Peter and I were golfing buddies for years until one day he started asking me about my compensation. I refused to tell him for weeks until he mentioned he was in a tough situation, negotiating a package with a potential new employer and sought my advice as someone several years his senior.
As I stood over my ball, ready to attempt a 30 foot birdie putt, Peter chimes up, “Sam, you’d really be doing me a favor by letting me know, so I can go back and counter them in case they are low balling me.” Peter then proceeded to tell me what he was making at which point I felt forced to reveal my income because he was so upfront. When I did, he quieted down, walked to the next hole and smacked his driver down the pipe.
“280 yards with only a sand wedge in!” I applauded after I missed my putt. “Hmprh“, was the only sound that came out of his mouth as walked further and further away.
As weeks turned into months, I realized he no longer pinged me to play golf. It also turns out that he never took the new job offer and remains at his company ’til this day. Peter turned cold and I later found out that the reason why he never took the new job was because he countered them so high based on what he heard from me that they pulled the offer. Peter blames me for not getting the job and not making the money he feels he deserves to make. I have no control over what the potential suitor was willing to pay so why is it my fault?
NEVER REVEAL YOUR INCOME
I’ve known Peter for years, and it saddens me that we no longer hang out. He asked me to be his mentor when he first graduated from college, and his competitive drive drove him overboard. He compares everything from cars to property with everybody. As an example, he purchased a two year old Aston Martin Vanquish around his 30th birthday. All he had to do was buy a two year old Honda Civic and it would blow away what I was driving and most of our circle since we take the bus!
It was an absolute mistake revealing my income to him. I like to wear worn t-shirts and jeans, because I don’t like to draw attention. In fact, perhaps this is why I so often wear baseball caps, so I can be left alone to do my own thing. Blending in is why I drive Moose, my 11 year old SUV that’s worth $4,000. He’s handsome and clean, but will never turn heads. It’s the best feeling when people look at me and think I’m just a kid with very little.
I’m not going to apologize for making more than Peter when I was his age. I was just trying to help him out in his negotiation process as he wouldn’t relent on asking. We could have come up with a strategy for negotiation, and use my figure as a realistic anchoring point for further talks with his potential new employer. Instead, he decided to huff and puff and curse the world for life’s inequities.
THE UPSIDE OF KEEPING YOUR INCOME HIDDEN
* You can always play down your wealth.
* You can play up your wealth if circumstances dictate.
* You don’t have to feel like you always have to pay because you make more.
* You can buy things and go on vacations in peace.
* You blend in with everybody else.
* If you make more than the average, nobody will envy you or try and take you down.
THE DOWNSIDE OF REVEALING YOUR INCOME
* You start associating your identity with your income.
* You might come across as arrogant and boastful.
* You lose ground in salary negotiations if you ever change jobs.
* People will start expecting things from you i.e. “Larry makes $10,000 a month, let him get the dinner tab!”
* You might get reported to the IRS agent who might think, “Oh really now?”
* You will be judged by everything you spend and don’t spend your money on i.e. “You only donate that little to charity?” “How can you afford a $25,000 car when you only make $60,000 a year?” “You’re 45 years old and still only make that little?” “You make that much and still drive a beater?” “You’re selling the dream, and your client’s dreams are failing.” etc.
IF YOU MUST REVEAL YOUR INCOME
If for whatever reason, you just have to reveal your income to others, use this guideline to decide whether you should or not:
Reveal income if your income is equal to the median income of your peer group (industry, level, experience) up to +15% over. If you are making any more, then it’s probably best not to reveal and speak in generality. Any income below 115% of the median income of your peer group is fine.
If your business model is making money by showing others how much money you can make by making money off others, really try and reach out to those who’ve bought your products and failed. Reimburse the occasional failure and set up some type of safety net fund or charity fund to help.
PRACTICE STEALTH WEALTH
The next time someone tries to dig compensation information out of you, stand strong and don’t reveal any details! Practice Stealth Wealth! If you must share info given the other party has bared their soul, talk in percentages and temper them while you are at it. The other strategy is to provide a wide range below and above his or her salary so as to appease some of his/her desire to know, without making them feel unsatisfactory.
Look around at the most financially successful people out there. You’ll never see or read about them disclosing how much money they are pulling in. They are secure with themselves and understand the upsides of keeping their finances private.
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Start your own business/website: If you feel you’re not getting paid what you’re worth and want to boost your income, start your own business online on the side! It used to cost a fortune and a lot of employees to start your business. Now you can start it for next to nothing with a hosting company like Bluehost for under $4/month and they’ll give you a free domain for a year to boot.
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Updated for 2019 and beyond.
Question, first off, very simple , yet sometimes so simple of a rule it can be overlooked sometimes, example, I was approached by compitition and asked how much I bid a job for that he had bid prior but wasnt awarded. I proceeded to tell him that everyones overhead and markup are different and it would be of no value to tell him my bid, he then told me what he bid, then was an awkward silence, I folded for who knows what reason, maybe just to get him to go away so I could continue working on my project, I quickly figured what could it hurt? I already had the job, so I told him, I immediately regretted it as the whole conversation was awkward. What do I do now? I just pretend the conversation never happened, and remember to never tread those grounds again
A friend of mine makes 3 times my salary. His career went up at a crazy rate. In just 3 years at the save company his salary went from 2/3 of my current salary to 3 times my current salary. Over the same period my salary increased by 50%…
I feel stupid and worthless pretty often now.
I’m not hyper competitive, I don’t need to make more money than my friends, but we simply don’t have the same life anymore.
The guy saves in 1 year what I save in 5… We’re just not in the same category anymore.
He totally deserves this money, he is constantly working, he has huge pressure and stress. I don’t know if I could take on even 50% of his mental load.
The guy is also a freakin’ genius, learning new things instantly, with a crazy memory. For instance, he remembers how I was dressed at a dinner 5 years ago when I don’t even remember being there at all.
Anyways, it’s not easy to be the Peter either. It may not be something that someone else forces upon you, it’s something you do to yourself, but it’s not easy changing your own brain and mental functioning.
It’s been years, I’ve tried hard but so far it’s not really working so far. I don’t feel great when I’m with my friend anymore, I feel worthless and I don’t like that.
Long story short, don’t disclose your money (either income or savings) to friends, don’t ask them theirs (otherwise you’d may be compelled to tell yours).
Not only can it make you feel bad, but it can also make them feel bad. No one gains anything out of this and both situations could hurt your relationship.
Man, sorry to hear this. It’s so human nature to feel what you feel. At least you’re making more and you can’t do what he’s doing to make his amount. And don’t want to it seems either.
It would be way worse if he was making more and you guys were doing the same.
Related: https://www.financialsamurai.com/never-ask-to-borrow-money-from-a-friend-or-family-member/
I think the problem wasn’t that you told him your income, but the problem is with Peter himself. It looks like he’s the type that rates his self-worth and success base on other’s, so the problem is something that he needs to figure out himself.
As for the blanket statement of just not sharing your income, I do think it’s very important for people to get into the habit of sharing their income with their coworkers who hold the same position as them, especially if you’ve been holding that position for relatively the same time. That was how I was able to renegotiate my salary, to even know I should renegotiate my salary. I learned that my coworker made more than I did despite having the same job and both of us agreeing that we did the same amount of work. He then helped me renegotiate my salary, which put us on even ground. Now that kind of income sharing, I believe, is healthy for a work environment and should be normalized.
You are looking at this from only one viewpoint – that of a successful outcome.
Ask yourself this: How would you have felt about your coworker if your salary renegotiation had been UN-successful? Had that been the case, you almost certainly would have resented both him AND your employer.
Before you tear down a fence, consider first why it is there (The Parable of Chesterton’s Fence).
I don’t think revealing income is smart, in general. I can see possible exceptions within very functional, non-issue-ridden families… like revealing to siblings or parents or something. Sometimes even that isn’t a good idea. I grew up quite poor I suppose, by most peoples’ standards. Now I have a husband who earns what I consider an upper-middle class income for our household, and it’s still early in his career. We haven’t changed our lifestyle much at all because we’re saving money right now. Most people do not know that he makes more money now. (I think only his mom and my mom know.) I instinctively don’t want to tell most people, and he doesn’t either.
I admit this is mostly because a lot of the people in our circles don’t make quite as much as he does. We don’t make enough that I fear people wanting us to pay for everything. It’s more like I don’t want them to have any animosity towards us or think of us differently or be jealous. Sometimes family or friends tell me about raises they got (revealing specific amounts) or about how much they’re making with some side hustle they have. I smile and am happy for them. I am human though and sometimes it does seem like “bragging” to me, but I still hold my tongue, no matter how much that small part of me wants to let them know we have more than they do. I know nothing good would come from that.
It all just makes me begin to understand why many people who “have” don’t ever want to talk about it. I don’t necessarily even want to feel this way, but I find myself beginning to think somewhat less of people who talk so freely about specific amounts of money they’re making…
I made this mistake today. I might have lost my oldest and longest friend because they can’t get over the amount. It’s not even a high amount, but they think that they should be at the same amount and can’t believe it.
Better to say nothing I suppose.
Peter was never your friend.
Wealth is your life. The core of who you are as a person. Peter never knew even the most fundamental detail about who you are. You can’t be friends with someone you don’t truly know.
So what’s left? A shallow competitive relationship with someone who doesn’t trust him. Well, he found out he couldn’t compete and let me guess when he stopped calling you never called back and had a real conversation with him, did you? You assume what happened with him but you never cared enough to find out the reality just like you never trusted him enough to be a real mentor.
Which brings me to the next of this shockingly horrific article of yours. You call yourself his mentor but it took weeks of asking for you to share knowledge that every one posts on GlassDoor with him much less help him with his negotiation. Or reach out to him when he had a setback.
It is obvious that you are excellent with money and just as obvious that you are terrible at being a friend.
* You can always play down your wealth. / Lie -_-
* You can play up your wealth if circumstances dictate. Brag -_-
* You don’t have to feel like you always have to pay because you make more. / You don’t or is it just that you don’t want to use your money for others?
* You can buy things and go on vacations in peace. / You already could or again is it that you can buy more and go on more vacations if you don’t feel guilty. Why do you feel guilty?
* You blend in with everybody else. / You shouldn’t have started a website if you wanted to blend in.
* If you make more than the average, nobody will envy you or try and take you down. / Or respect you or ask your advice. Ohhhhh that’s why you started a website so you can hide behind the interenet and have it both ways. Hide from the people in your life who matter while getting respect and attention from strangers.
Choose better friends and maybe you wouldn’t still regret losing what sounds like a bad one. Of course, to choose better friends you would have to have an honest with relationship with them so that’s not likely.
Man, this was horrible to read… you guys are terrible and no I’m sure its not your “wealth” that makes you that way. Pat yourselves on the back for being selfish, spineless, lying little whiners.
I know its hard but hey you could actually own who you are and then maybe you would have relationships that could weather a quick salary fact check ffs…
Great comment,
Couldn’t of been more correct!!!
I was born July 20, 1965 in Madison, Wisconsin and we lived in the middle of farm country. Our family tree shows that our ancestors had a single steam trunk they brought over with them from Europe while their infant children were dying from the German-Measles. No one in my day as an American drove fancy cars, lived in large homes or went out to dinner three times a week. Call me now right now and I will tell you it’s a confirmed fact. American’s were here to fight taxation and government and religious influence. We were driven to desperation. We forget, how the human race goes on in current events, on how we all used to live. We are short-term memory humans. Do you remember yesterday’s headlines? Hardly. Well, let me get to the money discussion. My father died when I was nine, and we lived for a time on social security in the 70’s for many years along with a fertilizer warehouse he had been converting into a make-shift home. My mother never got a degree or most never did in those days. Most women like my mother got married at 18 and then had kids and then never got divorced because if they did it was a scandal. But let me tell you, there was never a lack of love, or a push for education. Everyone in my day wanted their kids to have an education and to do better than they did. For anyone in China or any foreign country reading this, American’s were not rich, but all want to to good by their children. My Mother wanted her kids to have a better life than her, and she loved us too. Flash forward, I was not poor for a brief moment in the 90’s, and people around me were supportive, nice and positive. Their were of course, some moments – where I thought – am I spending too much? Never. I remembered those days when I was poor. I was frugal. But during the 2000’s my ex-husband fell into the ego trap of big spending means you are successful. Right before the 2008 crash, my ex bought into the real estate game, thinking money can never run out. But this is this is the biggest rule I want everyone to remember – the poorest man can become the richest and the richest man can become the poorest. Just like me, money came in quickly but it quickly ran out. Very very quickly. Now I am wiser and smarter about money, have good credit and I never judge anyone, no matter how poor or rich they are. I see how people are, arrogant, driven, jealous, mean, or have a heart made of stone toward anyone who has success. If that person was sexually abused, faced bankruptcy, was meth-addicted or was dying of cancer, would that lessen your envy? What would it take for anyone to remember that the human spirit is about how to be free, not because we need money to do it, we just need enough to know about how to do it equally. Or how about, could it just be because we are losing sight of a bigger picture? ARE we being overtaxed? Is the private industry dying one day at a time for the public sector? Just remember, in the long run you can’t take it with you. Not the money, not the house, not the belongings. If you want money,…..you have to work for it. NO ONE IS JUST GOING TO GIVE IT TO YOU BECAUSE YOU GOT YOUR HAND OUT TO IT. No one is rich if they are young. No one has it easy. No one. All current office jobs are still factory jobs without windows for the most part. I bet there are a few people out there who won’t dirty themselves doing menial work. I would. Every step of the way if that was what I wanted to do to make a better life for myself and my children. Be humble. Be gracious. Be smart and intelligent and invent a better life for yourself and your children. I don’t want to hear anymore bullshit about golf-courses and Italian cars. Live below your means. Buy a used car, get a decent education and don’t get greedy. Take all the money you save and take a great vacation and set-up a decent IRA. If someone says, what are you doing with your money? Tell them, it isn’t for yourself – it’s for your children or to a better cause. That will stop the conversation. Because selflessness isn’t something people are accustomed too. Don’t disclose your income. Tell them how much you spent on your college education and the jobs they should take to get them on a career path so they can make as much as you do. (After working on the path for a long long time.)
IT’S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS what you make. Want they may need is good financial planning and some sound financial advice. Give them advice! By all means.
LOL, i can help but think that you are Peter in disguise. Only he (you) would agree with Peter nosing in on Financial Samurai’s finances. Someone asking you how much money you make is a double edged sword. If you refuse to tell them, they get bitter. Why is he obligated to disclose this to Peter just because they’re golfing buddies? You’re right. They’re NOT good friends. Only buddies that occasionally golf. And undoubtedly Samurai did inquire about Crybaby Pete, otherwise he wouldn’t have known Peter was sore about the information he finally tricked Samurai out of. Which, by the way, Samurai never agreed to be his mentor. That was only a request from Peter. Now, back to Samurai’s sword (no pun intended! although it would be a clever one!). The other edge is that when you DO disclose this, the Peters of the world get jealous and bitter and/or do something dumb, like highball their employer for more money only to get rejected. And all the blame is put on the Samurais. It’s a trap. That’s all it is. Complete privacy is always the best answer. Unless he’s like your very BEST friend in the world. Then, maybe.
I came to the article’s same conclusion on my own over time unfortunately. I think the hardest thing was becoming successful and financially solvent while my friends did not and seeing how well I was doing made them resentful relative to their own successes. So much so that it strained and in some cases ended our friendships.
A decade ago a group of friends decided to make it big in LA. We all came to Los Angeles together to ‘find ourselves’. I was a big fan of movies and always liked movie vfx so I put in a lot of sweat and tears into that sort of gig. After a couple of years it panned out better than expected. I work with lots of people that I would say are very successful and are also very low key and I like that people could be that way without ‘needing’ to show that they are successful. That is something I admire very much.
Some of my friends just wanted that Hollywood lifestyle which is really easy to fall into and with the other aspiring XY or Z entertainer types doing the same sort of nothing it can go on forever or until the money runs out. Another friend and I were the more successful of the bunch (2 of us out of 7 friends actually) and we noticed that we would cover expenses more and more on outings. At first I felt I was just offering support as they found their own success but after a while it seemed like they just weren’t trying. People were getting resentful on both sides; I felt like I was being used and they felt bad about themselves since they weren’t making it. Things came to a head when we’d go out and I’d meet strangers that my friends knew but I didn’t; but I was the cool guy covering the tab. I just felt stupid. My other successful friend felt the same way. After a short while of needing favors and only being called when they wanted to go out to places they couldn’t afford we said to hell with them. And that ended a toxic relationship with childhood friends.
That was probably 5 years ago now and since then I keep my mouth shut about finances or my financial well being. I’d like to be treated like any person you’d meet at a coffee shop or bar or so on. I can say though that it was a situation that my friends saw me grow into over time, but seeing how those events panned out I wouldn’t want a repeat of it.
Another reason not to share is if you are separated / divorced. I don’t see any good coming out of your ex knowing your financial details. lol
I choose not to discuss my income or net worth with anyone in my personal circle. Just too much potential downside.
I am open, though, to sharing anonymously online. And I do like learning from others’ situations / successes / mistakes anonymously online as well.
As a female professional, I am sensitive to pay equity. So I would support whatever’s needed to ensure fair compensation practices. I once was accidentally sent pay information for hundreds of employees in the company where I currently work. You can bet that I checked for gender discrepancies (thankfully seemed to find none). I work in a large corporation with structured pay bands per job level, so that helps. My last employer was a smaller, with all male co-founders and a mostly male senior leadership team. My guess is there *were* probably pay equity issues there, but I’ll never know for sure.
These comments are cancer…
You are GOING to get divorced if you can’t even share that much trust with someone you are marrying and you will deserve it…
Of course, you are too dim to realize that your full financial state is disclosed by law during a divorce. Not surprising for someone who believes in the wage gap. News flash men work different jobs and different hours… OH, why do I bother be ignorant it will help anyone not insane from ever making the mistake of marrying you Haha
Would it be a good idea to let legal guardian know net worth so they can take care of children in case of death?
(We have substantially more net worth than they do)
Opposite side of the issue: What do you do when people constantly brag about what they are buying and how much they are spending? My high school friend / neighbor (joe) has a friend that comes over to get togethers when I am over for a drink or to let our kids play together. This other friend (Steve) constantly changes the topic to what he is buying now/just bought/is thinking of buying, etc. Steve has no problem saying how much he spends on things and bragging about possessions/services he gets done. We all live in a nice little older plan built in the 60s/early 70s with average home prices. A good, safe place to raise our 2 kids.
This Steve guy annoys the hell out of me since sometimes my wife and I dont have alot left over after the bills are paid. We pay 2 mortgages ( the other house we are trying to sell ), have student loans, etc.
Question is: why do people brag about what they spend and how much everything costs??
I recall one of the first times I ever saw my Dad loose his cool in front of family in when his brother-in-law had the nerve to ask him his salary. My Dad looked him straight in the eye, “that’s really none of your damn business, Bob…. unless you tell me yours first,” of course the topic of convo changed….. My parents always taught me the most sure-fire way to offend anyone is to ask them how much they make; they stressed do not do it, unless that’s the reaction you want. Most people will talk politics and religion before divulging that info.
I’m sure this cat bugs his co-workers with the one-upmanship games as well and he’s likely hated all through the office hallways. I’ve known several family members like this, they get a kick out of attempting to degrade you with their, “Im better than you,” schtick, but my mom was always good at say, “boy, that sure sounds like a waste of good money, you sure about that?” and the topic of convo was quickly changed.
I find it interesting that people are defining success by comparing him/herself to others. Being successful is as simple as paying off debt and living within your means, no matter what you make.
I love this article! It totally validates how I feel. I just graduated law school and got my first job in a firm so friends and family often ask me what my salary is, which I feel extremely uncomfortable revealing. That list of upsides describes exactly how I feel: I want to blend in, I want to spend my money in peace, and I never want someone’s view of me or expectations of me to change based on money (as in: “she should get the bill”). Personally, I would never ask someone that question.
Unfortunately I found this article because a friend just now asked me over text, I told her that I’m not comfortable talking about it, and she got offended. But I am prepared to accept those awkward and obnoxious moments :)
Stand strong Mary and don’t give in, no matter how much your ego wants you to tell the world!
You’ll love this article too: Are You Smart Enough To Act Dumb Enough To Get Ahead?
how do you practice stealth wealth if everybody knows what you made? I won a contest that was featured on espn, fox sports and the associated press. It is similar to the chris moneymaker WSOP situation. Every person at my job knows now and I have to take a picture with my prize that will be featured on many websites. I know that this pub will die down but how do I practice stealth wealth from here on out.
What contest was this and how much did you win?
Perhaps take a vacation for 3 months to let things die down.
it was a las vegas supercontest. I won about 900,000 picking football games
also I get health insurance through the union at my job. What could be the options for getting insurance?
okay Ive had a big six figure event that has happened in my life. Unfortunately I cant be stealth with it because as part of singing up for this contest and winning it, I was featured on espn the associated press and my local paper and tv station. What can I do now to practice stealthiness? Is it even possible?
Dear Financial Samurai,
How the Hell can you write a post and tell everyone not to reveal how much money they earn; but you do just that at the end of your post!? I’m all for money & financial freedom, I assume from your results you worked consistently to achieve I admire that! In addition to encouraging readers to start their own website or business. But what you posted is not consistent with WHAT you posted if you know what I mean. Not sure if you wanted reactions and pissed peeps or what?
Brian, thanks for your comment. The graph below is an EXAMPLE of an income statement from a person who started his own website to be his own boss and break free. I’ve gone ahead and bolded “example” to clarify. The graph is used to show the possibilities.
Related:
Why Everybody Should Start Their Own Website
Abolish Welfare Mentality: A Janitor Maes $271,000, Why Can’t You Too?
You’re right. Never tell. People who ask this question always have selfish intentions. These people deserve a lie. I think it’s better to question their question. For example, you could be sarcastic: “Oh, do you have some money for me?”
Take my case for example. I work as a bus driver. All the companies are different unions. At some of our stops, there’s other bus companies. Occasionally, you get these other drivers who think we’re all part of some brotherhood coming up and asking how much you make. It’s like, well, if i make less than you, are you going to fight for me? NO!
I recently told another bus driver from another company we don’t discuss salary. He got very, very, very butt hurt. But who cares. He’s only looking out for himself, there is no brotherhood, he would never fight for me, we’re competing companies. Get lost. Worst case scenario, you tell enough of these people how much you make, and a strike could happen.
I go to work so I can work. That’s all.
I like the attitude Jim! You’ll especially love this post: The Rise Of Stealth Wealth: Avoiding Society’s Rage
This post is also pretty good: Abolish Welfare Mentality: A Janitor Makes $271,000, Why Can’t You Too?
I also think keeping your income private is a good idea.
Well that is certainly the Very Truth.
Hey man,
I am totally against revealing your income for several reasons but there have to be better positives than the ones you’ve listed.
For example this one:
“You can play up your wealth if circumstances dictate.”
Why not just be honest and tell the truth. It’ll save you a lot of headaches (that come with lying) in future.
Anyhow, that’s just my 2 cents.
What would some of the headaches and consequences be for playing up? I still would never reveal my full income.
* Having to remember your lie.
* Not being able to afford something that you said you could.
Idk man, I can see this playing up business eventually leading to a breach of trust.
Yeah, I agree and wouldn’t reveal my income under any circumstances but I don’t see a valid reason to talk it up either.
The problem was not that you told him how much money you make. The problem is that your friend was a jealous scrub. I have no problem telling my friends how much I made or don’t make and they have no problem telling me how well business is going for them. If a friend of mine is doing better than me, I congratulate him and learn whatever I can from him to see if I can use it to do better for myself. It works both ways. Only idiots and bums get bitter when they find out their friends make more than them. Smart people will observe and find out what they need to do to better their own situation.
You didn’t lose anything. Now you have one less scrub in your life. Go make some winner friends :)
You know what? You’re exactly right. A true friend would be happy that I provided the information he wanted, and be happy that I made what I made. Don’t waste time with people Who don’t add value to your life!
Joel…you make everything feel right and positive. Most people don’t get it like you do. And I wish I had more friends that had the same point of view as you do. People can rave about how hard and unfair it is that they have no money. But when you talk about money and you have money it can be a sticky subject.
Unfortunately, when applied to family it’s seems a little more difficult than said. :|
I agree with you Joel. A friend should be happy for your success. I had a friend early in my career who shared with me how much she made and benefits. This helped me know that I had a low ball offer and take a pass on a job.
SO I am a stay at home mom since my first kid was born, that’s seven years ago. My husband started his business 5 years ago. Every year we’ve made significantly more. First, 250k…second, 380k…third 500k goes on and on(we are in the Bay Area). When we had our first kid I was on Medi CAL(7 years ago). When money first started rolling in the first year, it was exciting more for him than me. I came from a normal mid-class income family. My husband came from poor…dirty 2 bed apartment living and single mother raising 7 kids. (I had 7 in my family too :) I’ve seen what money can do to a good person(if allowed) and how people treat people that have money. You can’t have one without the other. Unless you are really good at hiding things. LOL. The first 3 years were exciting, fun and new(shine new things my husband bought). Year 3 and 4 you realize people asking for money and expecting you to pay for everything and just want to hang out with you for no particular reason. Year 4 and 5…you start noticing the haters in at least one corner of the room. I call them that bc that’s what they are….sick people. i now have a much small circle of people around me today and realize those few that are really there for ME and don’t talk about money. And now I recognize the others that really could care less about US. They are just THERE(can’t get rid of them so I can only ignore and put up with them bc they are family) I am tired of the whole rich thing poor thing talk between people. When the subject comes up I shut my mouth and watch what I say. Then again when I am around the rich people in our neighbor they are just as worst if not worst. The rich people act like they are better than you! I can’t find anyone to get this…so only a few would understand what I’m talking about. It’s a game to (some) the ones that are making a lot of $. Who has nicest car, biggest house, vacation homes. I’m so sick of both sides. I’m not sure where I fit and not sure if I really should give a damn anymore. Being here is isolating, bc people just don’t get it. *No offense guys…this has been my point of view for the longest time. I am super duper grateful to be blessed like this. But people’s got to mind there own businesses and be humble.
I like this article.I think it is always best not to reveal how much money you make or if you get a bonus or any extra money to anyone.If you must share with someone,go online and share anonymously.I recently had to learn that the hard way,when I was supposed to get some financial help from someone and I told a couple of friends about it and how I was glad that I was going to get that financial help.Well anyway about a week later,the individual who I was supposed to get financial help from,said that they can no longer help me,and did not give me a good reason why.I know that I’ll never know if that had anything to do with my friends saying something to them.However,one of my friends seem to think that I am ok financially where I am and that I don’t need any help financially from anyone.But,they don’t know about the extra expenses that I have had or debt since the last time I talked to them about my finances and I really did need that help.So from now on,I’m not going to talk to friends about how much I make,any extra money I get or how I pay for anything.If just going to avoid those questions or say I got a second job to pay for this or that and not say exactly how much I make.
i can see how revealing would cause envy. you saying $36 is taking a pay cut made me sad to read because at 40yrs old and as a female I will be lucky to make $22 at my new job :(
I think it is wise not to reveal how wealthy you are to strangers. You would welcome unwanted dishonest friends who can be best avoided. However, I do not find any harm in revealing how much you make, to friends. If your friend envies you or hates you for this, then that friend is not worth having, in my opinion. It is always good to make friends who share common interest than make friends in the same wealth bracket we are in.
However, revealing a salary to co-workers is a completely different issue. Companies and corporations want you to believe that it is in your best interest to not reveal your salaries. This scenario is only in the best interest of the corporations. By sharing salary number with your peers you make sure that on an average you are not being underpaid and overworked. It doesn’t make sense to share the same with people working under you.
It’s better not to tell anyone what you make, not only to protect yourself from people who would lust after your property and be jealous of you, but also to protect yourself from shame/embarrassment if your income level decreases. It’s your nebulous income, that uncertainty that gives you an edge.
People will always pick up on little clues about your income level just by you living your life, no matter how humble you choose to live it. But if you don’t put a number on it, you have power.
“It’s better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt,” Mark Twain. You can change that to say it’s better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are rich (or average) than to open it and remove all doubt. Even if you’re rich, you would lose power. In a game of poker who has the power? It’s the one who reveals nothing in their face no matter what cards they hold.
Love the poker analogy! Well explained. Thanks.
I 100% AGREE with everyone who said that wasn’t your friend! I strongly dislike such types of people and would be rejoiced to rid them out of my life.
The ONLY time I like competition is when playing games. When it comes to money, materialistic things, relationships, etc. I HATE competition. I get extra motivation by others success; I LOVE to see people I know come up…!!!
Its better not to reveal because you never know who will knock on your door in the middle of the night with knife in his hand..
You will enjoy these posts about Stealth Wealth! Join the movement!
https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-rise-of-stealth-wealth-guide-to-staying-invisible-from-society-rage/
https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-stealth-wealth-compendium-useful-phrases-to-help-deflect-success/
You should never tell… I have friends always using different tactics to try to gather information about how much I make, how much rent I pay, etc.
I always avoid the answer, sometimes in a very obvious way. Why do people need to know? There really is nothing useful they can do with that information.
I grew poor, I had a baby when I was 18 in highschool. People told me I would fail. At 19 I got a job at a company making over 100,000 a year gross. That same year I bought rental property. I have continued to expand, and make money off different things. Because I never went to college, when people ask how much money I make at 25 I told them. We don’t flaunt. People think the opposite, I love to prove them wrong. I sure wish I would have seen this advice at some other point in life. DO NOT TELL. I have issues with family and friends over money, I am an Entreprenur spirt. I talk about money constantly. Big mistake.
update Now I am in college. I filled a 13 to keep my estate because I lost my career. Still doing very well, but don’t know how to tell people it is not 100,000. Take this mans advice don’t tell…it should’nt matter. Its all ready said enough for however your living. You should’nt go out of your way to hide it, but don’t tell. Family should not know either.
I’m realizing that it gets really bad when your friends with more education find out that you make more money than them. They’ve all gone on to get graduates degrees and it really has not seemed to have paid off: now they’re over $50,000 in debt and still looking for a job. They make a lot of passive aggressive comments to me about it as they apparently think I should be making less than them. I’m not going to apologize for it though, I made the most with the opportunities that were given to me and it has paid off.
Thanks for the article Sam. I feel like I made a mistake, I told my best friend that I make a six-figure salary. However I’m about to be laid off soon / my contract will ramp down. She used to work until she decided to go back to school, where her international student fees are pretty high. While trying to take a decision and explaining to her my situation, about wether to jump ship first and follow my dreams or wait it out, I blurted out that I make a six-figure salary. She sounded a little surprised but took it in stride and we discussed the dilemma. She knows I won’t be making this kind of money in the future with the dream job that I will be pursuing after this contract is over.
Is it terribly wrong for me to have done that? Now that she’s back to being a student, I felt really bad about blurting that piece of information out (not that she thinks I was making less than 50K, but still). She keeps things in confidence and I trust her, I just feel bad about how I said it.
I found this article by searching for “Why can’t I seem to make what my friends and family can?”.
While I don’t want this to come off sounding like a sob story, I felt like I had to say something here after reading so many of the comments about how “Peter is an idiot” and how “Peter wasn’t a real friend”.
I have nothing against success, but it’s a hard fact of life that relating to those with more success is extremely difficult, especially when you met as peers. I’ve lost many friends growing up simply because our interests grew apart. For example, I had a friend long ago who dropped out of high-school and immediately started making 100k a year. After about a year, we just couldn’t talk to each other anymore. Our lives became drastically different as well as the people we associated with. I was a poor engineering student while he was a well off 17 year old entrepreneur.
I agree that you didn’t do anything wrong and that Peter was indeed the one with the problems, but I really think your readers should give Peter a break. People here are describing Peter as some sort of terrible friend because he let “jealousy” overcome him. Well I’m sorry, but jealousy only begins to describe the feeling Peter probably felt. Peter probably felt INADEQUATE learning that his friend (the financial samurai) was making significantly more after the same experience. This feeling of inadequacy compounds on itself, and salary plays a huge role.
Sure, you may see it as shallow, but I’m sure it was very emotionally taxing of Peter realizing that after all this time, his work wasn’t paying off the same as his peers. This train of thought quickly leads a person to feeling inadequate, which nobody likes to feel. It even causes some to give up completely if it goes on for too many years.
Often times someone puts in way more effort/sacrifice to get where he is in life, I understand this, but sometimes it just doesn’t feel this way. For example, if you had a friend from high-school who started as your peer, but 10 years down the line, you realize that he gets paid over twice your salary, you’re going to start second guessing your entire existence. This can result in people giving up their career entirely as they see no correlation between the effort they put in and their salaries. It becomes more clear that some people just “have what it takes” while others don’t, and it sucks when your slowly realize your social circle has what it takes while you don’t.
I just wanted to add my 2 cents as a lot of successful people do indeed some to lose touch with basic human emotion and empathy.
In the case of a regular job, it certainly can feel hopeless if your peer is significantly out-doing you. But in a lot of cases, the peers dont have jobs at all and are involved in various entrepreneurial endeavors.
So its not necessarily that they’re that much smarter or harder working than you by many orders of magnitude.
Its just that their strategy has implicit control, leverage, and higher profit margins (depending on which market), and your strategy sucks in comparison. There are many profitable business opportunities that require low startup costs. It comes down to your willingness to learn, experiment, grind, and do something outside the box.
You dont have to re-create Microsoft.
People have made millions selling bug spray and paint remover. Virtually any product or service that is of superior quality and/or a good bargain with a pre-existing demand can get you well off, if not rich.
The hardest part is probably defying conventions and prejudice from normal people.
Insightful comments, Ben. What I find most frustrating is when you know, for certain, you have more talent than a more financially successful peer, yet sometimes, by just by the sheer quirk of fate, they are raking in the dough while you are not. Sometimes, regardless of the excellence of the strategy employed, one’s efforts still don’t pay off. It is a great struggle to not allow bitterness to set in, to keep one’s chin up, and strive to try again, to improve… and sometimes again and again.
I did very much appreciate the observations on moderate living in the article. I quite happily drive a 13 year old Dodge pickup. Dandy rig, and looks nice, runs beautifully, has plenty of horsepower to meet my needs and my payments are super low. I’m thrilled to get up every day and try hard, and am so grateful for all that I have. The tendency Peter had of thinking that “stuff” is going to make him happy, or that resplendent possessions are the gauge one’s worth is a trap that so many people fall in to. It’s a trick that can choke the life out of the soul.
Definitely can make one question the point of it all if have not obtained some “must have” goal of great wealth.
This is so true. But I learnt that life itself is like that. It is unpredictable and unjust. However, when someone has more than you do, even though you work hard, study hard, or dedicate yourself to your goals more, you just need to realize that’s not the whole picture. There is also someone out there who was born, just like you, working just as hard if not more but not having enough to even buy food to eat (especially all those, living in third world countries). Do you know that some Chinese workers work for 20+ hours a day with no breaks just to get enough money to buy food and clothes and nothing more, so that we can have cheap technology and clothes here that are MADE IN CHINA and have what we have now working for much less hours?
And when you grow old enough, you’ll realize that it is like that not only with money, but with everything in life. Did you notice that one person gives so much attention to their spouse, so much affection and care and money and devotion, and yet their spouse cheats on them. And then you see another couple, where one spouse does absolutely nothing for their relationship yet is being treated like a king/queen and nobody cheats on them. Why is it like that?
The most unjust situations you see is when one person never smokes, always exercises and eating healthy all their lives only to end up with a fatal incurable disease at the age of 35 and end up dying at 36; while someone else who is smoking and is overweight ends up living with no any kind of sickness until 80 and dies in their sleep with a smile at 82…….Why is that?
Trust me, “why” is an unanswerable question that needs to be forgotten. When I saw with my own eyes a talented and extremely emotionally mature 13 year old girl, who got brain cancer and had only less than one year to live, while staying in one-room apartment with her poor single mother, I felt how unjust the world was. But the dying girl was so smart. She did youtube videos, encouraging others to love life and to love present moment. In her last year of life, she started doing her hobby – photography – through pain and chemotherapy side effects. In spite of losing strength and in spite of losing her life, she did what she loved, and she found various people to be her photo shooting models and made a beautiful gallery of her pictures of those different people before she died at the age of 13. In her video message she said: “Find strength in yourself to not seek injustice. Life is not worth being wasted on this. Find what you love and do what you love while you have time. And that will be your true happiness.” She was only 13 years of age and she was that wise! She died so happy and brought tears to all her fans. She had no money, no rich house, no father, not even a chance to grow up. Yet, dying so early and so unfairly, she was happier than most of us . When you see those kinds of people in your life, you realize jealousy is more of an illusion. You see reality only half way. You close your eyes on all those people who are much worse than you, although they didn’t work any less nor deserve any less in life and you pay attention only to those who ahve more stuff for less effort.
Don’t look only at those who have more than you. Remember, if you live in the US, even if you are poor, you are automatically at the top 1% of the rich people in the world. If you consider all those orphans, and unjustly sick people, who, having less than you, ARE STILL HAPPIER than you – you get amazed how beautiful life can be if you only stop comparing yourself to those who always have more.
Accept the reality that there is ALWAYS someone who has more of something else no matter how rich or successful you are. Also, understand that you never know the whole picture. Someone might have more money much easier than you, but do you know how long their life is? May be you are the one to live to 100 years of age and not him – your friend-millionaire? May be you are the one who will survive an airplane crash but not your rich friend? May be you are the one who’ll be happy single, but your rich friend will be miserable and single? May be you are the one who’ll have true friends all your life (who love you for you and not for money), but the rich peer will have fake friends who are there for him only for money? May be you don’t know that you rich friend was abused as a child by his father but you had a nice childhood in comparison? Jealousy never sees the whole picture. It only imagines how one specific thing is unjust. But life is not just one little specific thing. Life is multidimensional.
In summary, when you are jealous, remind yourself that it is just an emotion that is not in line with reality. In reality, there are probably more people who have things worse than you and some of them are actually happy anyway. If you want to compare, compare yourself to those who unjustly have so much less than you and yet they are the happiest people in the world. Then you’ll be inspired by them to be happy not because of luck but in spite of its absence.