Peter and I were golfing buddies for years until one day he started asking me about my compensation. I refused to tell him for weeks until he mentioned he was in a tough situation, negotiating a package with a potential new employer and sought my advice as someone several years his senior.
As I stood over my ball, ready to attempt a 30 foot birdie putt, Peter chimes up, “Sam, you’d really be doing me a favor by letting me know, so I can go back and counter them in case they are low balling me.” Peter then proceeded to tell me what he was making at which point I felt forced to reveal my income because he was so upfront. When I did, he quieted down, walked to the next hole and smacked his driver down the pipe.
“280 yards with only a sand wedge in!” I applauded after I missed my putt. “Hmprh“, was the only sound that came out of his mouth as walked further and further away.
As weeks turned into months, I realized he no longer pinged me to play golf. It also turns out that he never took the new job offer and remains at his company ’til this day. Peter turned cold and I later found out that the reason why he never took the new job was because he countered them so high based on what he heard from me that they pulled the offer. Peter blames me for not getting the job and not making the money he feels he deserves to make. I have no control over what the potential suitor was willing to pay so why is it my fault?
NEVER REVEAL YOUR INCOME
I’ve known Peter for years, and it saddens me that we no longer hang out. He asked me to be his mentor when he first graduated from college, and his competitive drive drove him overboard. He compares everything from cars to property with everybody. As an example, he purchased a two year old Aston Martin Vanquish around his 30th birthday. All he had to do was buy a two year old Honda Civic and it would blow away what I was driving and most of our circle since we take the bus!
It was an absolute mistake revealing my income to him. I like to wear worn t-shirts and jeans, because I don’t like to draw attention. In fact, perhaps this is why I so often wear baseball caps, so I can be left alone to do my own thing. Blending in is why I drive Moose, my 11 year old SUV that’s worth $4,000. He’s handsome and clean, but will never turn heads. It’s the best feeling when people look at me and think I’m just a kid with very little.
I’m not going to apologize for making more than Peter when I was his age. I was just trying to help him out in his negotiation process as he wouldn’t relent on asking. We could have come up with a strategy for negotiation, and use my figure as a realistic anchoring point for further talks with his potential new employer. Instead, he decided to huff and puff and curse the world for life’s inequities.
THE UPSIDE OF KEEPING YOUR INCOME HIDDEN
* You can always play down your wealth.
* You can play up your wealth if circumstances dictate.
* You don’t have to feel like you always have to pay because you make more.
* You can buy things and go on vacations in peace.
* You blend in with everybody else.
* If you make more than the average, nobody will envy you or try and take you down.
THE DOWNSIDE OF REVEALING YOUR INCOME
* You start associating your identity with your income.
* You might come across as arrogant and boastful.
* You lose ground in salary negotiations if you ever change jobs.
* People will start expecting things from you i.e. “Larry makes $10,000 a month, let him get the dinner tab!”
* You might get reported to the IRS agent who might think, “Oh really now?”
* You will be judged by everything you spend and don’t spend your money on i.e. “You only donate that little to charity?” “How can you afford a $25,000 car when you only make $60,000 a year?” “You’re 45 years old and still only make that little?” “You make that much and still drive a beater?” “You’re selling the dream, and your client’s dreams are failing.” etc.
IF YOU MUST REVEAL YOUR INCOME
If for whatever reason, you just have to reveal your income to others, use this guideline to decide whether you should or not:
Reveal income if your income is equal to the median income of your peer group (industry, level, experience) up to +15% over. If you are making any more, then it’s probably best not to reveal and speak in generality. Any income below 115% of the median income of your peer group is fine.
If your business model is making money by showing others how much money you can make by making money off others, really try and reach out to those who’ve bought your products and failed. Reimburse the occasional failure and set up some type of safety net fund or charity fund to help.
PRACTICE STEALTH WEALTH
The next time someone tries to dig compensation information out of you, stand strong and don’t reveal any details! Practice Stealth Wealth! If you must share info given the other party has bared their soul, talk in percentages and temper them while you are at it. The other strategy is to provide a wide range below and above his or her salary so as to appease some of his/her desire to know, without making them feel unsatisfactory.
Look around at the most financially successful people out there. You’ll never see or read about them disclosing how much money they are pulling in. They are secure with themselves and understand the upsides of keeping their finances private.
Recommendation
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Brand yourself online, connect with like-minded people, find new consulting gigs, and potentially make a good amount of income online one day by selling your product or recommending other great products. Not a day goes by where I’m not thankful for starting Financial Samurai in 2009. Here’s my step-by-step guide to for how to start your own website like mine in under 30 minutes.
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Updated for 2017 and beyond.
I think people don’t mind to reveal their income on an anonymous forum, hence the number of posts and comments on this.
I agree at work it is mostly downside and little upside. A senior colleague who is 15 years older than me and very accomplished technically is making less than me and did not negotiate a bonus. The head of the company told him that none of the senior staff get a bonus but he partially lied because he qualified it as a 13th month bonus.
Instead the company head and I both have a bonus that works out to be 50% of our annual compensation, with 12% of that being fixed and 38% being variable.
I regularly hear the colleague gripe about this since there was a promise made to him more than 1 year ago that he will get a variable bonus. I will not tell him the entire situation because I know it will upset him and perhaps he will be angry at me for keeping it quiet so long and then telling him.
In this case ignorance is truly bliss.
-Mike
Ignorance truly is bliss. I would rather know a range than a specific number, bc even one dollar more or less can cause tension!
Personally, I think revealing compensation is a really bad idea too. People really don’t need to know your financial life in that kind of detail. My sentiments are that if I don’t ask, then I don’t feel obligated to share. Salary and wealth tend to spark a lot of interest, especially when its the details of people we know. However, like you said, once others know, they make assumptions based on what they think you should do.
I totally agree with you. It is none of their business. It is sad that Peter would ditch a friendship due to jealousy. I guess if you want to find out who your true friends are reveal your income bracket. ha!
My dad always gave the same advice (and he was a lumberjack, which is pretty far removed from your line of work). His rationale was that little good can come of it. If it’s higher than the person you’re talking to they will likely feel worse about themselves and many will resent you. If it’s lower, most people won’t give you the same respect as before because so many of us in Western society equate income and material possessions with human worth. He owned his own business and made much more than most people thought. Much like yourself, he always wore “work clothes” (yes, much of the time the stereotypical red plad) and drove used vehicles.
I agree that there is nothing good that can come in revealing income. I want to go through life just blending in as well. Even online, I don’t think it is a good idea. Percentages and generalized statements about increases and decreases are fine, but exact numbers are taboo in my book.
I think there is a lot of good that comes from revealing your income, as long as you are talking to reasonable people.
If I make $50k, and other people in my line of work make $80k, then I know to either ask for a raise or apply to a different company. I’d never be mad at the people making more than me, but I might be upset with my employer or other companies and try to fix the situation. If people hadn’t told me their income, I never would have known that I was worth more than I was being paid.
I’m pretty open about my income to the right people (who aren’t the jealous type), and I’ve never had it backfire.
Give it several more years and keep telling everyone. Right now, you are at the beginning of your career, so it’s all upside. After 5-10 years, go ahead and continue asking and telling everyone how much you make above and BELOW you. Let me know how it goes.
Exactly how i think.
I’m very big on being transparent, but I draw the line at deeply personal stuff like money, I tend to clam up a bit. I’m like Sam, in that I prefer to fly under the radar. My style is low key: no jewelry, not fancy haircut like J$, plain ol’ Honda Accord, etc. I could care less about what offending anyone, or what they think of me. My thing is that I just want to be known for my personality and intangible qualities. Especially being single, and living in such a materially-charged areas as South Florida, it helps weed out not only the gold diggers, but the hangers-on who only want a free ride as well.
Are there a lot of gold diggers in South Florida? I’ll take your word for it!
How much does one need to make and have to be gold digger worthy in your opinion?
Hell yeah there are! I’m not sure if there really is a floor. There are people (both men and women) that will date someone for the monetary benefits no matter what their income level. But for the purposes of this discussion, I’d probably say $100k makes you eligible to be a sugar daddy. Sound about right?
That sounds about right Eric, especially when one can buy a condo in South Florida for $100,000 now!
Actually, I guess even here in expensive SF, $100,000 can start being classified as a sugar mamma or daddy. But, we still gotta take the bus.
I live in S. FL as well and agree that it is a very materialistic culture. I’m not originally from here, so it was a huge culture shock in the beginning. As Eric and Sam, I like to keep it low key as well. As Sam has had Moose for many, many years, I have had Little Red. She gets me from point A to B and that’s what matters. I don’t want someone to like me only for the car I drive. Nice article Sam. :)
I’m with JT and everyone else on the downside far outweighing the upside. I never reveal my salary, and quite frankly, if I wasn’t job hunting, I would never remember the exact figure. All I know is what my TARGET is.
I reveal my blogging income on the blog because it is entirely relevant to the blog. Unless my blog can pay me $10K per month then it will never be the main source of my income, thus I have no problem revealing my blogging income per month.
Damn, you make $10,000 a month from your day job! That’s quite a pretty penny! Just make sure the BF doesn’t take it all!
I WISH my day job paid me that much. I did the math and for the blog to pay the equivalent of my day job it would need to make that much. Keep in mind that I would have to pay taxes, get my own healthcare, retirement accounts, etc.
:)
Hmmm… fuzzy math?! Cuz if it takes $10,000 to pay the equivalent of your day job, then $10,000 is what you make at your day job! lol
Unless you are doing apples of gross pay vs. oranges of net after tax pay.
Either way, big buck! But, I will still buy you a beer when we meet up in NYC!
Sometimes I discuss finances in general terms with friends to try to figure out how to get mine in better shape, but we don’t talk specific numbers. One company I worked for actually had it in its policies that you were not to discuss the details of your compensation at all. I can’t imagine getting into the details of my compensation with any of my coworkers. That’s just crazy and asking for trouble.
Luckily no one has ever asked me straight out to reveal what I make. I’ve had some discussions with colleagues about bonuses, but never in actual dollar terms. Money is such a touchy subject! I’m sorry to hear your friend put you in that position and is being a total idiot now. That’s not cool and him not getting the job is so not your fault. I haven’t even told my parents what I make because it just feels weird and I don’t want them to feel uncomfortable because I make more than them, nor do I want them to get greedy and start expecting me to support them on everything financially. Granted I’m happy to help them out and send them money on occasion when they really need (especially for health related stuff) it but it’s never a good feeling when others start expecting you to pay for them.
I made the mistake of telling my parents one time. So far, they haven’t treated me differently. Let’s hope it stays that way! :)
You can find out median pay for your profession on the internet. There is no need for anyone to pressure someone else for a specific number. I never reveal my income to anyone except my family.
You can say something like – Oh.. I’m in the 31% tax bracket. :)
I’ve found the internet figures to be WAY off. But I guess, if you are in a very structured industry such as IT, government, teaching, etc.. sure. However, if you are in industries where the skies the limit in terms of how much you can make, then the internet doesn’t capture hardly anything.
There’s no such thing as a 31% tax bracket Joe!
I don’t reveal my income, except to close friends or family. I don’t make very much money so it can only be a positive thing. haha! There is a difference between online and offline. I can make more money by revealing how much money I make online (that’s my theory at least, along with many other bloggers who share their income).
Only upside baby! It’s OK to reveal if you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel. Just don’t when you start making much more than them.
Yes, showing income on your blog to make money is a good strategy for making more money. It’s just not my cup of tea.
That’s fair. I can respect that.
I never reveal how much I make to anyone except my wife. I include net worth and investments as private too. I will talk about about investments in general, but no specific details.
I taught a career class at my last school (high school). I brought speakers such as medical residents, engineers, business owners and psychologists. Some of my students would ask them how much they earned. I explained to my students that this personal information. A better question would be how much someone who performs that job earns to start or after 5 years. The information does nothing for the person asking the question because they cannot evaluate the other person’s perfomance or skills. It creates envy and bad feelings.
If someone asked me how much I earned (in my previous career), I would ask them why they want to know. I might even joke about the question and ask if they are writing a book. I would try to answer the question in general terms. For example, a CFO at a company of x size earns between A and B.
Maybe I am old fashioned, but your story illustrates the negative results.
Yes, my story’s purpose was to illustrate the negative results indeed.
Providing a range sounds good, and a range after a certain amount of years worked.
I think that I have to agree with this sam – My fiancee knows my income, and that’s about it. After I started a new job, I didnt tell anyone, even though it is public info (I’m a gov employee). I dont want anyone to think that I make more than them and to be frank, it’s none of their business.
I see where kevin is coming from, but I still think there may be other ways to find out that information, a lot of people feel like it’s personal (it is) and then they’ll always pressure you to do things, like go out for dinner/drinks more or whatever because they know you make a lot of money.
Government employee job income numbers are easy to find out. It’s so structured! :)
We had a similar experience some time back. One of my Dad’s best friend was urging him to make a property purchase because the property market is pretty strong where we are. He prodded and prodded, so Dad finally told him I already bought a new condo. He didn’t call Dad for weeks after the exchange.
We figured out that he only pushed Dad to invest because he thought Dad didn’t have the means to, quite forgetting Dad’s daughters were doing pretty well. He was probably using Dad to feel better about himself, since they have similar backgrounds.
Personally, I like to be open about my financial situation if I am asked, but I do take extra care if I know the person asking comes from a lower income level than me. Otherwise, I don’t volunteer, except online. I am anonymous, so it doesn’t make a difference.
I would actually like to ask the question to those who do ask me for my financial status in real life. Why do you want to know? To make yourself feel better if I am worse off? To get feedback on peer averages? To be inspired?
Sounds like good questions to ask, next time someone asks about our incomes! Glad you and your sister(s) are doing well!
Haven’t you been busting my chops about sharing my info over at my site? Was that a test…
Sharing income is never a good way to strengthen a friendship.
It wasn’t a test. If you are going to do net worth and income reports, you might as well just come clean with the actual numbers. Saying you are up 5%, when the reader has zero context of what the amount is doesn’t provide much insight. What if your net worth was $1 million? What if your net worth was $80,000? There’s a big difference. There just needs to be more context if you are going that route. Otherwise, I’d just avoid it altogether b/c the reader can’t understand how you got there.
I want to smack Peter. He put you in a terrible position, and then acted like a fool with the information he received. Unless you do the exact same job in the exact same company, you can never compare compensation accurately.
A few people know what I make, but nobody knows what we make as a family. Nothing good can come of it as far as I can tell.
How would you have handled the question Peter posed knowing what you know now? Would you still have shared your income, or would you have danced around it?
I would have lied and told him something that was only about 10-20% higher than what he made. We had a decent relationship, which is now non existant. Relationships are important to me…. way more important than money. This is where money is so evil.
It sounds like you miss your friendship with Peter- would you ever consider giving him a call?
I should. Maybe when he makes huge money and finds a wife. He’s still too angry of a person now without more success.
Forget income – never reveal you work at a job that gets you perks people want…
I work for a very sought after boutique hotel company, and everything was fine till I started telling people I get a great hotel deal. Soon, everyone and their mom wanted me to get them the deal…I did it for a few relatives and close friends at first, and then it exploded.
Everyone wants me to get them a deal, all over the country, whenever they travel. From that point on, I always tell people there is a big convention in town, and the hotel is booked!
Yikes! Well, hopefully you can hook me up at the Four Seasons or The St. Regis one of these days. Thanks in advance! j/k
Yep, lie like the wind if you know you make much more and don’t want to piss anybody off. When my story, I figured he need to know the exact figures to make a better decision in his negotiation process. Mistake.
True charity is anonymous indeed.
I never got angry at people who earn more, it makes me work more for my money and have bigger plans ;)
When I had a regular job we kinda knew our salaries, since most made the same money. After we parted and now I’m working as a web designer at my small firm, I don’t like to disclose too much about my money, since now I earn 4-8 times more than most my colleagues and they are not gonna be too happy about it.
So, I think that now, as I am getting ‘older’, I start valuing my privacy some more.
That’s a good attitude to have man! I wish everybody had that attitude.
Hi Sam – this one was right on the money. I have recently doubled my income and am trying to shut up about it. My girlfriend needs money for cigarettes (I don’t smoke) going out to coffee (I go sit on the Riva, but once or twice a week max). In short – YIKES! I have been keeping things vague and now I know to continue doing so. The vaguer, the better. Thanks for a great read.
Congrats for doubling your income! That must be great feeling yah?!
If your gf knows you now make double, at least you know she’ll never leave you! lol
Enjoy your new wealth, share a little, and definitely don’t tell a soul Anastasia!
I try to be mysterious when it comes to money/income. I thank my father for this trait. Growing up, if I asked him for $20 he would gasp as if it was the last $20 he had. It really taught me to value what I was getting.
It wasn’t until recently that he opened up his investments to myself and my siblings. We were astonished when we saw he was a millionaire many times over.
Had I known this growing up, I’m sure I would’ve acted differently.
Smart father! Mysterious is a good way to go when it comes to money!
I agree that discussing salary is a bad idea. I always offer this advice to my staff members. It can certainly lead to moral issues and productivity levels within a department if staff members are more concerned with what the next guy makes.
Even when people have the equal job sometimes experience, education differences may affect the salary they earn.
Salaries are NEVER fair bc someone always thinks they deserve more! It’s inevitable!
I complete agree – telling someone what you earn only sets things up for comparisons. Regardless of how “ok” you or the other party seems with it, issues always crop up and can lead to resentment over one thing or another.
I think income, like everything else, is relative. I can discuss wages with my coworkers because we all make the exact same amount regardless of experience or length of time with the agency. I typically don’t, because there’s no point, but it wouldn’t really matter in my case.
I don’t mind telling close friends or family what I make because my income is pathetic. If I had a decent or high salary, I’d be more likely to keep it to myself. I don’t have to worry about anyone being jealous right now though!
Always looking on the brightside! I like it!
So how much do you make?
$36k a year before I changed jobs. If I had to estimate my annual income based off the last 7 pay periods, it would be less than minimum wage.
See? No one is jealous. No one is upset. Because I don’t make squat. :)
Cool! That means incremental blog income can make a big difference for you! Which should motivate you more than others who make more. You are in a very fortunate position!
Discussing finances with any one can be a volatile situation. And Income salaries is something I think should be never revealed unless you FULLY trust the person. For me, I only trust my immediate family members and maybe some close friends with that type of information.
I think you caved too easily to give out your income, you need to wait until you have a 3 ft putt and say “If I make this putt you stop bugging me about it!” Get yo game face on!! LOL
Hahaha, yep, caved too soon! I’ve known him for years though. I donno man, but yeah, shoulda done it differently that’s for sure!
Hey Sam, everyone assumes Docs make money to burn. Of course in the current health care environment many financial and tech jobs bring in a lot more. And there is very little growth in our industry. You make what you make frequently for years.
But salary is only a small part of the equation. There are a lot of broke folks who make a great salary. Just look at pro athletes to see what little result income has on net worth.
Most are broke less than 5 years after they leave the pro ranks.
Doc, i just assume you are ROLLING in dough after 25 years in the business!
I can’t wait for our lobster tail + steak dinner!
I recently built an online business that’s making me 10 times more than I made at my former day job. I’m also writing a book about how to do the same thing. I that book, I announced that my business is making over $30,000/month. I hesitated doing so, but I think it’s necessary for me to say this so people will take me seriously and can see what’s possible in their business. (Although I don’t disclose how much of that money actually gets to me personally. But it doesn’t take much to support my family. We only own what we can fit in our carry-on suitcases, for example.)
It’s true that wealth really is relative. If you think that making $2,000/month is bottom of the barrel, try talking to someone in Latin America making $500/month or someone in Africa making less than $10/month. Chances are, you’re filthy stinking rich!
I suppose not disclosing your income makes it easier for others not to be jealous, but it’s their choice is they want to be jealous or not. Of course it’s not nice to go up to someone you know is struggling to make $100/month and out of the blue tell them you make $2,000 — it can be rude to rub it in people’s faces or put yourself on a pedestal. But it depends on the person, their desires, and your motives for telling them. Personally, I was always inspired when I learned how much money people made to support their lifestyles — it encouraged me to work harder to get there myself.
If people know you have money, they may expect you to pay more for things or give more to others. And giving is wonderful! But you can’t give to everybody no matter how much you have. Learning when to give and when not to give is part of having money, and shouldn’t be an embarrassment. If you’re upset that I don’t give some of my “excess” money to you, ask yourself why you don’t give some of your “excess” money to someone who makes less than you, that you don’t know. Let’s stop judging each other, and just enjoy the money we work for, giving where we can to help each other.
$30,000 a month is sweet income. You’ve gotta share what the URL address is! Yes, in your case, might as well chronicle the amount in the book, and help people believe they can make more.
The truth is that privacy is golden. People can get so emotional and messed up over money that they forget all common sense. Such things are best left unmentioned.
No arguments here. I cherish my privacy so much and don’t like to be bothered really.
I feel the same way. Almost nothing good can come from revealing your income. I tell people what I make on my website, because it’s really not that much money (yet), but I never tell anyone what I make at my day-time job. Like you said, their attitude will change either one way or the other. It’s best to say nothing and continue as usual with your friendship.
The question is, what happens when you do make a lot of money online. Is there a point where you stop?
That is a good point. If I’m making enough to quit my day job, then I think I might stop revealing my income.
Sounds like a logical progression! I hope you get there! However, once you stop, we’ll all know based on your last report how much you make at your day job! lol
Your ex-friend had the problem. i don’t believe you did anything wrong. Definitely all his fault.
I know it’s not polite to ask about salary. I have a couple good friends who live a good lifestyle and I’m SO curious to know how much they make. I’ve never asked though because I know I shouldn’t.
I don’t tell people what I make from my real job either. Depends on who they are though. They’d have to be a close friend. It’s a reasonable amount so that’s why I don’t mind. Now if I was making over a million a year, I’d be more hesitant to tell people that, even close friends.
I donno Benny, even your close close friends, I think best not to tell them a specific number. Close friends are even more precious to risk losing!
Speak in ranges.
Thanks for this post. It’s not how much you make that matters anyways, it’s what you do with your money and how much you have left over.
I never reveal my salary to anyone, especially the exact amount. When I’m in a situation where I do feel forced to, I usually give them a range. You’re absolutely right though, people always identify you based on how much money you make. I even have that tendency myself unto others sometimes.
This is especially tricky at work, given what will happen if you find out someone makes more for the same job, or perhaps even a lesser job. This is why managers don’t encourage it, but sooner or later, I think it eventually does come out.
As for talking with strangers or friends that are not super-close, I agree that it’s not the best idea to let them know exactly, for the reasons you mentioned.
With strangers and not close friends, maybe it’s safer Yo reveal if one is so compelled, bc the downside is who cares, you dont know then well. The opposite is for close friends, ironically.
Yeah that makes sense too, actually. I think it really depends on the person. I’ve discussed this with a close friend at work, while with another close friend who I know can be somewhat competitive, I only stick to vague estimates. If he says “Oh I make around $40,000” then I say “yeah, I make something like that, too.”.
You’re right about needing to be sensitive to the feelings of the other person — it’s not the money that’s evil but rather our feelings of jealously and envy, but that’s human nature.
Cut that $40k figure down by 30%!
I usually tell people I’m just over 6 figures. Many of my friends are in or about that mark. I was accused of bragging one to many times after telling people my true income after they asked. So, I tell them numbers they can relate too.
Even in SF or NYC I wouldn’t tell people I’m just over 6 figures. I would tell them, “I’m just trying to survive.”
Try it sometimes.
Will do :-)
One downside of telling your friends how much you make is you end up forking up up the bill more often every time you go out. =(
Indeed. Robin, I expect you to hook me up with some Korean BBQ in LA since I know what you make. Thanks buddy!
I totally agree, and I got the same advice from my father when I was young. Nothing good will ever come of it. I say this to people about a lot of things these days, like starting a fight over something that doesn’t matter, gossiping, etc. Sure, bad can come of these things, but there’s never any benefit – so why bother?
What about blog income though? As we mesh our off line and online lives into one with these conferences.
I don’t really view the online thing as a big deal. For one, very few people even know I blog. None of my co-workers and very few friends and family. Of the ones that DO know, there are only a handful that have looked at it more than once. So, of the perhaps 1-2 people that actually know me that have seen an income update, what I make there isn’t a significant amount of money, it’s just “side-money” so I don’t think people would judge me much the way knowing a full-time salary could lead to problems.
Great post. Bad ex-friend. Talking money with people is always a little tricky. Too much is placed on what you earn and what you have. If two friends have the same mindset and are secure in themselves, even if the money gap is huge, the friendship should not feel a strain.
It might be one thing if we are the same age, he went to the same schools, got the same grades, and worked at the same place. But he doesn’t.
Yes, disappointing ex-friend indeed.
Well, no. Money isn’t evil – in ANY regard. The problem was that your “friend” wasn’t a friend, and while I never think it’s a wise idea to disclose your income in anything more than the most general terms, this particular situation only highlighted what ALREADY existed.
Many companies consider it a firing offense to discuss salaries with other employees. I think that similar restraint is a good idea for friends as well.
As someone said, disclose your income, and see who your friends really are!
Money is evil. I’m reminded of this every day. That’s why we have protesters on the streets!
You ex-friend needs to focus his attention on getting a better job/continued job search instead of stop being friends with you. If he is so insecure/competitive that he cannot stand anyone how makes significantly more than him, then he’s got a big problem.
I never tell others how much I make. If someone wanted to ask me how much to expect in my field, I’d give them a range but never my personal income. I think people who make relatively more than their peers have more reasons to hide their income than those who make a similar or lower salary than their group. I’ve personally learned how fast the green-eyed monster can come out of people as soon as they even have an inkling that I may make more than them – even if I worked really really hard to get to my current position, and the person I’m talking to would never do my job as they consider it too boring/office-y etc.
Green-eyed monster indeed! So sad……. so annoying!
for me it’s very much “situational”. i have revealed in the past when i’ve felt that was the right thing to do but have held my ground for the most part. generally i agree the downsides are far greater and one must not if there is no genuine need / objective to.
i think it is ok for people that make a living online, especially when much of it comes from product / affiliate sales. in fact in many cases it is an expectation. for example, i blog about expedited wealth building or passive income, then i better be able to show how i am applying what i am preaching and whether it works. a reader will always aks – what qualifies me to talk about what i do and why should they listen and follow. proof works and nothing contradicts that.
Do people start wondering online though, “Is this the only way you are making money is by buying stuff from me to make money?”
Does it not feel a slight bit off?
I don’t reveal my income to my friends. Family yes. But friends tend to borrow money if they know you make more than them. They tend to judge you based on how much you make and how much you spend. I’d rather lie and name a much lesser figure for my own peace of mind.
Sounds good. I would even hide it from family, unless you are the most giving person ever or make a very low amount.
Had to change the link on my comment above. It still points out to my old site. Didn’t mean to spam your comment thread. :)
Great post Financial Samurai! This is so true, some people freak out when they realize how much you make especially when they make less. The same is true for net worth. I never disclose that amount to family or friends.
Net worth is even more touchy. People will start blowing holes into your calculations!
When I bought a house, I hesitated to tell my friends. None of them owned a home, and I didn’t want to come across as wealthier than them. I seriously contemplated acting like I was renting my house.
I made the same mistake and told friends I bought a rental. Never again. I could say it without any underlying meaning, it it will just come across as boasting.
I’ll check out Glassdoor, however, I don’t really care about other people’s incomes so much ,as I’m not looking to move. Besides, headhunters tell me straight up what the competition is making.
Glad you don’t begrudge anybody and get motivated!
While I don’t think you should ever need to reveal your exact income, I actually think it’s really important to talk about the general range of what’s acceptable. We had to pass the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act for a reason. I actually won’t take a job with a company that makes discussing compensation a disciplinary offense, because it enables them to get away with pay discrimination.
I happen to know exactly what every person in my department makes because I do the budget; it’s my job. However, my company is also pretty transparent in its pay grades, so it’s easy to give people the range of pay, and also tell them that midpoint is generally our target starting salary, and then they can use that information as they see fit.
I have also learned what friends of mine make (not that I remember, because I honestly don’t care) when I’ve helped them set up budgets. I had one friend, who when negotiating her latest new position, was given two offers, higher base salary vs higher commissions. She called me and I ran the break even for her. Do I remember any of the numbers? No. Is she making significantly more than me? Yes. Do I care? No. She’s a few years older and has tons of experience in her field. She’s still probably making less than she’s actually worth.
But part of my attitude about money might be because my group of friends is, for the most part, still people I met in undergrad. We’ve been friends for 15+ years now. Some people are bank tellers and some people are lawyers, some work in manufacturing and others are game designers. We all know there are huge income gaps, and we also all know that that doesn’t mean much when it comes to individual (our couple) financial health. Saying “that’s not in the budget” or “we can’t afford that” is an option whether you make just over minimum wage or just over 6 figures.
What if yor friend was the same age and made much more?
Pretty neat you get to see everybody’s comp!
My friend is only about 5 years older than I am, and does make much more than I do. But she’s now a VP of Sales and she’s very good at her job. The fact that she makes so much more than I do doesn’t change the fact the she and her husband are struggling financially (more so than we are), due to other circumstances. There’s also the fact that I wouldn’t want her work schedule. There are trade offs everywhere.
Now, if we were on the same career path and about the same level in our careers, it would make me consider my current position carefully and figure out if I really wanted to stay there, but it wouldn’t change the fact that she’s my friend and I know that she’s worked for what she has.
As for seeing everyone’s comp, I’ve been in a position to see that for almost 7 years, so I don’t even think about it most times. It also means I know about layoffs way before they are announced, re-orgs and all that sort of thing because of the need to to financial planning around it. Sometimes it really sucks to know these things and ethically not be able to speak about it.
Even thought I don’t make that much, I still don’t give the number I make in absolute terms. If you don’t, people learn not to ask you. That said, I have childhood friends like you and I actually occasionally write about them. The too don’t want to bring undo attention upon themselves…
Funny, but I think it’s best to live closet rich, especially if most of your family and friend grew up making much less than you do. By family I mean cousin and maybe even direct siblings…
Sorry about you losing a good friend, perhaps he’ll wise up and realize that you didn’t do anything wrong and can help him in his career in addition to gaining your friendship back…
Yes sir Don! Closet rich indeed! It’s so fun and housing draw any undue attention on yourself.
I think knowing your peer group salary can be very useful. That’s why I’m glad for websites like Glassdoor – you can see what others make in your job, so it gives you a good point of reference.
I reveal my exact income every month since I do make it online, my readers got me there and seem inspired by knowing, and it keeps me going – like a kick in the pants to do even better. Would keeping my mouth shut be simpler? Yeah, but as long as my audience sees it as a positive rather than a negative, I’m blowing off the naysayers. ;-)
I also reveal my exact income from my day job and my online business on my blog. And I’ll do it in real life too… if someone ask for it. I would never come to my friends and family and tell them upfront how much I make… This would be seen as arrogance.
However, I share my income with one of my friend as a source of motivation and because we always feel happy for him when he gets a raise, and vice-versa. So it’s not viewed as competition but more as encouragement when we talk about our income.
There are plenty of people like Peter and I don’t think I want any of them to be my friend. If this guy was really your friend, he would not reconsider his friendship over a dollar sign. This has showed you how he values friendship.
I like to know other’s people income as I am curious to know how people make their living. What great ideas they had. How they have built a successful company.
Being jealous of someone because he is making more than you is just stupid. You just have to do what he does (e.g. all his sacrifices!) and you will be making the same income. It is as simple :-)
Is there an income level where you wouldn’t share your income though? What if you made $500,000 or $1 million, would you still reveal?
I don’t mind telling people how much I earn, probably because it is very average. I might be a little bit above average for my blue-collar profession, but less than average as compared to my white-collar counterparts.
One of the early posts on my money blog talked talked precisely about my specific income. I figured folks out there might be curious about the income level of an average trucker.
When my income increases though, due to investments and other ventures, I can definitely see the benefits to keeping it secret. Great post here and great advice!
It’ a shame indeed. I think I’m just going to lie next time.
So did your buddy buy a Maserati or an Aston Martin? In either case you guys must be making a lot of money because both cars are well over $100K!
I generally agree with your thoughts, but that is probably because I have the sort of income that would mark me for death at an OWS encampment. Conspicuous consumption is frowned upon and it is nice to be able to fly under the radar as much as possible.
In the overall discussion of personal finance there are one or two close friends that I do share income figures with when discussing goals and planning, if they are really your friends it should not be an issue.
He bought a one year old Aston Martin DB9 convertible. I don’t know how much he spent, but it definitely not cheap!
In the finance world everyone’s bonus (which represents >>50% of compensation in most cases) is usually public knowledge about 20 minutes after they find out what it is. Some people tell/brag/complain. Some people ask. Management leaks. A couple weeks before bonuses are decided is “campaign season” anyways so everyone’s been talking about it.
It can definitely cause problems even though the industry is mostly thick skinned people and radical differences in compensation are the norm.
Are you in the finance world mate?
How is it looking for the 2011 comp.
Sort of on the periphery – I’m not employed by a finance firm. I actually work for an engineering firm, but I’m involved in the industry.
Everything I’ve heard is that 2011 was pretty bad except for people associated with T-bond primary desks (MF Global excluded of course).
Sorry to put down your friend (I’m not, really), but this guy is an idiot. And worrying about what kind of information you share based on the actions of an idiot is also foolish.
I’m not saying it’s a good idea to broadcast your earnings but worrying about alienating your so-called “friends” is not a reason to withhold that information. If you have people in your circle who would treat you any differently based on knowing your income then TELL THEM IMMEDIATELY SO YOU CAN IDENTIFY WHO THEY ARE AND GET RID OF THEM. There is no benefit to having people like that in your life. Iron sharpens iron and people that are worth having around will only be strengthened by your success. All others can quickly hit the curb.
From time to time, I share my compensation, I am an IT consultant, with three of my close friends. One of them owns IT business and the other is physician and third one is colleague (strange right). First two of them acknowledged that I make more money than most people. Strangely, physician who is in internal medicine told me that I make more than him too. Luckily, all of them are ‘true’ friends. Other than occasional remarks, both of them treat me well and none of the past relationship changed. The third one who happens to be my colleague happened to have lesser compensation than I did. So, we sort of planned in a way that he could get more compensation so it is almost on par with mine. To me friendship or relationship is give and take. I am always of the belief that the information you have should help so others (in particular close ones) and hopefully they leverage it constructively.
My belief is that you should be share such sensitive information with close friends though my wife disagrees to the point that I am a fool. So far my openness with my friends and relatives worked for me. I get the same respect/warmth as before.
I am open about everything not just financial stuff. They all appreciate my openness and it has served me well.
I guess, it all depends on how you put it across so you do not come across as intimidating or arrogant. Sure, the relationship while strengthening, there could be some transition period where it could be little unsettling. In the end, it should work out fine as long as you choose right people as your friends. You will amazed
It is lot of stress if you keep sensitive information to just to yourself. It is a great stress reliever too if you are open about things to your close friends and relatives. If at all, my relationships strengthened not that they were weak before.
You can make out who your true friends are much before you share financial information.
I agree with what you said. I feel frustrated whenever my mum or my relatives ask about my salary. Sometime, I don’t know how my salary concerns them. I scared if I were to tell my mum about my salary, she will ask for more despite I have other obligations like car loan and study loan. It gives me nerve-wrecking moments and total anxiety! I don’t know how to brush her off whenever she asks me about my salary. Hope you can advise! Thanks.
it’s always a mistake, but people, especially friends get huffy and persistent about demanding to know
There is no such car as a “Masarati Vanquish”
Aston Martin Vanquish baby!
I think you did right by telling him. I think it was his fault for not evaluating the information correctly. If he was really low balled and his counter was almost 50% more then of course the company was probably not expecting to pay him that much more. If he was reasonable with the counter he could of got a foot in the door with that company, and then worked his way up to what he is worth down the road. Just my IMO.
Great advice, but my fiance, after 8 years, still won’t tell me how much money she makes…do I really need to know? Maybe not, but she surely knows how much I make due to all my colleagues makes the same amount. I think it is just as well. But, what if she doesn’t make that much and 20 years down the line, I have a great portfolio and am able to invest properly and she has nothing to show due to her not making good decisions on her money, yet she makes the same amount. Shouldn’t I be able to direct her to invest properly? I’m going to feel useless when we are both 65 and I’ve done it right and she hasn’t done a damn thing.
David, you need to know how much she makes.
It’s all about being a team.
I would certainly expect my fiancee to discuss finances, and in detail. However if your main concern is that she doesn’t live up to your standards you should do both of you a favor and end the engagement.
Really, it is all about being a team?
I thought it was all about love!
I am so naive.
Marrying a financially irresponsible individual for love is the height of stupidity. Your spouse will eventually drag you down into a pit of hell if you permit it. To believe that marriage is solely about love is incredibly naive. Good “chemistry,” trust, open communication, shared values, and a similar vision for your future together is the foundation for a sound union. Never settle for less.
I do not like revealing my compensation at all, but I recently have for my last job and current one.
I taught in Japan last year, and fellow English graduates wanted to know how much it paid. I did disclose this information to people I fully trusted or who were considering pursuing that role.
I currently work as a technical writer, and in this area, not many English graduates are fortunate enough to land such a role. So, a fellow English major was curious about my pay. I hesitated and said that I did not wish to cause tension or comparisons. He has a steady job (recently received a promotion), and he wanted to know what a writer here could make. I reluctantly revealed my salary to him, and he congratulated me and said he was very happy that a fellow English major was doing well (even better than most we know, in regards to compensation with our degree).
Others have asked me, and I told them (politely) that if they are curious, they can research the average salary for technical writers.
When I made less than everyone else I knew, they treated me like I was a little inferior. When I started making more than everyone else I knew, they either became angry or expected me to pay for everything. There is no upside to revealing how much you make and frankly it’s no one else’s business.
Hey Sam,
I gotta say man…another posting with plenty of room for discussion.
Why withhold information from people? If someone asks, why not tell them? Plus it lets you know who your real friends are. Plus open discussions about money allow you to find out what you are doing wrong and what you are doing right with your cash.
Excellent thrives in an environment of honest and transparency.
Thanks,
James
This blog is a nice find.
I just started my career and have expectations of going to senior exec. in 10 years or less. I’m very explicit about what I want my next salary to be and don’t mind telling people what my current (essentially “starting”) salary is. My little trick is that I always add the disclaimer “Yeah, but I have crazy student loan debt and am aggressively fighting it while saving for a house and retirement.” I admit that I foolishly accepted a large financial burden; people get the impression that I’m fiscally responsible for tackling it AND that I don’t actually have that much money to spare.
How’d you find my site? I’m always curious to know.
Starting off is easier because income is less and we all know how much folks make for the first 3-5 years more or less. But after the initial training phase, things get much more touchy as some people are superstars and achieve rocket income levels.
I don’t talk about what I make in specifics. I may be vague and say, “6-figures.” My peers should be within the same ballpark as me so it wouldn’t seem like I’m doing better or worse. If I ever get married, I don’t think I’ll tell her a specific number. All she has to know is that it’s enough.
It’s pretty cool that you dress down. It shows self-confidence and don’t need to show off.
I do that too, just so less people hassle me when I’m out and about. People will think: Oh, he’s just a poor college kid.
This is good stuff, though I don’t think I’ve ever seen this recommendation played out anywhere: “If your business model is making money by showing others how much money you can make by making money off others, really try and reach out to those who’ve bought your products and failed.”
I see both sides of this. Maybe an updated post with “the upside of revealing your income,” since so many people see the value in doing so. If anything, it is nice to have a hard figure to attach to blog income because it might help motivate people to stick at it for years at a time, especially when it is far from lucrative for most!
I have a girlfriend whom I’ve known for years and is very competitive. I get annoyed every time she tells everyone how much money they spend on everything. I just went to her son’s three year birthday party where she was making a circle telling everyone how much she paid for the venue, food and favors. She is the type of person who judges others by what they have to show. She has tried a few different tactics to try to get me to tell her how much I make. I always just say “we could always make more but we are comfortable with what we make”. I think she is insecure and has to know if she’s doing okay by comparing herself with others. Because I choose to downplay what we make by not showing her what we have, she thinks we make less than her and leaves us alone.
Hmm, that does sound like insecurity and a little annoying.
But you like her good enough to stay with get so that’s all what really matters yeah?
Great article. I have a family related predicament!
On my side of the family, we don’t tell each other what we make. Frankly, it’s nobody’s business and can only complicate things. I’m close to 30 and my parents still have no idea what I make, which has worked well!
My wife’s family is very open about discussing incomes and financial stuff and always has been. So we’re at the point where they (my parents in law) expect to know (play by play, rise by rise, promotion by promotion) what I make. I’ve explained to my wife that I’m uncomfortable both discussing and revealing what I make. So she’s covering as best she can. But the questions are still coming!
Apart from me not liking this in general, I feel like there’s information asymmetry between my own parents and my wife’s parents which makes it worse.
Anyway – WTF should I do! Frank conversation? Or is this blowing it out of proportion?
Wow, nosy in laws!
Have a frank conversation after you read this post why you must remain Stealth!
https://www.financialsamurai.com/2013/11/04/the-rise-of-stealth-wealth-guide-to-staying-invisible-from-society-rage/
Just tell them. It literally doesn’t matter & you’re just being an asshole to your in-laws by not sharing in their culture.
I know this is a shocker to you, but they are not your family. That is why they are called “in-laws”. Unless you married your sister?
I just came a cross the article and can relate.
I have been in my field for many years and through continued education and hard work I have found myself in a very blessed position. So, you may be asking, what’s the issue? Well, one is that I come from a working class family and have greatly outpaced my surroundings. For example, my wife and I still live in the same starter house as we did years ago. We actually love the area and have raised our kids here and don’t want to leave. The tricky part is that as my career has grown, we are starting to exude success even though we speak little of finances.
Personally, I have only disclosed my income range with close relatives. Though we have a tight and loving family, I do get a couple who joke about me paying for food, drinks, etc… I feel joking between family it’s tolerable, but this is occasionally done around outsiders which is not cool. I correct these comments and they accommodate, but not without jibes. They rationalize this by saying they are proud of me, and that I should be proud of my accomplishments and so on. I guess? But it’s hard when I’ve overheard money related comments from friends and family members spouses, such as “why cant we vacation here” or “why can’t we do this or that?”… From what I gather it seems I’m getting used as a gage of success which is to me terrible and totally unintended…
I guess my point is that one’s finances may not need to be verbally disclosed to be estimated by people around you. I feel that with certain careers sometimes success is estimated by outsiders based one’s behavior, career discussions, professional friendships etc. As a note, I am not arrogant or extravagant in the least, but my career life and obligations do put some pressure on my personal life.
Just wondering if anyone has experienced this?
You are right. There is likely an embedded assumption how well off someone is by their age, experience, and occupation. But with all these stories about people spending more than they make, it’s not a certainty.
I often wonder why a 55+ year old is quoted in the paper as being devastated by a job loss when they had 30+ years to save and invest. The answer is that I guess many people don’t spend within their means. Life just happens and will only be rectified if the pain is bad enough.
I agree with everything you wrote. Sometimes we can all succumb to external pressures of what we should be doing versus what is prudent given one’s individual circumstance.
This is where “keeping up with the joneses, or in todays terms, Kardashians” come in to play. For example, one colleague of mine (56yo) feels compelled to pay for his kids education in full. Two are already in Ivies, one a senior, the other a freshman both seeking advanced degrees. The youngest – a junior in HS – is also bright and wants to attend a top school as well. Yikes, talk about financially burdensome!
Don’t get me wrong, paying for his kid’s education is admirable. However, it still comes with the cost of restricting retirement savings at an age when this is wildly important. Point is, if he subsidized payments or passed this full obligation on to his kids, they would be able to rebound with time on their side, and hopefully great future jobs. My coworker on the other hand will be in his sixties by the time this is said and done, and will have missed out on potentially hundreds of thousands in savings. Heaven forbid he loses his job or has a major life event. He would then become one of the people you describe seeing in the paper.
Maybe it would be admirable if they were helping other peoples kids, but their own kids are their own personal responsibilities. I wouldn’t call it “admirable” to raise them well, rather “not despicable”.
People without the money to give their kids a good upbringing probably shouldn’t be having so many kids in the first place. It’s the parents’ decision to have children, and nobody elses. These are burdens the parents chose to take on. Very few people conceive unwillingly. (am i allowed to say rape on this blog?)
I really do not understand why American parents just won’t help their kids pay their tuition. American parents are driving nice cars and living in big nice houses, but many of them just refuse to help the kids out. I do not understand why. I am a Chinese. I grew up in a poor family with my dad were making $5 a day and probably had work 200 days out of a year. And my parents saved every penny through the past 20 years to send me to good high school (high school is not free in China) and college and paid my tuition, dorms, food and everything. And 99% of my classmates’ parents paid their tuition too no matter what. And it’s considered very despicable and mean if parents do not pay for it.
Because kids are stupid as hell and will forgo a perfectly good in-state school for an out of state school strictly “for the experience”, racking up a bill that could easily cover a brand new Lamborghini. Most American parents are drowning in debt themselves. It’s not that they don’t want to pay or help out, its just that they cannot front the money for what is essentially a brand new top tier sports car. Add multiple kids into the equation, and the problem gets even worse. Add retarded degrees like feminist native american dance studies, which no one will hire for into the equation, and it gets EVEN WORSE. It’s considered “normal” to go wherever your heart desires, even if the bill would end up costing you a brand new townhouse.
To forgo it because you know you can’t afford it would be “un-American” and akin to denying someone the right to be successful. Anyhow, the end result is the same. Corporation owners have a guarantee of an endless supply of slaves who have no alternative but to get a job, and the middle class stays enslaved generation to generation.
As teenager students, many of them do not have enough knowledge of society yet and nor can they make good decisions. Indeed, parents should guide them while they are choosing school and majors instead of letting them do whatever they want.
My son graduated HS in June, and is working for a year before starting Community College. This was MY idea. Why start school when you have no idea what you want to go for, and I wanted him to work, like I did every summer through high school, so he’d know what’s it’s like to work a job you don’t like.A couple days ago he told me about 2 of his friends who are now in college in Az. We live in California. My first question was “Did they get a scholarship?” When he said he didn’t know, my next response was “well if they didn’t, they’re stupid for going to school out of state,and they’re going to end up with Student Loan Debt.” I then gave him an example of resident vs non resident tuition, and I will continue to give him these examples. Right now, he wants to attend Sac State after his 2 years at CC, and that’s fine. Attending college out of state is just ridiculous imo, unless you have a full ride, like his friend has to Missouri to play Football. They attended daycare,preschool,grade school,hs and graduated together. I knew long ago that kid would have a scholarship for sports, and he’s a nice kid too. His parents have good jobs(Union Pacific Railroad and I believe mom is an Accountant) but I don’t believe even they would pay for their kids tuition out of state, because they have common and money sense.
Is there “out of state” tuition for CC? If so, that is ridiculous if you can pay in-state tuition!
I think it’s great to go to CC for two years, save money, figure out what you do, get better grades, and then transfer to a more well known school. I would have done it, but I got into my first choice, The College of William & Mary, where tuition was only $2,800 a year in state back in 1995!
See: Public School Or Private School? Depends On Your Fear And Guilt Tolerance
ohh! … and add to that equation if they choose a degree and then change to a total different ‘mayor’ and then have to start all over again and pay for even more classes! true! Or if they go to college and change there degree a few times and then ending having a job in something totally different. That will break the parent pockets!! I think that parent should help in someway but no necessarily paying the whole college tuition no matter what their economic situation that they have, cause nobody gonna save money for their retirement but them selfs. So everybody just have to plan accordingly. Sometimes there is scholarship that students can apply, (some scholarships take into consideration the parents income which I think is dumb considering that not everybody depends in their parents income) and there are many resources now a day that can help with tuition. College can be expensive but there is colleges out of state like in Puerto Rico where u can expect to pay half of the cost if not less. But my point is that is good to help your kids within your mean whenever you can but not spend all your retirement money and spoils them f you are not financially capable of doing it.
I found this article by searching for “Why can’t I seem to make what my friends and family can?”.
While I don’t want this to come off sounding like a sob story, I felt like I had to say something here after reading so many of the comments about how “Peter is an idiot” and how “Peter wasn’t a real friend”.
I have nothing against success, but it’s a hard fact of life that relating to those with more success is extremely difficult, especially when you met as peers. I’ve lost many friends growing up simply because our interests grew apart. For example, I had a friend long ago who dropped out of high-school and immediately started making 100k a year. After about a year, we just couldn’t talk to each other anymore. Our lives became drastically different as well as the people we associated with. I was a poor engineering student while he was a well off 17 year old entrepreneur.
I agree that you didn’t do anything wrong and that Peter was indeed the one with the problems, but I really think your readers should give Peter a break. People here are describing Peter as some sort of terrible friend because he let “jealousy” overcome him. Well I’m sorry, but jealousy only begins to describe the feeling Peter probably felt. Peter probably felt INADEQUATE learning that his friend (the financial samurai) was making significantly more after the same experience. This feeling of inadequacy compounds on itself, and salary plays a huge role.
Sure, you may see it as shallow, but I’m sure it was very emotionally taxing of Peter realizing that after all this time, his work wasn’t paying off the same as his peers. This train of thought quickly leads a person to feeling inadequate, which nobody likes to feel. It even causes some to give up completely if it goes on for too many years.
Often times someone puts in way more effort/sacrifice to get where he is in life, I understand this, but sometimes it just doesn’t feel this way. For example, if you had a friend from high-school who started as your peer, but 10 years down the line, you realize that he gets paid over twice your salary, you’re going to start second guessing your entire existence. This can result in people giving up their career entirely as they see no correlation between the effort they put in and their salaries. It becomes more clear that some people just “have what it takes” while others don’t, and it sucks when your slowly realize your social circle has what it takes while you don’t.
I just wanted to add my 2 cents as a lot of successful people do indeed some to lose touch with basic human emotion and empathy.
In the case of a regular job, it certainly can feel hopeless if your peer is significantly out-doing you. But in a lot of cases, the peers dont have jobs at all and are involved in various entrepreneurial endeavors.
So its not necessarily that they’re that much smarter or harder working than you by many orders of magnitude.
Its just that their strategy has implicit control, leverage, and higher profit margins (depending on which market), and your strategy sucks in comparison. There are many profitable business opportunities that require low startup costs. It comes down to your willingness to learn, experiment, grind, and do something outside the box.
You dont have to re-create Microsoft.
People have made millions selling bug spray and paint remover. Virtually any product or service that is of superior quality and/or a good bargain with a pre-existing demand can get you well off, if not rich.
The hardest part is probably defying conventions and prejudice from normal people.
Insightful comments, Ben. What I find most frustrating is when you know, for certain, you have more talent than a more financially successful peer, yet sometimes, by just by the sheer quirk of fate, they are raking in the dough while you are not. Sometimes, regardless of the excellence of the strategy employed, one’s efforts still don’t pay off. It is a great struggle to not allow bitterness to set in, to keep one’s chin up, and strive to try again, to improve… and sometimes again and again.
I did very much appreciate the observations on moderate living in the article. I quite happily drive a 13 year old Dodge pickup. Dandy rig, and looks nice, runs beautifully, has plenty of horsepower to meet my needs and my payments are super low. I’m thrilled to get up every day and try hard, and am so grateful for all that I have. The tendency Peter had of thinking that “stuff” is going to make him happy, or that resplendent possessions are the gauge one’s worth is a trap that so many people fall in to. It’s a trick that can choke the life out of the soul.
Definitely can make one question the point of it all if have not obtained some “must have” goal of great wealth.
Thanks for the article Sam. I feel like I made a mistake, I told my best friend that I make a six-figure salary. However I’m about to be laid off soon / my contract will ramp down. She used to work until she decided to go back to school, where her international student fees are pretty high. While trying to take a decision and explaining to her my situation, about wether to jump ship first and follow my dreams or wait it out, I blurted out that I make a six-figure salary. She sounded a little surprised but took it in stride and we discussed the dilemma. She knows I won’t be making this kind of money in the future with the dream job that I will be pursuing after this contract is over.
Is it terribly wrong for me to have done that? Now that she’s back to being a student, I felt really bad about blurting that piece of information out (not that she thinks I was making less than 50K, but still). She keeps things in confidence and I trust her, I just feel bad about how I said it.
I’m realizing that it gets really bad when your friends with more education find out that you make more money than them. They’ve all gone on to get graduates degrees and it really has not seemed to have paid off: now they’re over $50,000 in debt and still looking for a job. They make a lot of passive aggressive comments to me about it as they apparently think I should be making less than them. I’m not going to apologize for it though, I made the most with the opportunities that were given to me and it has paid off.
I grew poor, I had a baby when I was 18 in highschool. People told me I would fail. At 19 I got a job at a company making over 100,000 a year gross. That same year I bought rental property. I have continued to expand, and make money off different things. Because I never went to college, when people ask how much money I make at 25 I told them. We don’t flaunt. People think the opposite, I love to prove them wrong. I sure wish I would have seen this advice at some other point in life. DO NOT TELL. I have issues with family and friends over money, I am an Entreprenur spirt. I talk about money constantly. Big mistake.
update Now I am in college. I filled a 13 to keep my estate because I lost my career. Still doing very well, but don’t know how to tell people it is not 100,000. Take this mans advice don’t tell…it should’nt matter. Its all ready said enough for however your living. You should’nt go out of your way to hide it, but don’t tell. Family should not know either.
You should never tell… I have friends always using different tactics to try to gather information about how much I make, how much rent I pay, etc.
I always avoid the answer, sometimes in a very obvious way. Why do people need to know? There really is nothing useful they can do with that information.
Its better not to reveal because you never know who will knock on your door in the middle of the night with knife in his hand..
You will enjoy these posts about Stealth Wealth! Join the movement!
https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-rise-of-stealth-wealth-guide-to-staying-invisible-from-society-rage/
https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-stealth-wealth-compendium-useful-phrases-to-help-deflect-success/
I 100% AGREE with everyone who said that wasn’t your friend! I strongly dislike such types of people and would be rejoiced to rid them out of my life.
The ONLY time I like competition is when playing games. When it comes to money, materialistic things, relationships, etc. I HATE competition. I get extra motivation by others success; I LOVE to see people I know come up…!!!
It’s better not to tell anyone what you make, not only to protect yourself from people who would lust after your property and be jealous of you, but also to protect yourself from shame/embarrassment if your income level decreases. It’s your nebulous income, that uncertainty that gives you an edge.
People will always pick up on little clues about your income level just by you living your life, no matter how humble you choose to live it. But if you don’t put a number on it, you have power.
“It’s better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt,” Mark Twain. You can change that to say it’s better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are rich (or average) than to open it and remove all doubt. Even if you’re rich, you would lose power. In a game of poker who has the power? It’s the one who reveals nothing in their face no matter what cards they hold.
Love the poker analogy! Well explained. Thanks.
I think it is wise not to reveal how wealthy you are to strangers. You would welcome unwanted dishonest friends who can be best avoided. However, I do not find any harm in revealing how much you make, to friends. If your friend envies you or hates you for this, then that friend is not worth having, in my opinion. It is always good to make friends who share common interest than make friends in the same wealth bracket we are in.
However, revealing a salary to co-workers is a completely different issue. Companies and corporations want you to believe that it is in your best interest to not reveal your salaries. This scenario is only in the best interest of the corporations. By sharing salary number with your peers you make sure that on an average you are not being underpaid and overworked. It doesn’t make sense to share the same with people working under you.
i can see how revealing would cause envy. you saying $36 is taking a pay cut made me sad to read because at 40yrs old and as a female I will be lucky to make $22 at my new job :(
I like this article.I think it is always best not to reveal how much money you make or if you get a bonus or any extra money to anyone.If you must share with someone,go online and share anonymously.I recently had to learn that the hard way,when I was supposed to get some financial help from someone and I told a couple of friends about it and how I was glad that I was going to get that financial help.Well anyway about a week later,the individual who I was supposed to get financial help from,said that they can no longer help me,and did not give me a good reason why.I know that I’ll never know if that had anything to do with my friends saying something to them.However,one of my friends seem to think that I am ok financially where I am and that I don’t need any help financially from anyone.But,they don’t know about the extra expenses that I have had or debt since the last time I talked to them about my finances and I really did need that help.So from now on,I’m not going to talk to friends about how much I make,any extra money I get or how I pay for anything.If just going to avoid those questions or say I got a second job to pay for this or that and not say exactly how much I make.
SO I am a stay at home mom since my first kid was born, that’s seven years ago. My husband started his business 5 years ago. Every year we’ve made significantly more. First, 250k…second, 380k…third 500k goes on and on(we are in the Bay Area). When we had our first kid I was on Medi CAL(7 years ago). When money first started rolling in the first year, it was exciting more for him than me. I came from a normal mid-class income family. My husband came from poor…dirty 2 bed apartment living and single mother raising 7 kids. (I had 7 in my family too :) I’ve seen what money can do to a good person(if allowed) and how people treat people that have money. You can’t have one without the other. Unless you are really good at hiding things. LOL. The first 3 years were exciting, fun and new(shine new things my husband bought). Year 3 and 4 you realize people asking for money and expecting you to pay for everything and just want to hang out with you for no particular reason. Year 4 and 5…you start noticing the haters in at least one corner of the room. I call them that bc that’s what they are….sick people. i now have a much small circle of people around me today and realize those few that are really there for ME and don’t talk about money. And now I recognize the others that really could care less about US. They are just THERE(can’t get rid of them so I can only ignore and put up with them bc they are family) I am tired of the whole rich thing poor thing talk between people. When the subject comes up I shut my mouth and watch what I say. Then again when I am around the rich people in our neighbor they are just as worst if not worst. The rich people act like they are better than you! I can’t find anyone to get this…so only a few would understand what I’m talking about. It’s a game to (some) the ones that are making a lot of $. Who has nicest car, biggest house, vacation homes. I’m so sick of both sides. I’m not sure where I fit and not sure if I really should give a damn anymore. Being here is isolating, bc people just don’t get it. *No offense guys…this has been my point of view for the longest time. I am super duper grateful to be blessed like this. But people’s got to mind there own businesses and be humble.
The problem was not that you told him how much money you make. The problem is that your friend was a jealous scrub. I have no problem telling my friends how much I made or don’t make and they have no problem telling me how well business is going for them. If a friend of mine is doing better than me, I congratulate him and learn whatever I can from him to see if I can use it to do better for myself. It works both ways. Only idiots and bums get bitter when they find out their friends make more than them. Smart people will observe and find out what they need to do to better their own situation.
You didn’t lose anything. Now you have one less scrub in your life. Go make some winner friends :)
You know what? You’re exactly right. A true friend would be happy that I provided the information he wanted, and be happy that I made what I made. Don’t waste time with people Who don’t add value to your life!
Joel…you make everything feel right and positive. Most people don’t get it like you do. And I wish I had more friends that had the same point of view as you do. People can rave about how hard and unfair it is that they have no money. But when you talk about money and you have money it can be a sticky subject.
Unfortunately, when applied to family it’s seems a little more difficult than said. :|
I agree with you Joel. A friend should be happy for your success. I had a friend early in my career who shared with me how much she made and benefits. This helped me know that I had a low ball offer and take a pass on a job.
Hey man,
I am totally against revealing your income for several reasons but there have to be better positives than the ones you’ve listed.
For example this one:
“You can play up your wealth if circumstances dictate.”
Why not just be honest and tell the truth. It’ll save you a lot of headaches (that come with lying) in future.
Anyhow, that’s just my 2 cents.
What would some of the headaches and consequences be for playing up? I still would never reveal my full income.
* Having to remember your lie.
* Not being able to afford something that you said you could.
Idk man, I can see this playing up business eventually leading to a breach of trust.
Yeah, I agree and wouldn’t reveal my income under any circumstances but I don’t see a valid reason to talk it up either.
Well that is certainly the Very Truth.
I also think keeping your income private is a good idea.
You’re right. Never tell. People who ask this question always have selfish intentions. These people deserve a lie. I think it’s better to question their question. For example, you could be sarcastic: “Oh, do you have some money for me?”
Take my case for example. I work as a bus driver. All the companies are different unions. At some of our stops, there’s other bus companies. Occasionally, you get these other drivers who think we’re all part of some brotherhood coming up and asking how much you make. It’s like, well, if i make less than you, are you going to fight for me? NO!
I recently told another bus driver from another company we don’t discuss salary. He got very, very, very butt hurt. But who cares. He’s only looking out for himself, there is no brotherhood, he would never fight for me, we’re competing companies. Get lost. Worst case scenario, you tell enough of these people how much you make, and a strike could happen.
I go to work so I can work. That’s all.
I like the attitude Jim! You’ll especially love this post: The Rise Of Stealth Wealth: Avoiding Society’s Rage
This post is also pretty good: Abolish Welfare Mentality: A Janitor Makes $271,000, Why Can’t You Too?
Dear Financial Samurai,
How the Hell can you write a post and tell everyone not to reveal how much money they earn; but you do just that at the end of your post!? I’m all for money & financial freedom, I assume from your results you worked consistently to achieve I admire that! In addition to encouraging readers to start their own website or business. But what you posted is not consistent with WHAT you posted if you know what I mean. Not sure if you wanted reactions and pissed peeps or what?
Brian, thanks for your comment. The graph below is an EXAMPLE of an income statement from a person who started his own website to be his own boss and break free. I’ve gone ahead and bolded “example” to clarify. The graph is used to show the possibilities.
Related:
Why Everybody Should Start Their Own Website
Abolish Welfare Mentality: A Janitor Maes $271,000, Why Can’t You Too?
okay Ive had a big six figure event that has happened in my life. Unfortunately I cant be stealth with it because as part of singing up for this contest and winning it, I was featured on espn the associated press and my local paper and tv station. What can I do now to practice stealthiness? Is it even possible?
how do you practice stealth wealth if everybody knows what you made? I won a contest that was featured on espn, fox sports and the associated press. It is similar to the chris moneymaker WSOP situation. Every person at my job knows now and I have to take a picture with my prize that will be featured on many websites. I know that this pub will die down but how do I practice stealth wealth from here on out.
What contest was this and how much did you win?
Perhaps take a vacation for 3 months to let things die down.
it was a las vegas supercontest. I won about 900,000 picking football games
also I get health insurance through the union at my job. What could be the options for getting insurance?
I love this article! It totally validates how I feel. I just graduated law school and got my first job in a firm so friends and family often ask me what my salary is, which I feel extremely uncomfortable revealing. That list of upsides describes exactly how I feel: I want to blend in, I want to spend my money in peace, and I never want someone’s view of me or expectations of me to change based on money (as in: “she should get the bill”). Personally, I would never ask someone that question.
Unfortunately I found this article because a friend just now asked me over text, I told her that I’m not comfortable talking about it, and she got offended. But I am prepared to accept those awkward and obnoxious moments :)
Stand strong Mary and don’t give in, no matter how much your ego wants you to tell the world!
You’ll love this article too: Are You Smart Enough To Act Dumb Enough To Get Ahead?
I find it interesting that people are defining success by comparing him/herself to others. Being successful is as simple as paying off debt and living within your means, no matter what you make.
Opposite side of the issue: What do you do when people constantly brag about what they are buying and how much they are spending? My high school friend / neighbor (joe) has a friend that comes over to get togethers when I am over for a drink or to let our kids play together. This other friend (Steve) constantly changes the topic to what he is buying now/just bought/is thinking of buying, etc. Steve has no problem saying how much he spends on things and bragging about possessions/services he gets done. We all live in a nice little older plan built in the 60s/early 70s with average home prices. A good, safe place to raise our 2 kids.
This Steve guy annoys the hell out of me since sometimes my wife and I dont have alot left over after the bills are paid. We pay 2 mortgages ( the other house we are trying to sell ), have student loans, etc.
Question is: why do people brag about what they spend and how much everything costs??