a character flaw for someone who is. Those who have been in a tough spot in the past and got through it feel that because they were able to do it, others should, too. There’s no room in their thinking for differences, no matter how small or profound, that may account for different outcomes for others in similar circumstances. It’s a very narrow view.
But my favorite is from those who say, “I’ve been in the same situation and no one helped me!” They are the ones who demonstrate, as human beings, just how small they really are.

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freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 4:46 pm

Well thanks for the responce. Well stated and I am glad you did so well. I feel the same way about helping others..as long as they help themselves. I don’t believe in giving to someone who just sucks off others. I have been there and as you dont know me you could not understand how poor I was, the drug abuse, physical abuse, and mental abuse in my family. I am not saying this to look for empathy but you seem to judge others by what you see yourself as. You sound like a nice generous person and I also constantly help those in need…but I expect them to help themselves too. One thing I can not stand is someone who does nothing and stands with their hand out. Sorry thats just me. Again thanks I enjoyed reading your responce

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freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 4:49 pm

Sorry response..spelled wrong..lol…I hate typing

jefndenver Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 5:30 pm

I, too, hate typing. I especially hate auto correct on my phone! :-)

I do judge others by what I see in myself but only as a starting point. We all judge others first by what we know. I think that was the larger point I was trying to make. Much of my experience comes from advocating for those less fortunate. I’ve heard their stories. I’ve also come to a conclusion that I know will probably sound strange to you. I don’t believe in “lazy” people.
think about it, who would want to be lazy?
Sure, there are some people who want the shortcut to a better life. But who would choose to be “lazy.”
Instead, I think what many people see as lazy are people who live with depression, attention deficit and/or hyperactivity disorder, myriad mental illnesses, etc. The problem is that most people don’t recognize their issues or don’t know how to deal with them if they acknowledge them.
You may even be one of the people who think such disorders are over-diagnosed and simply give people an excuse to be lazy, etc.
I think there are some people who get a diagnosis and treat it as an excuse. Then there are other people who get a diagnosis and are then set on the path to deal with it because they can now learn to treat it and/or better cope with it.
Probably my biggest issue is with the concept that people don’t change. It is the basis of so much unwillingness to help others because they consider them doomed to their genetics or their bad habits, etc. It makes it so very easy to ignore the plight of others by writing them off. Not only can they justify not paying for them, but also to justify in their own mind that it’s OK to do so.
For the many people it boils down to simple cognitive dissonance – they have competing interests and beliefs on one hand where they are told that in order to be good Christians (or whatever their faith or morals may dictate) that they are to help the least among us. But their self interest puts people in a position of ignoring or modifying some of their moral beliefs in order to advance these self interests. This dissonance creates such a conflict that people not only begin to justify their positions of self-interest at the expense of others but they very often do so with such ferocity that they actually convince themselves that they hate the others and that they deserve their hate and derision, etc.
I have spent a great deal of time with so many types of people. I started out my adult life a conservative. I’ve worked with very conservative people and I’ve worked with very liberal people. Mostly, I’ve worked with people who didn’t fit these limited viewpoints at all. They were just people who were trying to get by as best they could. Sometimes they succeed. Other times they fail. One thing that is universal to everyone is their ability to fool themselves into believe all sorts of things about themselves and others so they can sleep at night.
I know I’m no exception I just try to catch myself when I do it.
It just so happens that I AM the world’s greatest lover, humanitarian, gourmet cook and generally nice guy. And I’m sticking to that story.

freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 4:52 pm

Oh and sorry if you thought this was meant for you..I was just leaving a open statement of my thoughts…I was in no way meaning it toward you.

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freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 5:00 pm

But I Just read your response above mine…lol I can see how you would have taken it that way….

freestuff Reply:
November 6th, 2011 at 6:06 pm

LOL…you obviously havent watched my video..I am the worlds greates lover but you probably cook better than me…maybe..:}

Mountn_Man Reply:
November 12th, 2011 at 3:15 pm

Hey jefndenver,

I agree in part to what you said about having issues and not seeing them. Recently (over the last 6 months to a year) I’ve come to a new understanding of what “I call” lazy.

I get aggreveated to all ___ when I hear people whine and complain about their lives or jobs. Now I’m not talking major things like deaths in the family, or cancer or your kid just got caught with drugs. I’m talking people complaining about having to get up in the morning. Or they had to put a couple of extra hours in. Or they had to stand on their feet all day. Sometimes its that they want praise for doing just the basic things in life. They expect a cookie, just for doing their job.
In the past, I’ve viewed all or at least most of this as lazy. I’ve come to realize that not everybody has the same strength or stamina or chutzpah in life. They haven’t excercised enough.

Let me explain. A 300 pound out of shape guy walks onto a football field. No practice, no experience. He gets manhandled out there. Oh he’s got the size of a football player. but thats it.

Take another 300 pound guy whose been practicing and playing football. He does the manhadling.

Whats changed?

The skill and development. One guy gets manhandled and complains that, “its too hard”. The other guy easily overcomes.
Is football any harder for one than the other. Yes AND no. For the first guy, football is hard NOW, but not AS for the second. Why. Because the second one already did all the hard work earlier to make things easier now.

Another example. Lifting weights. 2 guys, both lifting 250 lbs. It takes the same energy for both to lift 250lbs. The difference is one guys been lifting and training and the other guy hasn’t. One guy has to put seemingly more effort in. Is it any easier? Same weight. Its just that one guy is used to lifting 250 pounds, where the other hasn’t. One is trying to expend all his strength NOW to lift it. The other expended his energy earlier.

So how does that fit my idea of work and how I saw lazy.
I’ve got a buddy. He drives semis. He’d complain about how hard his job is. And what a good worker he was.
I’d roll my eyes. I work construction.
One day he had a tree cut down in his yard. I came over to help. In a short while he was tired. He was going for the smaller stuff, and I grabbed the chain saw and went after the bigger stuff. He’d grab branches and I’d grab logs. When he was worn out, I was just getting going.
The point, he always complained about how tough his job was, but how good of a worker he was, but when it came time to do tough work, he folded. I work hard labor all the time. Its common place for me.
My buddy’s wife would complain about how far he has to drive to work. About 25 miles one way. I do 120 miles round trip 6 days a week.
Again, my point is, I’m used to the drive, he wasn’t. (Kinda funny, considering he’s a truck driver).

The point I guess is we are all used to certain ideas or thoughts about work or life. We don’t understand our issues until AFTER we are confronted by them.

A person who is used to working 40 hours a week is STRAINED going to 50. But somebody working 60 looks at it as a break. Is the 40 hour worker being lazy? Not really (Just a whiner).
Like you said earlier, they just don’t understand their situation in life and how to deal with it.

I have a cousin. (I’m still not sure SHE’S NOT lazy) Never had a real job, and she’s 49. She’s always babysat others kids. Recently life has hit her and her husband hard (mostly their own doing) They’re on government aid. She has to go in for job training, which she gets paid for. Other things in life come along, and she gets mad when they tell her she needs to treat her training like a job. Her training is about 20 hours a week. She complains about not having time to do things around the house. I want to b!t@# slap her. But I remember she’s at the learning curve of work ethic when it comes to a job. I’m already used to 60 hour weeks.

I’m still not convinced its not laziness, but I’m trying to give her the benefit of a doubt.
My issue is, I’m used to putting my head down and attacking a issue head on. For me its always been work a little harder or work a little more.
I guess for some, its not quite so cut and dry. Its a learning process for me.
I just hope I don’t choke someone before I learn it :)

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 12th, 2011 at 3:17 pm

By the way. I was just in Denver a week and a half ago.
I love it out there.

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I’m not a regular reader of this author, so I’m not sure if there is a tone of facetiousness inherent in this article, but the idea that getting the bottom 50% to pay $43/mo in taxes will solve any problems is ridiculous. If the author is serious, he has obviously never lived as one of the nation’s poorest. I have. I know what the loss of that “measly $43/mo” means.

Thankfully, I also made it up OUT of that bottom 50% and am now in the top 25%. Without government assistance, my family never would have made it. I have no problem paying a larger percentage of taxes than someone who makes half what I do and you greedy bastards that don’t care about your less fortunate American brothers and sisters ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

There are those that take advantage of the system, sure, but the majority just want a fair shake. If given the chance, they will work hard and pull themselves out of the gutter. But you folks would rather step on their hands than grab hold and help pull them up. Our society is destined to fail if this “Every man for himself” ideology continues. It’s NOT what this country was founded on.

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 12th, 2011 at 3:42 pm

Actually, if you read American history, you will find that America thrived because it was every man for himself. It was the one place in the world where people actually had that chance.

Being out for yourself DOESN’T mean people don’t help others.
Whats being resented today is the expectation.

There’s a lot of finger pointing going on in this country. Its not simply by the haves and have nots. Its also by the do and do nots.

Never before have the welfare rolls been so high. And its not simply because we have the highest population that we’ve ever had. We have a higher percentage of people on welfare.

We have people demanding things. And there ain’t no way to pay for them. And yet still people want/demand them.

This nation is $14.98 TRILLION in debt.
This years deficit alone is $1.6 TRILLION.
Spending has increased $1.1 TRILLION a year since Jan. of ’08

There isn’t enough wealth or income to tax.
in 2007 income tax revenues were $1.1 TRILLION
in 2008 income tax revenues were $1.0 TRILLION

We demand that government save us from all evils.
We demand that the rich foot the bill or they’re greedy or cold hearted.

Here’s the wake up call.
THERE’S NOT ENOUGH MONEY.

This years deficit is $1.6 TRILLION
If we already have income tax revenues of $1 TRILLION, doubling EVERYBODY’S taxes would only bring in another $1 TRILLION, still leaving us $.6 TRILLION a year short.

And we haven’t even talked about the added costs of Obamacare.
Or the $2.6 TRILLION Social Security trust that is empty.

Here’s another set of numbers 403 and $1.3 TRILLION
403 are the number of billionaires in the US.
$1.3 TRILLION is their combined net worth.

Thats worth NOT income.
Income is what you have come in year after year. Worth is the accumulation of income, year after year.

The point being. The wealthy don’t have the money to bail us out.
The entire wealth of all the US billionaires doesn’t even match this years deficit.

Taxing the poor more isn’t going to do squat.
But at the same time there isn’t enough money for current let alone proposed spending.

[Reply]

Having the tax-free 50% pay their fair share 15% would add $60 billion towards deficit reduction (your math). As challenged as the economy is now, is removing that $60 billion from the economy and giving it to the government the right thing? You sound like a conservative, but you would propose raising taxes and restricting the impact conservatives claim low taxes have on fueling the economy…and give that money to the government…You don’t believe a liberal taxation is fair and propose changing it to reduce the deficit, yet at the same time you propose the liberal response of raising taxes…

It sounds an awful lot like your true aim is to add a tax burden to the lower 50%, while at the same time removing 15% of the money they add to the economy–thus driving a struggling economy even lower–and reduce the effective income of the 50% even more…..It appears the only aim of your proposal is to further widen the gap between rich and poor. Sounds like you’re just an elitist revelling in bucking the concepts that made this nation great.

The only reasonable

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If I am asked by someone on the street “do you have some spare change” ? (implying that I should give some to them.)
If I give this person a dime, then this person is a “success”.
If I say “because I gave away a dime, I will put ten dollars in a folder to be opened at the end of the month” then I will be a “success”.
If the person that I gave the dime to says, “well you got ten bucks”, (implying that I am “rich” and that I should give more). I will give a penny, and because I did, I will say, “I will put one hundred dollars in the folder”.
If this person says “you have one hundred and ten bucks and all I have is eleven cents” (implying that I should give more). I will give a smashed soda can worth about one tenth of a penny and say “I have never seen a five hundred dollar bill in circulation” so I will put five hundred dollars in the folder.
If this person says “you have six hundred and ten dollars, all I have is eleven cents and a smashed soda can”!
I will say “your right, we’re a success”.

Some people can’t even manage eleven cents and a smashed soda can, while others can manage six hundred and ten dollars or more.

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jefndenver Reply:
November 7th, 2011 at 7:30 pm

Soandso:
Are you trying to make the point that not everyone is capable of successfully managing money, property … in some cases even the fundamentals of contemporary life? If not, I have to say I missed it entirely.
Regardless, we live in a society with an economy based on cash.
Just because one person doesn’t have the necessary skills to thrive in a monetary-based economy doesn’t mean that such a person should be doomed to live a sub-standard life.
I’d be OK with a system where the poorest of the poor don’t live any worse than the best treated pets in our country. The problem is that some people just plain don’t treat “other” people with any respect at all — not even a basic respect as human beings. But the same people can lavish luxury on their pets because they are THEIR pets – part of their life, family … whatever!

[Reply]

Some Soandso Reply:
November 8th, 2011 at 9:41 am

jefndenver:
Yes, you missed it entirely.
It is not as deep as you seem to make it.
When attaching meaning to value, to give a dime is the same as giving ten
pennies. Putting ten dollars into the future, is based on the principle of 100%
profit, that will be realized at the end of the month. The difference in prospective
is that, some people can envision the future, (time is money)while others are only
focused on what can be had at the present time. When he says “you got six
hundred and ten dollars” he fails to take into account that the end of the month
is not until the day after tomorrow. (tine is money)

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If the world economy is based on the value of a barrel of oil, (demand) then you need to use more oil this year than you used last year. (supply) That way, more and more products and energy are consumed and profit is generated. {a projected rate of growth can be leveraged} Speculation on growth by the means of debt/borrowing.

It is as if the world can no longer keep up with the amount of increase in oil use, or the ability to use more this year than last year on witch the concept of levering is based.

So borrowing time to pay more and more money for less and less oil will be only greater and greater debt. Until such time the world economy is biased on something other than the value of a barrel of oil.

An old saying is “nether borrower nor lender be”. It could be wise to take this idea to heart.

It could be that public debt should be limited to 1.0% of yearly income, not 99.0% of projected growth in income over 1000 years.

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ome ones math is wrong. You say you worked at McDonald’s for $3.50/hour now wages are 3 times that? or $10.50/hr. last time I checked the fed mim wage is $7.35/hr. at $3.50/hr you had to work 40 hrs. to earn $550/month. Now you suggest a second job? That’s 80/hr weeks. 16 hr days 5 days a week. no thank you. Do you work that? There is no defense. The top 1% needs to pay their fair share.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 8th, 2011 at 4:58 am

Uh, I just said wages are 3X higher now, so yes, McDonald’s here in San Fran pays $10 an hour.

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Josh 25% Reply:
November 9th, 2011 at 1:09 pm

If your life is all about making as much money as possible, then yes you take your butt to work for 80 hours a week. If thats all you are qualified to make, and you so desperately desire to be in the elite income earners then I don’t think you have a choice. Otherwise, get a stronger education or stay home and enjoy your life.

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 12th, 2011 at 7:05 pm

I work 60 hours a week. 6 days a week, 10 hrs a day. + 2-1/2 to 3 hr commute per day.
You do what you have to do to survive.

Minimum wage is just that. Minimum.
Thats for somebody with no skills, just getting into the work force. Jobs like that aren’t supposed to be careers. Those are for HS kids or retirees.
Its not everybody elses responsibility to carry you, unless you’re infirmed or handicapped.
Sorry, lifes hard. For everyone.
What right do you have to burden others when you’re not willing to do WHATEVER it takes to take care of yourself.

You can complain about me paying my “fair share” in taxes when you work the type of job I work and put the hours I do in, and drive the mileage I do.
Time to man up buckaroo.
This nations in a tough row, and your sucking on the teet of society just draws away from someone who REALLY needs it, and CAN’T provide for themselves.

Here’s a little news flash for you, about fair shares.
The top 1% make 20% of the income and pay 38% of the income tax.
The bottom 50% make 12.75% of the incom but pay 2.7% of the income tax.

That means the top 1% pay 190% of the tax burden vs income percentage.
The bottom 50% pay 21% of their tax to income ratio

Fair would be 20% income paying 20% tax
Fair would be 12.75% of the income and paying 12.75% of the tax.

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I just don’t get how the 1% became the bad guy here? Isn’t it a bit hypocritical when you rage towards corporate greed is fueled by individual greed? Complaining that you don’t have enough money, to those who have more than you is a bit like being a teenager. What did your parents tell you then? GET A JOB!!!!

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 12th, 2011 at 7:11 pm

Funny isn’t it. Somebody is greedy for trying to get a worthwhile return on the risk they take investing.

But somebody who hasn’tBOTHERED to develop skills or get an education that will get them hired, or WILLING to PUT IN the hours to provide for their family isn’t greedy.

One has worked for their money is greedy.
The other hasn’t worked for it and is expectant that the other owes them.

Welcome to bizarro world.

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“Tack on another side job that pays $1,200 a month and I’m in the Top 50%. If you are only working 40 hours a week or less and are complaining why you can’t get ahead, you need to seriously re-evaluate your work ethic and expectations.”

Lets look at that again.

Are you serious? Frist, jobs arent exactly easy to come by now days. Even jobs at McD’s are in high demand. Second, you are what’s wrong with America. I mean really, 40 hours a week isn’t good enough? Maybe I just read that wrong but unless I’m in a dire situation and the planet is being invaded by Aliens who want our natural resources I don’t see why we have to keep raising the “work ethic” bar to unreasonable numbers. Yea, I can say that going the extra mile when needed will get you a long way, but to make is sound like you should HAVE to do that every week to get ahead is simply insane.

What ever happened to having time to spend on the things that matter like raising your kids or developing your relationship with your soul mate. Or how about having acutal productivity instead of the mindless stockpiling of Zombie hours that seems to be a happening trend.

In truth I despise people like you. You act like you achieve more because you spend more time working while your child gets bullied at school, who by the way cant cope because they have no real parent around to help them through it. Then you get promotions and start forcing your Zombie ways on your employees expecting them spend less time with their families. You promote these unhealthy ethics at work and applaud when someone who can’t keep up with the mindless pace gets brought out. In turn, you are a bullie.

On behalf of America I request that you piss off.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 9th, 2011 at 5:41 pm

If only you spent time living overseas in places like India or China, you’d realize the world has changed. Definitely try learning a second language fluently, and you’ll get a better understanding of other cultures and what’s going on in the world.

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 12th, 2011 at 7:22 pm

Its not everybody elses job to carry your butt.

IF–IF you CAN’T get buy on 40 hours, by all means, YES work 50-60 or 80.
There are some of US who do.
Stay out of my pocket, if you ain’t man enough to take care of your family.
McDonalds ain’t a job to support a family on. Thats where you go to get a start or make a little extra.

Just the fact that you mention McDonalds says all I need to know about your work ethic.
A real man ain’t going to EXPECT a McDonalds job to support him and his family.

A real man will go out and work 1 or 2 jobs AND get and education, IF THATS WHAT IT TAKES to provide for his family.

If you’re not willing to do that…STARVE.
There are more people deserving of my help.

No jobs that will pay you what you think your worth? Start your own business. Somebody had to start theirs, that you think should be supplying you a job.

If they could take the risk, what makes you any more SPECIAL.
Or is wife jus a widdle bit to hard for you?
Lifes hard. Its even harder if your stupid (and or lazy)

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Capitalism requires there to be winners and losers. How hard you work may affect your position, but regardless, the system will ensure that some of us will be poor, some of us will be rich and the rest will fall somewhere in between. It’s a fallacy to think otherwise.

Which is why capitalism is merely an ideal. There’ll always be some degree of socialism in our economy. And yet people always want to argue economics from the left side of their brain.

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 12th, 2011 at 7:29 pm

Capitalism does not require there to be winners and losers.
Capitalism to be truely successful requires a win win situation.

The problem is there are SOME who want to take advantage of others.
And then there are some who feel that others owe them simply because they have more.

Somebody with less isn’t neccessarily a loser. If someone is taking advantage of them, thats wrong. If they refuse to do what it takes to provide for their families needs, then yes they are losers.

But someone content with a smaller amount isn’t a loser.
But someone who is content to work a smaller amount and still expect others to pay them more, IS.

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Robert Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 8:58 am

Yes, but in a capitalistic society, the money is suppose to flow to those who do the work. Does this happen in corporate America. Usually, but not always. All the pro capitalists will spout how guys like bill gates and Steve jobs are worth their pay (and maybe more). But when a corporation is cutting jobs, cutting salaries, sticking it to the stock holders and still paying the CEO and board members big bucks, people get mad across the spectrum. So, estimate your lifetime earnings, or the lifetime earnings of your physician or lawyer then compare to a corporate CEO bonus for one year. Did they really do more work in one year than you will in your entire life? Was their idea so valuable and did they really do that much good for society? So one can argue that a goodly number of these characters are really not worth their salt!

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I already work between 50 & 75 hours a week most of the time, but because I am on salary, it makes NO difference to my earnings. $28,000 a year, I have a degree and10 years experience, and my boss thinks he’s being generous. I keep looking but I am not finding any other openings in my area around here. And with the hours I am working, it is difficult to find time to look elsewhere or retrain. My husband got hurt at work, the Dr comp sent him to diagnosed it as aggravation of an existing condition, and rated his disability percentage at 0% – so now he’s out of work, in pain, we were already living tight because we were trying to put away for emergencies, savings is gone because of his medical bills that comp & insurance won’t cover, we had to drop medical coverage recently, and I still have absolutely no idea how we will cover the bills next month.

And I would still prefer a reasonable flat income tax. I just sales taxes were lower. 10% means things get expensive fast. And my state recently changed the tax law to extend it to additional items – second hand items, services – that mean frugal people pay more sales tax than they used to.

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Stop whining and crying for the rich. They live off the work of others. Labor(employees) create the wealth within a company which is then transferred to owners/shareholders. The top 1% in this country create ZERO wealth. They should be tax appropriately(IE 100%)

Labour was the first price, the original purchase – money that was paid for all things. It was not by gold or by silver, but by labour, that all wealth of the world was originally purchased.
Adam Smith – Wealth of Nations

[Reply]

Financial Samurai Reply:
November 12th, 2011 at 5:08 pm

The top 1% should be taxed 100%? Umm, OK. Where do you guys come from? Seriously.

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Reverened White Eagle Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 8:49 am

This looks like a good place to cut in Sam. I have read from both sides of the fence now because of what you started. Kudoes by the way.
But, I still haven’t read any workable ideas that everyone can agree on. How can we exspect our government to figure it out.
Even if big business left the white house, we the people can’t even figure out what to do but whine about it.
I have whatched our politicians act like children. Now I am reading from even my intelegent rich and poor fellow siblings, “It’s your fault. You should Pay! I didn’t do it. You should pay!”
What ever happened to the fellowship of America? The spirit on which we started this country. What happened to everyone is equal and has the right to all this country can offer.
(Boy that ones gonna come back to me!)
But, Seriously! Does anyone out there have any idea on how to fix this problem we have, so that everyone is happy?
Or is this it? Big money kills the world economy.
The rich will continue to exploit the poor.
And the poor will be poor for ever? And pissed off!
Hmmmm. Makes me proud to be an American!
And by the way, I have gone from the top 50% to the low, lower 47% because of someone else’s vote. And I still work 70 hrs a week.

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Reverened White Eagle Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 8:51 am

Sorry. Spell check wasn’t working for me.
The things we depend on now days.

Financial Samurai Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 10:00 am

Tell me more about someone else’s vote putting you in the lower 47%? 70 hrs is a lot to work and make less than 30k a year. What do you do?

Beck,

Yours is one posting I truely feel for. And I’m serious.

You mention the struggle you’re having. And it sounds like one above and beyond your doings.
I don’t hear you blaming anyone. And I don’t hear you EXPECTING others to make everything well and good. Working 50-75, THAT’S admirable, ESPECIALLY when others think its beneath them to do it.

I hope and pray that God brings someone around in your life who can help with the burden. Maybe to put a healing hand on your husband and a strengthening hand on you.

I ask God that he’ll make this Thanksgiving a holiday of Thanks-giving for you.

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Reverened White Eagle Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 10:30 am

Amen. How can we the lower 50% help? We all in this together. May God bless us all.

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The problem I have with the spreadsheet is the use of AGI. The AGI represents all of the methods that have been created by government to hide income. I think the data would be more realistic with Gross Income (including all types of gains). I think the distributions would change dramatically.

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 14th, 2011 at 8:40 pm

Does that include the family with 3 kids, who make $40K (gross) a year?

Husband and wife both take a standard deduction of $5800 each. Thats $11,600.
Next personal and depandent exemptions. Husband, wife and 3 kids. Thats 5 at $3700 ea, or $18,500.

So, just using a 1040ez form, with standard deductions or exemptions that everyone can get, they wipe out $30,400 of gross income. They’ve eliminated 75% of their income from being taxed. Their taxable income would be $9,600. Their tax would be about $1000.
Add to that that, they more than likely qualify for the EITC, which for 3 kids would be $5666. So, not only will they NOT PAY any tax, they’ll actually be given money from the government.

Lets watch a high income earner try to shelter 75% of his income, without spending anything to do it.

Back when the Bush tax cuts were put in, and everyone was getting their $400 checks from the government. My buddy and his wife didn’t get any. (And boy was his wife mad).
The reason was, they didn’t pay any federal income tax. (Waaaaaah-no fair. I didn’t know I had to pay taxes in order to get a rebate from the governmnet)
He’s got a small carpet cleaning business. He makes about $60-75k a year. So with his small business deductions, his mortgage deduction, his property tax deductions and personal exemptions for himself, his wife and their 6 kids, they paid no income tax.

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Very interesting converstion. Thanks for the real tax info sam.
Just a thought, but the top 5% are there by hiring the lower 50% that work their butts off so the top 5% are the top 5% because they don’t pay much more then minimum wage? Thus making it hard for those of us to even think of making into the top 50%.
Making money hand over fist by running a business must be way harder then the guy who has to shovel dirt that makes that business.
What if income was based on how hard a body has to work, the income charts would be the opposit. Sure some of the upper 50% put in 80 hours. I would like to see that in physical labor.

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 14th, 2011 at 9:37 pm

First, your thinking is flawed from the get go. Minimum wage makes up for a VERY small percentage of jobs in the work force. Heck, go to McDonalds and more than likely starting pay is higher than minimum wage.

Next. How much does it cost to open a McDonalds. You can’t buy into the franchise unless you can prove you have $1-$1.9 million in liquifiable start up assets.

Land costs money. Building costs money. Equipment costs money. Stock costs money. Then you must have money for payroll upfront. When the store opens, it might not have enough business to sustain itself for a few weeks or a few months.

All that money upfront before one hamburger is flipped.
Now, if this is the store owners first store, he/she is probably going to be working at the store for 40-60 hours a week. (HIGHLY unlikely its 40)
The average McDonalds has about a 10% profit margin. The average McDonalds does about $2.3 Million in sales.
Lets say an owner has $1.5 mil invested and works 60 hours a week, does $2.3 million in sales a year and has a 10% profit margin, or $230,000. Does that seem outrageous?
As owner/manager he’s working 60 hours a week. Whats a good pay for his labor? $75-$100k. Lets use $100k, that leaves $130k for return on a capital investment of $1.5 million. Just under 9%

Now lets look at wages. It doesn’t matter what the actual wages are for the discussion. If we are assuming the store has an average gross income of $2.3 million and a profit ration of 10%, or $230,000, we know that $230,000 is potential wage pay increases.

So, lets look at hours worked. Most McDonalds are now open 24 hours a day. At night staff is low 2-3 workers. During the day, 8-10-12. For discussion lets say the store averages 6 people on. Thats 6 people x 24 hours x 365 days a year.
6 x 24= 144.
144 x 365= 52,560 man hours.

In other words, raising the income of each employee $1 per hour would cost $52,560 JUST in pay. It would cost another $4,020.84 in added FICA taxes. Depending on the state and how it figures unemployment taxes, that could be another $10,000 in unemployment insurance.

Thats a total of $66,580.84 for a $1 an hour across the board raise.

Whether we are talking minimum wage or $10 an hour at McDs or the like, $1 an hour isn’t going to substantially change ones lifestyle.
On the otherhand, the added cost of $66,000 could make the difference of whether someone opens a McDonalds or not. Why would anyone invest $1.5 million into something where they’re not allowed to make a decent return on their investment?

Now theres another way of looking at it and that would be to raise prices to pay higher wages. I’d have to know what the percentage of payroll is to other costs to get a good idea. But if we use a 1 to 3 ratio, 1/3 of overall costs are labor, then we could ROUGHLY say that a 50% raise for everybody would be about a 17%-20% price hike.
A family of 4 that might be spending $20 at McDs now must spend $24.
If a family went to McDs once a week, thats an extra $208.
That $4 is going to hit a lot of people VERY hard.
Sales will drop.

Here’s the next problem. IF we increase pay at McDs to raise living standards, other places will also raise their pay. Thus, as McDs prices rose to pay its employees more, so would the prices of McDs suppliers. To the point where pay would eventually be back to the 1 to 3 ratio of payroll to material.
Mcdonalds would still be at a 10% profit margin.
And as costs for everything would rise, the pay raise for the employees would be negated by inflation.

[Reply]

Reverened White Eagle Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 10:14 am

Cool. Real quick on that calculator.
Just a couple of things. Inflation is happening with out the pay raises. McDonanalds is a multi-million, dare I say billion dollar corperation. And why do they have to make a 10% profit margin. Doesn’t the corperation have more money than God at this point?
Sure it has its stock holders that all make from what I can tell even with inflation, a decent gauranteed dividend without raising a finger. So why couldn’t they settle for 9% profit.
I can see the reasoning for new business’. But well established gauranteed income corperations.
There are a few things we can gauranty we will always have. Death, Taxes, Politics, Poor and Mc “D”s . I have a feeling China’s not gonna go away real soon. Oh and Wal-Mat so the poor can have TV’s, Refrigerators and Microwaves.
Can’t believe your a real mountain man. I don’t want to offend and please don’t take this wrong but it sounds as if you could have a mansion in the hills. Please say it isn’t so. Say you got this wisdom from pondering a fire late at night in the mountians. By a cabin. Or a lake.

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Mountn_Man Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 12:00 pm

Inflation is happening because of the government devaluing it. The printing presses are at full speed.

Look up the Wiemar Republic.

McDonalds itself might be a billion dollar company, but franchisees are seperate from the corporation. They buy franchise and licensing rights. It costs these INDIVIDUALS $1 to $1.9 million to start up.

On the other hand, lets look at corporate. Every corporation is owned by stock holders. So basically the same principal applies whether I own the franchise myself or I own stock in the corporation. Either way, the owner/shareholder wants and deserves to make a legitimate profit from his investment.

Now whether that profit is $100,000 or $100 million, makes no difference. The profit MARGIN stays the same.

The individual owning the franchise might have to put up $1.5 million, but as a stockholder, I can buy a portion of the company for $1,500. I can get the same margin of return that the franchise holder would get, but for ALOT less invested.

Thats where stock ownership is great for the little guy.

Now you might have a problem with corporate McDonalds yielding the return because its a billion dollar company. The issue is there are THOUSANDS of “little people” who own shares of McDonalds. I can buy $1500 worth of McDonalds stock and get the same return as someone else, who buys $15 million in stock. My 10% margin is the same as his.
That means YOU too can go and buy stock in McDonalds, and don’t need a million dollars to do it. Current stock price for McDs is $94.56. 100 shares would cost $9456.
That might be too much for a beginner to bite off. There are many good companies selling in the $5-$10 range. A person could buy 100 shares for $500 to $1000, and IF the company makes a 10% profit, you as a stockholder share in that profit, proportional to your investment.

The problem with your question on why companies can’t settle for 9% profit, is assumption.
Meaning this. There is no guarantee of profit. Businesses shoot for a profit margin, but market conditions affect things. Sometimes profits are high, sometimes low.

Never invest in the market money you can’t afford to lose.
I was 26 when I bought my first stock shares, about 20+ years ago. Paid $1000. Sold them for just under $900. A loss of $100, no biggy. That company isn’t in business today, and if I would have stuck with it, I would have lost my entire investment.
I did an investment partnership with some friends about 11-12 years ago. 8 of us put up $2500 each. Over time our investment fizzled and we all lost everything we put in.
These were in the days when I was making $25K to $50k a year respectively.

Today, my 401K is still about 20% under value from 3 years ago. Of course stock value and dividends are 2 seperate things.

Lets go back to your 9% comment. My earlier post I list out man hours, and how a simple $1 an hour raise would affect profit margin vs improving employee lifestyle.
I demonstrated that a simple $1 raise for every employee would drop profit from $230,000 at 10% return, to about $164,000. If $230k is 10% then $164k is 7.5%

That $1 raise was a 2-1/2% hit.
Now 2-1/2% percent overall doesn’t sound like much, but in the world of investing, thats a 25% loss.
10% is the profit margin, but it is 100% of income or capital gains.

Lastly, my name. I’m Mountn_Man because I LOVE mountains. Summer, winter, makes no difference to me. I’m VERY adept in a mountain environment. If you’re lost in the mountains with somebody, I’m the type of person you want to be lost with.
UNFORTUNATELY, I currently live in the boring state of Illinois.
Another reason why I’m Mountn_Man. I work in construction with some pretty big or hardened type guys, and commonly my coworkers make comments about my size. I might be only 6′ but wear a size 54 jacket. And when I wear a beard people say I look like a lumber jack. When something needs a little extra muscle, I’m the one people get. When weather gets cold and brutal, I’m the one slugging through. Snow, I love snow.
I don’t live in a mansion. Far from it. I live in a 1500′ ranch home in a VERY middle class neighborhood. I do have a little cottage about 1/2 mile from a small lake. This cottage is about 50% bigger than my 2 car garage. Definetly nothing special. But its mine.
Some years as far as work goes are good, some not so. ’09 an’10 were not so. Last year I worked just over 5 months.
This year is a different story. I’ve been working 6 days a week, 10 hour days, with a 3 hour roundtrip commute, for most of the year. By far my best year.
My view on taxes is whats good for one is good for another. I don’t expect anyone to do or pay anything I don’t do or pay.
If I pay 15% or 25% or 28% in taxes, I feel others should to. I don’t feel that somebody else who makes more than me should have to pay a higher rate than me.
Because of the hours I work,and the type of work I do, and the conditions and circumstances I have to work in, I have A REAL ISSUE with people who whine and complain about having to work hard or having to work long hours. Like I said, last year wasn’t a good year, this year is making up for it. But at a cost. I’m OK with that cost.
I’m the son of factory workers. My mom is a farmers daughter. My dad was fatherless and became an ex-con. My parents divorced after my freshman year of HS, and my dad had nothing to do with raising me, supporting me or getting me through school.

I’ve worked my way up from minimum wage to making over $150k this year. I’ve also spent 18 years as an adult volunteering in my church youth programs, so that other kids can have a role model like the ones I had.

Because of this, I have absolutely NO TOLERANCE for any entitlement mentality. I expect others, if they want what I have or what others have, to do the things that I have done or what others have done. I expect people to pay their own way. That means those who expect others to pay a higher percentage in taxes, should themselves then be paying that same percentage in taxes. ANything else is an entitlement mentality.

One thing I think I should clarify. Though I’m against all forms of entitlement, that does not mean I’m against charity or helping out. It seems that people of the liberal mindset, view us conservatives as greedy, heartless ogers. FAR FAR from the truth. Conservatives have shown time and again that they are the truely compassionate and charitable ones. I just believe my charity should come from my pocket, from my time and at my discretion. I believe that others should give as they feel they should, not at the demand of others.
I find that those who demand more from others, are the ones doing nothing or little themselves.

So after this, I think it makes it clear that I ain’t some cupcake living in a McMansion somewhere. Not that I wouldn’t mind having one. Mountn_Man is more than a name because I like the mountains. Its a way of life, an outlook.

Your logic is flawed. You assume that taxation, etc. is the problem. The problem is not how much tax each entity pays. I am a capitalist but and I am entitled to a reasonable effort for my SUCCESSFUL efforts. But if my windfall profit far exceeds my reasoned projections, that value is the added value that synergism with all elements of a cooperative economy provides. The windfall value inherent in that synergism means the GDP belongs to all of America. There is NO Need for taxes for ANYONE or anything if you view the economic situation correctly and act accordingly. Want more detail, say please!

Wolakota!
(peace)

[Reply]

Reverened White Eagle Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 10:40 am

Whats you plan Fred.

LIE!

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Reverened White Eagle Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 2:58 pm

LIE is lakota for light incase someone is reading it wrong.

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Reverened White Eagle Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 3:01 pm

Excuse me I meant to say ILE is lakota for Light. Sorry for the poor translation Fred. Fingers and key boards are not one of my strengths.

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Why should someone struggling to get by, pay as much money as a man who owns a vineyard and flies to Hawaii and is sending their children to private schools. The fact right now is that the rich are paying less than their fair share.
. . . .
The problem is that rich people control the media, and the media controls what people believe.

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I’m 17 (I know I am young and don’t pay income taxes but whatever I will in a year) I am concerned about the inequality that exists in the world, specifically North America. I am aware of the occupy movement and its values, I also know some of my fathers more wealthy friends who told me how they found out how to pay less taxes. I have to say it’s quite disgusting how greedy some adults get. Hard work has always gotten people far, but to cheat the system that balances our financial lives is wrong. I heard on the news today how my municipality (Westside) Is seeing a large tax spending growth 8x larger than the population growth (Tax payers) and where was all this tax money being spent? definitely not my community. infact 82% of that tax revenue went towards the council and government officials Benefits and increased salaries. This is a sickening truth since we are forced to pay taxes to help make the lives of our leaders better. in all, not much in terms of equality has changed since the days of King Henry.

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Reverened White Eagle Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 10:24 am

Very, very good. As a young and future tax payer, you need to get with others like your self and figure out what yo must do to save your selves. The old greedy generation that has control now must go down some how. Its your generation that must take control. I know a place where there are 14 million un parented children waiting for organization to run this world in the next twenty years. With you and you intelegent friends you can make this happen. With out violence. You just need a plan!
Interested?

[Reply]

ConcernedTeenager Reply:
November 15th, 2011 at 6:18 pm

yeah, i’m going to law school and running in elections. that’s the only way to make change in a country with a democratic system.

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This is pretty ridiculous. First off if it is so easy to be rich, then giving some of that money back into social programs shouldn’t be that difficult. The truth is, and this may come as a total shock to some of you, some people actually are given more opportunities. Sure if you earn more money you deserve to be able to spend it. If you followed the outlined plan and had work ethic and worked 80 hours a week and your only concern in life is piling up money because it is the only way you know how to measure success than you deserve to be able to spend your money on things you don’t have time to use. But at the same time you should be smart enough to realize that not everyone has the same opportunities, work ethic, intelligence, father etc. as you and therefore paying a higher percentage shouldn’t be that awful. The point of everyone putting in their fare share shouldn’t be measured as an absolute but rather measured relatively. If you make more money you should pay a higher percent of taxes. A higher percent IS your fare share. I don’t think that everyone should be able to live off of your money or that it is your responsibility to take care of everyone, but making sure that basic needs are met is beneficial for everyone (http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html).

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Lars Reply:
November 19th, 2011 at 1:15 pm

If someone doesn’t have the same work ethic as me then why should I have to pay more in taxes to help him. I understand, accept and am perfectly willing to help those unable to help themselves, but not those who are unwilling to work hard and defer gratification on luxuries until they have covered the basics. As far as paying my fair share, I’m already in the top tax bracket, how much more do you want?

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@Reverened White Eagle
Rev
Hmmmm, I own my company, and I work outside with the rest of the crew, doing everything and more than they do. I get there before them and leave after. I do all the bidding, paperwork and business end. I do physical work, and administrative. And it has been rewarding.

By the way, 12 hours a day isn’t much; 5AM to 5 PM, big deal, the kids are at school most of that time. I spend tons of time with my kids and even more with my wife.

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“Financial Samuri” my ass! you are an idiot! Did you actully hve to live off of yuour incomre at mcDonalds in that long past job? If so, how would you do thatyt in todays economy? How would you pay for just basic rent, food, medical care, and transportation costs? Why don’t you go and work at McDonals in San Francisco for $10.00 an hou for at least 6 months, and survive on just that income! If they give you health insurance as part of the benefits, see how that works out when you have to pay the copay and deductables out tht income! See if you can actually manage to eat a healthy diet on that income? Are you actually saying that if someone is poor, they should not have a child? Should onlythe rich reproduce? Perhaps you and hitler could have worked out a deal about the Master Race, to include income requirements, and not just ethnic genetics! HOW DARE YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE LOWEST INCOME GROUP IN THIS COUNTRY CHOOSE TO BE THAT WAY! You are social class bigot!!! I have worked from the time I was 14 years old! I have had to struggle all of my life just to get past the idiots like you who want to mke sure the rich get rticher, and fuck the poor! THE RICH LIVE OFF THE WORK, OFF THE SWEAT and struggles of the middle and low income individuals in this country! Who do you think build the roads, the houses, empty your garbage, process your sewage (not the feces you dump on this site, sorry to say)! The highest income people in this country who do not want to pay more in taxes (and there are huge number who are actually goin to congress to beg to hve their taxes increased to help their country); well those who don’t want to go back to the previous rates they paid and give up the pay off tax break increases they got from their buddy Bush; just what are they doing to contribute to the stability in this country? Perhaps by buying 9 houses, two yachts, and a helicopter; or paying $10,000 for a dress to wear to some social eventy, they are what; giving some jobs to the people who clean, cook, and drive for them? What about the fact that instead of a trickle down effect, they export as many jobs as they can to third world countries, so that they can increase their own coffers even more; while making sure that those countries increase their abuse of the environment through pollution, and who treat their workers worse than your dog is probably treated! Then, the theory is supposed to be that people in those other countries will have more income, then start to fight for their own rights as human beings… Well, that would all be great, exce that then the Big Company fat boys will just move on to the next third world country to abuse so they can continue to get things made cheaper and increase their own income! never mid the facty that this practice has also led to the importation of extremely poorly made and often unsafe merchandise; as long as the rich keep getting richer here, then all is well! If the tax breaks actually did result in an increase in jobs, don’t you think that would have happened by now, since the Bush tax give aways to the rich have been in effect about ten yeats now, but we are suffering the highest unemployment rates and the highest gaps in income equality since just before the greaty depression!
I realize that my comments will not phase in the slightest, and that you will rem,ain oin your little self centered world with the delusion thatg everyone can just “get a better job” if they want to make more, etc… By the way, hope you don’t claim Christianity as your religion, because if so, you certainly forgot to read the most prominent guidelines that were supposedly given by the Messiah of thaty religion!!! FEED THE POOR, CARE FOR THE WIDOWED AND THE SICK, and oh yeah.. It is harder for a camel to get through the eye of a needle; than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven! Perhaps that last statement from the “son of God” was referring tyo the fact that those who become so self centered and focused on their own successes as the most important things in their lives; even when those things come at the expense of others, are certainly missing the boat with the other instructions about being a just and caring person in this life!

[Reply]

Financial Samurai Reply:
November 16th, 2011 at 11:03 pm

Let me get clarification, are you against equality and helping pitch in to help our country?

What is it that you do in Seattle?

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Your description of what the top Americans make based on the Internal Revenue Service’s 2010 database as $380,354 doesn’t seem like what most people think of as the 1%. I know “take it up withe IRS”, but it would be interesting to hear your comments after reading the following article:

How the GOP Became the Party of the Rich By Tim Dickinson.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-gop-became-the-party-of-the-rich-20111109

The article describes a much different income strata than those making under half a million.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 7:10 am

Nobody has the exact figure. $380,000 sounds about right, and $1 million sounds wrong. Feel free to survey a thousand people around you and see if you can find 10 people who make over $380,000?

$380,000+ is the beginning of the top federal income tax bracket of 35% as of 11/17/11. When people enter that bracket, they will really start feeling the pain of taxes. And when all they see in the news are people who pay much less to zero taxes say they are bad people, that’s when things get out of hand.

Protesters are protesting the top 0.1%, not the Top 1%. However, don’t expect the protesters to care. Anything more than them is bad.

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Dubistein Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 7:32 am

One of the problems I have with reaction to the protests is presumption.
Here in my neck of the woods there were plenty of everyday working people
there that are fully aware of the taxes paid by people in that income range and
certainly don’t think of them as bad people, or that making more than they do is
bad. An observation of the status quo shouldn’t be construed as “a sense of
entitlement”, or get a job and stop leaching off the system”, etc. There’s a real
danger in blanket generalizations. But again, I would like to hear your
observations of the article mentioned when you have time.

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The Ant and The GRASSHOPPER: This one is a little different …….Two Different Versions …..
There are Different Morals

OLD VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and
laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.
The grasshopper has no food or shelter,
so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE OLD STORY:

Be responsible for yourself!

MODERN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat and the rain all summer long, building his house
And laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while he is cold and starving.

CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, and ABC
show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with
a table filled with food..
America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is
allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah
with the grasshopper and everybody cries when they sing, ‘It’s Not Easy Being Green..’

ACORN stages a demonstration in front of the ant’s house where the news stations film the group singing, We shall overcome.

Then Rev. Jeremiah Wright
Has the group kneel down to pray for the grasshopper’s sake.

President Obama condemns the ant
And blames President Bush, President Reagan, Christopher Columbus, and the Pope for the grasshopper’s plight.

Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has
gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper,
and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act
Retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and,
having nothing left to pay his retroactive
taxes, his home is confiscated by the Government Green Czar and given to the grasshopper.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper and his free-loading friends finishing up the last bits of the ant’s food while the government house he is in, which, as you recall, just happens to be the ant’s old house, crumbles around them because the grasshopper doesn’t maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow,
never to be seen again.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident, and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize and ramshackle, the once prosperous and peaceful, neighborhood.

The entire Nation collapses bringing the rest
of the free world with it.

MORAL OF THE STORY:

Be careful how you vote in 2012

[Reply]

Financial Samurai Reply:
November 19th, 2011 at 8:06 am

Lol, a little melodramatic don’t you think? I like it though!

I’m pretty certain Obama will win again 2012, sorry. Anybody who would like to bet me, I’m open!

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Mark Eibner Reply:
November 19th, 2011 at 8:23 am

well I feel it’s pretty on target- this type of “Head Trash” backwards thinking is going on every minute of every day

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jefndenver Reply:
November 19th, 2011 at 10:05 pm

Eibner – I can’t recall a single stereotype you may have missed. If only life were as simple as the bumper-sticker mentality you seem to have embraced.

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Mark Eibner Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 5:28 am

LOL, Grasshoppers, they’ll never change.

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It’s very interesting to read so many people complaining why they can’t get ahead. If you live in America, we have no excuse not to live a good life. We have so many opportunities, we’d have to be a lazy, knucklehead not to be able to make at least $33,000 a year!

Janitors make $60,000 a year, and so do trash men. Why can’t you?

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I am a 1percenter. My dad went to night school on the GI Bill after Korea. I went to public school. I studied hard in High School. I worked and studied hard in a State College, and though my parents paid for my first year at Purdue, I paid for the rest of my undergraduate education myself. I worked at least one job thru college and sometimes more. I continued working all thru medical school, which I also paid for myself with savings and loans. I paid off my school loans, ahead of time, without complaining about it. As a physician, I work 7 days a week and when I’m at home, I am on call for my patients all hours of day and night. I work at my office, clinic and multiple hospitals. I pay my taxes, other than standard deductions, i have no tax shelters or use any loopholes. So, my question to all the 99 preventers is this, here I am, a 1 percenter, what do you want from me? I have worked hard all my life, don’t I deserve to benefit from this and enjoy the fruits of my labor? Isn’t that the American dream, that someone who comes from working class stock can succeed? My success was not at any of your expense, so why do I owe more than I already pay? I’ll leave with a quote paraphrased from Margaret Thatcher-” The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 19th, 2011 at 1:44 pm

Thanks for sharing that quote. Never heard of it, and it rings true.

I love how politicians like to decide how to spend OTHER PEOPLE’s money on their own desires and redistribution policies.

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How many times have we heard: “The rich don’t have enough. The poor have too much.” Pretty impressive propaganda. Forty years of that philosophy has left us in pretty sorry shape.

A 15% flat tax is arbitrary. Why not 50% flat tax? Someone making a million dollars a year will still have 500,000. Hardly a sacrifice. Someone making 33,000 will have 16,500. Not much to live on for half the population of this country. If all the millionaires actually got just half a million it wouldn’t be so special would it, to paraphrase the author. If that high tax rate brought in more than government spends now, then rebuild the bridges, dams, rails, schools that are decaying, move the economy into sustainable mode. To do the jobs hire the millions the economy has thrown out of work resulting from the self-serving decisions of the billionaires and their government employees. And pay sufficient wages that no one is left out in the cold. Oh yeah, and stop the rich from buying the government.

In the 1950′s, when the U.S. economy was growing rapidly, the rich paid up to 90% marginal tax rates. So for the rich to pay high taxes is hardly an unbearable burden on the economy or on entrepreneurship. In fact I’d argue that the economy grew in part because the rich were made to pay more.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 6:45 pm

I’ve actually never heard that quote before.

So long as everybody is paying a 50% flat tax, I’m down with it. It’s all about equality.

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Forgetting the fact that the “average’ American is indeed well off when compared to some, income distribution in the United States is comparable to that of Iran and Russia, while upward mobility is less than that of most industrialized nations including England (which is essentially a class system). Meanwhile, the concentration of wealth in the US continues to skew badly in favor of the top 1% due to remarkably low Capital gains tax rates. Bottom line – this is not a sustainable paradigm. The economic problems in the US stem from reduced demand and taxing the bottom 50% – besides resembling the blood from a turnip approach– will suppress demand even more. Ben Stein, hardly a liberal, had it right — it is class warfare and guess which class is winning?

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The government needs to stop spending. We dont have an income problem. We have a spending problem!! Ed

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This post is false information. The poster should do more research before ranting false accusations. As a single 19 year old male I work 60+ hours a Week at 11.25$/hr I can submit proof tha I pay around 35-40% taxes on overtime pay and 21% taxes on regular pay. I can tell you I work longer and harder from the time I started working then this reporter ever has if he worked at my job he would in no way be able to complete the tasks that are required. To say we are lazy and feel entitled is a slap in the face. I say you are lazy. You are entitled. Your work is not worth what you are paid you are a leech to society filling peoples heads with lies about what hard work is you wouldn’t last a day in my shoes I make 20000 a year. I struggle to survive I’ve gone hungry for weeks with no money but I’ve never to a handout.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 21st, 2011 at 9:21 pm

Please pshow where I write you are lazy and entitled? Are you sure your guilt is not speaking for you?

You do not pay 30-40% in effective federal taxes at your income. If you try and do your own taxes you’ll see at year end exactly what you pay and it’s not even close.

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The economic problems in the US stem from reduced demand and taxing the bottom 50% – besides resembling the blood from a turnip approach– will suppress demand even more.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 7:42 am

That’s the point. We aren’t taxing everybody. Let’s have skin in the game for all and improve this great nation of ours!

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