Every time there is a government rescue package, I’m left scratching my head wondering where all the money really goes. During the 2008 – 2009 financial crisis, Congress approved a $787 billion economic stimulus package that basically went to three things:
- $288 billion in tax cuts
- $224 billion in unemployment benefits
- $275 billion for public works
Getting up to 99-weeks of unemployment was pretty huge for those who lost their jobs. This was the time when the term “funemployment” emerged since so many Americans lost hope in finding work and decided to purposefully take an extended break while collecting a paycheck during this difficult time.
But the money that went to tax cuts and public works seemed like it just disappeared into thin air. When the federal government announced years later that the bailout money for many of the largest financial institutions had provided huge returns, I’m not sure any one of us saw a penny. At least the economy recovered.
With the Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) part of the $2 trillion CARES Act, however, I truly believe this will be one of the most impactful rescue packages the government has ever implemented. The other one was FDR’s New Deal between 1933 and 1939.
The PPP promises to lend out and forgive
$349 billion $659 billion (due to another round that passed on April 24) to small businesses with under 500 employees if these small businesses keep their payroll.
If you’re not a small business owner, you might be thinking who cares about small businesses. However, I assure you that providing direct relief to small business owners is paramount for our economy.
According to the Small Business Association, over 99 percent of America’s ~30 million firms are small businesses that employ roughly 59 million Americans or 47.5% of the employees. The vast majority (88 percent) of employer firms have fewer than 20 employees, and nearly 40 percent of all enterprises have under $100k in revenue.
In other words, small businesses are our country’s heart and soul! Companies like Apple, Coke, and Clorox get all the headlines, but it is the small business we must do our best to protect.
What Is The Paycheck Protection Program?
Here is the PPP factsheet from the Treasury’s website. There are many articles about the PPP, so I thought it best to highlight what it says verbatim below. I’ll then clarify several confusions and provide an example that shows how a small business can benefit.
The Paycheck Protection Program (“PPP”) authorizes up to
$349 billion $659 billion in forgivable loans to small businesses to pay their employees during the COVID-19 crisis. All loan terms will be the same for everyone.
The loan amounts will be forgiven as long as:
- The loan proceeds are used to cover payroll costs, and most mortgage interest, rent, and utility costs over the 8 week period after the loan is made; and
- Employee and compensation levels are maintained.
Payroll costs are capped at $100,000 on an annualized basis for each employee. Due to likely high subscription, it is anticipated that not more than 25% of the forgiven amount may be for non-payroll costs. Loan payments will be deferred for 6 months.
Who Can Apply For The Payroll Protection Program?
All businesses – including nonprofits, veterans organizations, Tribal business concerns, sole proprietorships, self-employed individuals, and independent contractors – with 500 or fewer employees can apply.
Businesses in certain industries can have more than 500 employees if they meet applicable SBA employee-based size standards for those industries.
For this program, the SBA’s affiliation standards are waived for small businesses (1) in the hotel and food services industries ; or (2) that are franchises in the SBA’s Franchise Directory; or (3) that receive financial assistance from small business investment companies licensed by the SBA.
What Do I Need To Apply?
You will need to complete the Paycheck Protection Program loan application and submit the application with the required documentation to an approved lender that is available to process your application by June 30, 2020. Click HERE for the application.
You will also need to provide your lender with payroll documentation.
Your business bank should have contacted you about the PPP process. If they have not, I highly suggest reaching out to them ASAP to apply.
Do I need to first look for other funds before applying to this program?
No. We are waiving the usual SBA requirement that you try to obtain some or all of the loan funds from other sources (i.e., we are waiving the Credit Elsewhere requirement).
How long will this program last?
Although the program is open until June 30, 2020, we encourage you to apply as quickly as you can because there is a funding cap and lenders need time to process your loan.
How many loans can I take out under this program?
What can I use these loans for?
You should use the proceeds from these loans on your:
- Payroll costs, including benefits;
- Interest on mortgage obligations, incurred before February 15, 2020;
- Rent, under lease agreements in force before February 15, 2020; and
- Utilities, for which service began before February 15, 2020.
What counts as payroll costs? Payroll costs include:
- Salary, wages, commissions, or tips (capped at $100,000 on an annualized basis for each employee);
- Employee benefits including costs for vacation, parental, family, medical, or sick leave; allowance for separation or dismissal; payments required for the provisions of group health care benefits including insurance premiums; and payment of any retirement benefit;
- State and local taxes assessed on compensation; and
- For a sole proprietor or independent contractor: wages, commissions, income, or net earnings from self-employment, capped at $100,000 on an annualized basis for each employee.
Does the PPP cover paid sick leave?
Yes, the PPP covers payroll costs, which include employee benefits such as costs for parental, family, medical, or sick leave. However, it is worth noting that the CARES Act expressly excludes qualified sick and family leave wages for which a credit is allowed under sections 7001 and 7003 of the Families First Coronavirus Response Act (FFCRA) (Public Law 116–127).
How large can my loan be?
Loans can be for up to two months of your average monthly payroll costs from the last year plus an additional 25% of that amount. What’s the maximum PPP loan a business can get? That amount is subject to a $10 million cap. If you are a seasonal or new business, you will use different applicable time periods for your calculation. Payroll costs will be capped at $100,000 annualized for each employee.
How much of my loan will be forgiven?
You will owe money when your loan is due if you use the loan amount for anything other than payroll costs, mortgage interest, rent, and utilities payments over the 8 weeks after getting the loan.
Due to likely high subscription, it is anticipated that not more than 25% of the forgiven amount may be for non-payroll costs.
You will also owe money if you do not maintain your staff and payroll.
Number of Staff: Your loan forgiveness will be reduced if you decrease your full-time employee headcount.
Level of Payroll: Your loan forgiveness will also be reduced if you decrease salaries and wages by more than 25% for any employee that made less than $100,000 annualized in 2019.
Re-Hiring: You have until June 30, 2020 to restore your full-time employment and salary levels for any changes made between February 15, 2020 and April 26, 2020.
How can I request loan forgiveness?
You can submit a request to the lender that is servicing the loan. The request will include documents that verify the number of full-time equivalent employees and pay rates, as well as the payments on eligible mortgage, lease, and utility obligations.
You must certify that the documents are true and that you used the forgiveness amount to keep employees and make eligible mortgage interest, rent, and utility payments. The lender must make a decision on the forgiveness within 60 days.
What is my interest rate?
1.00% fixed rate.
When do I need to start paying interest on my loan?
All payments are deferred for 6 months; however, interest will continue to accrue over this period.
When is my loan due?
In 2 years.
Can I pay my loan earlier than 2 years?
Yes. There are no prepayment penalties or fees.
Do I need to pledge any collateral for these loans?
No. No collateral is required.
Do I need to personally guarantee this loan?
No. There is no personal guarantee requirement. However, if the proceeds are used for fraudulent purposes, the U.S. government will pursue criminal charges against you.
What do I need to certify?
As part of your application, you need to certify in good faith that:
- Current economic uncertainty makes the loan necessary to support your ongoing operations.
- The funds will be used to retain workers and maintain payroll or to make mortgage, lease, and utility payments.
- You have not and will not receive another loan under this program.
- You will provide to the lender documentation that verifies the number of full-time equivalent employees on payroll and the dollar amounts of payroll costs, covered mortgage interest payments, covered rent payments, and covered utilities for the eight weeks after getting this loan.
- Loan forgiveness will be provided for the sum of documented payroll costs, covered mortgage interest payments, covered rent payments, and covered utilities. Due to likely high subscription, it is anticipated that not more than 25% of the forgiven amount may be for non-payroll costs.
- All the information you provided in your application and in all supporting documents and forms is true and accurate. Knowingly making a false statement to get a loan under this program is punishable by law.
- You acknowledge that the lender will calculate the eligible loan amount using the tax documents you submitted. You affirm that the tax documents are identical to those you submitted to the IRS. And you also understand, acknowledge, and agree that the lender can share the tax information with the SBA’s authorized representatives, including authorized representatives of the SBA Office of Inspector General, for the purpose of compliance with SBA Loan Program Requirements and all SBA reviews.
The two limitations are that the total amount cannot be larger than $10 million and the maximum income limit allowed to qualify is $100,000 per employee.
Paycheck Protection Program Confusion
Now that you’ve read the same thing as I have, I think you will agree that the Paycheck Protection Program is pretty amazing. But of course, there is some confusion!
For example, there is confusion regarding the $100,000 income limit per employee used in the PPP calculation.
If an employee makes over $100,000, is 100% of the employee’s salary ineligible for calculation? I think the answer is no. The employee’s salary will be pro-rated up to $100,000 for inclusion.
If an employee makes $240,000 starting on Oct 1, 2019, how is that employee’s salary included in the calculation? Given the employee made $60,000 gross in 2019, I believe 100% of the employee’s salary is included in the calculation since it is below $100,000.
There is also some confusion on whether 8 weeks worth of payroll and other expenses gets forgiven or 2.5X of one month’s payroll. Given a month has 4 weeks and change, 2.5X one month = 10 weeks, not 8 weeks. I think the benefit answer is 2.5X monthly payroll if 100% of the PPP money goes towards paying salaries. If 75% of the benefits are used to pay for salaries, the answer is 8 weeks of salary coverage because the remaining 25% goes to paying rent, mortgage, utilities and other costs to keep the lights on.
Finally, there is confusion about the maximum amount of PPP per employee as well as the guidance that at most 25% of PPP goes towards non-payroll expense. Based on my calculations, I think the maximum PPP benefit is about $11,110 per employee X 2.5 = $27,777 to account for a 25% lift in other expenses besides salary. Some people erroneously believe that the total is only $8,333 X 2.5 = $20,833 per employee based off a total $100,000 annual compensation. This is wrong.
From the SBA: “When calculating payroll costs, the exclusion of an employee salary that is greater than $100,000 annually applies only to cash compensation and not to non-cash benefits such as contributions to retirement or defined-benefit plans, payments for group healthcare coverage, including insurance premiums, or state and local taxes.”
Whatever the true number is, just know that it is easier to get approved for less with a known limit that is lower that what you submitted, than it is to get approved for more. If your payroll provider spits out more than $8,333 X 2.5, I would submit that amount in the PPP application.
Here’s how to calculate how much you can borrow from the Paycheck Protection Program. However, you should have a payroll provider like Gusto calculate your numbers for you. Then you can easily submit the documentation to your bank.
- Get the payroll amount for the last 12 months, including salaries and benefits
- Deduct the payroll taxes
- Divide the number by 12
- Multiply the number by 2.5
The final figure is the amount you can submit for the Paycheck Protection Program. Don’t get hung up with trying to get the perfect maximum amount. Double check the numbers that your payroll provider has given you and submit.
Paycheck Protection Program Example
One of the businesses I worry about most is our preschool because teachers rock. Many of our teachers live very humbly due to the high cost of living in San Francisco. If our preschool shuts down for an extended period of time, I worry our teachers will not get paid.
Parents were asked to pay full tuition for the months of March and April, despite the school being closed. I’m fine with this. However, we have been told that if the school is still closed in May, we will not have to pay May tuition. Instead, we could offer donations instead.
Before the Paycheck Protection Program was unveiled, I was worried about our preschool. Now, I am not.
Thanks to the PPP, our preschool is eligible to have 2.5X of its monthly payroll and other expenses covered. If that’s the case, then our preschool should be able to afford for the school to be closed and receive zero tuition for all of May and June before again feeling financial strain starting in mid-July.
Based on my survey in The Economy Or Maybe Your Life, the majority of the 2,000 voters were willing to shelter in place for two months to combat the virus. Based on the latest coronavirus data, it sure looks like the curve is flattening in most cities. Therefore, the PPP should keep our preschool afloat in time for it to open again no later than mid-July.
Below is a Paychecks Protection Program loan example I created for my preschool. I estimate there are 10 employees who average $75,000 a year in salary. They all get subsidized health insurance and some 401(k) matching.
The owners of the preschool can apply for the PPP and get $172,917 from the federal government. If they leave their payroll exactly as it is for at least 8 weeks after the loan is granted, the preschool can submit proof of documentation to its lender to have the entire $172,917 forgiven. Wonderful!
The PPP Is A Big Win For The Economy And Investors
If the PPP actually successfully lends out and forgives $659 billion to small businesses and self-employed individuals, this is the biggest win for the economy and for investors.
Before doing my analysis that the S&P 500 would bottom somewhere between 2,200 – 2,400, the PPP program had not been introduced. I had assumed there would be some type of rescue package but not one this good. With this new information, I have even higher conviction in my call. If the S&P 500 gets below 2,400 again, given there were plenty of rallies and then sell-offs during the previous financial crisis, I will be buying again. I’m not chasing the ramp.
Here are some more thoughts about the PPP benefitting businesses :
- Low operating profit margin businesses, mostly due to high payroll and good benefits, that are able to stay in business are helped the most. This is because the PPP covers the majority of operating expenses. However, businesses with low operating margins are also most at risk of shutting down. Business examples: restaurants, nonprofits and private schools.
- High operating profit margin businesses that pay their employees up to $100,000 with great benefits will also greatly benefit. Such businesses can stay operational for a very long time and the PPP is like an unexpected gift. However, due to a high operating profit margin, these businesses are likely taking a much larger revenue hit. Business example include: discretionary software.
- The business owner that perhaps benefits the least from the PPP is an S-Corp that underpays himself to save on payroll taxes. For 2020, the maximum taxable income for payroll taxes is $137,700. It was $132,900 for 2019. A common strategy for an S-Corp owner is to pay himself the lowest amount of salary possible to avoid paying as much Social Security + Medicare tax equal to 15.4%. The rest of the income is paid in FICA tax-free distributions.
- There’s a chance a business could receive 2.5 months of payroll plus other expenses while starting up their business or recovering most of their revenue before 2.5 months. In this scenario, these businesses that see a quicker-than-expected revenue recovery win the most.
- If you were recently laid off by a small business, I encourage you to ask your boss to apply for the PPP and have him or her hire you back for 8+ weeks at your full previous salary by the deadline. There is a lot of prep work you can do before the economy opens. There is not a lot of downside for the business owner, mostly upside for doing a good thing.
- Better to submit an application for a little too much based on the guidelines, than too little. If you end up borrowing too much, you’ll have more cash to keep your business going. You‘ll also have two years to pay the loan back at only a 1% interest rate. If you borrow too little, life could be more difficult.
There’s no reason why the PPP won’t work, especially since 2020 is an election year. Too much is at stake.
Good luck all small business owners! As of April 17, 2020, many readers who are small business owners have said they have finally received their PPP loans. Below is a sample a reader sent me about his approval.
In 2021, there is a second Paycheck Protections Program (PPP) for small businesses that have seen more than a 25% YoY drop in profits. With Joe Biden as President, a new $1.9 trillion rescue package has been announced. He said there will be another stimulus package in the second half of 2021 as well!
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Alan Albin says
Sam, could you PLEASE address the following dilemma re: PPP loans which will probably affect MANY of your readers!!!!
I wish you would address the following dilemma re: loan forgiveness for a sole proprietor under the PPP, namely, do the idiots at the SBA NOT realize that “8 weeks” is NOT the same thing as “two months”??? Currently I have a loan in process in the queue for the second tranche on Monday (hopefully). I am a sole proprietor, no employees other than myself, with over $100k Sched C income last year, therefore, I am elibible for a PPP loan of up to 2.5 montly net self employment income (up to $100,000 annual, prorated). I am sure there are many other applicants in my exact same situation (i.e. solos w/>$100k annual income). Under the Second Interim Guidance, the max. amount of owner income (“payroll”) that is forgivable is 8/52 x 100,000 = $15,384.61. However, in order to be forgivable, loan proceeds must be used for “payroll” or owner earning replacement in at least 75% of the total loan obtained. The total loan obtained is not calculated based on “weeks,” but rather, “months,” i.e. 2.5 times MONTHLY income (up to 100k max, prorated). That equals 2.5 x $8,333 = $20,833. Assuming I get the max. 2.5 x monthly “payroll” loan of $20,833, the MOST that will be considered “forgivable” payroll is $15,384.61, BUT $15,384.61/20,833 = 73.847%!!!! If the current guidance from the SBA is taken literally, then it will be IMPOSSIBLE for ANY sole proprietor (with no employees) who has maxed out the 100,000 net earnings capped–and, based on that, received 2.5x MONTHLY income loan amount of $20,833–to qualify for loan forgiveness!!! It’s a mathematical impossibility!!! Because the @#$%@! SBA bureaucrats don’t seem to be aware that a MONTH Is NOT THE SAME AS FOUR WEEKS!!!!! (And apparently can’t add, multiply, or do percentages, either!!!!) Please tell me I’m wrong, or what can be done about this???? This issue is going to hit many thousands if not MILLIONS of solos who max out the $100,000 “cap” and as a result receive a maxed PPP loan of $20,8333!!! You need to get on this!!!! Thanks luv your blog.
Sam, Can you please address this …above. I thought I was going crazy until I read your info and saw this COMMENT from a reader. PLEASE HELP US. THE MATH DOESN’T WORK. Months for initial calculation for PPP, Then weeks for forgiveness cap. HELP!!! Is this a department of the treasury accounting error?
Financial Samurai says
We’ll just have to wait and see how much loan will be forgiven. Having something forgiven is better than nothing. And for the loan money you are afraid won’t be forgiven, don’t spend it or spend it, but keep extra money as reserves. You have two years to pay it off at only a 1% interest rate.
For the $15,384, that’s wages only and 75% of total. So if you spend the rest on other eligible expenses, you should get $20,512 forgiven.
The 8 weeks is for keeping your payroll the same for 8 weeks. 2.5 months is for calculating how much you can get in PPP loan.
The 8 weeks could be 1 week or 20 weeks or a closer 10 weeks. It’s a subjective duration the government chose, but probably based on how long lockdowns would last at the time of issue.
Thank you. But the $15,384 cap is only 73.8% of the $20,833 received, therefore disqualifying any forgiveness because 75% was not used for payroll. That is the dilemma with using months to calculate the loan amount and weeks to cap the forgiveness. Please advise.
Financial Samurai says
But $15,384 is 75% of $20,514.
I guess my question to you is, do you really think the government’s intention is to give these loans and not help out businesses by not forgiving them for following the rules? If so, I would return the loan immediately.
You guys might be wagging the dog by grabbing its tail.
What exactly are your numbers and how much are you afraid won’t be forgiven? What is your business?
If you keep payroll as is for 8 weeks after u get the PPP loan, which is based off your payroll as is, you should get 100% forgiven.
Thank you Sam. Single owner business. Not worried about getting it all forgiven, just the 8 weeks. Since the last two lines of the forgiveness application spells out whether you used 75% or more, the payroll requirement, it stands out if you didn’t.
Received $10,000 PPP based on $48,000 from net profit line 31 of 2019 Schedule C. [(48000/12) x 2.5 =10,000]
On the forgiveness application: according to Schedule A instructions. Line 9 Compensation to owners. The amounts paid to owner are not to exceed the eight week equivalent of 2019 line 31 schedule C which is $48,000/52 weeks x 8 = $7384.62
Then, final lines on the forgiveness application check for the Payroll 75% requirement
$7384.62/$10,000 = 73.85%
They will see this fact and disqualify the loan. Months were used for initial calculation for PPP, then weeks are used for forgiveness cap.
Please educate me on what I am missing? This has been very stressful. I really appreciate the help.
robin leach says
Should a small business that has not laid off any workers and is conducting business as usual be able to receive the PPP loan?
Financial Samurai says
Yes, I believe so. Who knows how business will be in the future.
Both the charity foundation I chair and our church have applied for these loans (the church for the preschool they operate). I wish our community college could get similar help. We are getting funding cuts from the state instead.
My husbands company got this loan and is now telling him his salary is capped at 100k for 8 weeks. I think that it is up to the company to pay what they want but only include in the repayment calculation 100k cap. Is that correct? We would be taking a 65% cut in pay for 8 weeks. This cant be the intention of the government? Can you help clarify? Thanks
Financial Samurai says
Yes, the company can pay whatever their employees want. But they won’t get the loan forgiven over $100K + benefits etc per employee.
If you think about things from the company’s POV, it’s logical. Without the PPP, the company would probably just lay him off for the 8 weeks instead.
Did a nice job of summarizing the PPP. A couple things to note. If you are an LLC, you will need to know whether your are taxed as a sole proprietor, S-Corp, partnership, etc. Any W2 wages, self-employment income, or partner income allocation is limited to $100,000 per person. The most important point to note is that you do NOT include any payments below made to independent contractors. They would be subject to their own loan applications. This calculator can help you out if you have a tough time with the math.
I commented on your other article, but it looks like it didn’t go through or didn’t get approved, so I am writing again because you referenced your market prediction. I believe the valuation in your stock market bottom prediction article is inaccurate. Your methodology was to value the S&P 500 based on a 1-year forecast compared to baseline because, as you said, the price of a stock is simply a multiple of earnings. By using a 1-year forecast, you are essentially creating a forecast into perpetuity that is made up of that 1-year forecast repeated over and over again. For example, if you forecast a decline in Q2 & Q3 and then a recovery back to Q1 in Q4 in your 1-year forecast, by assuming the price will fall in accordance with that 1-year forecast, you are essentially forecasting that the company will experience that same dip and recovery in every single year into perpetuity.
In other words, the methodology you used puts the “price prediction” or right value of the S&P 500 waaaayyyy lower than if you do a proper valuation with each year discounted back to present value and with the market recovering following year 1.
Feel free to email me if you want to chat more on this.
Elizabeth McCoy says
I’m wondering if there is any information on how much of the loan would not be forgiven if I can’t get all my lay offs to come back. What if they found work elsewhere?
Financial Samurai says
It’s basically the prorated amount. You can apply for how many employees you think you can hire back. And those who are you do not successfully hire back, you would just have to pay back their portion of the loan. The interest rate is only 1% over two years so it’s basically free money. Just don’t spend it before you need to.
Sam, Thanks for the article. I have a few rental properties. I am a sole proprietorship with no employees other than myself. I don’t pay myself a salary and my pay form the business is just the net profit. Do you think I would qualify for a loan under PPP?
Financial Samurai says
I don’t think so, but you can always try on April 10. Fill out the application. It will tell you if it makes sense given you have to submit a number based on a calculation. GL and let me know what happens.
You have to show evidence of 2019 average payroll to form the basis. If you didn’t pay payroll, you are not eligible- nor should you be under the “Payroll Protection Program”. Yuk.
Financial Samurai says
True. If you don’t have payroll expense, why would a business get to I have payroll relief?
The problem with the small business program is it will only be used by businesses that already have the ability to hold onto 100% of their employees for a period of time. Everyone else it’s F you. People are already being layed off in mass. See snippet of text below that I’ve received from my local workout facility.
“ Our employees are our family, and we have always been committed to take care of them. That’s why it breaks our hearts to have to share with you that we temporarily laid off more than 90% of our workforce this week. We had no choice but to make this incredibly difficult and gut-wrenching decision to ensure the long-term viability of our business, so that they have a job to come back to and you have a studio to go to when we are able to reopen.”
Financial Samurai says
See the part about employers being allowed to rehire their employees back by June 30 to have the loans forgiven if they are kept on the payroll for 8 weeks after.
I do appreciate you being negative on the past three posts to keep me looking both ways. Thanks
I own a company that operates in 7 countries. We employ about 60-70 people on a mixture of freelance, contractor and w2 equivalent. This is the best and most sensible support program there is out of those countries and the only one I am
Bothering applying for. It still has a million flaws you can pick at if you want as pretty much all government programs will do and lots of room for improvement – but at least the underlying logic wasn’t bad and I think it might be the first time ever any government has actually done something for me as an adult beyond complete basics, if the forgiveness works.
The other programs elsewhere incentivize you to lay off/furlough your employees and stop them doing even partial work for you which is truly moronic. It may temporarily stop a bleed but will cause other countries a harder time in recovering and has far longer run times.
All in all for me, it’s the single best idea I’ve ever seen from politicians when it comes to small business, but that’s not necessarily saying much but it’s more issues with details and execution than issues of underlying idea.
Financial Samurai says
Here’s some great NEGATIVE feedback about the PPP from a small business owner who had to shutdown his business due to the government’s demands. But his investments are doing well given his investments are conservatively positioned.
1. PPP: The program is much worse of a deal than it looks. We are in the fitness / health and wellness space with multiple locations, in NYC. I have been discussing this with fellow business owners for weeks. It sucks.
– We, like millions of other businesses in retail, hospitality, service, travel etc. industries had to shut down by government order. We had to lay off all our employees because there is zero revenue. There is no end in sight. If you look at where western European countries are on the infection curve, we should be closed and quarantined for at least 2 -3 more months to fight corona. Social pressures will likely cause the government to reopen sooner than that. Which will only make the situation worse as people will still be freaking out about going out in public, and infections will rise again (look at China, HK, Singapore etc.).
– PPP loans are forgivable to the extent you use the proceeds for payroll and maintain your workforce (roughly speaking). But most small businesses have already had to lay off all their work force! There is nothing to be spent on payroll!.
– Loans are 2.5x average monthly employee payroll. But many businesses in our industry and other rely on independent contractors for the bulk of the labor. Doesn’t count, no credit for that! I am looking out for my employees and contractors. In most of the industries impacted by the shutdown, labor is making minimum wage or close to it. I laid off all of my labor because with the additional $600/week in federal unemployment, they are better off filing for benefits than working! Huge disincentive created to NOT work, for businesses to lay off their work force.
– I don’t know even if we reopen, how I am going to get anybody back since they are making 2-3x now NOT working!
– So basically we get to apply for a loan to pay payroll costs which we don’t have thus can’t be forgiven, well at least I get to spend the money on rent and utilities and then pay it back from future (much lower) revenue, unless I just choose to just fold now.
– A lot of small businesses will not survive, PPP or no PPP. We have tons of liquidity, no debt, great market position and we are still freaking out.
– And not even talking about large businesses in the space that are largely overlevered from massive buy backs / cheap capital, plus the energy sector, spillover to banks, a whole other discussion…
2. Covid-19. I don’t know how bad it is in SF, but NYC is a war zone. 700+ people dying a day. Supermarkets are empty I have had distant family members and friends of friends die. There is no place to put them. No place to bury them. Bodies are piled up in refrigerated trucks in front of hospitals. There are no funerals. We are NOT past the peak.
– I don’t know why so many places in the country are not taking this seriously. There are a lot of large cities getting hit as well, just behind NYC. Maybe not to NYC levels, but it is coming
– When you see a drop in new cases reported, it is not because there are no new infections. There are probably millions of people that are already positive and asymptomatic.
– I am talking to various doctor friends of mine on the front lines. Friends working ERs doing intubations. Friends working with nursing homes There are simply no tests! There are no cases because we are not testing! From the fcktards in Washington that had wasted months and haven;t gotten prepared, to late shutdowns at state levels… From talking to people in healthcare, this is a lot worse than it looks. Doctors / nurses are freaking out and dying due to lack of PPE / being totally overwhelmed.
– Singapore / South Korea . HK etc. they got their shit together and still suffering greatly, we are like Italy / Spain, if not worse. Look at where they are now, we are a few weeks behind.
3. Market / Fed response. Sorry again this just hitting the main points, I can’t spend pages here elaborating. I went to 20% precious metals / gold miners and 80% cash end of January. No major damage done. We are fine.
– But I am not getting long equities at these levels. Are you? Are you buying ?? Market valuations were at nose-bleed levels off pre-recession earnings in February. We are now barely ~20% off the peaks after this massive ~20%+ rally.
– Earnings are not knowable for 2020. But whatever they are they will be awful or worse.
– We are likely to have another corona wave in the fall. What happens to 2021 earnings?
– The new normal will be different from the old normal. A lot of companies won’t survive. I truly believe despite the Fed’s best efforts to the contrary, we haven’t beaten the natural business cycle.
– Nobody can tell me an 11 year old bull market culminating in the everything mother of all bubbles got resolved with one ~35% drop in the matter of a few weeks and we are back to business.
– I was really hoping this was the pin that triggered the popping of the bubble and we would see some reckoning finally over the coming months and years.
– Now am I wrong? Will the the world’s central banks just keep printing massive amounts of money and backstop everything, QE infinity and beyond? Because they have no other choice? So we are back to square one and money will just going to keep flowing into equities because there is no better alternative?
– Borrow at a few bps, lever up more, and monetize trillions more?
4. Sorry won’t ramble here anymore.
– My base case is we retest 2000/2007 highs of S&P ~1700. I might start buying earlier than that if I see any deals, but definitely not at 2700. The expected 10 year return for equities from today’s valuation levels is negative.
– Also don’t feel like buying negative yielding sovereigns (after inflation) to pay the government for the privilege of lending them my hard earn money.
– Staying in cash / gold, might put on some more selective shorts and try to not get my face ripped off in these algo / vol-targeting / CTA driven rallies, and buy more gold on dips
– If you are right and the bottom was / is S&P 2200 or 2400, then I will never get a chance to buy equities because I see no prospective returns from these levels
Holy shit! Glass half full empty. The arguments may be valid in your area but this is the United States of America. Not just NYC.
1- The majority of small businesses have W-2 employees. Hire your employees back and you get 10 weeks of payroll. Free, very few strings attached.
2-NYC is the Covid-19 hotspot. Hundreds of millions of Americans are fortunate to have a different reality than you are. Washington state, were I live, has been reasonably successful slowing the spread even though we were the original hot spot. Social distance and the infection rate goes down. New York will get there. There’s to many brilliant people working on this not to have a long term solution soon.
3- 19x earnings with a 1.5 percent 10 year is expensive? Seems pretty reasonable to me. You can’t count this years earnings. This is a pandemic. We’ve never intentionally shut down our economy in history. You gotta give this year a pass. It’s about survival, not earnings.
4- Base case, Who the F—- knows. Dollar cost average. You will buy at the highs and the lows and everything in between. Do that and you’ll beat 90 percent of the professionals.
I wish this person all the best. It’s their reality. It’s just not mine.
Paper Tiger says
I spoke to a friend who is a Stanford Cardiologist last night. He says COVID is worse than they are letting on. Based on all the cases they are seeing in Santa Clara County, he feels we really need to be shut down for another 5-6 months. He said what they aren’t telling you is they are sending many patients home and they are seeing a wave of them die there. They leave the hospital feeling like they have turned the corner and then die of heart failure at home because of the damage the virus did while they were hospitalized.
His feeling is all of this “unexpected” FED stimulus we are seeing is the FED trying to get ahead of the bad news that is coming, meaning the economy is going to have to stay in deep freeze longer than expected. He feels if we don’t address the medical side correctly and let the politicians rush us back too fast, things will negatively escalate very quickly and we will have an even bigger problem on our hands.
He has been on the front lines of this war every day working almost non-stop and is not one to speaks in hyperboles so I take his comments very seriously.
Financial Samurai says
Good to know. We have rallied a lot and it’s not a bad idea to trim some exposure given we were staring into the abyss just a few short weeks ago.
I do wonder though, If the politicians in charge were average Americans with average net worth and weren’t going to get paid like millions of Americans do the unemployment, would they still want to shut down the economy for so long?
We are an investment advisor firm that will likely see our overall net income for the year cut in half as our fees are based on assets under management. Obviously, our AUM have taken a hit because of COVID-19, but we’ve continued operations with no layoffs, and still expect to generate a profit for the year. Of course, that is subject to change, depending on how quickly the market bounced back. Is anyone else having issue with certifying “Current economic uncertainty makes the loan necessary to support your ongoing operations” as part of the loan application?
Financial Samurai says
I would apply. It is clear your revenue is down due to Covid-19. And if it somehow isn’t, that’s a win and you can pay back the PPP loan quickly at hardly any interest cost.
With the S&P 500 down 20%, are you saying your fees will get cut in half b/c of clients pulling money out?
Not pulling money out, but total revenue will be down b/c our AUM will be substantially less than what was anticipated because of the market decline. Our revenue is based on a percentage of AUM. Most of our expenses are fixed, meaning the missing revenue will mostly directly affect our bottom line.
Still, depending on how the next several weeks go, we don’t anticipate “needing” a loan to cover payroll or operating expenses to keep the doors open. We thoroughly expect to be substantially less profitable, but not to the point where a loan is “necessary” to cover operations. From what I understand, loan proceeds used to cover payroll costs, mortgage interest, rent, and utilities payments over the 8 weeks after getting the loan would be forgiven, which would go a long ways towards getting us closer to what we would have anticipated profits being for the year. However, defining the loan as “necessary” to “support ongoing operations” is a bit vague. Is there anything needed beyond using the loan proceeds for payroll, etc. to have the loan forgiven, or am I understanding that to be the only parameter necessary to have the debt forgiven? If so, it almost feels like “free money.” But I’m still hung up on how does one determine “necessary?”
Financial Samurai says
Ok, so profits may be down 50%, not revenue. Thanks for clarifying.
I’m still trying to figure out…will it be counted as taxable income at the end of the year??
Based on everything I’ve read, the loan forgiveness amount is NOT taxable.
“If you were recently laid off by a small business, I would encourage you to ask your boss to apply for the PPP and have him or her hire you back for 8+ weeks at your full previous salary by the deadline. There is no downside for the business owner, only upside for doing a good thing.”
I think this is a trap. The PPP is a loan. Let’s say a restaurant hires back employees and pays them for 8 weeks. Free money, right? Wrong! If the restaurant has to let the employees go after eight weeks because business doesn’t pick back up they don’t get the loan forgiven. So now this struggling business is screwed with a short-term loan. Plus, the employee could have just got this juiced up unemployment and been fine financially (particularly in the restaurant example).
This loan is a trap for businesses that really need it if the recession is worse than expected. It is a windfall for successful businesses that didn’t need it because they were not going to lay anyone off anyway. Very poorly designed program that will have a disastrous effect if the economy doesn’t bounce back very quickly. Of course, they may fix this glitch.
Am I missing something?
Financial Samurai says
Sure. You don’t have to keep the same payroll indefinitely. That is unreasonable and not what’s asked.
You get X through PPP. You pay your employees X for 2.5 months. X amount is forgiven. If things are still shutdown in 2.5 months, then you reduce expenses to survive. And if things are still shutdown in 2.5 months, then there is probably going to be more rescue packages.
I don’t think that is how it works. I think in six months they ask “is everyone still employed?” If not, no grant. Your workers keep the money you paid them–you keep the debt. If you are sure your workers will be there through 2020, it is a no brainer of course. If you have a runway of 30 days of cash, this is a very big gamble that could force you into bankruptcy.
I could be wrong, but where are you getting that X is forgiven no strings attached? I don’t think you can “reduce expenses to survive” and still get the grant portion. You can reduce expenses, but not payroll. There is a carrot and a stick here I believe. If I’m correct, the advice you are giving is very dangerous. I hope I am wrong. If I am, the loan is much more helpful for those in need.
I would be very interested in whether anyone knows definitively how long you have to keep employees employed (after the 8 weeks) to get the full grant.
Financial Samurai says
Definitely use your business as an example. What are you doing wrt to PPP and why? What is the PPP amount you are asking for per employee etc?
I’m applying for the loan because I’m entitled to do so under the law, but I feel bad honestly taking it. My business will dip this year, but I was already very comfortable financially. So basically I’m going to get a free 8 weeks of payroll (including me) just because my business profits are down. I don’t think people like us should be able to take the money at all. There should be a question on the application that says does any employee benefiting from this loan have a liquid net worth (excluding a primary house) of over $1,000,000. Can’t we at least exclude the very rich? The whole thing is stupid. Tons of friends of mine are getting windfalls that don’t need or deserve the money at all. I wish they had found a better way to help real businesses in need. I don’t have a better idea though (other than making the application much more difficult for the rich). How about a clause that says you can’t pay any employee over $250k in 2020 (otherwise you don’t get it)?
Financial Samurai says
Cool. If you feel bad, don’t apply.
What is the PPP amount per employee you are applying for?
There was no “reply” button on your question below.
You say “if you feel bad, don’t apply.” Let’s not be crazy Sam. :). I’ll take the money for sure, but I’ll donate an equivalent amount to good causes fighting the virus. I was going to do at least that either way.
I’m applying for $8333.33 per employee since I’m reasonably sure that is the max. Hope I’m wrong (and that I can amend). The number would be a lot higher if I could add 401k contributions, healthcare, taxes, ….
Financial Samurai says
Ok good luck! Let’s see what happens. You would think if $8,333 was the max per employee X 2.5, the government would say so. I’m hoping it is $8,333 plus a lift to account for all other employee costs where $8,333 equals 75% for the max.
Either way, we’re going to find out and I’ll amend the article accordingly. Based on payroll calculations I’ve seen for several businesses, these businesses are submitting more than $8,333 X 2.5 per employee. I’m hoping and assuming that the government would just approve the loan based on whatever limit they think, and not approve the overage.
It is easier to approve less than to approve more.
From the SBA:
When calculating payroll costs, the exclusion of an employee salary that is greater than $100,000 annually applies only to cash compensation and not to non-cash benefits such as contributions to retirement or defined-benefit plans, payments for group healthcare coverage, including insurance premiums, or state and local taxes.
Employee vacation, parental, family, medical and sick leave are all included in payroll costs. But qualified sick and family leave wages for which a credit is allowed under the CARES Act are not included.
Borrowers that utilize third-party payroll providers or Professional Employer Organizations (PEOs) can rely on payroll documentation provided by these providers if the documents indicate the amount of wages and payroll taxes reported to the IRS.
Financial Samurai says
Yes. The first paragraph from the SBA explains why $8,333/employee X 2.5 is not the limit. You’ve got to add all the non-cash benefits, which lifts the total amount by 20-25%.
This just came out today, right? So frustrating for folks. And of course at Chase you cannot amend, cancel an app, call a banker, e-mail a banker, etc.
Financial Samurai says
What just came out?
If you are talking about the wording from the SBA, it was out since the beginning. I read it in the application.
Start a new thread if you want.
Financial Samurai says
FYI, more data that your $8,333 limit X2.5 per employee is wrong. I have more feedback of approvals for more than that limit b/c of the overage for work benefits etc.
I would apply again if I were you. Or maybe not, since you don’t need it.
One more thing to add, the money you receive is exempt from federal and state taxes even if the loan is forgiven.
Thanks for posting this Sam. The PPP program may be helpful for some businesses including preschools but what if you run a home day-care and pay your employees under the table?
We are continuing to pay the home day care provider for our 2 year old son because we are lucky enough to have stable jobs at the moment. That might change soon because we are closing on a home next week we bought without a contingency and can’t afford to carry 2 mortgages and float day care.
Also, Wells Fargo is one of the most corrupt banks in existence.
Financial Samurai says
Hopefully with all the taxes the home daycare provider has illegally avoided all these years it will help them stay afloat until the lockdown is over.
I think it’s fair that the government and banks try to help tax paying businesses first don’t you think?
I agree it’s fair that the government and banks try to help tax paying businesses first. My only point is that not every small business fits cleanly into PPP and there is a ripple effect.
Sam, thanks for another great and timely article.
I’m trying to figure out if employer retirement benefits should be added to the $100,000 per employee payroll cap. I have a defined benefit plan so if I add those contributions, it makes a big difference!
According to FAQ # 7 from Treasury:
“The exclusion of compensation in excess of $100,000 annually applies only to cash compensation, not to non-cash benefits, including:
employer contributions to defined-benefit or defined-contribution retirement plans;”
This is all very confusing!
Financial Samurai says
It is confusing. What is the difference if you add? I don’t think you can get more than $11,000 per employee X 2.5. With 25% of the amount attributable to non-payroll.
I’d go with applying for more, up to the limit rather than less. If you end up borrowing too much, the interest-rate is only 1% for the two years. If you end up borrowing too little, then your business might shut down or you might have to reapply.
Thanks for breaking down this information to making it more consumable for the average person.
I do have a question about whether owners of rental property can apply for a loan due to rent being unpaid due to the coronavirus situation. I have read mixed things about this and am hoping that one of the rental property investors here can shed some clarity on this.
Financial Samurai says
I’m not sure. Unless you have a rental property business with W-2 employees, How would you go about calculating the payroll figure? It’s not lost rental income because your tenants are not employees. Therefore, I think the answer is no if you are a mom and pop landlord like I am.
We would have to ask the bank for mortgage payment delays, which I know they are offering for three months.
If anything, you could apply after April 10 when self-employed and freelance workers are eligible. There’s no downside going through the process. And if you have to pay back the loan, the interest-rate is only 1%.
Cash Flow Playground says
I am just starting to looking into this myself. The Economic Injury Disaster Loan (EIDL) may be the way to go for Landlords trying to recover lost rents. Here is some information with a link to the application: https://www.sba.gov/page/disaster-loan-applications
Long-time reader, never posted. I own my own small dental practice in the SF Bay Area. Our industry is hurting. Not only are we the occupation with highest risk of transmission of COVID-19 to ourselves/others, but we still have ongoing high overhead costs to pay for with the possibility of being closed for several more months. PPP sounds like a great program and it’s a no-brainer, but it’s all a hot mess right now. My business bank, Westamerica, has suspended their application process due to high volume. Many of my dental colleagues are also unable to successfully apply with several different banks. Many banks that are still accepting are setting restrictions such as having business checking/savings accts with them, having an active business loan with them AND having their credit cards before they’ll even let you apply. Sad to see what historically has been one of the most fail-proof small businesses is now staring down the eyes of failure. I applied for EIDL but am unsure of what else I can do.
On another note, my husband is also Haas School of Business alumni (2008). Go Bears!
Financial Samurai says
Hang in there Renee! There is certainly going to be a bottleneck for the first two weeks. But I believe the bottle neck will loosen and Steve M the US treasury secretary just said they have enough money for a small business loan applications this morning.
I have faith you guys will qualify and get relief. And if you hire back your employees before the June deadline at the same rate, then the money will be forgiven.
I do believe that by June, most businesses will be able to open again and earn revenue. And I do Believe your business will have a huge backlog of clients wanting to do cleaning and other dental work.
Let’s keep the faith and Go Bears!
This program is awesome! For the northwest crowd HomeStreet Bank is up and running with this program.
To make your forgiveness part easier someone recommended that I open a separate checking account and have the money deposited there. Pay your payroll and related expenses out of that account and when forgiveness time comes it makes it easier to show where the money went. My bank and accountant were both on board with this idea.
Financial Samurai says
It’s a good idea to separate accounts to make things clear. And even if you don’t, it’s easy to separate the entries depending on how many employees you have.
Actually the biggest companies who employ most people in the USA . Small business employ much less . Small Business Association claim is a myth
I have been attempting to complete the PPP Loan through my bank, Wells Fargo, since Friday (April 3). On Saturday morning, I was able to complete a preliminary link giving my EIN, email and so other contact info. This link was accessed through my account log in page. I was told that Wells Fargo would be in touch, and I would be placed in que to complete an application. By Saturday evening, the initial link was closed and there was a message that their lending amount had been maxed out. As a 20 plus year customer, with multiple business and personal accounts, as well as multiple rental property mortgages, I was/am panicking. Today, I received an email from Wells Fargo indicating that while I am still in que, I am encouraged to potentially seek out other lenders. This infuriates me. Reaching out to other lenders has resulted in them responding that, “due to the volume they are only servicing current customers.” I am fortunate to have a personal contact at the Wells Fargo bank but even she is really helpless and continues to tell me that she just doesn’t have the answers. Meanwhile, my insurance agent friends inform me that they have all completed the PPP application with their smaller regional area bankers. I felt like going with Wells Fargo would be beneficial due to their size and my long term relationship with them. I am still in limbo. Regardless of how this eventually turns out, I will reeevaluate my relationship with Wells Fargo when this done. By the way, Wells Fargo indicates on their website that they are focusing their efforts on employers with 50 or fewer employees (which would be me) and non profits. I am hoping to hear something positive and will update my scenario if anyone is interested.
The reason Wells Fargo is having problems is because the government put extra rules and requirements on the company after they got caught screwing their customers. The government may temporarily suspend those rules soon so that people like you can get their PPP applications processed.
Thanks Bill. That’s what I’m hearing. I sure hope you are correct. It would be a lot easier to go from start to finish with the bank that I already have a business account established. Tracking expenses and other needed docs would be much easier to provide.
Try again today. The Fed just announced they have lifted Wells Fargo’s cal! GL!
Kc chuck says
Hi Sam I am a gig / contract 1099 employee and do plan to apply for the program. My bank initially told me I had to already have a commercial account with them in order to apply with them. They have a special office who is supposed to call me so I’ll keep you posted. Thanks for your research and post on this new program!
I disagree and am so angry!
I have been following all the bailout packages in detail since they were going through Congress / discussed with my tax guy. The PPP program is AWFUL, especially for millions of businesses like ours that have been forced to close and lay off all employees, with no end in sight. Yes I am applying for it for cheap funding, but that’s about all it does.
So is the remainder of this CARES act that just inflates the bubble to even greater extremes and encourages people to NOT work – that normal people like you and me and our children will be paying for for generations. I was going to say that if you think the S&P bottoms out at 2200-2400 you are on crack / I will gladly take the under in that bet. (I just lost some money on long puts in this dead cat bounce that I had thought was over a few days ago). But who knows with all this pointless liquidity flowing into equities…
Happy to discuss further if you are so inclined
Financial Samurai says
I have a hard time getting angry at people or institutions who give me free money, but I can understand your anger… at hopefully the government.
Although my dad says I have a gambling problem, I’m happy to bet with you the S&P 500 doesn’t close below 2,200 this year. I think the odds are 70% in my favor, so am happy to make an even odds bet if you like.
It always feels so painful in the moment. Hope we come back to this post and laugh in July/August.
Thanks for raising awareness on the PPP loans and helping to explain this rather confusing rescue program. It’s so wild to me that they left the payroll calculation up to interpretation, which has been driving those in the accounting and payroll world crazy recently but I’m glad there is a program to be confused about versus none at all!
I was surprised at the 100% forgiveness aspect when I first heard about it, but it should be that way. I would have called it the PPP Grant program instead of Loan but anyway… Small businesses are really hurting right now and really need these PPP “loans” to retain employees due to being shut down and having major slashes in revenue.
I hope every small business will take the time to apply through their bank! Dealing with banks and confusing calculations may deter some from trying, but it’s really worth it especially since time is of the essence right now to get into the queue and you can’t beat 100% forgiveness on a loan.
Financial Samurai says
Loan makes more sense bc if a business does not keep payroll or hire back folks by the due date, then it is a loan and not free money.
For those who’ve lost jobs, hopefully they will get stimulus checks to hold them over before getting rehired.
Long time fan of this great blog. This program is very good but unfortunately it doesn’t apply for everyone. We are small restaurant in Seattle area and our bank is Wells Fargo. We did make several attempts to apply starting Friday with no luck.
On Sunday official statement is that “Given the exceptionally high volume of requests we have already received, we will NOT be able to accept any additional requests for a loan through the Paycheck Protection Program”.
Financial Samurai says
That is shocking! That has to be a temporary mistake bc all small businesses who meet the conditions qualify. It’s just going to be a backlog for the first couple of weeks as they sort out the kinks. Try again!
Did they perhaps reject you based on your application instead of the demand surge?
Absolutely not. We could not even apply.
We also have tried other programs with exactly the same result.
We will continue trying. I will gladly share my experience, but for now we will be patient.
All the readers, Sam and your family be safe!
Wells Fargo is under an asset cap as a consequence of the fake account scandal of 2016. They were up against the cap with the first few days of applications. You need to try other banks, hopefully one of them can help you. Good luck.
Following. I’m also a Wells Fargo hold over. I have an insurance business. I hope you get your loan and wish you well with your restaurant. My wife and I love to travel and find new restaurants. We we checked out Seattle in 2018 and LOVED it. If Sam allows, post name of your restaurant and I promise my wife and I will eat there next time we visit Seattle.
Stefan – I am a small business owner in the Seattle area. My advice? Stay away from the big banks! Find a local SBA bank (hint: Banner Bank) and agree to setup a basic business checking account. Submit a PPP application with them. Your results will likely be better!
Find other banks. Keep trying. The smaller banks are more likely to not be overloaded.
It is a rescue package that is amazingly quick and unique to date in the US. The one gap that I see is businesses that were forced to lay off staff are ineligible to get the forgiveness (i.e. grant) portion of this package, unless they rehire the same level of staff by June 30th. Many business were not able to keep staff wages going in March when California shut down businesses and don’t expect sales to pick up in July as fast as they used to be, so don’t want to take everyone back on board. Unfortunately this doesn’t stop the layoffs entirely but will be a support for those businesses that can sustain themselves after the lockdown and just need a short term relief boost.
Financial Samurai says
Strategically, it makes sense hire some employees back given the business won’t have to pay and perhaps make them do other types of work like marketing, business development, delivery, or cook?
Hi San-could you do an article on whether the PPP would work for a small on-and-pop landlord, as well as for a sole practitioner professional?
Financial Samurai says
Self-employed can apply starting April 10.
Let’s all pitch in together and think of others. Thanks!
I spoke with a loan officer at my bank last Friday (April 3). They stated that a requirement was that the business must have W2 employees. When I asked about 1099, they stated that they had received updated guidance on this requirement just a few hours before we spoke.
There is a lot of misinformation going around. Not sure if this is true or not.
I hope it helps through…
I am positive you are eligible for 2.5x your annual compensation based on your self-employment earnings. PLUS, you can apply for an SBA emergency grant of $10,000 that does not need to be repaid. The grant application is here: https://covid19relief.sba.gov/#/ it is part of a Economic Injury Disaster Loan (EIDL) program. You DO NOT need to accept a loan, just apply and check the box to receive a $10,000 emergency grant. Funds are supposed to be dispersed within 72 hours, but my application is so far about 5 days… Sam please vet this information and update your readers. I am 99.9% it is correct, based on my research.
Jim Posey says
I applied for the EIDL on March 27th and the $10K grant on March 29th. Have not heard anything regarding these 2 programs.
Applied at 8:30AM on March 3rd for PPP, at 8:30 PM same day. My banker sent me a text that my PPP was 1 of 80 that got approved that day.
Nebraska based bank. 1st State Bank smaller (I think) community bank. But they are the perfect size for me.
We own and manage 203 rental units and have 5 maintenance guys on payroll.
Sam’s observation regarding S-Corp and not paying myself to keep tax consequences down is very poignant.
Financial Samurai says
Good luck! Please keep us updated on whether and when you get the PPP funds.
One day, I hope you can share I guess post on how you were able to accumulate 203 rental properties!
Christopher Longo says
Another benefit is the unemployment rate will drop, which will bring payroll tax revenue to federal and state governments.
Win-Win scenario for everybody!