Financial Samurai

Nice post. I always like to ask candidates why they’re looking for a job, why they left their last job, and why there are gaps between jobs on their resume. I like all of your points, esp. the one about not saying “I was living my dreams, being unemployed.” I had someone basically try to get fired just so they could collect unemployment – not cool!

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Financial Samurai Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 11:43 am

That’s not cool. However, that is someone long-time employees and employers agree to if there is a solid relationship. Getting fired means no benefits. Getting let go means lots of benefits from the gov’t and from the firm.

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Good advice, Sam. I’ve had a couple candidates admit to a low-wage job because they had to pay the bills, and there’s absolutely no shame in that. I’d also like to hear someone say that looking for work is their other full-time job, and talk about the number of resumes they’ve sent out and contacts they’re trying to make. I had one guy respond the question about the gaps in his resume say that he was waiting for the right opportunity, the offers he was getting just weren’t up to his standards. He didn’t get a callback.

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Dan Brown Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 7:55 am

Like this post. There’s no problem with being honest.

I quit my job once and traveled the world for four months. When I came back and started having interviews, a lot of the times I was asked what I had been up to. Pretty much every time I would respond with “travelling and finding myself”. I would also try and spin that into how travelling on my own made me a better individual suited for the job (i.e. with more analytical and on-the-spot thinking skills).

Interviewers value someone who thinks outside the box, and there’s no better time to do some serious internal thinking than when you’re unemployed.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
August 26th, 2011 at 6:16 am

Good last point there. 4 months is not that long either, so I think you were lucky too.

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Very good advice. It’s important to be honest which you mentioned. A lot of the things you said sound great, but don’t bother with them unless they’re true. Don’t tell a recruiter that you’ve had a family emergency to deal with if you really didn’t, because then later it might inadvertently come out, and recruiters are trained to sniff out BS anyways. The first answer is always a good one!

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I won’t be using your comment section for self-help and personal development (I thought that line to be hilarious) but I would definitely enjoy some insight on how a recent-graduate (or anyone, really) should highlight this:

“* Start an online company. Showing something online and highlighting the marketing, branding, and revenue you’ve generated is a very powerful initiative. I know that if I was unemployed for 12 months, I can show the employer Financial Samurai and Yakezie.com and talk for hours about the initiative. ”

in a resume?

How would you list that so that it grabs their attention/makes them want to bring you in for an interview? How do you separate these “side gigs” from the guy who says “oh, I sold golfclubs I had in my garage on ebay.”

As a hiring manager, what do you want to see in someone’s resume that includes their own business? Do you see them often? And is it something that makes a resume stand out?

I realize I just hit you with a million questions, but I’d really enjoy your opinion on this.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 2:08 pm

What are your thougts JT? Last time I responded you ran me over and disagreed, so I’d rather just listen to you. Thx

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JT McGee Reply:
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:30 am

I don’t know. That’s why I asked.

Last time I was just engaging in conversation, I didn’t realize you would take it so personally.

I was pretty cordial in the matter having said this “Sam’s opinion on a resume is the equivalent to asking a Harvard math professor what math class he/she thinks a 6th grade student should take. Should we be surprised if that math professor replies to the question, “calculus at the very minimum?” Probably not, that’s consistent with their level.”

And never once did I say you were wrong, nor did I disagree; all I said was that I wasn’t aware GPA was important for jobs that aren’t in the top 1-5% of the earnings curve. You took those words as my acceptance of just “average,” belittling me with “there’s nothing wrong with being average,” ignoring the obviously huge middle ground that exists between the top 1-5% and the middle 20%.

I’m sorry I asked.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:34 am

JT, I actually don’t take anything personally. I just don’t have much time to respond to you who does not bother to listen. But, I didn’t want to be rude not acknowledging your question.

You don’t think your Harvard teacher analogy can be construed as insulting? If you don’t see any lack of respect in that comment, debase what I’m advising on the resume/job front, and think as a student you are qualified to tell me what’s important to hire, I really can’t spend the time responding to you like I am now. I would rather just wish you good luck, sincerely. I recommend you have a conversation with MD at Studenomics.com. He’s a good guy who can help you much more than I can.

BTW, “middle ground” = “average”. That’s not belittling, that’s just the definition.

JT McGee Reply:
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:45 pm

I comment here because I am very much interested in your insight and your perspective, hence why most of my comments are questions.

The resume questions weren’t just from left field, they’re questions a lot of people have, and questions to which the internet offers few answers.

Here’s 42 people who say putting self-employment on their resume killed them, just as an example: http://www.indeed.com/forum/gen/Resume-Tips/do-employers-think-self-employment/t48412

That’s just one little tiny part of the internet. Maybe you have some insight into how these people (and probably tens of thousands of others) screwed up, what they failed to highlight, or why that viewpoint is wrong?

Or maybe how, from your experienced perspective, anyone can make their own business a resume asset instead of a resume liability?

There isn’t a whole lot of information about how to present self-employment/side businesses on a resume. The little information that is out there is typical SEO spam, the rest is from the perspective of people who think it was that string of self-employment that has killed their job outlook, not from someone who has experience in hiring.

That’s why I asked. Not because I want to argue about it, and definitely not because I want to debate it. I asked because I simply wanted to know and I thought, having already looked for information elsewhere with no success, there wasn’t any better place to ask than here.

Financial Samurai Reply:
August 26th, 2011 at 6:19 am

I’d love to see someone’s own business on their resume bc it shows initiative. I’d ask tons of questions about it and I would want to make sure that you would be focusing all your workday attention on my company and not have interference.

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JT Reply:
August 26th, 2011 at 9:01 am

For what it’s worth I had an interview a month or so ago. Having the business history, and being able to relate the business to the interviewer’s company earned me a lot of respect off the bat.

However, he did want to make sure that if I joined the firm I would be dedicated to my job. He said, “Look, I don’t care what you do on the side. We have a lot of people who do all kinds of jobs on the side. But at work, it’s work. We don’t hire people to serve as a funding company for their side ventures.”

Apparently he had interviewed others who had businesses, and they were clearly more interested in their business (software, in this case) than the firm’s business (financial markets).

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Hey that pictures looks just like our cat Jasmine!

Great tips Sam. But let me ask your opinion on side businesses. Do you think running an online business on the side should be included on your resume? It can certainly be used to show initiative and technical knowledge, but I wonder if the hiring manager would see that as a negative? He might be concerned that you’d be less dedicated to his business if you’re already working on your own. What are your thoughts?

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Financial Samurai Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 9:44 am

There’s nothing on the side Mike. The situation is you’ve been unemployed for “a while” and you decided to create something from nothing. Once you get your ideal job, then you can just focus on that and not mention your side business anymore. And if s/he asks, just say the job comes first.

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Whatever story the candidate gives must make sense to the interviewer. One should test out their story with some trusted friends before an interview. Even outlandish stories can work if they make sense. The important theme is you did something during unemployment versus just collecting a check.

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Good tips on what to say on interviews. It’s always better to be proactive during unemployment instead of sitting in front of the computer. I’ve seen a whole range of actions from taking time off to travel around the world to just hiding in the computer room.

If I was the interviewer, I’d rather hire someone who was doing something while they were unemployed. Working the KFC fryer is better than sitting around.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
August 26th, 2011 at 6:19 am

Amen to that. I would be MOR motivated to hire the KFC guy for sure. I would be inspired.

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i agree that proactive-ness is the best approach, no matter what is it that one engages in. sure, working for $8 an hour flipping burgers is respectable if one does it to plug in the gap and fulfill life’s needs, but so are alternative activities. if a candidate told me they took advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity to travel the world and gain invaluable experiences, i would equally view them as proactive. it also displays several other intangibles/qualities.

honesty + tact (a lot of it) = usually does it

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I agree Sam, it’s important to highlight other activities during your downtime, and they don’t have to be job related, just show that you didn’t sit on the couch eating potato chips for 6 months. If you decided to take a mental break from the grind that’s ok as long as you applied yourself to something. If you decided to get your scuba certification and head down to the Great Barrier Reef for a few months, great! It makes for a cool story and shows that you took advantage of the time off.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
August 26th, 2011 at 6:20 am

That would make me envious and I wouldn’t hire him! Lol

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I think the employment gap on the resume is something many aren’t thinking about (but should) when they decide to extend that unemployment longer than necessary.

I think volunteering is a great idea, as is getting an education. What you can’t do is just sit there and take in the checks while you wait for the market to improve. You have to improve yourself too.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
August 26th, 2011 at 6:21 am

Volunteerig is one of the best ideas for sure. Mucho pluses in my column!

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My spouse was unemployed for 17 months. It was a looooong 17 months. He did receive unemployment, and went on a handful of interviews. That being said, it was put on his heart to delve deeper into the bible ( He is a Sunday school teacher) and grow closer to God. He spent several hours a day studying. And catching up on DVR’d TV shows. Not too bitter, am I?

There was no argument against that. Believe me… I tried.

He is employed now and has been for almost a year. I am grateful for that.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
February 22nd, 2011 at 10:23 pm

Hi Lisa – What was the no argument against that, exactly? Not sure what you’re getting at.

Were you somewhat bitter/annoyed he was unemployed for 17 months, or not? Sounds like he put his time away from work to very good use.

17 months seems like a lot. Hope he got to collect unemployment that entire time! I can’t wait to be able to collect from the gov’t myself.

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Lisa @ Cents To Save Reply:
February 23rd, 2011 at 4:41 am

Hi Sam,

I was a tiny bit annoyed/bitter that he was unemployed for 17 months with govt benefitw.. But, I think those feelings were compounded by my own work situation, a 7% pay cut, drastic reduction in hours and a slight feeling of helplessness. (Can you say Pity Party?)

Anyway, no worries! Looking ahead to brighter days!

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Financial Samurai Reply:
February 23rd, 2011 at 10:16 am

Oh, I see. I guess how I’d be a little jealous, HOWEVER, every time I would see my spouse get a paycheck from the gov’t, I’d celebrate! So, actually, I’d be very happy :)

17 months is a long time though indeed.

Good ideas; it’s good to show you were “in control” during period of unemployment and may have been out for a while partially on your own volition – because you had prepared, had money set aside, could do what you needed to do to re-enter the workforce on the right terms.

On the topic of “what to say”, I’m curious what phrase people use now when talking in casual conversation about being unemployed. It used to be “between jobs”. Of late, I’ve been hearing “I’m in transition”. It’s a little more ambiguous but I figured out what they meant after I heard it a few times. What is the new phrase you’ve been hearing?

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Financial Samurai Reply:
February 23rd, 2011 at 10:17 am

The new phrase I’ve been hearing is “I was let go.” In other words, there’s less use making excuses since the downturn was so bad.

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I would say: you ever see that movie Castaway? Yeah….it was kind of like that.

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Very good advice.

I have a friend who was unemployed for a while (which is a red flag), but when I gave his name to recruiters calling about jobs, I just told them that his wife had a good job and didn’t want to relocate at first. As a result, his job search was too narrowly focused. She has since come around and is willing to move so now he is looking more broadly. Again, it’s the truth, but it also makes sense why he would still be a good candidate and also on the market for too long. He did end up landing a great job eventually, but it will require eventual relocation.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
August 26th, 2011 at 6:21 am

Great to hear and awesome you helped out your friend!

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Very good article. Made me smile a lot. You can write really funny, Sam! :-)

Great advice. People should be proactive but sometimes I think they get too gloomy and eventually too depressed. There are not a lot of opportunities out there (at least in Utah). My friend’s husband was unemployed for only a month and he already sounds like giving up. Too sad.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
February 24th, 2011 at 7:28 pm

Thanks! Good to mix some humor in sometimes yeah?

After only one month and depressed? He has a full 94 more weeks to collect unemployment! Sounds good to me!

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“The truth of the matter is, we’re likely not that special and deserve exactly what we have coming to us.”

Ha! Reminds me of a funny line I heard on Arrested Development.

It’s important to not appear as if you’ve been sitting on your bum for a prolonged period of time. I think it’s imperative that you’re able to demonstrate that you have the characteristics of a good employee even while you’re unemployed. Volunteering, as you mentioned, is a good example of that. Who knows? Maybe it could lead to a job or the development of a new skill set. It also increases your self worth to feel like you’ve made contributions to society. This confidence will come across in your interviews.

One thing I notice about many people who are unemployed for a prolonged period of time is their lack of preparation for the interviews they do get. You should carve a couple hours out of each day to rehearse what you’re going to say to interviewers and analyze how your experience and abilities are beneficial to a prospective employer. Study books on common interview questions. Research creative ways to find a job. I personally like the book ’48 Days to the Work You Love’ by Dan Miller.

The most important point is to be aggressive in your job search. Don’t expect companies to just fall in love with you because you’re awesome. It’s a competitive market out there.

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Exactly! No one wants to hire a guy who’s been sitting around doing nothing, waiting and hoping for things to happen. You need to do something! Be self employed and not unemployed, or leverage that time into something productive. Otherwise a huge gap in employment will be a red flag. Is it fair? Does matter, it is what it is.
So yes, employers will discriminate, and can you blame them? I know I sound like a dick, but when I quit PwC in 08 I had the WORST possible timing. I did it in May right before the econ collapse that shook the financial world.
My plan was to leave my high paying high hour job and take something that freed up my time to work on my web projects. Ideally something that paid in the high $30,000 low $40,000 mark.
I was only making around $1,200 a month online, not enough to live, but enough to hold me over (with savings) for a few months while I job searched…and I could not get the kind of job I though I could get! IE: a dude with big 4 experience and a masters degree in normal circumstances is in high demand.

My goal was to build my online income which comes via search engine marketing into a full time income, but it was not there yet and I need a job that did not gobble up all my time, so I took one, at a warehouse making $11 bucks an hour, and I took another one, as a professional hire for for $14-$17 an hour, and I took another one after that.
You see, I did what I had to do to get to where I am. That included taking jobs that were not commensuratre with my education. Whatever, I worked, and busted my ass to make things happen for myself. Others need to do the same to not only survive, but to thrive.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
August 26th, 2011 at 6:22 am

Love your goals and your drive David! You have a great story to tell and perhaps you’d like to share it hear on FS one day. I love your energy and no BS!

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Ha ha, love the don’t list….. Some friends and I wanted to start a hidden camera show where we purposely bombed interviews (we thought this up as young teens so I understand it’s not a great idea in the midst of all the crap reality TV)…. Your don’t list would have worked well.

I have not been to an interview for a long while but always found being upbeat helped a hell of a lot and I always did pretty well in general. When I was on hiring teams too I always loved to hear people who took action and never cared if they had done stints in what were considered low level jobs.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
February 27th, 2011 at 6:06 pm

You can and should still do the hidden camera thing! It will go viral in PF land! :)

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Sam! I’m sorry that it has nothing to do with your post… but the picture really looks like my cat!

Other than that, the “what to say” list is helpful although it is sometimes hard to be convinced it is the truth.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
February 28th, 2011 at 1:36 pm

Looks like your cat bc it is your cat! I’m a catnapped.

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At my place of employment layoffs don’t always make sense! I’ve seen them layoff people that were wonderful at their job, then rehire them once the market picked up. Strange huh…

I had a friend that got laid off at the beginning of the down turn, he enjoyed unemployment, then 2 year later (and 2 month before his unemployment was to run out) he got a job. I was wondering how he would get past the 2 year hole… But, my friend has a high level of charisma and is a great communicator. He had them eating out of his palms.

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Sam, i would be interested to know how you, as a hiring manager, make decisions between who can do the job most competently and who will be a good team player.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
August 21st, 2011 at 10:59 am

Extensive channel checks via references. This is why you never burn bridges. For an important position I’m hiring for, I will call at least 3-5 prior references and ask them to verify the resume and make sure they are good people.

We also have the potential candidate interview as many different types of people at the firm as possible. Averages around 10-15 , but can go up to 30.

After that, it’s a leap of faith. We hope for the best.

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I was a hiring manager before I retired. I agree with some of the remarks above: prepare well for the interview – know what my company does, what skills it uses and how your education and experience will match to those things. Be honest – hiring managers know lots of people lost jobs – but show how you have learned new skills, kept up to date with your industry or polished up old skills while you were off. No one catch phrase will help you get that job.

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If I didn’t find something to my liking, I wouldn’t go work at KFC (well, I might work some weekends at the warehouses!). I would hunker down on expenses and focus on side streams of income, and pour myself into that. There’s no reason to settle for something where you will be unhappy later unless you really have no other choice.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
August 26th, 2011 at 6:23 am

But KFC is so good! :). True. Now that I have the online world to work on, I’d do the same as well and focus on this direction.

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The “what not to say” section cracked me up. I wonder if people would really say these things. I think a lot of people who are job searching worry when they have rather large gaps in their employment, so the “what to say” could be really benefical to them.

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Financial Samurai Reply:
August 26th, 2011 at 6:24 am

Glad u got a laugh! There is so much TO DO if one doesn’t have job, gotta seize tHe moment.

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This reminds me of what I would say when someone asked me about my previous employment back in 2001: “I worked at a dot com.” That right there would bring nods and understanding, and they’d move right along!

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Great post. You’re clearly a problem solver, like me.

I second Darwin’s post above about the appeal of people who seem to be in control. People want to work with people that can take care of themselves, have integrity, take action and add value to a team. I know I do!

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