Everything is relative when it comes to money. If we all earn $1 million dollars a year and have $5 million in the bank at the age of 40, none of us are very wealthy given all our living costs (housing, food, transportation, vacations) will be priced at levels that squeeze us to the very end.
As such, we must first get an idea of what the real average net worth is in our respective countries, and then figure out the average net worth of the above average person!
According to the Federal Reserve’s Triennial Consumer Finance Survey, the average net worth for the following ages are:
Under 35: $76,200
35-44: $288,700
45-54: $727,500
55-64: $1,167,400
65-74: $1,066,000
75+: $1,067,000
Not bad. But these numbers are skewed by the super rich who have generated an enormous amount of wealth since the financial crisis.
Although the average net worth for all Americans is $692,100, the median net worth is a more pedestrian $97,300.
Let’s look at the average net worth for above average people.
The Above Average Person is loosely defined as:
1) Someone who went to college and believes grades and a good work ethic do matter.
2) Does not irrationally spend more than they make.
3) Saves for the future because they realize at some point they no longer are willing or able to work.
4) Takes responsibility for their own actions when things go wrong and learns from the situation to make things better.
5) Takes action by leveraging free tools on the internet to track their net worth, minimize investment fees, manage their budget, and stay on top of their finances in general. Once you know where all your money is, it becomes much easier to optimize your wealth and make it grow.
6) Welcomes constructive criticism and is not overly sensitive from friends, loved ones, and strangers in order to keep improving. Keeping an open mind is critical.
7) Has a healthy amount of self-esteem to be able to lead change and believe in themselves.
8) Enjoys empowering themselves through learning, whether it be through books, personal finance blogs, magazines, seminars, continuing education and so forth.
9) Has little-to-no student loan debt due to scholarships, part-time work, or help from their parents. Our parents have saved and invested through the largest bull market in history. It’s understandable that parents want to help their children out.
Now that we have a rough definition of what “above average” means, we can take a look at the tables I’ve constructed based on the tens of thousands of past comments by you and posts I’ve written to highlight the average net worth of the above average person.
The Above Average Net Worth Deconstructed
First, we must highlight what the average tax-deferred retirement savings plan is for those in America. We’ll focus on the simple 401K system we have here where one can contribute $18,000 a year, even though the maximum contribution amount is now $19,000 a year in 2019.
This chart can be used as a rough estimate for those with the RRSP plan in Canada and retirement plans in Europe and Australia as well.
In fact, any country that has any sort of tax-deferred retirement plan and social safety net program for retirement that has a GDP/capita of $30,000 or more can use the below chart as an aspirational guide.
Remember, we are talking about the “above average person.”
Financial Samurai 401(k) Savings Guide
The assumption here is that the above average person is able to start maxing out their tax-deferred retirement plan every year after the second full year of work, and continue on without fail until 65.
The low and high end account for a conservative 0% return to a more historical 7% – 9% constant rate of return. Of course you can lose money if you are unlucky and make much more if you are good and lucky.
Given the 401k maximum contribution limits have increased over time, the three columns from left to right can also be used as guidance for older savers over 45 years old, middle aged savers between 30 – 45, and younger savers under 30 who get to max out at $19,000 a year at the minimum for the majority of their careers.
For example, when I started contributing to my 401k in 1999, the maximum contribution limit was only $10,000. If you are a 40 year old, it’s best to focus on the Mid End column as a guidance rather than the other two.
This chart does not take into consideration any after-tax savings post 401K contributions, but the high end does include 401k company contributions, as this is common for those with seniority and those who work at profitable, generous companies.
For example, for the last five years, my company paid out more than $20,000 a year in profit sharing.
Financial Samurai Post-Tax Savings Guide
The above chart assumes on the low end that one saves about $5,000 a year in after-tax income and around $10,000-$15,000 a year in after-tax income on the high-end after maxing out their tax-deferred retirement vehicle.
I’ve tried to keep things as simple as possible, assuming no inflation and no investment returns. I also believe saving $5,000-$15,000 a year in after-tax income is very realistic for the above average person, and probably very easy for many who earn more than $85,000 per person.
Finally, the chart should show you the power of consistency. Every person who wants to be above average financially should target a 20% savings rate after maxing out their 401(k) contribution.
The Importance Of Real Estate
The Federal Reserve study showed that the average net worth of a homeowner is roughly $1,034,000 or 11X greater than the average renter’s net worth of $91,000.
We can debate the merits of this study all day long (demographic sampling, housing price changes, etc), but the point is: “above average” people generally all own homes and are wealthier.
The return on rent is always negative 100%. You get a place to live and that’s that. There is never a positive return on an asset after a month, or 30 years of renting. A renter cannot pass on her paid off house to her kids or grandchildren. There is no asset accumulation at all. There is a reason why some 97% of millionaires are property owners.
The value of real estate varies across all the land and the world. It is very hard to make an assumption of what should be inputted as a result. According to the US Census bureau, the median home price in America is roughly $265,000 as of 2019.
You can’t get anything livable in San Francisco, New York City, Los Angeles, Washington DC and Boston for $265,000. But, you sure can in the Midwest where I’m aggressively investing money through real estate crowdfunding with Fundrise.
Valuations are so much cheaper and the net rental yields are so much higher in non-coastal cities compared to the coastal cities. With companies like Google investing $13 billion in heartland real estate to expand operations, you know other companies and investors will follow.
I personally sold a San Francisco rental property for 30X annual gross rent and a 2.5% cap rate in 2017 and reinvested $550,000 of the proceeds in real estate crowdfunding with a target 10% cap rate. It feels good to diversify into no-coastal city real estate and earn income passively.
Financial Samurai Home Equity Guide
Let’s now construct an equity value chart of something based on a range of $250,000-$500,000 with the assumption that upon retirement, you have your house paid off and can attribute this amount into your net worth.
I assume that the above average person buys a $250,000-$500,000 piece of property at 27. By the time they turn 28, they will have owned the property for 1 year and have paid down $3,500-$7,500 in principal on a $250,000-$400,000 loan.
I conservatively assume a $250,000 no money down loan for the low end house, even though after 5 years of working, the low-end above average person should have around $25,000-$30,000 saved up in cash based on the after-tax savings charts above.
By the time a 27 year old pays off his or her mortgage in 30 years, s/he will be 57 years old with a place to live rent from for the rest of his/her life. That is the true value of the property, the rent saved for the remainder of the owner’s life.
I assume zero price appreciation on the home to keep things conservative and no extra payments to accelerate the payoff either.
Home prices have historically returned just a bit above inflation every year e.g. 2-3%. But given the above average person puts down about 20%, the 2-3% returns suddenly turns into a 10%-15% cash-on-cash per year.
10-15% compares favorably to the average S&P 500 return of roughly 5.6% from 1999-2018 and 8% – 10% since 1926.
Add on the tax benefits for mortgage interest deduction and owning a home through a mortgage becomes very beneficial for higher income earners.
The Average Net Worth For The Above Average Person
I have gone ahead and averaged the averages for pre-tax savings, post-tax savings, and real estate equity progress in the spreadsheet below.
The pre- and post-tax savings can be invested however you see fit. Thanks to the the Federal Reserve consistently raising interest rates since the end of 2015, we can now earn 2.45% in our money market accounts through a bank like CIT Bank. Not bad compared to just 0.1% right after the financial crisis.
Another thing to note is taxation, given pre-tax savings have to eventually be withdrawn and taxed. Again, these are rough estimates to give you a general idea of the average net worth of the above average person.
There you have it! The average net worth for the above average person by age is as follows:
$250,000 by 30
$429,000 by 35
$660,000 by 40
$914,000 by 45
$1,240,250 by 50
$1,684,000 by 55
$2,180,250 by 60
Somewhere by one’s late 40s, the above average person becomes a millionaire. In comparison, the average American only becomes a millionaire between 55-64, or a full 10-15 years later according to the Federal Reserve.
The key is to stay disciplined with your savings and investing routine. With a proper asset or net worth allocation, you’ll be amazed at how far your net worth will grow over time.
The best way to build wealth is to get a handle on your finances by signing up with Personal Capital. They are a free online platform which aggregates all your financial accounts on their Dashboard so you can see where you can optimize.
They’ve also come out with their incredible Retirement Planning Calculator that uses your linked accounts to run a Monte Carlo simulation to figure out your financial future.
There’s no rewind button in life. It’s better to end up with a little too much than a little too little.
Very useful.
If you spend your time comparing yourself to the average, many people will be quite content with where they are at.
If you spend your time comparing yourself to where you *could* be (if you put in the effort), then not only are you not competing with others, but you have raised the bar drastically.
Good rough estimates but room for improvement
1. Real estate equity should factor in selling costs as they are substantial @ 5-7%
2. While 30’s are often your peak income growth period, it is generally not viewed as an accumulation post-tax period due to Child care & family costs. Most savings occurs in the 40’s and not your 30s. 30-35 having a savings of 50k while 40-45 only 25k should likely be reversed.
3. Also, is post-tax accounting for market appreciation? anything over a buffer of (10-20k) should be invested and appreciate.
4. There are issues in your rate of change for your retirement. Since retirement is capped the high end earner shouldn’t be receiving a higher percentage than mid or low.. for example, age 40-45. Low increases +50%, mid +45% and high +67% –> High should be much less –> by 40’s everyone should be maxing out, this would imply that the tier’s have a different rate of return
DQYDJ also has a good calculator to see where people stand up to others nationally.
Can you please clarify in your net worth calculation if you are including real estate owned? I assume you are. So in order to calculate the true net worth you would take how much the property is worth and subtract what you owe on the property? For example I own a property worth $370,000 but owe $136,000. So that is $234,000 I can use towards my net worth. Thank you.
Your calculation is correct on using real estate equity as part of your net worth. Probably best to be conservative as well with the equity calculation.
The average net worth was for a household.
In the modification to above average it refers to a “person”.
Do you mean for this to refer to a household as well? Or do you believe a married couple should have double the amount you calculated?
Person. But if the person has a partner, that’s fine too.
Check out: The Average Net Worth For The Above Average Couple
I am 64 years old and retired. I have a pension that pays me, after taxes, currently $3155 a month, and a monthly social security payment that pays me, after taxes, approximately $1600 a
month. If I lived to 85, which I believe I will (if not longer, with my family history and health habits), I believe my pension is worth at least $795,060, and my social security is worth at least $403,200. Should these be counted as part of my net worth? Seems like they should be…
First of all, congrats on retirement – I’m jealous. In regards to net worth, it’s normally calculated as a current snapshot in time and does not include future potential income or benefits. For example, if you applied for a business loan or a commercial property loan, “net worth” is captured as current assets minus current liabilities – they would not allow you to include those future sources of income. So by definition, no. But from your perspective, as long as you are alive and kicking, that’s your minimum net worth over your life span assuming you make it to 85 – if you save some of that income and invest it annually until you pass away your net worth could be considerably more! My 2 cents…..
Thank you for your input, Jeff. As you pointed out, I am kind of looking at it from the perspective of “how much of an investment/nest egg would I have to have currently to give me that kind of monthly income for 21 years? So, for me, it’s sort of a part of my “net worth,” Although I know that, technically, it’s doesn’t meet the classic definition of net worth. I am very lucky to have what I mentioned be a significant part of my retirement income/assets.
Michael, one way to capture the solid (hopefully) SS payments is to spreadsheet out to age 85 (probably age 92 would be best for you), assume a 1% increase annually, and then do a Present Value. Add this to your current net worth. I know this is not in the classical way of figuring NW but it would give you a good marker.
I just saw this. I disagree with the replies above. I would say yes, The present value of the payments you are receiving should definitely be considered as a part of your net worth. I just use my safe withdrawal percentage and use that to come up with a value. The entire point of figuring out net worth is to determine how much you can safely withdraw without running out of money. So if you use the traditional 4% withdrawal rate, 946,500 dollars. 3,155 / .04. Would be the amount your pensions are worth. Your calculations give it a 4.8% withdrawal rate which is fine. I would do the same with social security as you have done. When you have streams of income, it allows you to take on more risk with your other assets. They represent your phantom net worth, and certainly have value.
Just as some people don’t include primary residence in their net worth because you can’t withdraw from a primary residence (unless you downsize) some people may decide not to include the value of pensions or social security. If you take 500,000 dollars and buy an immediate annuity, do you not include the 500,000 dollars in your net worth. Of course you do, you just bought a stream of income that has value to it.
In the returns for property, u write
10-15% compares favorably to the average S&P 500 return of roughly 5.6% from 1999-2018 and 8% – 10% since 1926.
What about the mortgate rate, home taxes, maintainence that otherwise a renter does not need to pay?
It’s negated by the rent the homeowner does not need to pay by not being a renter. The return on rent is always -100%. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve tried to earn income more passively. This is why I sold one SF rental property in 2017 and invested $550,000 in real estate crowdfunding to take advantage of lower valuations and higher net rental yields in the heartland of America. Fundrise is my favorite real estate crowdfunding platform. It’s free to sign up and explore.
Related post: Average Returns By Asset Class For The Past 20 Years
I agree with Edmund here. I live in NYC with my family of 4 and my husband and I make a decent wage, yet there’s no way we could afford to buy here. Renting is half the cost of what a mortgage would be not including the property taxes and upkeep.
For some like us, it just doesn’t pencil. The market is a more favorable place for us to invest and that is where we put our money. Maybe someday we’ll buy, likely when our kids are grown.
It generally never make sense to buy property for the first two years or so as renting is always cheaper. But over a ten-year period, owning in a superstar city like NYC Will likely prove to be a good investment if history is any guide. The return on rent is always -100%. There’s no guarantee that you’ll make money buying property. But at least you have a chance.
Property ownership is a lot about your time horizon. I like Property because it doesn’t take much brains, it provides utility, they can generate rent, and you pay down the mortgage overtime.
I am not a experienced investor but with the little I know property is a huge investment and illiquid; buying the wrong one at the wrong location at the wrong timing may cost one some hard-earned money. To me, it needs a lot of knowledge of the market and probably some luck! It needs lots of brain!
Realestate is a no brainer. The average return of purchasing your own home over 30 years is 20 x the s&p 500 if purchased through F HA
You may want to consider outside of NYC, but closer, perhaps Hoboken, NJ?
Prices there have cooled off a little, and what you would get for your needs will likely be better. Only factor I can think off which would not work for you is schools.
Good article. But we have to remember that average is just an average. There are many people on both sides of the spectrum, and the variance is big.
– Nordic Fire
This is a great article and one that has been saved in my favorites for several years.
I do have a suggestion for improvement. I recommend that deferred taxes on pre-tax savings be adjusted downward for deferred income taxes (Federal and State). I assume 30% of my 401(k) and Traditional IRA balances will be paid to the government and therefore should be backed out of my net worth.
Thanks for the great article.
Hi Ernie –
I hear what you are saying, and that’s a conservative and prudent thing to do – but that assumes you are paying the taxes in full this year (or the following year on April 15) – when in fact, those taxes won’t (can’t) get paid out until you retire, and then only on the annual RMDs – which could take 30 years. I get it – IF for some emergency reason you had to pull out those tax-deferred savings today, you’d take the hit (including the 10% penalty) – so your net worth today is something less than what is showing in your portfolio. But making the grand assumption that you’ll be earning 3% – 4% even on the most conservative portfolio, your net worth on your tax-deferred portfolio today in reality is a huge understatement, even without taking taxes into account….. In reality, the only time that a net current value of a portfolio is used is if you are using it to qualify for a loan or mortgage – and the banks automatically net off taxes from your retirement balances, so if you are filling out a PFS, don’t enter a pre-calculated “net” number yourself, because the banks will do it again automatically – you don’t want to get hit twice….
I have visited your website a few times over the years. However, I never knew the story behind “the financial samurai.” Today I read an article on CNBC about you. I must say you are the first young individual that I have read about that retired without “cheating.” What I mean by “cheating” is that you didn’t make any drastic changes to your life or had a significant head start in life because of your parents. I read about people who retire in their 30’s by living on only $30-40K/year or living in an RV. You did not do those things. You retired early with a healthy income that lets you live a nice lifestyle. So I commend you. I also commend the fact that you come from an average background.
My story is similar to yours. I’m currently 34 and worth a bit more then $1.5 million. My background was more disadvantaged then yours so I had a bit of a handicap when I started. I come from a very low income family, English in not my first language, I immigrated here when I was younger and my parents taught me no practical skills growing up. Because of the environment I grew up in and the type of friends I kept I graduated high school a year late with only a 2.4 GPA. I had no plans to go to college.
Luckily I decided to get my act together and started to get serious about becoming financially secure at 20. I’m on track to retire by 38 with a net worth around $2.2-2.5 million. My income from that will be approximately $95K. My income could be even higher but just like you I don’t want to sacrifice too much. Therefore, I’m keeping my big house (its paid off and $500K of my net worth) and my nice cars. Otherwise, my income could be higher since a lot of my income comes from real estate which generates higher returns. Anyway thanks for sharing your story with the world. It makes me realize that there are others out there like myself who got there without “cheating.”
I second that. I’m 33, and although I don’t have a high net worth at the moment, I’m on the path to making that a reality by the time I’m 40, and I too also dabble into real estate. The only reason I’m here was b/c I read the CNBC story and was curious to check out Dogen’s website, and clicked on this story which depeicted Yao Ming (basketball player) on the thumbnail. Good luck on your journey, and see you on the other side.
Interesting article. During my working years, I always tried to stay in the top five percent during the 1960-1990 era. Now, of course, that would not be feasible for most of the working population. Our country has changed radically and not for the better in my opinion. Now that I am in my eighties, I do read the obituaries. Many of my friends have passed away, rich, middle class or poor. Many are in care facilities having lost their eyesight or memory. Fortunately, my wife and I are still in excellent health and very active as we were in our 50’s and 60’s with no limitations. But in the end, we all die. So, all of this focus on money and earnings seems to bypass one of life’s lessons: focus on the journey and not the destination. Be Kind to one another. Even with a net worth of $200,000 in the USA, one can have a great life.
Well said. At 56, even whole heartedly agreeing with your perspective of enjoying the journey, I do feel some diligence regarding personal finance deserves a slice of my attention. I guess it’s all about balance. My parents were fortunate to have good health and have no financial concerns having a GE pension and having been good savers throughout their lifetime. My generation and those as young as this author are more on our own, and it creates some anxiety. Bottom line, I applaud your comment. As you note, we all will die one day. Still, I hope that by giving personal finance it’s slice of my life today, and by staying informed, I will be as worry free as you are if am as fortunate to have my health and live into my eighties.
God bless you Michael. And may god continue to grant you and your wife a healthy life. As I said in my earlier post I’m only 34. Having good health for me and my wife at your age would be a dream come true. Congrats on all your accomplishments and I wish you all the best.
Anyone who is upset about not being above average, don’t sweat it, especially if you have graduate degrees. There’s still plenty of time to “catch-up”. I’m turning 31 in 2 days and am right around $300k net worth. 5 years ago when I was about to turn 26 I was negative $70k.
Sam,
This article changed my life when I first came across it years ago. Without sounding conceited, I was already following all of the other financial advice like saving and investing, but there was no way to tell where I was relative to top earners. Then I came across this article and it has helped me put my net worth and efforts into perspective. It lit a fire under me and pushed me to make moves and strive more. I came across this article again in Business Insider and will be sharing it with my students (I teach high school Economics.)
I would love to extend an invite for you to share some of your insight and wisdom on investing with my students and podcast listeners (Ride Your Money Wave podcast.) Let’s connect!
I’m 41 with $904,000 net worth (1.808 MM household with my wife). 80% is concentrated in home equity. That’s right, $1.4mm in equity – mostly because we own in a super expensive LA area and held through some major price appreciation. But it was a big monthly nut, and our stock and cash portfolios are below the lower end of your charts (having kids doesn’t help, either) Trying to get more cash and stock because inflation has made holding the house easier over time. Earnings go up while the mortgage payment is fixed. Now, I’m thinking that defensive dividend paying large cap stocks may be good investments over a five year horizon. Also looking at building an in-fill accessory dwelling unit (ADU) on property in order to rent out to take advantage of new statewide California law designed to increase density. Thinking of fusing home equity loan ito fnancing the 160K design/build/permitting cost to erect a 500 square foot one bedroom unit
in the side yard that would rent out for approx $1600 per month. That could be the best possible real estate investment of all and safer than the stock market – and using leverage to do it. . . . thoughts?
Great article, how would you add a pension into this? Base on total value depending on your date of death?
Keep in mind that a lot of the nice gains ppl are talking about here and other places is due to the zero interest rate policies of the federal reserve as well as quantitative easing. Nearly 5 trillion dollars have been added to the Fed balance sheet to keep rates low. Bailed out banks, businesses and homeowners.
Finally, governments at fed and state level have been spending billions more. The fed debt is now $21 trillion. Plus more at the state level.
PPl are posting like they are real estate and stock market geniuses but really we are all riding the bubble.
Totally agree. However, it does take smarts to be able to identify trends.
Now the trend is turning IMO. It’s time to get more defensive.
I am a big believer though in the heartland of America, and have invested $810,000 in RealtyShares to take advantage of lower valuations and higher net rental yields.
How are you investing net worth?
Yes it takes smarts to guess trends but how most ppl can’t do that. I bailed out of stocks in late 2007 but failed to get back in because I never IMAGINED the level of interference of the Fed. I later gradually got in purely in health care stocks.
I am mostly in Treasuries so I missed much of the run-up but I am also 67 years old so I should be more conservative ‘anyway’. I was right in ’07 but wrong after!
I salute all those who are at least trying to better their situation. They just need to understand ‘why’ their assets have done so well. EVERYTHING has done well…stocks, bonds, cash, real estate…everything exc cash.
USA is still the ‘least ugly’ girl at the dance compared rest of world. But we are in uncharted waters with our level of debt, public and private.
Regards,
Trippe
“EVERYTHING has done well…stocks, bonds, cash, real estate…everything exc cash.”
So…has cash done well or hasn’t it???
Excellent comments and sincerely agree with your comments. To see that a full 20% of our GDP is financial services is just crazyness…….sure, that can happen as interest rates have gone down for 30 years. Try and grasp what will happen to the financial services industry (which for all practical purposes doesn’t really produce anything) and GDP as rates gradually go up ?
Just to be clear, your net worth calculations do not include the debt that is acquired through a mortgage, correct? If that is the case, most younger folks would have negative net worths.
Per CNN Money, the average net worth for ages 65+ is $232,000, but per your analysis the average net worth of the above average 65 year old is $2,871,500. Why would you need over 12 times the average to be considered above average?
Also, in order for a current 65 year old to have had a net worth of $250,000 as a 30 year old, 35 years ago in 1983, seems a bit excessive to be considered above average. Wouldn’t that be like a 30 year old today having a net worth over $600,000?
I see a lot of people posting about trying to pay off their homes quickly. Given the low interest rate environment it seems that a better financial choice would be to refi/equity loan and use that capital to invest. While paying of your home does provide a risk free earnings by not having to pay interest, with rates in the 4% range and given they are tax deductible you should be able to beat the real 3.5% cost of a mortgage over the long run. Its a bit of a risk trade off, some people may prefer the risk free nature of not having to pay interest, but its hard to imagine not being able to earn a higher long term return on the cash you are using to pay off your mortgage. Additionally paying off your home puts a higher concentration of your wealth in real estate which may reduce your ability to properly diversify. Most people view diversification as a portfolio by portfolio objective but it should ideally be done across your entire net worth. Just something to consider… Love the site really helpful to gauge how well you are saving.
PS. I may be biased, I work in the hedge fund industry so my work has me close to markets and has help to provide me with above average investments returns but still even at average market returns of 7-8% still better than the total cost of interest on a loan.
Classic money mindset stuff, right? Poor and lower middle class tend to abuse debt, since their savings are low. So when you “graduate” to the full on middle class, you become allergic to debt a la Dave Ramsey (not that there’s anything wrong with this, a lot of people would be better off w/ this allergy).
But say you have $225k left of mortgage at 4% for 20 years (240 payments). That’s a P&I of $1363.45 a month. If, instead, you put that $225k into an investment that makes around 7.52% annual return, you could simply take the average monthly interest and use it to pay the mortgage. And then you’d end with the home paid off and $225k, versus the home being paid off. Riskier sure, but over 20 years, that’s about what’s going to happen. And given that even $3k a month w/ a paid off home would probably afford a fairly luxurious retirement anywhere, that’s like a quarter of a retirement account.
Thanks to you both for these closing comments. I have been aggressively trying to pay down my mortgage over the last year, I’m a Dave Ramsey girl. I have been searching on-line for advice on whether that makes since considering the affordability of my payments ($625.00/month, I make $70,000/year) and my 3.25% interest rate. I couldn’t figure out a good approach mathematically to justify not just getting the thing paid off. I’m kind of embarrassed because I think I heard this advice before but I don’t think it clicked. These examples really helped it make since to me and I’ll start reallocating the $2,000 extra dollars a month I was paying on my mortgage to my brokerage account and saving for my rental property, which i didn’t want to buy until my home was paid off. Thanks again.
@FinallyAdulting – I was exactly like you in regards to paying off debt based on my parents’ upbringing – we finally worked with a financial advisor who explained it simply – in the 70’s, interest rates were high and property values were increasing at a higher percentage. It made sense to pay down high-interest loans on appreciating properties. But in today’s economic environment, with very low mortgage rates, and property values stagnant (excluding west coast), your money is much better off in other investment vehicles that can easily outperform your property asset. Your 3.25 mortgage rate is simply fantastic (assuming it’s 30 year fixed) – enjoy the tax write-off, and put your money to use elsewhere (but be prudent with those investments; diversify and select quality instruments – emphasis on income, income and growth, not just growth). My wife and I did that when we got married, I sold my house for a very good return in 2006, put the minimum down on our next house (and got a great rate as well), and invested the significant difference in the market. Our property has never recovered from the real-estate crash of 2008, but of course the market has not looked back, and for that it was 100x worth the financial advisor’s fee for that one bit of investing advice. Of course, I probably could have found it out for myself for free here on this site, but my financial education is a work in progress….
I think much depends on where you are financially – early in the game versus a little older – and what your asset allocation looks like. I aggressively paid down debt when it made sense – our debt was at a high interest rate, relatively, and I didn’t have a better alternative (in my mind) for the cash. Now, at 60, I don’t want any debt. Maybe that is not the best way to deploy extra cash or to think about things but I feel more comfortable this way. I was leveraged to the max in my 20’s and 30’s, less so in my 40’s and have entered the zone where I don’t need to carry debt. I can, and do, pay cash for everything (homes,cars,etc.). I have a substantial portfolio – equities, bonds, REI – and feel that owning certain assets free and clear is where I should be. It’s a balance of assets.
But younger, yes, I was very leveraged and had 12 rentals by age 30. Way out there at times – but guns not butter. I think there are stages that are appropriate. In the end it’s about the numbers – where is your cash best deployed. What are the bottom line numbers (opportunity cost, after tax cost, etc.). Taking risk costs money – risk/reward/educated risk. When you are younger is the time when you have little/less to lose and plenty of time to recover.
That said, there is no way I would pre-pay a sub 4% mortgage.
p.s. our financial advisor just gave us our projections/plan – we end up leaving our kid 15 million (if we live to 95). And we started out broke.
@Lynn – all good points; at your point in life, being debt-free also means (mostly) worry-free for your family in the event something happens to you. Hope you have a good plan to enjoy from here on out – :)
Dear Financial Samurai,
I am currently single 40 year old and pretty much spot on with your plan. I am weighted/interested a little more in real estate as I am close to paying off my first home and currently in process of buying 2nd property. My goal is to hit 1million net worth by 42. By 42 I will have my first home payed off and solid rental income 2200-2500 a month. My question is once you get to a million wouldn’t the growth be somewhat accelerated? I don’t see any reason why I shouldn’t be able to hit 3 million or more by 50. I invest in individual stocks in my Roth IRA (highest growth/success), have a solid 401K, IRA in mutual funds and real estate as I mentioned. Do you have any strategies for someone in my current situation who is more ambitious/aggressive with there goals. I am particularly interested in suggestions on how I can capitalize on having a home payed off at a relatively young age as this required some sacrifices. Thanks for your thoughts.
What a great article, glad I discovered it. Will definitely reference this moving forward. I just turned 30 and currently have 205K in post tax (kept in the market), about 115K in retirement savings accounts, another 15K in cash at all times for expenses. I do not own any property. Living in NYC I constantly struggle with should I own or should I not. If I owned my actual rental unit, I’d be paying about $2,500 or more extra per month due to a variety of reasons. Not to mention I would have wiped away my post tax savings with the super high cost of living here. The day I leave the city, I plan to own. I save more on the post tax side because I’m trying to build that number up to buy a small business someday. May in my early 40’s. Anyways, awesome article – important read for anyone.
Question: When you speak of post tax savings a year in your post, are you saying that’s how much a person should save a year?
For example: Does the article state that a 45 year old should be saving $250k a year in after income?
I agree you have a lot of good information. I’m 32, and have 53 apartments and 1 office building I rent out. My net worth is about $3M. I started with one rental house I bought in 2012 for $62,000.
Do you think current inflation (cost of living) would cause these numbers to be more in 2018?
I feel like you deserve a guest post here (or elsewhere) to teach folks how you went from 1 -> 53+ in 6 years!
@Daniel – I second Jones’ request… please share your story as it seems quite exceptional.
I am on the “purchase one rental a year plan” but that doesn’t even come close to your acquisition curve. I rent furnished bedrooms which is an approach that doubles the cash flow on a property.
Congrats and thanks for any learnings you can share!
I am 40 with a net worth of ~$750k. I do own my own home. Most of my wealth came from investing in equities. Part-way into my management career, I did an MBA (part time, while working), which has increased my earning power.
I am separated and have shared custody of young children. It was an amicable separation, and we each kept all our own assets. As the higher earning parent, I pay child support to my ex.
To date, most of my employers were on the small side and did not offer any type of company retirement plan. The employer I’ve been with for the last few years currently offers a DC plan only. They offer partial contribution matching so I definitely take advantage of that.
My personal goal is to hit a net worth of $1M by 45. This assumes I don’t lose my job for some reason and that markets are stable. If we’re in a downturn, my net worth will decrease but it will also be a good time to buy…
Beyond that goal, I might like to retire early, in my fifties. Depends how I’m feeling and how my finances are doing. TBD.
Compared to a lot of the people in the comments, I’m average or below average. 25 year old renter here (paying under $500 a month in rent and utilities for a 1BR apartment). Only 3 years into my career. Have been maxing my IRA for the past 4 years. Started maxing 401k last year, and have been putting any extra into a brokerage account. Graduated college in May 2014 with $18K in student loans. Paid them off in Sept 2015. Working as an engineer in a LCOL area. Here are my current numbers according to Personal Capital:
Cash: $31,305.50
Investments: $86,938.69
Credit Cards/Loans: $0
Car: $2,508.00
Total Net Worth: $120,752.19
Hi Sam
According to your table, at 45 I should have close to 600k in 401k savings, 200k in post tax savings and 117k in equity for a total of 914k net worth. My numbers are more like 400k, 150k and 1.2M for a total of 1.75M because i live in the SF bay area with it’s outrageous real estate prices and own two homes, so most of my net worth is property equity. Don’t know whether to feel relieved that my overall total is much higher or panic that most of it is parked in real estate that lies on an earthquake fault line!!! Thoughts?
Good question! Read this post: https://www.financialsamurai.com/why-i-sold-my-rental-home/
I do feel tremendous relief selling as my home was a PITA and in the Marina.
Can you explain how you factor real estate into the total net worth?
Let’s say I put $10K down on a house valued at $250K and I get a home loan for $240K.
My mortgage payments are $1,500/ month, so after 10 months I will have paid $15K into the loan. Would I add $10K + $15K to my net worth or would I subtract approx. $235K from my net worth ($250K + loan interest – $15K)?
I am 22 years Old and have a net worth of $125,000. $55K Cash, $50K Property Equity and $20K 401k. Am I in the top 1% by age? I would also like to know where I need to be in the top .1% by age. I would like to know based on income and net worth. Thanks!
My goal is to be a make a million in total gross by 24 and become a millionaire by 28. I read your articles very often so I appreciate the feedback. Thanks!
You can check out the following article: The Top One Percent Net Worth Level By Age Group
Thanks for the quick response! You have provided two charts one shows $75k net worth and the other shows $200k net worth by 25 to be in the top 1%. Based on those figures I should be comfortably on my way. By 25 my target is to be at $500,000.
Do you have any article showing targets for the top .1%? I have had trouble finding information on that since most of the statistics are on age groups above 35 and I am only 22.
Maybe someone else has commented on this elsewhere, but it isn’t clear whether your figures are “per person”, as I usually see in your posts, or pER household.
Thanks for reading.
It’s per person, but it can be per household if one spouse does not work for whatever reason e.g. raising children, which is the most important job on Earth.
Here’s The Average Net Worth For The Above Average Married Couple
Sam, how can I calculate my pension in terms of net worth. It will provide substantial payments for life.
See: How To Calculate The Value Of My Pension
Sam – Enjoy your newsletter. One thing the charts for average NW of the above average individual doesn’t take into consideration is life itself. Realize that the divorce rate for first time marriages is about 50%; the likelihood of being fired or downsized (the latter can be for a variety of reasons i.e. economic downturn, company merger or acquisition, redundancy) at least once in your career; and/or issues related advancing age in one’s career (discrimination, health issues, etc) are all very real factors that happen to the brightest and best out of our top academic institutions in the process of living life. Setting goals are great; however, the best laid plans with great opportunity are often met with at least one of the factors I mention that places one in what I call financial recovery mode to be ready for future retirement. Goals can still be met but realize the road to those goals is often met with the very factors that come with living life.
Agreed. This post it highlights the individual and not the merit couple. I do have a average net worth for the above average married couple post as well.
But in the meantime, check out this post that touches upon divorce: https://www.financialsamurai.com/financial-dependence-is-the-worst-why-each-spouse-needs-their-own-bank-account/
Hi Sam,
this is a my first post here so a brief intro is in order. I’ve been an avid reader of FS since 2-3 years. I’m 45 and lived in SF for ~5 years uptil 2005. I now live in Pune, India, to be closer to aging family and all the delicious tandoori food. I was introduced to the very radical idea of saving 50% income back in 1999 by my wise elder brother as a result of which I followed decent basic principles of saving and investment along with keeping costs low, uptil 2014. After I discovered FS, my FIRE goal became supercharged. I discovered a powerful tool which helped me build my own set of clear goals. My goal is to retire now before I turn 50. I have my own apartment paid down, 1 apartment on rent (pays me 10% of my monthly expenses as post-tax) and a commercial convenio-store sized place.
FS has also inspired me to get going with side hustles and leveraging the internet. My background is as a developer so I have written my first android app as a test bed. Better ideas should follow as well. It’s a lightweight News, Mags and Blogs reader which enables focused reading, as opposed to the popup-led popular news items which most apps nowadays promote. It may not have a USP, but hey, FS has taught me to stay at it, better things will come!
As my tribute to FS, I have included Financial Samurai in the Blogs section of my News World Ultra app (smiley smiley). My app can be found here on the Google Play Store –
Once again, thanks Sam, for sharing your experience and wisdom for the benefit of so many. It’s great it helps you run a solid business at the same time. The best of sustainable living and world peace.
Sameer
I don’t even want to finish reading because apparently the fact that I have student loan debt means I can’t be above average. Apparently a first generation college student whose parents couldn’t afford to help and then lost everything their junior year in college (2009) just can’t make the cut. Financial advice shouldn’t rely on coming from money or be a put-down that makes someone feel bad about having overcome a lot in their lifetime. I still save my butt off and have a lot for what I was given. I should feel proud of that, and was here reading because I am proactive and interested in always doing better. But reading this made me feel awful. I won’t be reading financial samurai again.
You can let your current situation define you, or you can look at your situation in and improve. It’s such a pity that you’ve already adopted a defeatist mentality so young in your life. If you don’t believe in yourself, nobody else will.
The reality is, a lot of people have been born on second or third base. Where their parents have paid for your tuition or the students got scholarships and didn’t have that as a result. This is the real world we are living in, not some fantasy land where we need to Pat everybody on the back.
Your comments, Anon, are the reason I’ve become so disheartened with young people today. We all have internal conversations that can either contribute to our success in life, or send us down the wrong path. For example, thoughts that take on an unhealthy attitude will most certainly work against us, like your comments regarding your inability to be “above average.” Is that what you see when you look in the mirror every day? As the quote indicates, “Life is 10 percent of what happens to you and 90 percent of how you react to it”? Life, on occasions, is hard for all of us, but it’s a matter of how you view and respond to those times that will determine whether you are on the right path. Your attitude has put you on the wrong path in life, but I pray that you are able to see the light. I read Financial Samurai, BiggerPockets and other blogs to learn from the articles and the varied opinions from respondents – these blogs are valuable resources. I strongly suggest that you continue to read them…good luck, Anon.
I agree with the others. This attitude will torpedo you. You make your own luck in this world. We are 59 and just crested 20MIL. No $$ from anyone, ever. My parents paid for my undergrad education but not Law School (I worked FT and went to night school and still had debt from a State School). My husband’s parents could not pay one cent of his college.
Quit crying and set some goals.
It’s so interesting that the “above average” individuals all seem to own homes. My wife and I have been wondering how long to wait before buying, but we’re leaning towards buying sooner rather than later (with a 20% down-payment of course). Thanks for including that 401k chart, looks like we’ve got just a little more to save before becoming one of the high-end savers for our age!
I strongly believe rising home equity has been the BIGGEST reason for the widening wealth gap over the past several decades. You can just see the figures in plain site. If the median home that costs $200,000 increases by 3%, that’s a $6,000 increase. But if the median household income of $56,000 increases by 3%, that’s only $1,680 increase.
Compound this simple difference over many years plus the fact the homeowner pays down the principal = huge wealth gap.
I’d just be CAREFUL buying a home in 2017. We are at the top of the market. It can go higher of course, but be picky. Run the numbers.
Related:
Should I Buy A Home In A Rising Interest Rate Environment?
Real Estate Is My Favorite Asset Class To Build Wealth
Focus On Trends: Why I’m Investing In The Heartland of America
Sam
Great Article Sam! Thank you. I also really enjoyed reading “most” of your reader’s comments and thought I’d give my own two cents. I am 28 and always considered myself a “well above average” saver. After reading your article I realized how very wrong I was. At best I’m slightly above average (even below your low estimates) and have no where near the savings I should have by now. This is changing now (see my new budget below). At age 27 I had a total net worth of about 75k, decided to go traveling and currently at age 28 I am left with approximately 55k.
I don’t have a college degree and live in Switzerland. I just started to work again (after traveling through for approximately 6 months) and my base salary is USD 100’000 per year. I figure it’s time to do some serious saving now so I have the option of retiring soon-“ish” (10-20 years).
On the whole, I believe your aggregate figures work very well for Switzerland, though there are big differences if you break things down. Let me explain:
401k:
People in Switzerland typically don’t start saving for retirement until they’re 25 years of age. Contributions to (our equivalent of the) 401k are actually determined by the employer. By law, contributions start at age 25 and amount to a minimum of 7% of the employee’s salary (50% by employee and 50% by employer). That minimum rate increases every 10 years or so to a maximum contribution of 18% at age 55-65. Clearly our restrictions will not allow the average Swiss to get anywhere near your figures in that department.
Now that being said, we do have a separate “tax-exempt account system” to which we can pay a maximum of approx. 7k a year. But hat helps only a bit.
Real Estate:
We fare even worse in this department. The median home price in Switzerland is about 1 million and if you want to own a home near (2h commute or less) a city (where the good jobs are), you’ll often have to pay at least 1 million. What’s more, home owners are actually penalized by having to declare what we call “Eigenmietwert” as income. Basically the property worth is officially determined by an estimator and you are required to declare the amount you would hypothetically earn if you rented your home out, as income! I wonder what you would propose the average Swiss do in the home equity part of your equation. :)
Post tax/Personal savings:
This is where living in Switzerland pays. For such a small country (approx. 1.5 times larger than the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex), our tax rates differ a lot from place to place. I checked online and found that in California the tax rate for someone with my income (100k) is approximately 32% (including federal, state, local and FICA). I live in one of the lowest tax regions in Switzerland and pay approximately 16.75% (in 3 years it will drop to under 15%).
My personal situation:
Until I started my new job I did not have a 401k. My current employer is extremely generous (pretty much unheard of by Swiss standards) and allows me to make a 5% contribution, which he matches 3:1. Thus my 401k will actually grow at a staggering rate (by Swiss standards) of 19k a year (not 20k for silly, technical reasons). Thus I am somewhat lucky in that department.
Unfortunately we have laws that limit the risk (and thereby potential return) we are allowed to take with our 401k and “tax exempt account” money. All in all, these restrictions prevent me from getting anywhere near to your high-end estimates, though over time, I should top your “low-end” estimates. Obviously I’m maxing out the “tax exempt account”.
As owning a house doesn’t make any sense financially, I currently rent a flat for 1500k a month. Seem like a lot? Let me explain.
Property prices and thus rent is more expensive in Switzerland
Rent is higher where I live, because it’s one of the lowest tax regions
My tax savings when compared to an “average” Swiss region are approximately 8k a year. At the same time I am paying about 3k more for my apartment because I live in a low tax region. All in all, I am saving approximately 5k a year by my choice of location. This makes a huge difference, yet most of my friends don’t seem to grasp this, let alone are willing to act on it.
Now I do believe it’s important that one saves as well as lives his life. Therefore I actually budget about 500 bucks a month for traveling and the purchase of gadgets, gifts, etc. I am left with saving 3k a month (7k of which goes to tax exempt account annually).
I did the math, and to be comparing apples with apples I took my hypothetical income after California taxes (I am paying higher rent for at least a part of my tax benefit after all) and I get to a post-tax/personal savings rate (excl. 401k, incl. tax exempt acc) of 53%. Adding my annual 401k savings my total savings rate climbs to 80%. I am currently thinking of ways to increase my savings a couple of percentage points, but that proves to be a challenge as living expenses in Switzerland are notoriously high. Therefore I am focusing more on the potential to generate side income (as one of the benefits of my current job is a 40h work week. No overtime pay.)
I will be investing my savings in passive investment funds on major equity indexes (e.g. CHF/USD hedged ETF’s on S&P 500 or DJIA). The U.S. stock market has historically returned about 10% annually (before inflation). I came up with the following scenarios for my net worth (including my current savings of 55k and 5% tax on 401k and “tax exempt account” at withdrawal (current Swiss rates if done optimally):
In 10 years (scenarios 1 & 2):
1: Half historical Equity Returns (5% p.a. broader market, 2.5% p.a. 401k & tax ex acc): 748k
2: Historical Equity Returns (10% p.a. broader market, 5% p.a. 401k & tax ex acc): 969k
In 20 years (scenarios 3 & 4):
3: Half historical Equity Returns (5% p.a. broader market, 2.5% 401k): 1.789 million
4: Historical Equity Returns (10% p.a. broader market, 5% 401k): 3.108 million
Got to love the magic of compounding. Obviously these figures don’t account for inflation. But they also don’t account for bonuses or pay increases (which are limited as I am not degree educated, but nonetheless I can realistically expect to get to 120k base salary if I don’t change jobs within a few years). Furthermore they assume a monthly contributions.
Now as I am very safety oriented, I will want to be able to live off of my returns without having to resort to touching the principal, i.e. my savings. At a conservative 4% of annual expense I am left with the following income for my four scenarios:
1: 29.9k
2: 38.7k
3: 71.5k
4: 124.3k
Readers of your blog might be interested in a brilliant site I found (numbeo dot com). Under the “cost of living” section go on the “cost of living estimator”, input your living situation and get a picture as of what your living expenses might look like at different locations around the world. Please do note that some costs such as health care aren’t included in that calculator. Also as far as I can tell, the information is “user” generated and though it seems accurate in the places I’ve lived and visited, this might not be true across the board. In my personal situation I could easily live off of 2k a month in Thailand, Portugal or a number of other low cost countries. I’ll make more than that in returns in 10 years under my “worst case scenario”. Pretty cool! Obviously I’ll want more than 29.9k to live off of annually as I don’t expect to permanently move to a low cost country … but still a cool tool to play with.
Thanks again for your great blog, Sam. And thanks for the many comments and for sharing. I really enjoyed reading it!
Please note that the flat I am currently renting is 1.5k, not 1500k. Apologies for the confusion.
Welcome, and thanks for sharing your background and details! I think it’s great that at age 28, you are so focused on your finances. This focus will serve you very well in the rest of your life. So many people have these “oh crap” moments in mid-life b/c they DIDN’T focus for the first 10 years!
Best, Sam
Thank you for the motivation! I do have one question. As mentioned in the previous post I intend to invest in an ETF on the S&P 500 or a similar index. I have read enough about investing to know that it’s pretty much impossible to time the market. I do believe equities are very high at the moment … but then again that’s what I thought in 2014 and look at where we’re now. Would you recommend I
1. invest my entire 55K savings in an ETF at these levels and then continue with a monthly contribution of 3k
2. commence a monthly contribution of 3k and wait for a 20-30% correction to invest my initial savings of 55k
3. Wait all together for a 20-30% correction before investing anything
I am heavily leaning towards option 2, as I know I can’t time the market. What if the stock market climbs another 75% before a mere 25% correction? I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this matter. Thanks
I always like legging into my investments in various tranches because you never know when the top or the bottom is. Therefore, #2 is a better way to go.
Aggressive savings will be your primary driving force for net worth growth in the beginning. It’s something you can control so do the best you can!
Related: How Much Savings Should I Have By Age?
So true. Thanks again for the great article and advice.
Interesting! I’m at the lower end of net worth as a 45 year old…but I have a military pension, so that’s $32k per year and I only need to supplement it with $18k more, which is easy. My spouse still works but has never had a 401k match. We have nearly $470k put away.
(I could live on less, and we could be more frugal, but we’re not.)
Haven’t done too badly for a couple of college dropouts.
These numbers seem a little flat to me. If you’re starting from $0, clawing your way up to that first $100,000 in under 4 years is going to be tough at a time in your life when your salary is likely to be at its lowest. Even a fairly aggressive saver is going to have a hard time doing that. I’m certainly not saying it isn’t possible, but it feels a little optimistic.
By contrast, things seem a lot slower in the long run than they should be. After 5-10 years working, your salary is going to be substantially higher and you’ll be making more. For example, even assuming your salary peaks at $80,000 after 5-10 years and then simply tracks inflation, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to go from the $250,000 at age 30 to over $4 million at 65.
I do appreciate the sentiment of the article and it tracks pretty well with who and where I am financially, though. Honestly, I’m probably pretty close to a base case for this sort of analysis in terms of my demeanor, career, financial sense, and good fortune, all of which are favorable, but nothing to write home about.
Comparing to the total net worth numbers here, though, when I began working I started out about two years ahead of the curve (due to inheritance), whereas now I’m about on track with it at age 28, and my current long-term financial estimates put me at least 5 years ahead. Given that my financial life hasn’t and isn’t really likely to change much (i.e. no X factor for me), I find it strange that I’ve been losing ground up until now, which would imply that I’m below average financially, but can expect to gain more and more ground as time goes on, which would imply that I’m above average.
I don’t have particular opinions about which side of things I should be on, but the contrast struck me as a little odd.
Your articles are well written, and your analysis/guidance is very useful. Obviously, individual circumstances may vary, so someone may have more or less saved than the ranges you show.
Many people with kids also try to save for their children’s education, which can limit their after-tax savings potential for retirement. Have you done an analysis to include college savings in your analysis? Did you envision that to be included in your “post-tax savings”?
A great point on saving to pay for college for our kids. FS assumes that an “above averagr” person had parents pay for college … but not sure that we are accounting for 150k/kid walking out the door as our kids hit college age. I am trending well above FS standards at 47 so this is more of an observation than a complaint. Blessed with dual income and side business most of my adult life …. BUSY but at least on track.
I am 53 years old and the projections are right on for me. I am higher in the home equity but lower in the 401k. I made a conscious decision early on to pay down my home mortgage. This made me sleep better at night, but, I realize it was not the wisest financial decision based on how the market has grown. What I am most proud of is I was able to do this while we raised 5 children (who went to private grade school and private high school) and my wife was able to stay at home while we raised them. We did not take a lot of fancy vacations and always paid cash for things (cars included).
Thanks for all the work on this post!
“Above average people seem to always be thinking of new ways to build wealth. There is an optimism about them that no matter what happens, they can always find ways to make more money.”
This was my favorite line, and I would add to it that those same people are consistent with wealth building endeavors. They don’t think of a new scheme, do it for a few months, then jump to something else. They are eternal optimists like you said, who add value to the world in meaningful ways for which they can be financially rewarded. Very few “victims,” in that category, but an awful lot of winners.
Hi, Financial Samurai,
I was feeling good about myself until I found your Website. I am 63, retired a year ago and have a net worth of about $1,250,000. I thought that was something to be proud of, but according to you, I should be worth twice that much. I live in an affordable Midwestern city, and receive an annual income of about $50,000 from a pension and Social Security. I think I will be fine, financially.
I am well “above average” by most standards and think your goals, if not unrealistic, are impractical for most people. But I do admire that you push people to save and invest. Just don’t invest in Enron or Lucent, or any number of failed companies, as I did. Of course, nobody intentionally invests in enterprises that go bust.
Probably one of the most interesting comments I have read in this thread in a while. Key words “affordable Midwestern city” . It goes to show you where you live goes a long way into defining what your targets should be. For the record, I’m 42 and living in a big Canadian city and trending comfortably above the targets in the article. Enjoy your retirement!
Nice article. I’m also hoping to get feedback from the group to see if we are doing ok with our savings. Looking at the net worth table, I’m not sure anymore.
Here are some info:
– My wife and I are both 41. She only started working 2 years ago.
– Combined Net worth is $765K USD. Breakdown is as follows:
— Cash/Stock = 197K
— Real Estate = 287K
— Retirement = 280K
No liabilities (no mortgage, no car or student loan, etc..)
– Our combined savings rate is around 40 to 45% of our Net Income.
Thanks,
considering you are 41. Average at best.
Those are good numbers – you keep that up and you should easily be able to retire by 50-55 depending on your annual spending.
Looks like I’m crushing my “above average” status based on my net worth. Go me!(Crushing is ~10-15% better right?)
hardly. 50% is crushing it.
Just did a quick check for Australia in case anyone’s interested… unfortunately the most recent data is from 2013-14 but it says: Average household wealth for those households who were renting was about $183,000, the average wealth of owner occupied households with a mortgage was $857,900 and for owner occupiers who owned their home outright it was $1.4 million.
So your paragraph about the correlation between net worth and home ownership rings true Down Under!
I think that there is misconception that you have to buy a home to get wealthy and if you rent then you will stay poor. The reason that homeowners are much richer than renters on average is because homeowners on average have much higher incomes that can financially support expensive homes. Without a high income, you wouldn’t qualify for mortgages. The poorest people with low incomes cannot afford homes and are forced to rent. The lowest income people on average have a lower net worth than the highest income people. I would bet that most high income people own a home and most low income people rent. This generally explains the gap in net worth between a homeowner and a renter.
I am 40 and we are about 1.25M in total net worth, so I guess we are above average. However, if you divide us separately since we are married, I guess we are below average. Either way, I am happy as we have more than enough to retire soon. Outside of CA real estate isn’t bad or super expensive. I haven’t shared our net worth on my blog yet but I suppose it’s inevitable as that’s what finance bloggers do.
The key is, even though we have had over 1M for a few years now total, it was not invested assets. Now we are above 1M in that category too.
Nice article, well written.
Given you mentioned your wife, that should be an interesting read for you: https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-average-net-worth-for-the-above-average-married-couple/
i’ve been near or maxed out my 401k since age 22 until now at age 31, plus get a 5% company match, and I am at 200K now in the 401k, your numbers do seem a little off.
Furthermore in terms of equity, those numbers seem very low, I am into my 6th year of ownership and have around 150K of equity in my house.
Also post tax savings is low too for the ‘above avg’
I just can’t see how I can hit your above avg on the 401K part… although I am way above avg on your other areas..
Hi Mike,
$200,000 at 31 is right in the middle end column of my 401k chart for your age. I’m not sure what the disconnect is? Are you saying you think you are way above average at $200,000, and therefore should be in the high column or even higher even though you are above average in the final net worth chart?
For reference, my 401k at age 31 was over $300,000 as I had profit sharing + match.
Thanks,
Sam
I guess by not obtaining any profit sharing, I am missing out to some degree. I just don’t know how I am way above the values you stated for the other categories, but in 401K I am lacking, maybe time to revisit my 401k allocations if I am trailing behind this much.
I have been maxing or close to maxing each year, I guess it does depend on your company match percentage as well. I’d like to see what you believe those values could be with a less generous company.
As many bloggers on Early Retirement, I have my net worth online (currently about a quarter of a million dollars), on my site.
I disagree that an average 25 year old cannot save $15k-$35k… I have done it myself saving aggressively. Currently I save 1.8k a month.
Thanks Financial Sam. Really interesting stats and another well written article as always. However, I disagree with the second chart particular – and I’ll quickly caveat that I can only speak from my own above-average experience. To expect that an above-average 25 year old can save $15k-$35k is frankly ridiculous for anyone not still living with their parents. When I was 25 I lived in London and was earning £32,000. This was above the national average, above the London average and far above the average earnings of people my own age at the time. However, after income taxes I was earning just under £25,000, rent, utilities and council tax was £10,000 (and this was at the lower end), transport to work was £3,000, food was about £2,000. Ignoring all other expenses, there was no way I could ever consider putting away $15,000 let along $35,000.
…that’s why it’s called above average. You’re just average.
Bill Gates remarked that he was the Lucky beneficiary of place and opportunity, and I think your article is making assumptions that “above avg habits” dominate the end result. I happen to fit the curve at age 60, but only b/c I took huge risks when I immigrated to the USA at age 42, and got massively Lucky. My home country’s tax system and economy did not allow for broad-based personal wealth building, which frustrated me no end, and for example my fine big house in a big city sold for a mere $60k USD in 1999. The result is I was way behind the wealth accrual curve when I moved here, and I could instinctively feel it – no need for a spreadsheet. Fast forward 18 years, and see how I was *lucky* to buy (squeaked in by the skin of my financial teeth) into San Jose real estate and Lucky to work in some tech companies with good stock options. I was Lucky to have a nice wife and kids that made a happy stable home. I was born with a natural smile and this again made me Luckier than many to move in society and make some very important connections. Its nice to think we plan and then engineer ourselves into a good position but that’s not been my experience. Above average has a lot to do with what Bill Gates remarked on, in my opinion.
Luck can certainly play a role – especially for people who make a lot of money off their primary residence. But most people who become millionaires in the US do it saving $3-$15k/year over a large number of years. Every day – people have choices – do I buy a big home or a smalller home? Do I push my 401k as far as I can or do I buy new furniture this year? Do I drive an old car or brand new SUV? Do I go out to eat or cook at home? Do I go party with friends or stay at home and study? Do I take a nice expensive vacation to Europe or do a daycation with the family? Do I work that extra shift and save extra money or drink a 6 pk at home and relax? Do I go to the bar to hang out or do I do research about investments and ways to save money online? Do I have the entire family on $200/month phone plans with the latest iphones or $50/mo on prepaid cheaper phones? Do I coast at my middle income job or do nights/weekends to get my masters in business? I find most people make their own luck with good behaviors.
Trying to do the math myself for a “high end 401k saver”.
Age 401k contribution Year
————————————-
23 14000 2004
24 15000 2005
25 15500 2006
26 15500 2007
27 15500 2008
28 16500 2009
29 16500 2010
30 16500 2011
31 17000 2012
32 17500 2013
33 17500 2014
34 18000 2015
35 18000 2016
If the person left it in cash, he would have approx $213k. I am discounting interest rate/inflation, time value of money.
Legally, on average the investor can invest $16384 per year. (I took the sum and divided by number of years)
Assuming they would buy S&P 500 every year, their total return comes to $399k. This is with reinvesting of $16384 per year.
If they would buy only small cap (VB), 421k.
If they would buy only QQQ, 511k.
If they would buy Vanguard 2050 fund, 312k.
Those high savers sound unrealistic. Am I missing something?
Yes. Company match and profit sharing.
See: https://www.financialsamurai.com/historical-401k-contribution-limits/
you are very optimistic. On average its about 3% they would match. I even accounted for that annualized.
i think you should revise the young high saver. they are taking some serious risk – 41% drawdown for qqq (assuming their employer would even provide a relatively high risk with little diversification fund).
I suggest using a Vanguard target fund as the average and S&P with a small cap value for high savers.
Using S&P 500, getting 400k is still hard and risky. This is with zero bonds. These results sound cherry picked — you picked some crazy fund which actually did perform but the chances of an employee providing that fund is hard.
IMO, S&P is a fantastic benchmark and fund (high sharpe & diversified & very low fees).
Sounds like business school / MBA math :-)
just saying
Sounds great. How long have you been working and investing so I can get some perspective from where you are coming from?
I’ve generally found that there’s more pushback from people under 35, and more agreement for those over 35.
You’re welcome to write a guest post arguing why the targets should be revised.
Related:
Net Worth Targets By Age, Income, And Work Experience
Extreme Net Worth Targets By Age, Income, And Work Experience
age 34. been working for 12 years.
401k: 432 as of close today.
been investing for about 6 years.
How did you get to 432k in just 6 years? Did you start maxing out the 401k from day one 12 years ago or did you start with a 0 balance 6 years ago? I’m not understanding when you say you’ve been investing for only 6 years how you got to 432k. You must be a very good investor or I misunderstood your comment about 6 years.
Its 432k in 12 years. Started to maxout at age 22.
Check out the charts in: How Much Should I Have In My 401k By Age
And, I believe thats somewhat realistic. The reason why mine is lower is because I had more bonds at a young age. If it was in stocks I think I could of surpassed the higher end.
I found this article very interesting, I am 51 and meet your net worth projections, however, it is 100% from Real Estate. Unlike most readers and posters, I dont own any other investments. So, I ask myself, should I diversify into other areas, or keep building wealth with the tools I fully understand.
In 2009 I had 3 homes and I had cashed in my pension and 401k to put into those homes so that I could be debtfree. I had 100k income. When the Fed took down our economy in 2009, I got laid off with 250,000 other people in my company. Although I got a 24k severance after only 15 months, I was house rich and cash poor. I could not access the almost 100k in equity I had in all three properties. There were no jobs in my field for a year and I had to take 8.25/hour call center job. I am finally back on the top, but I will no longer put all my eggs into one basket. I ended up losing 2 of the properties, and 100k of equity.
Correction: 52,000 people. Also, I didn’t lose just 100k in my property, I paid down the mortgages 100k. I lost that plus the increase in the fair market value from the original mortgage amount.
When we were younger we were almost 100% real estate as far as NW. We are 58 and about 1/3 equities and cash, 1/3 residential rentals, 1/3 commercial (Hotels). I think the residential is pretty recession-proof. My values dropped in the 2008 crash but the rents did not. I think of the rents like bonds – safe and steady. A hefty 401 represents about a third of the equities, the rest is from some serious banking of any extra dough. The commercial is not recession-proof but is well managed with lots of free CF. I will be winding down the residential over the next 10 yrs (after 30+ yrs I am sick of it!) and that will go to equities, bonds, etc. I’m gearing my equity portfolio toward blue chip dividend growth funds and preferreds.
Great post – love this and the above average married couple as I check in on them every few months to keep me motivated and on track!
Do you foresee any updates to these ever or pretty static in nature?
Good question. Since we’re at an all time high in the stock market, and the real estate market has recovered, it may be safe to add 10% to all the final figures. BUT, the most dangerous thing one can do is extrapolate into the future a high water mark of good times. That’s how lots of people got crushed in 2007-2008!
So, for now, the numbers still stand. 2017 401k max contribution is still $18,000.
The 401k catch-up contribution max, for those over 50, is also unchanged in 2017 : $6,000
This analysis is very good overall. My net worth is tracking well above,but the mix of my 401K savings versus “post-tax” is very lopsided as compared to these assumptions. That being said,I’m a firm believer in rental real estate. While homes can and do cost a bit to maintain,this maintenance (and property tax) is almost entirely tax deductible under the current laws. If you or your spouse are a realtor,the write off for renovations and maintenance are unlimited. In addition, the income is also reduced once again based on depreciation rate of the property. One major factor not addressed in this analysis are the taxes paid while deducting from a 401K. As we know there are also penalties if withdrawn prior to age 59 1/2. In short,I’d much rather have “post-tax” assets that earn a consistent 7% annual return than keep it in a 401K which generally fluctuates pretty wildly with the stock market. Just my 2 cents. Maxing out the 401K is great, but one of our best ideas was to start a small home based business 14 years ago. While the profits of $20-$30K per year do not seem like much,over time, they accumulated into a very nice nest egg,which allowed us to start investing on the real estate front. This in turn led to another home and so on. I would just challenge the readers to thoroughly consider the tax ramifications and benefits of focusing on post tax savings as opposed to the 401K only route. I think it would be an eye opener.
Check out: Buy Real Estate As Young As You Possibly Can
I’m a firm believer in rental real estate as well, and currently run three rental properties in SF and Lake Tahoe. If I move back to Honolulu, then I’ll rent out a 4th property. It’s good to hold on for as long as you can take it.
But I’m slowly not able to take property management anymore and am buying real estate with higher rental yields in the heartland of America through real estate crowdsourcing opportunities. You only have to invest $5,000 – $10,000 at a time, instead of hundreds of thousands for an SF condo/house downpayment.
Your numbers are almost 100% on target for me (62 year old male). My income started at $10,000 a year back in 1978 after graduating college at age 24. I then went to grad school and after that started my “real” job at age 32. So I only invested for 30 years but still hit your numbers for a 62 year old (guess I made up for some early years of low wages). The only thing you missed with me was on my home….it is paid off and valued at $550,000, which is high for Alabama. All other projections were spot on…………….I love reading your stuff!
Agree with you John! I’m the same at the 45 mark, along with my husband. When I factor in the debt we’ve accumulated with our business ventures and second property, along with our RRSPs and Home ownership (we paid off our prime residence – which was really our second purchased home) after 13 years of ownership. We used the equity in that home to buy a second property, then a 3rd for a new business. In our 20s and 30s we sacrificed the expensive trips, big wedding, and fancy cars to accelerate our mortgage payments. Our highest mortgage was 6.4% lowest 1.5% and our 2 additional properties are variable at 1.75%-3.5% each.
I had poor parents, worked through university and came out with 6K in loans at 9.5% which I paid off asap. I do think there are a couple of factors that are not mentioned that can have huge impacts on the numbers. Marriage, divorce, kids, health issues and job loss. All of those can positively or negatively skew the numbers. Definitely think being DINKS (double income, no kids) played a huge factor in paying off our first house quickly.
I just happened on this article and site.
I am stunned at how precisely it projected my 45 year old financial numbers. I mean really stunned.
I don’t talk much with my peers about how they are doing financially, but I know they spend like drunken sailors on shore leave and are constantly harried by money problems.
So I thought I was a total freak outlier in my financial position. But Sam nailed my numbers at the high end step by step.
It’s good to know there are other people out there building wealth through sound and solid strategies of thrift and prudent investment.
If there is one thing that should be taught every year of school so it is never forgotten – it is the amazing power of compound interest. It does the work for you.
Cheers!
In the final scenario, if the person lives to 85, they will have an income of $143 K per year. They probably aren’t going to spend it all (leave to kids, charity).
But what are they going to do with 143k a year, for a one person, with a paid-off house?
Also, wouldnt it have made sense to have saved less in 401? At $140k a year at retirement, you are receiving a higher income, at a higher tax bracket, than most people would have from 20-30s, if not 30-40s. What do you expect the ratio to be between average annual income during 20’s and average annual income after retirement?
Thanks for your thoughts,
Kye A.
I’ve been following your blog for a while now and think its fantastic. I love this post on net worth. I’m a Millennial and started a personal finance blog myself, and one of my main features is publicly documenting my net worth progress. My goal is to reach a $1 million net worth by 45, which would put me slightly ahead of “average” based off your chart. Currently I am 32 with a net worth of $352K (between my wife and I). Obviously I would prefer to hit that goal even sooner. My wife and I now live well below our means and save like crazy, so I think 40-42 is very feasible now. Keep up the good work, Financial Samurai!
That’s a ridiculous estimated numbers for 401(K) low-end or high-end, I have been working over 20 years, I’m in my early 40s and who loved to save every dollar of my salary, but my total 401(K) from various full-time jobs is not even half of your low-end number, because there were employers selected bad investments for employee 401(k) contributions and the maximum 401(k) contribution was very low years ago, your low-end number is too exaggerated with optimistic, not realistic reflecting based on the real bad economy.
May I ask you why you think the economy is so bad when stocks in real estate or at record highs? Also, you can take the 401K figures and use them as your total savings if you wish.
Take a look at this post: https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-inflation-interest-rate-paradox/
I have to agree with you with the economy. I have friends that have engineering degrees that couldn’t get a job in engineering, but were able to land associates and managerial positions in sales and insurance. There are jobs out there if you are willing to look and accept lower salaries.
Love this article and your others. Do you happen to have a post that addresses those of us that completed graduate education or 5-7 years for a PhD? I feel like we’re playing catch-up against your numbers, since what we made in grad school allowed very little savings that we then used to buy a house. Now we have good careers and are maxing out the 401Ks, IRAs, paying down the house, and contributing to liquid savings; but, we still are behind in your charts when looking at where we should be optimally at age 40. I imagine we’ll catch up in 10-20 years, but it would be nice if you had a reassuring table for our situation.
Hi Sebastian,
I do! Check out: Target Net Worth Amounts By Age, Income, and Work Experience.
Simply look at the column based on number of years worked.
Cheers
Thanks! So would you not count the years of grad school (in which we were paid, but very little) as years worked? And what about postdocs (in which we were also getting very little at first)? I feel like I’ve “worked” in paying jobs all along, just nothing that allowed me to save vigorously until the past 5 years.
It’s really up to you. The thing we must all face is death at some unknown point. So, give you spent so much more time than average going to school, your goal should be to try and live and work as long as possible!
Ha, thank you!
I’m curious how you calculate the post tax value of investments? I’ve got about $800k Of long term shares in a brokerage account, with the unrealised net gain of $400k. Do I deduct 20% for capital gains taxes on the $400k which makes it $320k and the total thus $720k? Or do I count it as the full $800k
Probably best to calculate the after tax amount to be conservative and more accurate.
Thanks.. I presume we don’t need to factor taxes into our pre tax calculations though?
Count everything pre-tax. When I first started keeping track of net worth I did pre and post, post gets so freaking complicated and quickly as you add more assets and trade different accounts and move through different tax brackets that myself (as well as any evaluation of Forbes lists) really only talk in terms of pre-tax. As an example, if you were to stop working and slowly realize your investments at low tax brackets you’d have a different answer from selling all in one year while working.
BTW – I’m 59 and was recently laid off by a large & voracious tech Company. It worked out well financially and the job was a well paid misery so I don’t miss it at all. Now I’m pretty convinced I don’t need to work again if I manage my finances right. We have about $650k in cash (which we use to buy & refurb small properties) the aforementioned $800k which is a nice mix of tech and F500 dividend payers, and just over $1M of retirement accounts- 750 in USA in appl, AMZN, GOOG etc, and $260K in UK where I worked for 12 years – BTW the $260K was $300K pre-Brexit. We also owe $290k on a place three blocks form the ocean that we bought 4 years ago for $800k and is probably worth $1.1M now.
Can I safely skip the work world and enjoy my health & harmonica now? Thanks
To clarify, the $290k is due over 12 years at 2.99% – which is just too cheap to pay off now. We’re better off using our cash to make more $$.
I’ve been using your tables for a while now to give myself realistic targets and I’ve actually gone back to calculate my net worth from 2010 to see how I am trending.
I am Canadian so the realities here are much different. First off, we can graduate with minimal debt provided you have an average summer job that will cover a lot of your tuitons and you are fortunate to be able to stay at home during your studies. So to start your professional life with a $5000-$10,000 debt is a real leg up (instead of 20x those amounts). Secondly, a lot of our weatlh is tied into real estate (either investement or primary residence), especially in bigger cities.
So, here I am at 42, and I’ve just passed the $1,000,000 mark this year (barely). I’ve been targeting a 10% yearly net worth growth and achieving roughly 14% over the last 3 years, mostly due to paying off my mortgage agressively, investing in my company’s shares and saving in my RRSP (the equivalent of your 401k).
I still have financial goals that I hope to achieve to keep my net worth increasing. I am targeting to fully pay my mortgage in the next 5 years and perhaps start looking at an investment property in 3 years, all the while maintaining contributing to my savings and investments (I target $15,000 yearly in savings and $30,000 in investments). Targeting 10% yearly growth brings me to a comfortable place by the time I’m 60 and gives me wiggle room for un-accounted life occurances (I am a divorcee so certainly can appreciate that stuff happens) and market depressions.
I want to thank you for writing a thoughful article and giving an “above average person” a target to shoot at.
A large amount for the amounts above have been allocated to the pre-tax contributions. The value isn’t truly the account value as there is a pending tax cost that will eventually come. The PV of the tax cost is probably more realistically the net worth as that represents such a large portion of the analysis.
As someone who has recently discovered the FI community, these numbers provide a great guideline to track against.
After putting myself through college I had a negative net worth in my early 20s. Upon getting a job in my field, I promised myself that I would never put myself in that situation again and I started saving what I could while paying down my loans.
I am currently 28 years old and my Vanguard accounts just crossed the 100k mark for the first time today! Here are my numbers:
Pre-Tax: 68k (This will be the first year at max)
Post-Tax: 32k
Home-Equity: 25k
Comparing my own spreadsheet to the numbers above I will cross above the average by 35 if I can maintain my current level of saving.
The ‘ah-ha’ moment for me was when I discovered that increasing your savings rate is MUCH more valuable than any hypothetical return rate!
I’m not sure of the ins and outs of the US IRA system, but this article is not accurate for those in Canada. To begin with, RRSP contributions are based on 18% of earned income, which doesn’t include passive income such as interest and dividends. In other words, you can’t contribute any money to an RRSP until you have worked at least one year, and given that $100K is in the top 10% of income earners in this country you aren’t likely to be able to contribute 18K in any year, let alone one before you are in at least in your 30s. Note, we do have TFSAs, which can help you contribute an extra $5.5K, but that won’t bring many people up to the $18K level given the median income is $50K, which only allows for $9K of contributions. Also note that taxes are higher in Canada, and a person that earns $50K, will only take home $41,500 if they have no other deductions.
Another problem is the money needed for basic living. Most people in Canada live in large urban centres where the cost of living is not cheap. A one-bedroom apartment is generally between $700-$1000 a month. If the average person is only taking home $3,458/mth then the best you can expect is $2,758/mth before other expenses. This often doesn’t even include utilities, which can be quite expensive. And don’t forget large student loans. Yes, I know there is one poster here that was lucky enough to go to have his parents pay for university, but that was back in the 80’s when tuition was much cheaper. Good luck having your parents come anywhere close to footing the bill these days, especially if they are trying to keep up with the wealth curve shown in this article.
In short, at least in Canada, the main point the article actually leaves out is that the person is fortunate enough not to be burdened by a heavy school debt and makes at least in the top 10% of income earners.
Sam, looking at your chart @ 53 our NW after 30 years of working is approximately that of a 65 year old. Pre-Tax Savings@ ~$1.25M, Post-Tax Savings@~$800K and Own Home w/Equity @ ~$500K. No debt. Two kids College Education all paid for through decades of 529 Plan Savings … Living expense avg ~5K/month. Does that mean I can finally quit the Rat Race :-) … Personal Capital indicates…”You’re in great shape for retirement. We forecast that your portfolio will comfortably support your goals, including $60,000 per year in “basic” retirement spending.”
With a net worth 40X your annual expenses, YES YOU CAN press the eject button! See: Net Worth Targets By Age And Work Experience
It may be scary, so please try and negotiate a fat severance package. But not a day goes by where I’m not thankful for retiring early. Each day I live after the rate race feels like a gift b/c one of my nightmares is to work my entire life and die the next day after retirement!
See: Overcoming The One More Year Syndrome To Do Something
Just a quick comment from a 53 year old who has worked hard, invested wisely on my own and been somewhat lucky (as well as challenged by the circumstance life brings).
Sam is spot on. I read the article(s) and continue to learn (yes, I still allow myself to learn). If I would have been reading this 25 years ago I also might have thought Sam is unrealistic. All I can tell you from an advice perspective, and you’ve heard it many times before, is start investing early. Not saving early, investing early.
25 years ago I invested $9,000 in my companies stock. This year my son is entering college at an eye popping (to me) $63k/year. I have two years covered solely from this $9,000 investment 25 years ago. Yes, dividends have been reinvested. But $9k to cover $120k years later is a bargain. I could have probably bought a car…gone on an expensive vacation….or made a bad investment. But I didn’t. I’ll include that in my “I’ve been somewhat lucky” comment.
I changed jobs 25 years ago. Had a meager $7k in the 401(k). Rolled it over…just that portion of my $1.4 million 401(k) is worth about another $100K. Could have withdrawn the money…spent it on something I wanted at the time. But I didn’t. Like I said, please invest early.
I could go on with more examples but hopefully you get the point.
Spend your time in a positive manner and trying to figure out solutions and looking for opportunities. Don’t try to make yourself feel better by trying to pick apart data. If you’re financially happy and satisfied with where you’re at, good for you! Actually, great for you. Money is certainly not everything. But having grown up with little, I can tell you that I feel better knowing with certainty that my finances with outlive me. And I don’t sit at home and not spend. I try to find the balance that allows great memories to be created for my family and yet not live outside of our means.
Best of luck. You may need some. But you can make it happen. Trust me, I did. You can as well.
I have to say I think your comment hit the spot. I especially agree with the last paragraph. Money certainly is not everything in life, but it is good be financially sound and know that you will always have enough to live on and then maybe alittle more. At the end of the day, we are given one life on this earth and we should enjoy it and like you said, create memories. Its all about achieving that balance between enjoying life and living responsibly and within your means. And there are so many ways people can do this by trying to enjoy the simple things in life. I myself don’t make a whole lot of money but I get joy and satisfaction from doing things such as going for long nature walks, just spending time conversing with family and friends and enjoying the company. I don’t feel like I have to spend a ton of money in order to live a satisfying life.
Apologies for the long post but I think this is a great blog and wanted to contribute my $0.02.
1. My first comment/thought is not directed at anyone on this thread, but in general I find it somewhat comical the conflicting criticisms that older generations give to millenials (and no doubt, in some cases it is warranted, but not always).
For example, a common criticism is that we are lazy and/or complain instead of taking action. One anecdote of this is how many of us point out (and in many cases rightly so) that expenses have increased while real take home pay has (generally) increased. A common way to combat this is to live with parents longer, which is a sacrifice on both the part of the parents and young professional (parents giving up space/resources, young professional giving up freedom). When this happens, a lot of times the person is then criticized for ‘not growing up’ or ‘mooching’ when in fact they are doing this solely to improve their financial situation in the long term and prevent themselves from being a leech on society long term. So, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Again, just an observation.
2. Coming from someone who is on target with the above benchmarks, I would say to take it with a grain of salt. Sam has done a great job of aggregating the stats, but as multiple people have stated, everyone’s path will be different. Similarly, he is free to define metrics in the way he sees fit and using the statistics to which he is privy. It’s important with any type of info like this to use it as a loose guide/framework, but at the end of the day we all have to make decisions and plan for our individual set of circumstances.
3. To touch on the student debt issue; One of the biggest mass-crimes of the last few decades in my opinion is the phenomenon of the educational system allowing individuals to pursue degrees that are not financially viable with little-to-no guidance up-front. By that I mean that when you are contemplating pursuing a degree in any field, it should be mandatory that you are told how much that education is going to cost you vs. what you can realistically expect to make from it upon graduation. It should be no secret that an engineering degree will, on average, command a higher starting income than a communication degree. At many institutions (especially private), these degrees cost relatively the same, which does not make much sense to me. I am not saying that no one should pursue these degrees, merely that someone should approach it with eyes wide open. I think we would have far fewer people in the debt plight that has become commonplace if they were made to acknowledge this up front.
Good luck everyone!
Okay, John. You lost me at #3. Specifically your student loan comment: “One of the biggest mass-crimes of the last few decades in my opinion is the phenomenon of the educational system ‘ALLOWING’ individuals to pursue degrees that are not financially viable.” We live in a free society, John! If you are pursuing a degree in Advanced Lesbian Culture in a Utopian World, then shame on you! It is statements like this that give Millennials a bad name.
YOU ARE FREE TO CHOOSE BUT YOU ARE NOT FREE FROM THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR CHOICE.
This is true, and I agree with you on this point.
However, it is entirely fair to say that the educational system fails individuals when it comes to pursuing certain degrees and their associated loans. Most colleges don’t have personal finance classes or education about student loans. They don’t often encourage students to think beyond the classroom and how they’re going to apply their degree to a real, full-time job. Yes, it’s up to individuals to make these decisions for themselves. But sometimes, when you’re a teenager and have no guidance on this other than “everyone has student loans!” and “you’ll get a good job to help pay this off!” it’s tough to think rationally about it in the way that you can now as an older individual. I know it sounds silly, and you probably think it’s common sense, but these are teenagers making decisions that will greatly affect the rest of their lives. Try speaking to a handful of high school seniors and ask them questions about finances, student loans, and what their plans are…most of them have no idea, and I think it’s because we’ve failed them.
To add to John’s third point, I also think there’s an issue with businesses assessing candidates by their education vs. their actual work experience. HR departments are knocking people out of their systems based on their education. Interviewees are getting ranked, in part, by the name of the school they got their degree from. I have a friend with 30+ years of on-the-job experience and he can’t get a job because he doesn’t have a masters degree. It’s absurd, but it’s also part of the reason why so many teenagers enter into college and huge loans. Often, the first thing anyone will ask you in an interview (when you’re young) is where you went to school, even if you have work/internship experience that should trump it.
Getting a bachelors degree used to be something to be proud of, and something that would set you apart as a candidate. Now, getting a bachelors degree is the expectation. To get ahead, you have to have a masters degree. Until businesses stop judging people by their level of education, student loans won’t stop.
I should have clarified. When I typed, ‘allow’, I was trying to allude to what Lauren more articulately described below. Generally, when making an investment, there is full disclosure of the ramifications of the investment, i.e., what you owe, what your exposure is, what your potential gains are, etc. I just mean that when you decide to pursue the degree, the loan company should provide similar information. Apologies for the confusion.
Agree with a lot of what you’ve said previously, but to the rest of your point, I am a bit skeptical that you think that the majority of people who go to college have the financial savvy at <=18 years old to make a sound financial decision. People who advocate freedom of choice without the same zealousness for creating an aware population to make same choice scare me. People deserve a choice, but they also deserve to be informed when making a choice. It's the same principle as the subprime mortgage crisis, in that you had groups lending to borrowers that had no idea what they were accepting, and in some cases you had people being flat out lied to/sold a 'dream'. If there was a doorway that said 'go here for a better life' over it, and you were free to walk through it, but there was a spiked pit on the other side of said door, you would probably make a different decision based on your level of knowledge of that part of the situation.
Full disclosure, I am a finance major, and made a good choice with the help of my parents who informed me of all my options when I went to school, but a lot of people don't have that leg up.
John,
You are obviously a very intelligent young man. Your views are expressed in a very clear and articulate manner. The premise, however, that the “inability” to make sound financial decisions is restricted to the young is a false premise.
As a Baby Boomer, I clearly recognize the generational differences between my generation and Millennials. Millennials seem less reliant on independent thinking and more on group-think. I know, painting with too wide of a brush, but there are certain inhibitors that impact [some in] either generation from moving forward in a productive way.
Active listening is a critical aspect of learning. Millennials were the first generation to grow up with computers in the home and classroom, which, in my opinion, has hampered their growth socially. My face-to-face conversations with Millennial tenants involve virtually no eye contact and plenty of texting. Conversely, there are plenty of examples of people from my generation that are poor listeners, which has hampered their ability to make sound decisions. The technology and circumstance may differ from generation to generation, but the “personal responsibility” still remains, which leads me to your comments on the subprime mortgage crises.
It is difficult to conflate the pursuit of a degree – and all that it entails – to the choices people made during the subprime mortgage crises. The only similarity is that both groups had plenty of information to make an informed decision, but were they listening?
During the subprime mortgage crises, people of all shapes, sizes and age groups made choices that were facilitated primarily by greed. I was very concerned that one of my properties sold at a 100 percent profit after two years of ownership. Did I know about the banks reckless behavior in issuing stated income home loans, no; or, the subprime lending and lack of government oversight, no. All I knew is that no one should receive that type of return on a property after two years of ownership, which prompted me to sell my entire real estate portfolio and sit on the fence – for two years – until I gained a better understanding of what was actually happening to the housing market. A 25-year-old green- keeper in my golf community making 20k/year bought a 400K home that was promptly lost in foreclosure. A college friend of mine in his mid-50s leveraged 80 percent of his net worth to participate in this market; he lost most of his retirement. Both were fully informed as to their debt obligations, but nonetheless, made poor decisions. Were they listening, maybe, but it didn’t prevent them from making bad decisions. I must say, though, both of them took personal responsibility for their actions – no excuses, they learned from the experience and moved forward.
Taking ownership of your life and being responsible for your choices is a vital part of one’s growth and development. Blaming circumstances or others for bad decisions will most certainly handicap one form moving forward. I would be more afraid of not learning from those mistakes.
I agree with everything you’re saying. Our generation (millenials) are maturing in a vastly different time than the previous generations. Cost of living is at record highs, wages have barely moved in the last two decades, and student loans is an abomination that I think will seriously mess up my generation in the future.
To those that say, “Oh you didn’t need to take all that debt and go to a cheaper school”, I say to you that even public schools cost more than $10k/year in JUST tuition and you’re delusional if you think you can obtain some cheaper subpar education and get a half decent job nowadays out of college. Even my dad told me his generation had it much easier. He started working in the 70s where a $40k/yr job as an accountant allowed him to buy a house, two cars, have two kids, and a stay at home wife.
Am I complaining about it? No, I’ve worked hard, saved well, and have amassed about 400k in net worth at age 30. HOWEVER, am I ignorant enough to think people can emulate my life? Definitely not. Sure I worked hard, but I got lucky as well. After getting a few decent bonuses in my early years (2008-2010), I subsequently invested that at the beginning of the current bull market. Nowadays, from the aftermath of 2008, my bonuses are negligible.
So for all the boomers sitting pretty with their pensions (which aren’t really a thing anymore), and savings, picture yourself growing up in the world of 2016 making $40k/yr and with $50k of student debt and tell me that it isn’t just a LITTLE different than the olden days. Again, I’m not asking for sympathy, just understanding the changing of the times.
Are you a perfect example of a millennial who is doing well and has it good? I’ve found that a lot of people say “they worked hard, and are doing well, but others aren’t so much” over the past 7 years and hundreds of thousands of comments on FS.
My conclusion is that WE ARE THE OTHERS. Yes, of course there will be those who are still struggling. But even in the struggle, the access and technology we have is still amazing. Congrats on your progress!
Recommended:
The Average Net Worth For The Above Average Person
Target Net Worth By Age, Income, And Work Experience
Apparently the whiners and the winners are at odds among the Millennial generation. I agree that the Millennials have challenges, but so did many other generational groups; remember the stock market crash of 1929? The difference is that previous generations had two things working in their favor: grit and critical thinking skills. Millennials, in large measure, have neither one of these skills to help them survive.
I’m interested to see how the whiners cope with the problems their generation is faced with.
I’m a millennial who is not a whiner and does have critical thinking skills. In 2014, my wife and I had recently graduated with professional degrees and begun working, and we had a negative net worth. Now, 30 months later, we own our own home and have an approximate net worth of $150,000. Our home is rapidly appreciating in value, one of our cars (a 2013) is paid off, our weighted average interest rate is 2.85% (before tax deductions), we have no consumer credit card debt, and our overall debt is falling at a rate of $1900/mo. Our parents did not pay for our educations and I just work part time. If things keep going as they are going, and we invest the max allowable $11,000 into our Roths each year, I estimate that we will have a net worth of around $650,000 by 2025, at age 42. Moreover, that figure assumes our incomes don’t increase and ignores retirement account growth. We did several things to make this happen:
-Earned scholarships to good schools.
-Invested what we could during the crash of 2008-9.
-Bought a $240,000 home with 20% down, on a 15 year term, in an appreciating market.
-Bought used cars that get good gas mileage from a reputable dealer.
-Milk credit card rewards and Kroger fuel points.
We’re only in the 15% income bracket, but we don’t spend wastefully and we invest wisely. In our opinion, wealth building is more about what you do with your income than how much money you make.
Well done Dustin! I like what you say about wealth building as more about what you DO with your income rather than how much you make. There are some folks who discredit my progress or what I write because of the income I made while working in finance. But the fundamentals of finance are the same, and it is often times HARDER to stay in good shape or spend more frugally if you have more money to spend.
Check out some related fun posts on Millennials:
A Massive Generational Wealth Transfer Is Why Everything Will Be OK
No Wonder Why Millennials Don’t Give A Damn About Money
Just keep on doing what you’re doing. It sounds like you have properly mapped out your finances and are tracking things well. See: Track Everything! We Are Eating And Spending Way Too Much
Congratulations, Dustin!!
sorry … no way in hell a “starting” accountant job in the 1970’s paid $40k
John’s number 1 comment is something which is often disparaged today. When did living with parents become a bad thing? My parents lived with my father’s parents until I was almost two. My wife and I lived with my parents for almost a year before moving into our first home. Each of our children lived with my wife and me after college. Our first grandchild was born while his parents were living in my house. We were happy to have the company and they were able to save money.
I think living at home for several years after college is totally fine. Especially if you can save money and use that money to buy a home. It’s when people are in their late 20s and 30s still living at home that starts to get a bad rap.
Related: https://www.financialsamurai.com/a-massive-generational-wealth-transfer-is-why-everything-will-be-ok/
It’s poor form to respond to my own post, but I do need to acknowledge that when I double-checked my historical net worth, that at 25 I WAS actually behind FS net worth chart (3 years out of school, aggressively paying down debt and saving), at 30 I crossed the line and by 35 was roughly 2.5x … and at that same ratio now (10-15 years later, to avoid giving exact age).
So, perhaps my disparaging remarks were unfair … for those that actually graduate with debt (not lucky in birth), the FS chart *will* look different … but you can definitely overcome quickly (measured in years) and be well above the line!
I guess I still reacted to my perception of 20-something attitude as I don’t think I would have claimed how unfair it all is at that age … was simply motivated to succeed in the long term!
But my own personal financial history actually validates the claim that the FS networth charts set a unfairly high bar for those that came out with debt … BUT, it’s still no excuse for not working hard (and succeeding!) in “catching up” and surpassing those standards!
Hey Chidu,
I’m not saying the charts are unfair. I’m simply saying that I don’t think they’re on-par with the situation that people are facing today. I don’t see people my age being in such good financial standing, but that’s just my perception and what I know to be true of my social circle.
I would also be wary of painting an entire generation as lazy. There are some who warrant that description, as is the case in every generation, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume here. Millennials by definition have higher healthcare costs, record student loan debt, a challenging job market, etc. that other generations truly haven’t faced before – at least not to this degree. It may sound like whining, but it’s real data. It’s the perfect storm of financial disaster for most of us. All it takes is one ER visit to knock you off your feet when you’re struggling to pay bills in your 20s.
I’m working through my plan to get out of it. I’m making 60k+ at a day job and hustling at night and on weekends to make ends meet. I’m still working through my plan of how to be financially successful. And yes, I’m sure there’s more I could be doing, but isn’t that true for all of us?
I’m not using this chart to benchmark myself against others because I simply know there’s no way I could have achieved these stats. I’m not the “above average” person with family inheritance by definition. I’m carrying a loan amount that, according to most financial calculators, I won’t pay off until I’m 55. It’s not great, and all of my anxiety stems from my finances, but it’s fine by me. I made the decision to go to college and I wouldn’t take any of it back. I’m extremely happy with my career. I’m extremely happy to be able to have a side hustle, even if it hasn’t gotten me any money yet. I’m extremely happy that I’m ahead of most people I know savings-wise, even if that means I simply have a Roth IRA that I’m maxing out.
I’m forging my own path and doing what I can to get out of debt while also trying to stop and smell the roses occasionally. I’m not whining that I’m not on-par with this chart. I’m not whining that older folks have it so much easier. These decisions are mine, and I own them. I just know that these statistics, as they relate to the younger generation, are far off – especially when compared to other studies that report on the same numbers. There’s nothing in this article that states where these data points are sourced from.
Lauren,
A sincere ‘kudos’ to you. You sound exceptional, so *keep it up*. I do mean that too … as it takes a certain dogged persistence to keep ‘punching the timeclock’ at a day job and working the side-hustle.
Take it from someone quite a bit further down the lifeline than you are (and with a grain of salt!!) and is still doing a version of what you are: I now have substantial organizational responsibility (and reasonably commensurate pay) in a corporate gig, but still with a substantial (and time consuming!) side-hustle. I’m an odd bird to have a corp gig amongst my peers in the side-hustle business, and an equally odd bird amongst my corp-peers to have a side hustle. I love the mix and it has yielded long term results. I wish I could say otherwise, but the number 1 characteristic I think that drives significantly ‘beating the charts’ is ‘persistence’. That isn’t sexy and it doesn’t sell books … it’s boring and maybe discouraging … but that’s been my experience. Perhaps others can do it better than I have!!
Quite a few young motivated folks here and a mix of whiners too … claiming the bar is too high at the ripe old age of 20-something.
I have made a lot of mistakes and am not the smartest guy in the room, but I am motivated, hardworking, and very (very) persistent.
If you think the charts are tough at 25 and are complaining about it … cry to mommy and go home.
I am 45-50 and have been about 2.5x FS net worth most of my life. No inheritance, no family money, no free ride in college (but please try to dismiss me and whine about your problems). Shut up and work whiners. To the rest … congrats
.. try to take small enjoyment along the way and keep at it!
Amen. Same here. Grew up in a dingy 1BR apt on the wrong side of the tracks. Paid for my own school, and cars, and everything from 16 (junior in HS on). We all make bad decisions, just don’t make them be a habit and map out what your goals are – and update them – because they change.
But I am also going to let everyone on a secret – get married to a great partner. Life is easier with a teammate who has your back and vice versa. Best financial decision (accept that she might be a cost center, but whatever) i ever made was to marry someone who shared the same values and goals and stuck it out through think and thin
Hmm, “not reflective of today’s struggles?” I’m trying not to give you an I-walked-a-mile-to-school-in-the-snow story, but each generation has their own set of struggles. I too paid my own way through college with three jobs and a small school loan. I slept in my car the last semester of my senior year to save money. To me, searching couch cushions for spare change was a sporting event. But, inch by inch, I worked my plan to get out of it.
I lived with my brother after graduation while interviewing for jobs during the day and working night-audit shifts at night. Once employed, I formed an investment club with a college buddy. We contributed $100/month to the club, which, over time, made money through small incremental stock purchases. We eventually had enough to start investing in buy-and-hold real estate, the rest is history.
My plan is not necessarily your plan, but there is a way forward for you. I recommend starting by reading 100 Ways to Motivate Yourself by Steve Chandler. By outward appearances, it wouldn’t seem like I would need to read this book, but I read it every year to ensure my head is in the right place. There are many people reading this blog that have found their path in life; others are looking for it. It is up to you to find yours.
“Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. It is up to you to give [life] a meaning.”
There’s no way this is accurate for those in their 20s. I worked plenty of corporate jobs and no 401k would get me near the low end $8k. I spent three years getting that thing to $2,500 and that was with my employer contributing as well.
I also think $10k is wishful thinking for a millennial to save each year. But then again, I’m spending an entire paycheck each month on student loans.
These 20-somethings must have amazing jobs.
Hi Lauren,
Do you think these numbers are not accurate because you are below these figures and in your 20s? There is no discrimination regarding how much you can contribute to the 401k up to the max.
Again, these figures are above average folks.
How old are you and what is your net worth now?
S
I’m saying this because I don’t know anyone these ages with such a high net worth. I’d say the average salary in my social circle is $45k (although I make a lot more than that), and these figures don’t come close.
I am 27 with a net worth of about -$20k (that’s negative $20k). I started saving for retirement way before anyone in my social circle, too. At 22, no one else knew what a Roth IRA was.
Got it. I don’t want to be a jerk, so I’ll respond with care. It’s important to look beyond your social circle, unless you’ve got a really great sample set. I’m sitting here with literally hundreds of thousands of datapoints since 2009 when I first started this site and I’ve used hundreds of specific datapoints about savings, real estate, stock market investing, debt, etc to come up with these numbers.
There is actually a HUGE world out there of people in their early 20s who know what a Roth IRA is and who’ve been contributing to a Roth or a 401k. Everybody who objects to my figures tend to be under 35. Just give it some time. Spend more time reading pertinent articles, searching the web, reading my archives and you will see different perspectives.
Once you get on the right path, you’ll be surprised at how quickly wealth can compounded. I promise you if you spend a couple hours one day reading posts on this site, or if you want to support financial education and read my Best of Financial Samurai book, you will get super motivated to build your wealth and actually gain more wealth over time.
Related: How To Save For Retirement If You Don’t Make Much Money
Why Tough Love Is Important For Your Finances
Best,
Sam
It’s not that I need the financial education. I mean, I do, and will certainly read the articles you mention above, but that’s not the main point here.
If you have literally no way to save money, how are you supposed to save money? One paycheck goes to student loans, and the rest goes to food, gas and rent. There’s literally nothing left at the end. I don’t eat out or eat meat. I don’t go out with friends. I don’t have any expensive hobbies. I go to work, and I go home. I’m trying to get freelancing off the ground, but that’s expensive in itself. It takes a whole lot of sacrifice to max out my Roth every year.
I went to a relatively expensive private college. Other than the fact that my parents didn’t foot the bill for my entire education (they helped with what they could, which was actually a decent amount), I match your definition of the above average person. If I didn’t have student loans, I would feel absolutely LOADED. I would be able to go out to lunch once a month! I would be able to not let my gas ride on E! I would be able to get the medication I need! But the average person my age has a huge amount of student loans.
I think that the reason so many people under 35 disagree with your numbers is that it’s not reflective of today’s struggles.
Where did you gather your sample of people from?
Lauren –
From your various comments I’ve pieced together the following: You generally fit the description Sam provides of “above average” except that you have student loan debt. If you didn’t have the student loan debt, you’d feel “absolutely loaded.” While you say you have no way to save any money at all each month, you’re able to max out your Roth IRA each year ($5,500)! You make way more than $45k, but one of your paychecks each month goes to student loan reduction. At age 27, you still have a negative $20k net worth. You’ve held “plenty of corporate jobs.”
If I extrapolate from your claims above, I’d assume you make $60k, bringing home approximately $4k per month after taxes. $2k (one of two paychecks) goes to student loans. At 27, you’ve been paying $2k a month for approximately 4 years now ($96k total). You’ve maxed out your Roth IRA ($5,500) for 4 years, $22,000 in contributions, and since we’ve been in a bull market for that whole period (up 60+%), your Roth IRA is now worth close to $30k. Simple math suggests that your student loans are still around $50k outstanding, assuming no other debt or assets. Those must have been some incredibly large student loans!
I don’t really understand the negativity toward the charts. I’m now 32, but I first read this post when it was published in 2012 and I was ahead of the chart then and I’m ahead of it now. I know plenty of people my age that are doing very well (and some that are not doing great). The interesting thing, to me, is that I don’t necessarily see many of the 9 traits Sam lists in myself or many of the “above average” people that I know. For the most part, those people are either entrepreneurs or have worked their ways up in their careers to command very healthy salaries, combined with modest living.
If you ask me, it sounds like you’re on track. Once those student loans are paid off, with the savings habits you’ve already developed (or been forced to adopt in the form of paying your loans each month) and hopefully with an annually increasing salary, you’ll be ready to take off.
You shouldn’t be contributing to a Roth at you age. You should not be putting money into a regular IRA or 401k if available as you most likely will continue to increase your income. Regular pre-tax free IRAs faze out for folks that make more that about $68k per year.
This is just one data point, so take it for what it’s worth.
I went to university all the way to a PhD program, though I ended up leaving the PhD program and completed a Master’s instead. I was largely able to avoid accumulating student debt.
As an undergrad I went to community college for three years and an inexpensive state school for three years. I paid for that by working as a dishwasher and a pizza delivery driver.
Then when I enrolled in the PhD program, again my school wasn’t too expensive, and I worked as a TA and a computer programmer to pay that.
Finally when I switched to my Master’s program, I went half time and worked for the school half time, which gave me free tuition. That was a big help as the school was an expensive private school. I still had to pay taxes, but Uncle Sam made me do that just-in-time. :)
Long story short I left school with almost no student debt. Don’t know how rare that is, but I can’t be the only one.
The fact that you are reading this site and thinking about your financial future speaks volumes about the necessity of financial planning, Lauren. My epiphany came much later in life. I realized at age 32 that “a job” was NEVER going to get me to my “freedom number”; that is, the amount of money in passive income that allows you to jump off the grid — or, if you will, no longer rely on “earned income.” It took 24 years for me to achieve that goal. I now own commercial and multifamily property that provides me with the financial freedom I so desperately craved.
There is an old adage that you become what you think about every day. The time between 27 and 60 will move at lightning speed, so I would strongly suggest implementing plans to provide financial security for the 60-year-old Lauren. Trust me, she’ll appreciate it!
Step one in this endeavor is to use your net worth as a scorecard. It is amazing what you can accomplish if you focus your attention and strengths in the right area.
Good luck!
I appreciate the support.
Where do I invest the $0 I have leftover at the end of the month, though? Where do I find the gas money to make it to a minimum-wage, after-hours job after working my other job?
It takes everything I have to max out my Roth IRA at the end of the year. There isn’t much more I can be doing right now.
Hi Lauren,
I recommend doing several things:
1) Take advantage of the gig economy. I’ve spent the past 12 months driving for Uber on the side and have made anywhere from $20 – $38 net of commissions an hour. Even if you just work 10 more hours a week, that’s $200 – $380 a week, or $800 – $1,500+ a month. There’s TaskRabbit, Rover for pets, Airbnb, freelancing through Upwork, and a whole bunch of other gig economy things you can sign up for.
2) Start your own site and brand yourself online. The point of branding is increasing exposure and creating yourself new opportunities since there are over 3 billion people online. You can gain a lot of consulting gigs and potentially new job offers once you’ve built a brand people are attracted to.
3) Refinance your student loans. Check the latest rates with SoFi. They are the biggest disruptors of student loan refinancing today.
Make more money, leverage the internet, and reduce costs. Of course the sacrifice is effort and time. So the question you will have to ask yourself is how bad do you want to achieve financial freedom.
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As soon as you find yourself making reasons for why you can’t do something or won’t do something, explore why. Is it really because I’m not doing enough to help others at 5:47am as I reply to you? Is it because I’m out of touch with reality, even though I grew up in emerging countries until age 14, went to public schools all my life, and come from a middle class background living in a townhouse with 8-10 year old cars? Or is it something that has to do with your own beliefs and actions?
I don’t mean to be combative, but come on…
1) I live in a rural area where there are no Ubers, and the last time I used UpWork, I was out about $1,000 for work that was completed and never paid for. I’m looking for other opportunities to freelance and have applied to about 300 opportunities with no luck yet.
2) I already have a website and online brand. I’m a director of all things digital at an ad agency, so I have this part covered. But it’s tough to get people to pay for things when they think they should get it for free. So again, I’m working on it but it’s slow going.
3) I’ve spoken with the various companies that I have student loans through, and they’ve stated that I can’t consolidate them. I truly don’t understand all of this – mostly because I have both federal and private loans – so I’ll do some more research.
So there’s that. I’m not trying to be a naysayer, and I really am working on getting freelancing off the ground. I get home from my 9-to-5 and spend the rest of my evenings working on it. I’m not saying that these numbers can’t be done. I just find it highly unlikely that these numbers are reflective of today’s generation. That’s it.
I’m 30 and started to work full-time at the end of 2015. Until March of 2016 I owed 5k in loan.
I have a full-time job in finance which covers my living expenses. But I’ve been working on weekends and some Friday nights at a restaurant in the last 2.5 years. I’ve been also tutoring in the last 8 months and I was able to set aside 13k for investment.
This 13k is a tiny sum to a lot of people but it’s a start. I’m looking to get clients this year in my finance job so I don’t have to work 7 days a week. But holding multiple jobs has allowed me to meet my short-term financial goals effectively.
As it seems that your full-time job pays well, I’m sure having additional jobs will allow you to realize your goals, and much faster than it did.
1. Move closer to work if possible
2. Sell your car
3. Get a bicycle
4. Cancel your gym membership if you have one as you now bike every where
5. Go to mrmoneymustache.com for additional personal finance advice that will work best in you situation
Your analysis sounds reasonable Jonathan, but $50k in student loans really isn’t outrageous considering private university tuition runs $60k/year these days… $50k is only $12.5k/year x four years… It could actually even be a lot higher!!!
Why do you think people still go to private school and pay that much money when the Internet has made education largely free? Is it lack of education, a great irony. Or is it a lack of financial understanding? Or is it propaganda somehow spending 60,000 a year on a private school degree means a better life despite whether you can afford it or not? I just don’t know someone who went to a public school: the College of William and Mary.
I agree that $50,000 in student loan debt is not that much compared to a home mortgage for example. Just developed a good income and savings system, give it enough time to play out and things will look much better over time.
I agree that $250k in 4 years is a big outlay, and I’m not looking forward to shelling it out for my kids in a few years (hopefully they get scholarships!) but we all know how things work. It’s at these schools with established reputations that kids start to network, and where company recruiters search for students that match their criteria.
An internet education just doesn’t offer the same credibility as far as I know.
If you want to be an entrepeneur right out of the gate, and have the means to do so, then spending so much for a private school may not be needed, but it sure helps get a foot in the door in the big companies if you go the corporate route. Many people do, at least to start out.
It’s possible things shift in the coming years, since the internet is a wealth of information, and I know there are multiple online schools which are still early stages.. It will be interesting to whether this develops over time.
That’s $50k in student loans remaining after paying approximately $96k in principal+interest over the past 4 years. Though since most student loans have a 10-year or 15-year amortization schedule and the interest rate is typically 6% or less, there’s no way all of my numbers work out. I suspect a bit of hyperbole in the comments from Lauren.
There’s actually no hyperbole, Jonathan.
I did not say that I have been paying $1,000 a month since graduation. Nor did I say that I’ve paid approximately $96k in principal+interest over the past 4 years. That is your own assumption.
I am actually slightly above the range of net worth for my age. I am 33 years old and a first generation American. My parents fled a war torn country that had experienced genocide. I grew up poor living in the rough parts of a small city. The pressure to do well was unbearable at times. We were told over and over, you need to be the example for the next generation. I excelled in school and when it was time to go to college, I could have chosen to go to a $35-$45k/year private college but chose a state public university on academic scholarship (tuition only). I took out loans for room and board and worked summers and winter breaks for spending money. Had I chosen the other school, sure I could have probably come out making more money because of those connections or the school’s name, but at the time I was only thinking about the amount of debt at the time. My point is that there are other school/education options out there and the younger generations need to determine if the major/school they choose is in line with the average salaries of students coming out of those schools with those majors.
I paid off all my loans aggressively, but was fortunate enough to be able to live at home for a couple of years rent free. There is no shame in moving home! When I finally made the move to NYC in my 20s living in a shoebox I really had to learn to budget and save.
I have had a successful career so far which has allowed me to work and live abroad for a few years as well as travel.
Many of my high school and college friends are in the range in terms of net worth provided by FS. Everyone came from low-middle class families.
I am technically a millennial, but do not consider myself one. What happened to Generation Y? We are distinctly different from the millennials in our thinking.
I thought this website was great and as FS has stated it’s for the average above average folks. I am tired of people complaining.
Hi Lauren,
How do you have 0$ after spending the necessities each month? Could you break down your income / expenses in which you really bring in 0$? Also, I’m not trying to brag and just want to provide a combating data point.
I’ve graduated college last month (I’ve been blessed with my parents paying my living situation and my scholarships paying for my tuition) with a $40k net worth (30k liquid + 10k car that I paid for). Granted, if my parents hadn’t paid for my living expenses, I would probably have a $0 net worth but what I want to ask is, I managed to save and work my fingers to the bone during the school semester both in classroom and jobs (yes, sometimes multiple) while making a below-poverty salary (12k in the US).
I am sure you make above 12k in your job as you’ve stated but I am curious as to how you don’t have any savings each pay period. Is it because you live in an expensive part of the US?
What is your situation Lauren so people can stop assuming?
What college/how much in loans did you take out?
Also, how much are you making that you’re left with 0 at the end?
How do you account for household net worth? Should it be double for a married couple or partners? Maybe something less since you’d have one home usually. Post-Tax may also be commingled.
Great question! See: The Average Net Worth For The Above Average Married Couple
Yours numbers are spot on for me. I am 62 and almost every item you have listed is within 5% of what I have except for my home (I over purchased in 2000. Since I had no hobbies I thought I would enjoy the house, golf course and lake that was built next to the house. I do not regret the purchase but it does push my home value up about 50% over your projections). I have since paid it off and enjoy it very much………………..great job!
Great to hear! I especially like to hear feedback from folks over 50. The pushback I receive almost always comes from those in their 20s who haven’t had time to let things play out yet.
Interesting insight into you that “above average” includes you justifying that your parents gave you money and support. That makes you “lucky” … it is definitely the “odd man out” in your list of other persoNalgene qualities. It might as well read: “The above average person has wealthy parents”. You can do better than that.
Ummm… what a stupid comment I’m sorry to say. My parents paid for my college by planning and saving even in hard times – they were by no means wealthy at that time (and still are not). But, they felt it was their duty to get us started off on the right foot by sacrificing the BIG house and FANCY cars – for which I’m grateful.
My point was that the list seemed to be about personal qualities, attitude, and accomplishmemt. So to me, including that your parents paid for your school as making you personally above-average struck me as odd. I definitely agree it makes them above average, though.
Lockton, so your comment above talks about how you are above this curve at 50, but then you admit it was because your parents paid your tuition. This, and your insulting comments seems to say enough about your actual character.
First, you can’t judge character by a few internet comments (especially when you take them out of context and make no judgement on the person who provoked those comments).
Second, my alleged “admission” doesn’t have much relation to my current financial status – its a wash at best because I’m putting two kids through college now and I’m paying their way (not to mention well over $100K in private high school fees).
But really, you’re missing the whole point of what The Financial Samurai is writing about…
Stating that someone is making a “stupid comment” doesn’t seem to be in keeping with most financial forums I’ve participated in over the years. However, if you’re suggesting that you have a history with the other poster, then who am I to argue?
The reality is that the fact you had your tuition paid for back in the 80’s certainly does have a large impact. I’m 46, so as you probably notice, the costs for a higher education are just a little bit higher than when we were in uni. In fact it’s more than 6 times higher now than when you went to university. That’s a huge burden on students these days. Although my parent’s didn’t contribute any money to my education, they did allow me to stay rent free, so I came through without any debt, which also helped me.
It appears that you are brushing off this fortunate circumstance as if it didn’t impact you. I don’t know your life story, but having your parents pay for your education does actually have a major impact. For one, you don’t have to worry if you can afford to go, and then you don’t have to worry about paying off the debt after you finish. There are lots of younger individuals who work for me that can’t even begin to think about buying a house because they have to pay down student loans, and this is in Canada, where student debt is much smaller.
As for the article, what is really missing in this article is that you really need a far above average income to get anywhere near these levels. Nothing in this list states that your income needs to be in the top 10%, but unless you have some sort of financial windfall then you can have every attribute listed, and never come close.You also need to be lucky enough to avoid a whole range of potential issues, such as losing your job for an extended period of time, divorce, and disability.
I’m not brushing it off at all – on the contrary I stated otherwise in my first reply.
It’s important to note that I’m also doing the same for both my kids so, very roughly speaking, it’s a wash in my mind. I.e. either I paid my own way and it takes longer for me to build wealth but my kids are on their own – OR – my parents helped and I built wealth faster but I’m paying the current tuition rates for two kids using some of that wealth. Somewhere, in the end, it all evens out.
Clearly everyone’s situation is different. I suppose I have been lucky in many respects – but luck and destiny are somewhat guided by our own actions.
Well, ’nuff said from me. Sorry if I offended anyone.
The assumption made here with point number 1: “Someone who went to college and believes grades and a good work ethic do matter.” is that this person will have a decent paying job and will live within his or her means.
I also live in Canada and are in the same age bracket (I’m 42) and would consider myself to fit the bill on both counts.
I agree that the financial challenges of today’s youth is much different to ours but the principles remain the same, ie, pay off your debt agressively, save up for a small downpayment on an affordable place, build equity and look to upgrade on your home and put away a bit into savings. That’s the template I used and I’ve also spent about 10 years now essentially not changing my spending habits with my additional income and using it to increase my mortgage payments, savings and investments instead – that equates to nearly $200,000 of additional pre-tax revenue over those 10 years, assuming a 5% yearly salary increase (which is actually quite conservative in your late 20’s and 30’s). I’ve been fortunate to buy in a strong real estate market and have decent returns on my savings and investments but even so, an “above average person” can achieve can achieve these goals with the right approach. I’m a 42 year old engineer, working a 9 to 5 job and have just passed the $1,000,000 mark in net worth with this approach.
Ok. Good for you and your parents. What’s your point?
I fail to see how this invalidates John N. Chicago’s comment or is even a direct reply to it.
On the other hand, author did explicitly list having nearly zero debt as one of prerequisites, so John’s comment would be stupid for that reason.
How do you modify your real estate worth over time? For example, I bought my house and have it on my books for $220K. The government taxes it like its worth $238K. Sites like Zillow estimate $260K. Should I keep it on my books at $220K until I sell it? I’d rather be conservative with my net worth, but I’m trying to track to be above average and appear a little behind.
Using comparable market data is the most accurate way of determining what your house is worth; that is, if comparable homes are going for $180/sq. ft., and your home is 2000 sq. ft., then the market value is $360,000. I’ve found Zillow to be very unreliable in determining market value.
I would establish a relationship with a local realtor who will periodically give you comparable market data.
It’s always a good idea to be a little bit conservative when calculating your net worth. When it comes to my real estate investments, I like to factor in the expenses I would have to pay, should I have to sell the property today. And yes, that includes realtor fees. Why do that? It gives you incredible peace of mind to know that your net worth is the amount of money you would POCKET at the end of the day, should you so choose. Also, it trains you to look at the right number, which is what you will end up with at the end of the day.
Cheers,
KP
To be really conservative, just focus on your liquid net worth not factoring in the value of your home equity at all.
I agree. I exclude residence and all personal property.
I agree. I think the after-tax, after-fees number is better, for real estate, retirement savings, etc.
I think it is interesting how you calculated the post tax/pre tax savings without reallocating the funds to the home equity when the person turns 30. If said person purchased a house at 27, they would’ve likely put a portion of their savings down to pay on it. Part of this would contribute to the equity, making your average by 30 low in home equity. The other part would be lost in the nasty world of closing costs, which may be significant depending on the state. If we estimate that the house did not lose value and they paid 20% down to avoid PMI because above average people are finance savvy. If they bought a house for $250,000, they would need more money than what they would have in their post-tax savings. This would mean that they would have to burrow from their 401k and that would throw off all of your calculations because the quantity of money you are calculating wouldn’t be earning 5% per year, and a portion of the person’s savings would be initially sucked into the blackhole that is closing costs. This blackhole may be very small or very large depending on the location of the house, but it is still initially a setback until equity accumulates in the property and absorbs the initial investment.
I wonder if the author is actually a home-owner…..Did you ever see the movie “The Money Pit?” The cost of upkeep can be considerable…I frankly don’t see your estimated average net worth at age 65 of nearly 3 million. You’re playing with funny money under the idealest of circumstances with no allowance for emergency, catastrophe, divorce, child support, hurricanes, etc…all part of the real fabric of life. Wishful thinking but way off-base in my book.
I think you are missing the whole point – yes, stuff happens, but with the proper planning and saving habits you CAN get there – I’m only 50 but I’m above the curve shown in the article. The article should be inspiration for you – i.e. set some benchmarks to strive for…
Lockon, I agree with your point, the framework of the article is aspirational. Practically speaking, if you took the net worth by age proposed in the article across the broad population, I would guess the high end net worth figures of the “above average” net worth are probably in the top 10% to 20% (so the above average of the above average), but again anyone reading these article is likely trying to improve their financial position more than just trying to be in the 51% of net worth.
The post is aspirational for the majority. And I’d love the readers of Financial Samurai to reach financial independence sooner, rather than later.
See:
The Top 1% Net Worth Levels By Age Group
The Top 1% Income Levels By Age Group
You claim though that these are the averages. Between student loans, mortgages, and all of the other debts people accumulate, this is definitely not the average… this may be what we should strive for, but these are not averages.
I’m sorry if my post title was not clear. These are for above average people. I will bold and we emphasize this point even more in the post be on the several mentions of above average. Thank you for reading.
Home ownership is so expensive with property taxes, mortgages, remodeling, buying/selling fees, and other upkeep. I bought a house at $1.6M and sold it for $2.4M 3 years later. Despite that it grew 50% in value, I ended up losing over 65% of the profit to the aforementioned costs.
My point is, it’s very easy to overestimate the value of a house by forgetting how expensive it is to maintain one.
You still came out ahead unless I’m reading your comment wrong… so it comes down to making about $28,000 in three years (not to mention the tax benefit) vs loosing 36*… hmmm… no brainer really. What am I missing?
($280K, not $28K)
Oh, you’re not missing anything. I was simply agreeing with you on closing costs with my own anecdote.
It was an excellent profit, and I don’t have any complaints about the overall sale.
I just wanted to point out that people often forget about the fees of buying & selling houses. They hear that housing prices rise 30-50% and expect to make that much profit. In reality, costs could easily reduce that profit to 15-20%.
Fact! Houses imho are not investments. Too much carrying costs!
The way a house makes sense to me is it must be mortgage free and as small as you can comfortably live in bc taxes/utilities/maitnance stay forever! I am fortunate I paid off my house in 5 years. (Side note grew up poor and received no financial help) It is a very modest 1800 sf ranch worth $360k my family of 4 reside. My taxes/ins/maintenance/utilities are about 800/mo. I am 35 with a net worth of 860k and debt free. I feel one of the main reasons I have become self made is buying a nice enough home that I could pay off quickly. I could have gone for the million dollar beauty but I would be paying on that thing another 25 yrs with higher taxes/ins/maitnance/utilities. I am convinced if I bought that million dollar house my net worth be far less than it is now.
I am a sportscar enthusiast so if I was a waterpaiting enthusiast I probably would be close to a millionaire by now but you can’t win them all. Got to enjoy life also.
I agree, but like most things there are two sides to this. I own two houses, one worth about 400k that I rent out for $1700/month+utilities. It is fully paid off. I view this as a good investment.
I did purchase the million dollar beauty (well, not quite – it was only worth 500k a few years ago, but is now about 1M with the massive property increases we’ve seen in Ontario). Mortgage free is nice, but leverage also allows for much larger profits, even accounting for carrying costs.
No doubt rental properties have their upsides.
Unfortunately, I am pathetic w risk.
Of course, even a renter is subject to the financial “money pit” which is included in the monthly rent! The landlord just packs maintenance, capital, tax, insurance, etc. costs into the monthly payment. Like death, there is just no way to avoid them.
The rent one pays on an apartment is based on the rental market that is based on supply and demand. Anyone that has owned rental property, and suddenly had to replace expensive systems like plumbing, the roof, or anything else like that knows this, you can wish you could just tack that cost onto the rent, but raising the rent beyond market would just leave it empty for a long time, so you eat the cost and hope the market will go up the next few years.
However, a savvy landlord will write into any lease agreement that each year the rents will increase. It’s just good business practice, and if a tenant decides to stay and renew, maybe they get a break and only have a 2.5% increase instead of a 5% increase (less hassle for the landlord, etc), but the capital expenditures will be recaptured by the landlord one way or the other.
I also had a landlord that gave me an overall cut in the rent of 10% per month, but I was responsible for the maintenance items. Fortunately for me, nothing major broke down (we did replace the washer, but went with a good quality used one) like the furnace, and it excluded major catastrophe in case a hailstorm took out a roof, but you can bet he appreciated not getting phone calls when the disposer needed servicing, etc. There are ways to structure rentals, but in the end, Sam is right: rent is -100% with your money, whereas owning, even with all of its expenses, is still adding to the overall net worth over the course of time. Of course, unless and until you SELL it, it’s always been considered moot, but I do like the concept of “future rent saved” by owning outright.
I’ve been renting for over 12 years since graduating college and my rent on day one was a little over $1000 per month. Today, after 12 years, it is $750 a month. If I had bought a house even at the 2012 low, my total net worth would be at least $100,000 less than it is today. The reason for this discrepancy is that I’ve invested extremely well with money that would have been tied up in home equity and higher monthly costs of ownership. The difference in cost over time compounds. My rent has not increased in over 5 years. I rent to get richer. I love not having to pay for broken things and I love not paying high utilities and property taxes. I love doing zero maintenance.
Can you share what type of living arrangement you’re getting for $750 a month? I’m glad renting has worked out for you. When I was 25, I told myself I no longer wanted to rent b/c I was renting a dark one bedroom apartment with noisy neighbors upstairs. But I also didn’t want to pay more than $2,000 a month in rent to rent something nicer, so I finally bought a week after my 26th birthday in SF. It’s turned out OK, and the property is now paid off and is a rental property.
The kicker is that not only has it gone up in value from $580,500 – ~$1.2M, the rent has also increased from $2,200 to $4,200 today. The power of inflation alone has been strong. It was the easiest 10 bagger investment ever since I put about $120,000 down at the time.
Related: Buy Real Estate As Young As You Possibly Can
For $750 per month, I get a decent 1 bedroom apartment in a safe neighborhood near work which is more than enough for me. I don’t care about luxury and that’s why I have the net worth that I have today. Cost of living is the number one variable that determines how much you can save for retirement. Low cost always beats high cost. Betting on high cost housing to give you high returns is a big risk. I have done far better in the stock market and will continue to do better with stocks. I’ve tracked home prices in areas that I would have considered buying, and the truth is that home values over the long run do not return anywhere near the S&P 500 index. If I raised my standard of living, I would have a much lower net worth today. The key to early retirement is not caring about what other people think of you when you live like a student with no money. A frugal person like myself lives like the poor and is happy with the simple lifestyle. If you want to build wealth and retire early, don’t live a middle class lifestyle, and don’t care what other people think. That’s the only way to make a difference. I am different and I don’t care what others think because I know that’s the only way that I can retire very early.
If possible, instead of renting one could get a mortgage and buy a house.
So the monthly rent payments would be basically like paying off your mortgage payments. The only difference is that you’ll own the house when you’re done paying off the mortgage.
If not, you’ll be renting for the rest of your life and never own the place you live in.
MG Summer -I could not disagree with you more. People are more interested in buying things to impress the people who they don’t like vs. save like a gazelle for retirement. If you have no pension and you are 60 you NEED a couple million to survive and do things for 25-30 years. Also you mentioned plan for catastrophe???? do you not have insurance healthcare, home, auto? Do you live in a third world country or a flood plane where your going to get wiped out by the next Katrina. Did you vote for Hillary? and by the way who plans for divorce, and calls this fabric of life?
The advice here is sound. My wife and I, now in our 70s, are right on target. We were fortunate to not have any of the catastrophes you mentioned, but we did pay for the college educations and weddings of our three children.
We bought a house within six months of getting married and didn’t start saving until my wife returned to work after our third child started school; then bought a bigger house and plowed as much as we could into our 401Ks and, later, IRAs.
After we retired (me at 52, she at 49), and reached 59.5, we transferred portions of our 401Ks to Roth IRAs to get a tax break for our children when the money goes to them. (Many years ago, I told my children that, based on our projected savings, they would each inherit a million dollars. Basically, by doing what this site advises, I was right, so far.)
Sam, it would be cool to elaborate further in this article with a detailed breakdown of net worth detailing asset allocation for each investment category, pre-tax, post-tax and real estate equity.
I think it would spark an interesting conversation regarding the types and percentage of assets to hold (stocks, bonds, CDs, p2p, primary residence, rental, yada yada) for each investment category because each category has unique tax implications.
Based off of your previous postings, I gather you roughly recommend a high level allocation of 30% fixed income (CDs/bonds), 30% market, 30-40% Real Estate across net worth. Which type of assets maximize returns pre-tax vs post-tax though? For example, I’ve read that p2p lending is better suited for an IRA.
Thanks for all you do and keep up the great work!
Have you checked out: Recommended Net Worth Allocation By Age And Work Experience?
Each person is different, but my post provides some good frameworks for different types of people.
Yes I previously reviewed the article and found it very informative. I did not see a breakdown of investments in terms of pre-tax / post-tax though. Do you have a strategy that targets certain types of investments for pre and post-tax accounts?
UPDATE:
FREEDOM 54!!
I have just calculated my lifetime gross income from early December, 1986 until my 54th birthday (Feb.5, 2016). It works out to be exactly $11,250 on an annual basis.
MY NEXT GOAL: TWO gross incomes of $18,250 or better (one is job and the other is investment income off of about $365,000).
That is right-100 dollars a day for every day that passes. I am definitely happy with that.
Greetings Sam. Excellent article along with so many real stories! I came across your website while research on what to do with my finances. It has become a bit more confusing reading so many personal experiences so I decided to directly as you and your audience to hear your thoughts.
Here is my story, as short as possible.
I am a married dude (15 years) just turned 40. My wife is 38 we have two children, one in school the other one in daycare. We both work full-time but I also do freelance work on the side. We jointly make $117k per year on full-time salary and perhaps $8K-$15K in freelance work.
I have perhaps $2K in 401K (long story why I did not do it). My wife has no 401K but has aside around $50K in pension that she can cash, no penalty if she leaves the company.
We have 3 “good debts”. Our mortgage for the house we live, and two rentals. 1st rental currently own $63K, property is valued (Zillow) at $130K. After expenses it leaves us around $350 cash flow. Second rental we owe $75K and worth (Zillow) $132K. In our primary home we owe $171K and worth about $281K. These properties are finance below the 5% mark and at 30 years fixed.
We have two bad debts. One auto finance still owe $6K and $25K on a HELOC on our primary.
In cash we have $80K, $57K are savings and the rest are savings for emergencies such as problems with the properties, etc.
SO HERE IS MY DILEMMA:
For the past couple of years, the savings have been stuck there not producing money just an insult percentage the produces perhaps $15 dollars per year. So I decide to buy another property. But have been a few months now and no good deal comes across, I am trying to find properties that gives me some cash flow so I can save that money for emergencies. But due to my limitations, I can only afford condos, the issue is that these condos is that HOA starts in the $300 a month.
So, I am considering the idea of taking that savings of $60K and pay off my rental of $60K. From my point of view (probably ignorant of many variables) is that with this property paid off I have one less thing to worry about, use the cash flow to reduce all current small debts, and once that is covered, I can save again and get my $60K back in the next 10 years. I can also consider use that income to pay off sooner the other properties.
The only downside I see, is that I will no longer have a cash cushion for a big emergency (albeit the money is there), I won’t have the power to purchase another property perhaps for the next 5 years or more, tax on generate income would higher (right now I can deduct interest, taxes, and other expenses basically payed by the renter).
BUT there are many people that suggest it is better to get another property for several reasons (I do not recall one now).
So here is my question: Would you or any of of you, would recommend (or not) (and why) to use the cash in the savings to pay off the mortgage on that property.
Apologies for the long post and thank you in advanced for the time to read and answer.
Chuck
Chuck,
Paying off my rental properties was a key strategy to my overall investing model; but then again, I’m 16-years older than you. Father Time has allowed me to buy many rental properties over the past 16-years, which has produced a generous amount of passive income. My strategy was to buy properties that produced X amount of cash flow and a minimum of 8-10% equity bump/year. REO’s have certainly been a contributing factor to my overall strategy. Now, I’m a firm believer in paying off my rental property mortgages, but under different circumstances – yours for example – it may make sense to save cash flow and keep buying properties to build up your reserves. I would, however, stay away from condos like the plague.
I live in a beach community with thousands of cheap “beach front” condos with astronomical HOA/maintenance fees. They generally don’t fit into a “buy and hold” strategy due to a number of factors. Nevertheless, you are asking all the right questions.
Good luck!!
Randy E.
Hello Randy. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I am just a regular guy trying to make the best out of the circumstances. Yes, condos are not a good deal in my particular case, but single family homes at the price range I can afford require at least 10K repairs. I could do it, but then my cash reserve will be very low and with four properties I increase my risk of a problem in the event of a big repair, etc.
That is why I am considering not purchasing another property, but at the same time, it bothers me to have that cash in the bank that is not doing anything for me.
My thoughts are that if I pay off the loan on a rental, I would have close to $1K per month of cash flow. With that cash flow, I start a snow ball and pay off my debts (mainly auto loan $6K and a HELOC $25K) once this is paid off, I can save again to reach the $60K I put on it, which will take about 6-7 years.
They way I see it my money is still there in the value of the property but producing something for me. The downside will be my cash in bank will be low, below the $20K mark, but I think I can keep the HELOC open in case I need to use quick money for emergency.
To me, a simple mortal, this sounds like a good plan but then again, I am not a financial savvy person.
Does this sound like a reasonable plan?
We are in a deflationery recession. The only play right now is to hoard cash. Once the derivative bubble pops, the world market will come crashing down. It is then that you will be able to use your cash to buy properties 4-5 times what you can buy now
I’m all for aggressively increasing cash savings as well. The good times/easy money is over. Save your money folks for better opportunities ahead!
Related:
Have An Investing Game Plan To Accumulate More Wealth
I’ve been in real estate for the last 4 years. But, I see big opportunities in oil over the next few years. I think real estate is doing well largely due to investors. It was easy for everyone to get a loan before the real estate market crashed. I see their being opportunities in real estate but not as big as there were a few years ago because lending was different then than today. If oil recovers to $52 over the next 5 years, that’s a 10% annualized return. Just like Real Estate in 2007-2009, we witnessed a big drop. Supply and demand. Now that oil was over $100/barrel when everyone could produce and dropped to $36/barrel. Or recovers to $72/barrel over the next decade. Maybe a possibility.
I would be curious to know what your thoughts are Financial Samurai?
Hard work, taking risk, and a bit of luck helped me where I am today: 49 Year old, stay at home mom, 2 young kids and lived in US and Asia. Net Worth 3.7 mn
Hark work:
Worked hard in school: average high school student and went to average university and had average jobs. My first job in 1990 paid me approx. US35k/ Year in California….but you know what I got laid off within the year and this took a huge blow to my confidence to life and what I thought of corporate life. However, It was also a blessed wake up call. I never want to be at the mercy of a corporation and person…at 22 I realized that I needed to be financially free in due course. Spent 5 years in California and probably save ~20k over the years. But I was not happy with my actuarial job.
Took Risk:
1994 quit the corporate job, life in SFO and went to China to teach English. My salary in China was about USD75/ month (yes USD75). Why did I go off the rails and do something totally different…? Because I had a gut feeling that China would be (in mid 1990’s) eventually an economic powerhouse. And I also believed that Asia economies was the place to be…I bet my career and growth on this premise. Fast forward I’ve now been in Asia for 21 years, where I’ve amassed most of my wealth. 2 houses in Shanghai, 1 house in Singapore = USD2.5 mn; the rest is then in mutual funds, stsocks. It’s been a bumpy ride – I’ve been fired, girlfriend in HOng Kong borrowed USD50k and we split..it took a while for her to repay me back, started a business and sold it but didn’t get rich. My NW changed when I got married at 38 (it was 2002 my NW was about USD300k) , bought houses in Shanghai…then China currency and housing went on an unstoppable uptrend.
Luck – it’s whatever card your dealt in life. And what God has planned for you.
End game – USD5 mn..then call it quits from corporate life. And do something I want…e.g. farmer, vineyard, orchard farm…something that is not having me locked to my desk and it needs to be the outdoors.
Hey all. I am 33 with a company that does about 22 million in gross sales per year and 2.3 in investments. Own 3 cars and 2 motorcycles outright and my home worth about 400k. I feel as if I’m doing ok but I think sometimes that I should pull some out of investments. By made me 80k last year alone but maybe that was luck?? I live frugally don’t need anything really and just be me. I work hard and treat my people right. I M engaged and happy and love my life but still want or feel like I’m not doing it all right. People may think this or that but I know I work hard and try my best. That’s what matters right ? Forget the “jones” family and be yourself. I don’t care what others think although the I have tact and diplomacy to get through the corporate fundraisers and whatnot. How can I make more money. I just don’t wanna worry about it ever again as it is only a tool to enslave us all and I want to be free. We all deserve to be free. So how to achieve that?
Interesting data. Here’s a generalization for you. There are 3 types of people:
1. The Above average person (you described)
2. The opposite of that person (average or below)
3. The extraordinary person (the Steve Jobs, Howard Hughes, Richard Bransons of the world)
I’m an inbetweener, in between 2 and 3 above. I came here to look at the data which is interesting. Most of the advice seems good generally speaking. But, I waver a bit from your “above average” norm: I quit college/never finished my degree. I don’t plan to ever retire though I could in a few years. Ditched the 401k 10 years ago (it’s not worth my time). I also have no friends. Few mentors. Most of my acquaintances are similar folks and all are pretty much the “Above Average” you describe here because of the company I work for / city I live in, these are my acquaintances. Most all of them find me: a) Intimidating b) a prick c) out of touch 1%-er d) Someone they can take advantage of or e) a fake.
I’m having a very difficult time the last few years continuing on. I don’t relate to anyone or find mentors other than people I read about who are out of my reach. I sit quietly most of the time or just avoid social events. I stopped offering input. No one is interested or understands any of my advice / thinks i’m insane. I’m becoming a hermit. People vehemently disagree with me look at me like I’m from mars or cling to me in some needy / take advantage or even fix-me way. Many hate me, because they view me as a 1%-er (though i’m close, but not quite), including my boss who often wonders why I even work here (my day job is a safety net to me). So, what advice do you have for me? Is it worth trying to be extraordinary or does it just make me a dick? When history’s business moguls are asked these questions, they pretty much all say it was worth it. I’m finding it difficult because I’m not rich enough yet for any of these people to become my close friends but I’m also becoming someone that the “above average” person can’t relate to either. I’m having a difficult time managing the onslaught of would-be “friends” who aren’t friend material, but just using me in some way. I don’t know what I’m asking for exactly with this post. What advice do you have for me I guess? Maybe this is the wrong place to ask…
“Having no friends” is a concern. You need friends to get ahead in society. Maybe don’t focus on the finances, but focus on better communication skills. A great communicator trumps a brilliant mind in my book.
Sounds like you are being separated from the world, but you keep trying to follow the world. Change your focus and it will change your heart, your life, and fill that empty void you keep chasing. You will not find it in money. You will not find it in friends. You will not find it in material things. You will not find it in the frivolous things of this world. There is one place to place your trust and the rest will fall into line.
Ah, the age-old question: Can money buy happiness? Probably the wrong blog for this type of question, but what the heck. The relationship between what we earn and how we feel is obviously unique to each person, but I’ve known a lot of happy, successful and optimistic people in my life. They all seem to have the following in common:
1. They focus on others;
2. They are productive;
3. They realize happiness is found from within;
4. They have a “meaningful” circle of friends;
5. They have a positive outlook on life; and,
6. They have a content mind.
I’m sure there are many others, but these are top in my mind. I follow this blog to discover ways to build wealth and “security” for my family, which is a contributing factor to my overall happiness. Increased wealth doesn’t improve one’s mental health, that comes from a variety of other areas (e.g., confidence, self-esteem, and being able to manage day-to-day life.).
Very well said. Hear, hear!!!
Agree with what Sam said. Try to avoid friendship as being something one needs to be “..rich enough” for. From the postings on this site, we see a variety of motivations for earning more and managing wealth well (family, retirement security, charitable causes, etc.). Money is just a tool, and it’s fun to learn more about it – especially when it is so incredibly easy mis-manage.
You seem very articulate and intelligent, and there are probably hundreds of people and causes that you could have a great positive impact on. For example, visit a local school for special-needs kids and just volunteer to look at their books. A few hours of your time would probably bring huge efficiencies and help them help others for years to come … just one example of an wonderful thing you could do.
If you do, please post back in a few months and share with the blog on how it went.
(Sam’s note: See “It’s OK To Love Money“)
UPDATE:
I am proud to say that after just three months on the job, I am now making $13.50 an hour (up from 13) as a janitor.
I believe that I am in a very strange business (I was let go about 15 months ago as a janitor and yet, I tried harder there than I do now).
The key for me: Pick a service provider that can match your skills appropriately.
I shall probably be a solid millionaire by age 65 (11.5 years from now) and yet, never make more than 19 thousand for one year’s work.
I don’t understand what you mean by a 20% down payment giving a 10-15% return per year. Can you explain that more?
Sure. A 2-3% annual return on housing = 10 – 15% return on your cash if you only put 20% down.
e.g. $200,000 down on $1,000,000 place. Appreciates by 3% to $1,030,000. $30,000 / $200,000 = 15%.
Not bad right?
Further reading:
Real Estate Or Stocks: Depends On How Lucky You Are
Should I Buy Property In A Rising Interest Rate Environment?
Thanks for the help!
Does it matter too much how the wealth is allocated? I am 34 and have $210K in a pre-tax 401k, $40K present-day lump-sum value of pre-tax pension, $110K in a Roth IRA, and $300K in real estate equity. I only have $15K liquid in a bank though and owe about $30k in car and student loans.
So I guess that makes my total: $250K pre-tax savings, $95K after-tax savings, and $300K real estate equity. How much should I be trying to restructure this or do the proportions not matter too much?
I think REO is in a state of analysis paralysis; that is, “the state of over-analyzing (or over-thinking) a situation so that a decision or action is never taken, in effect paralyzing the outcome.” I am one of those infamous Boomers he is referring to in his post. I have profited handsomely in real estate between 1995 and today; granted, I had to sell everything in 2005 and sit on the fence for three years, but I started buying again once the market bottomed out.
There are, admittedly, deep structural challenges with the US economy that will need to be addressed in the next election cycle; however, after factoring in one’s age and the time remaining before assuming room temperature, it is imperative that “some risk” be taken in order to fund a comfortable retirement. I have been buying REO’s in a beach community for the past three years. They all have a positive cash flow and have appreciated 10 percent/year. A rising tide will certainly float all boats, but you have to wade in during low tide to enjoy the benefits that high tide has to offer.
I do wonder whether REO took advantage of the downturn and bought any assets.
Check this article out: A Massive Generational Wealth Transfer Is Why Everything Will Be OK
Well said Randy E. I, too, am one of those Boomer’s and have invested heavily in RE (20 rentals at present) for over 30 yrs. The statement that we will flood the market when we all sell our homes is misguided. Studies show that the vast majority of people “age in place” and I don’t see builder’s going crazy with spec building any time soon. Our personal residences (3) will be left to our son. He may sell one or two – but boomer sales won’t flood anything imo. The population continues to grow and I don’t see that reversing. People either rent or own – both of which requires a “home” exist.
As to the stock market comments, if the P/E ratios make sense people will continue to invest. To suggest that people will pull market-changing amounts out is far-fetched.
I fully agree with your “educated risk” investment attitude and discussion of analysis-paralysis. Those that blame external factors (fear, basically) for their financial short-comings are simply making excuses for their poor financial decisions and lack of wealth.
The #s above are a nice starting place, thanks for putting them up….But let’s do some real thinking….about the Boomers: the richest generation ever. They have driven RE and stock prices up to high levels starting about 1981. Now, these Boomers will retire. Know what happens then? Prob. the biggest stock market and RE crash since 1929.
Now, no one knows WHEN that day will be. But according to statistics, it should be fairly soon. Think not? Hmmm, look at it this way: who will BUY the RE if the Boomers start listing their 2 or 3 homes? Who will BUY all these stocks? Gen X? Gen Y? These 2 don’t have the money or the numbers to do so.
So, be wary about anyone touting the returns of the stock market or how good an investment RE is. They WERE good, indeed they WERE. But will they be in the immediate future? A cursory glance at the stats foresees some dark clouds heading this way….
Biggest stock market crash in our lifetimes already happened. Were you still in school in 2008-2010 or do you not remember?
I’d probably agree with REO to a degree since RE and the stock market are both being propped up by these ridiculouly low interest rates, and yes, I’m aware of the big bust that already took place.
However, I think that since we already went through a big bust so recently, the government is doing and will continue to do whatever needed to prevent it from happening again…
They will try to inflate away the national debt and this will do it’s part, including some form of wage inflation eventually.
I think one thing that is missing from the article is the question of where you plan to spend your retirement years. I goofed off in college the first time through and dropped out with about 80 credit hours. I went back after 15 years in 2005 and at the time was making about 33k per year. But I had a 10% 401k allocation and 9% company match and profit sharing during the years I was making the lower salary. I had bought a house in 2003 with inheritance money, so I had what ultimately ended up being $185k in equity when I sold it and bought a new one this fall. I took part of the equity for remodel and the value of the house rose about the same as what I spent on remodel (value add remodel like hardwood floors and kitchen upgrades).
So at age 45 I find I am worth about $500k and my only debt is a 4.25% mortgage that I already have about 50% equity in a $308k house.
What matters most here though, is it’s in Texas. That same 308k house transported from north dallas to San Francisco would be $1.5 million. Cost of living here is quite low compared to California. There is no state tax at all either. So if I retire on $3million (which is a likely target for me) that to achieve a standard of living in SF similar to Dallas at $3 million you will need somewhat more money saved up. $3 million in Oklahoma where I am from likewise would get a standard there somewhat like $4 million here.
So, when deciding whether your nestegg will meet demand, consider where you plan to retire. (This is why a lot of Texas retirees move to Mexico. For that $3 million there, you get a standard of living comparable to $6 million in north dallas)
I don’t think it’s missing anything.
I think the point of the article is just to let you know where you may stand financially (in terms of net-worth) when compared to your peers, if you are an ‘above-average’ person as defined by the author..
One can make all kinds of arguments as to who is and isn’t above average, but this author has set out his definition, and given some assumptions to go along with it.
A 45 year old professional with a decent job, who had a bit of help from the parents, but not ‘too much’, who made wise investment decisions, could theoretically have earned and saved $X in X amount of years…
People have different goals in life.
They live in different places and they pursue all kinds of different paths for a variety of reasons. I consider this article a sort of ‘keeping up with the Joneses’ cheat sheet to give an idea of the likely net worth of buddies who may have grown up, gone to college together, etc who are in a similiar situations…
Anyone can feel free to take anything into account that they like when comparing themselves to the standards in this article.
My hope is for everybody to be able to have the OPTION to spend their retirement years in the best places possible, irregardless of cost because they have enough wealth. That said, conducting geoarbitrage in retirement is a no brainer if folks are up for going on an adventure.
Check out these posts:
The Best States For Retirement
Living In An Expensive City Can Make You A Better, More Empathetic Person
UPDATE:
Due to my new job, my lifetime gross income from late 1986 to August 2015 (age 53.5) will be about $320,000 (about $11,130 per year).
If I am able to keep this job, between my investment income, my job and the occasional high paid music gig, I am virtually guaranteed 100 dollars a day + until retirement.
This is not too bad when you consider that I shall probably never hit the $20,000 mark for one year’s work EVER.
Sorry Folks.
I guess “EVER” is redundant here.
It could very well be that the $18,335 (2001) will be the highest amount I ever made for one year’s work.
Your charts are great. But I would love to know what other factors are taken into account.
Is your 401k and or the Post tax Cash, a straight up saving every year without taking into account a non- working or working part-time spouse and 2 or more children? Do you take into account 529 contributions for kids? Childcare costs are raising phenomenal.
What about how much equity you have in your home? Is that factored in?
I ask as I would like to know how behind we are:)
I have been inspired by your blog and I really enjoy reading your blog. It was definitely one of the blogs that made me want to start blogging myself!
I just made a Net Worth model in Excel and was hoping to share it with you. I have posted it on my website:
It gives a person a rough estimate of their net worth over time given multiple inputs. It would be interesting to see the results and forecast you have currently and what my model would spit out!
Have a good day,
Erik
Question: One thing the article does not explain. Should your savings in these columns reflect your post home purchase savings? My situation: 30 y/o, working corporate sales position. Graduated college 2008 and didn’t land job in my field until early 2010. Have been contributing around 8k annually to 401k plus company match and maxing out Roth contribution for 3 years. The 401k has about 65k right now. Have 50k savings right now and am looking to put a down payment on a home here in next 3 months. From this article, it sounds like I will be WAY behind once that savings drops to 10k after 40k DP on 200k home. Please share some thoughts here.
Jeff, you are free to include the equity in your home as savings. However, just know that the equity is completely illiquid and should not be counted upon.
Please read:
Should I Consider My Primary Residence As Part Of My Net Worth?
*Your* home’s net worth is — by definition — part of *your* net worth.
There’s no reason why you should not split your net worth spreadsheet into categories (house — or down payment savings, retirement assets, liquid, illiquid, etc).
Great website. I’m a 37 year old woman from the West who moved to SF two years ago. Net worth is $675K… bad grades in high school (1.9) and college (2.9)… worked throughout college (Econ), MBA… success is due to RE and decent jobs in banking/finance to keep it all afloat.. Bought first home at 23 or 24, bought four or five more… 401K is still only $40K because I always drain them for downpayments, but growing fast now at a rate of 30K or so per year. Doubled salary with the move, bought a condo, rent out extra bm.. adding net worth at a rate of 80K a year between equity, 401K, and expected appreciation of 1.5% on 2M in property. — nobody provided down payments, parents helped a little with school (maybe 20K total). RE is the way but it does take a certain willingness to suffer… e.g travel to a rental 30 miles away to pull a toilet at 10:30pm because you can’t yet afford a plumber ;) Also – I am a terrible saver – i never like to put money in an account just to sit there… always want to put it to use ASAP.
Interesting article. I am 29 and have been working for 3 years full time since grad school, and renting. It has definitely occurred to me how much wealth I would accumulate if I bought a house instead of renting. But according to calculators I used online, I don’t actually save or make any money considering my low rent, until after like 60 years. In some calculations I NEVER make more money in a buying scenario vs renting even if my rent increases with the market, because my rent is relatively low and my paper assets will grow not being tied up in my house.
Anyway this is all financial nerd math that we indulge in. What really matters to me is becoming financially independent so I can have the choice to live and work wherever I want, doing whatever I want. Buying a house seems to lock me into a place, and currently the place I’m at is nice but I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for my work, which also isn’t bad but I would like the freedom of moving to, say, Hawaii if I wanted to. So for now I’m renting and building paper assets. Especially since I plan to be FI in 5 years, 4 if I’m lucky and 6 worst case scenario. Then I want to live in other countries and stuff while I continue to build my business and maybe get back into research in a University. Would be a shame to me, personally and not necessarily for anyone else, to just live in the US my whole life.
Update:
I just landed a 13 dollar an hour janitorial gig and I am ecstatic!!
If I can keep it, may annual average salary will jump from 11 thousand a year to 15 thousand a year.
This wage is still about 55% the average wage in Ontario BUT I definitely do not mind.
Congrats! Keep networking with the higher ups and show the world what you can do!
This is a great article, and definitely makes me breathe a sigh of relief as I feel that I’m on track.
One question – how do you determine what networth should be for a couple? Are the charts here assuming both parties in a couple have this month networth (so the actual amount in a married couple for savings should be double) – or does this change for married couples? At 32, I have about $350k saved but my future husband has maybe about $100k. I worry that we won’t have enough to retire.
But why worry though? $350,000 + $100,000 = $450,000 once you get married. Are you worried because you worry about your abilities to make money and support the two of you? If so, welcome to what a lot of guys go through all the time ie it’s normal!
Okay, so I turned 45 not too long ago, have over $300k in the bank, my home is paid off, no debt of any kind and I’m a civil servant. Net work is about $500k. Being a civil servant, I’ll receive a pension when I retire, have some years to go, my thought is this. Of my savings, I’m only investing $50k. I’m using my father’s finances as a model, he was also a civil servant and did NOT have a 401B, invested in mutual funds here and there and he did very well/didn’t even need to rely on investments due to his state pension. I sometimes wonder if it’s truly necessary for me to invest in a 401B/IRA when following my current model I typically save about $100k every two years at this point in my life. Again, I’m 45 now, thoughts?
You are laughing.
I think that most of the the top 1% of all income earners cannot sock away 50 grand a year.
As great as your accomplishment is, I think that mine is greater:
1) My lifetime gross income from December 1986 to August 2015 (age 53.5) will be about $316,000 (about $11,000 a year).
2) 73 % of my $500,000 net worth is in investments.
3) I am expecting a 7.5%(+) long term return from my equities and a 2.5%(+) long term return from my bonds and cash (a 5% average).
4) I shall make $18,250+ (that is 50 dollars a day plus) a year (which represents 166% of my average annual salary) even if I do not work.
Maybe not enough to retire BUT a good cushion in bad times.
I’m laughing?
I wasn’t trying to ‘one-up’ nor was I inviting a ‘one-up’, what would have been actually constructive would be someone’s thoughts on whether investing further or not
I believe that the benefit of rolling over your 401B to an IRA is that you will get more investing options.
The fees with an IRA are also lower than what your 401B will charge you after you leave your job PLUS you do not pay taxes when you roll over.
My conclusion: It is not necessary but still better if you invest in a 401B IRA.
Thank you, I’ll check into that
Here’s my story…
I went to a 4 year college back in 99-03, cost $38k including room/board.
I never finished…I was about 12 credits short, but since I changed majors I would have likely needed a full year to finish…even if I passed all my classes, but the material was just too difficult.
I moved out of college with $10k in loans and $12k in the bank (I was working when I went to college.) If I could have redid things, I would have maxed out all my loans (3.125% interest instead of the 5% mortgage)
I put $10k down on a $82k house when I was 22. I was working a part time job making $8.68/hr with a lot of overtime. Between 22 and 28 I was making between $22k and $28k a year. The house needed about $18k worth of repairs in the first 10 years and time were tough, but I put any extra money towards the mortgage. I started getting better selling things online and with my regular job and online my best year was about $65k.
I paid the house off before I was 31 and the student loans shortly after. I lost my full time job due to a downsizing and sell online full time now. Depending on how much work I put into it, I can make $30-50k a year, but I would like to take it a little easier now.
Right now I’m 34 I have a fully paid off house worth about $110k, 2 cars for a total of about $8k, and about $115k in bank accounts and investments, and no debt. (4 years ago I owed about $15k on the house, 3k student loan, had one $2k car and maybe 10k in the bank.)
Having no debt makes money build up fast, (look at how much changed in the last 4 years) people say you should invest before paying, but in my situation, not having to worry about money sure freed up the opportunity to take more chances and not be tied down to a 40hr a week job.
so what kinds of things do you sell online man? you seem like you have your shit together.
Outstanding..!
Wasn’t the premise of marriage based on for better or for worse? As a single parent who is above average, never been married, and still able to retire at 35, why wouldn’t your retirement be better being married? You have the extra income of your spouse and not everyone has the financial genius that got us where we are today. Some people love to spend and others love to save. Now I wouldn’t get married without a prenup but that’s because I have a child from a previous relationship and a business with whom I have partners. Therefore, in my case, combining finances would not be the best route for me. It also sounds like you are a bit resentful of your spouse.
What happens when you are within range of your ‘age’ guide for overall wealth accumulation but married someone who was the opposite of you? I’m a 40 year old woman that has *never* made more than 200k in any year (and has made less than that the last few years as I had a baby and surprise, corporate America doesn’t love that). My overall wealth combining 401k, IRAs and savings is close to 600k. But my spouse started late and though he made more than me at certain points, he’s got maybe 1/3 of what I have. I love him but get so annoyed at his previous irresponsibility. Mostly I’m annoyed because though he’s slowly started to ‘get it’ (thanks to me) he’s constantly breaking his arm patting himself on the back for having what little he has now (he thinks it’s a lot because he’s used to pissing away every single dime he had before he met me). I just feel like I did everything ‘right’ and i’m going to wind up retiring on a lower income/lifestyle than I planned for due to him.
Hmm, well, now that you’re married, it’s all about team work and combined finances! Progress is what matters most.
Have you seen this post? https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-average-net-worth-for-the-above-average-married-couple/
VERY good article, thanks. The whole bit about the taxes is exactly what we are going through right now. It’s so frustrating. Between corporate America dinging moms/married women and the gov’t taxing dual income families….it’s just depressing. I’ve worked hard for so long and sacrificed and it seems now to all just be for nought.
Why does corporate America owe anything to moms?
Sue, it sounds like you have been very responsible and you’ve had a strong career.
Your spouse probably needs more encouragement about saving, but at least he’s moving in the right direction. If you two work together, it seems like you have a great future as parents and likely have enough for a comfortable retirement.
You are young, and your savings have plenty of time to grow.
You can do it!
I just feel like I did everything ‘right’ and i’m going to wind up retiring on a lower income/lifestyle than I planned for due to him.
Well, why’d you marry him? Why’d you have children — they *really* hit you in the pocketbook! — with him?
Wow, sounds like some other issues that need to be worked out here. What happened to “…for richer or poorer” in marriage? Shit man, have a talk with your hubby and get your feelings out there for him to hear (not the message board people) or that divorce is going to cost you more than his ‘pissing money away’ ever will.
Glad your not my wife, my wife is broke but I don’t care, I’ll take care of her forever cause I love her.
:)
Hey Sue, no offense but it seems your problem at this point is not your finances (with a total of 800k for you and your husband at 40, you’re very well off), but your marriage. The fact that you’re with a person at age 40 and are blaming him for his “mistakes”, is a problem that *you* need to fix on your end. I would almost argue that it’s not your husband’s problem here, but yours. When you married that person, you accepted the good and the not so good in him.
Not everything is perfect in a marriage, but as Sam told you in a much more nice way than I just did, is that you should be looking at what happens next, as a team, rather than what happened before. What’s done is done, try to make things better, and lose the resentment, it’s not going to help your family/team.
Agree with this one…this sounds like you are having regrets over your shared values and habits post marriage and this is something you should have thought long and hard about before marriage. It’s like when you’re young and your better half is a jeans and a t-shirt guy and you keep hoping that he will grow into wearing a tux. You need to have eyes wide open of what kind of person you are committing to share your life with and that you will be ok with that over time. Can I get my guy to wear a tux today…outside of the wedding, I’ve never really tried…I always liked him him in jeans and knew what I was getting into. I also agree w/the comment samurai made that you can grow and change together – something like that…but if your man grew up with a sense of lack, or very was very poor, or who knows, you may not get him to where you are and need to be able to live with that or make a different choice while you still can.
That makes two of us. I am in the same boat where my wife has made bad financial decisions in her 20s due to her lack of financial wisdom and having un-supportive parents. She has student debt north of $40,000 and is now pregnant with our first child. I make almost 3 times her income, and as a result of the baby, she is dropping to part time and now I am taking on even more financial responsibilities. I am 32 and worth a quarter of your savings. I learned that in life, there is no mathematical 1 or 0, meaning you can’t get everything or lose everything. Wouldn’t it be nice if my spouse had the same income as mine and was as financially wise? Absolutely. But what if that extra wealth came with only half the genuine love and respect that my wife has for me? Will I be as happy as I am with her? One thing is sure, as poetic as this might sound coming from a scientist, not everything in life can be labeled with a price sticker
I’m 39 and my net worth is: 1.25M. All self made.
I am very impressed BUT could you elaborate (including revealing your lifetime gross income).
I bet that it is at least FIVE times my $315,000+.
i graduated from college with a bachelor degree in electrical engineer (gpa 3.5) by age 24 and owe $20g in student loan. I never pay back my loans. I decided to not use degree and become a manicurist at a nail salon. I worked 60 hrs a week making $60g a year. Now 4 years later, I’m 28 and I open a nail salon that cost me $30g and currently making $15g/month. I currently have $120g saved. I rent $700 a month. Any advice?
While I don’t doubt there is an important role in real estate in accumulation of wealth, I have a question about this article. When you wrote “the return on rent is always -100%” and “there is never a positive return on an asset after a month…” True statement. But how it relates to being a better way to accumulate wealth, shouldn’t you consider the relative return of assets used to invest in other areas? In other words, if I had 100K, when deciding on renting or buying, I would have to consider the return of the home (allowing for all the things you mentioned – tax breaks, etc) but you should also consider the return of the stock market (or any other asset you choose to use the money on instead of a home). Also, shouldn’t you take into account how much money you spend to invest in the home (ie the cost of the loan?) As a general rule, folks pay massive amounts on the lifetime of their loan –sometimes over the cost of the home itself, right?
My second question relates to the returns of real estate vs the return of the S&P 500. Historically, as you stated, home prices return around 2-3%. How does “putting down about 20%” make the 2-3% return of a home turn into 10-15% cash-on-cash basis? I totally am missing out on that math. If I plunk down more or less on a home, how does that increase the return? How much of an asset you own is independent of how much its value fluctuates, right?
Lastly, just like there are tax benefits of owning a home, there are many tax benefits related to various other investment vehicles. 401K’s, Roth IRAs, etc – all have great tax leverage that cannot be duplicated any other place. Homes also have many unknown costs – repairs, risk of depreciation or stagnation, etc.
Just a few thoughts of mine on how home ownership vs renting is far from an open and shut case. I’m a firm believer that renting until you’re able to pay almost full cash for a home is the best way to go, in order to avoid paying somebody interest. (unless of course, that interest rate is low enough that your money is best suited invested in the market where you can potentially get higher returns!) Which is my point exactly – this is a very complicated subject!
-G
You’re right, you should consider the relative rates of return of various asset classes. Renting vs. owning is not strictly an investment decision, and it isn’t always most sensible to buy your primary residence. In my case, we’ve been renters our entire adult lives, but own 3 single-family rentals (outside of our area) and have interests in a number of other pieces of real estate, and this has been a key to building wealth for our particular situation.
To answer your question about how 2-3% growth becomes 10-15% return with leverage, it’s simple – if you put 20% down on a piece of property, you still get 100% of the increase in value. If 2-3% of 100 is 10-15% of 20. (You also absorb a much bigger loss, percentage-wise, if you sell a leveraged property at a loss.) But assuming standard increases in property values over time, if you can leverage up and buy 5 properties with 20% down for the same amount as you’d otherwise have bought 1 property with cash, you will receive 5x the return from appreciation in both percentage and real dollar terms (but your cash flow from rents will be lower because you’ll be servicing mortgages).
on $100,000 house, it will take you 14 years until your interest equals your principal. it will take 17 years until your total monthly mortgage payments you have made so far will equal the $100,000 your home cost. The remaining 13 years of payments will be profit for the bank (for illustrative purposes as bank takes interest first). Zillow shows rent on $100,000 3BR home is $1150 per month. if you were to rent a home for 17 years for $1150/month while saving up to pay cash for a $100,000 home, you would pay $234,600 in rental costs just to hand the bank $100,000 in cash so you avoid paying interest on the house.
if you were to buy the house and live in it and double your mortgage payment from $477 to $954, you would have the home paid off in 10 years 9 months and you would pay only 23,000 in interest instead of 72,000 in interest for 30 years.
Yeah, you also have to include the costs of the mortgage, maintenance, upkeep, peoperty taxes, school taxes, etc. In most markets a home is a lifestyle choice, not an investment.
I consider myself to actually be quite average in net worth for my age when compared to the other people here BUT my average gross salary is WAY below the average SO I am actually quite proud:
1) Lifetime gross income from December 1986 to February 2015 (the month I turned age 53): $315,345 (this works out to be about $11,195 on an annual basis).
2) I did not start saving for retirement until 1990 (age 28).
3) I have given away about 25 grand to charities over this time span.
4) Hourly wage positions: 5, 7, 8+, 9, 9.5, 10.25, 10.43, 11 (part-time music gigs much higher but very sporadic).
5) Net worth: about a half a million when taking into consideration investments and material assets.
REASONS: An excellent financial planner and NON MATERIALISM (for many years, I wore a sweat shirt with the saying “MOXIE MUSIC WATER”.
Sorry folks.
I meant “sweatshirt” (one word).
Thanks for this article! I read your blog on 401K balances and was surprised at first to find that, despite saving aggressively and maxing out for the last 5 years (I’m 33), my husband and I were only “on par” with your optimal range (now ~450K) . However, our total net worth is $725K (not counting any assets other than our home). Given that there are many ways to accumulate wealth and different risk tolerances for different age groups, I think the total net worth measure is probably the most accurate way of measuring one’s savings progress.
Great story, William! Your life story is a true indication that where you start in life has no bearing on where you finish. I know this because my story is similar. I too came from a large family of limited means. My parents, albeit good and hardworking people, were brutally honest with their kids. We clearly understood their responsibility was to get us through high school; what we did beyond that was our responsibility. I’m happy to report that four out of six kids graduated from college. I had to sleep in my car the last semester of my senior year, but I did graduate. I enjoyed a 25-year career in corporate sales and now live off of passive income generated by real estate investments. I think six key lesson have helped me along the way:
1. Know what you don’t know. Learning is a life-long endeavor, so intellectual curiosity is a key to success. As a great man once said, “If you are not willing to learn, no one can help you. If you are determined to learn, no one can stop you.” [Zig Ziglar]
2. Working smart, not hard. Focusing on “high-priority” tasks that contribute to accomplishing your goals. Work towards your objectives every day.
3. Follow your passion and have a clear sense of direction.
4. Do the right thing. I’m a big believer in Karma, so “doing the right thing” and helping people along the way is critical to ones success in life.
5. Marry a good woman! I have an incredible partner who has always worked hard to help us reach our goals. She makes me a better person!
6. Live within your means. No explanation required.
I love your story, William. You should be very proud of your accomplishments!!
In addition to telling my own personal story, I want to offer some thoughts on a couple topics that were discussed pretty extensively in this thread.
GPAs – I’ve hired (and, sadly, had to let go) quite a few people in my career. In my experience, a person’s GPA never said much about whether that person would be successful in a certain job. Other factors, among them learning agility and the ability to build collaborative relationships to name just a couple, were always much more important to determining success. All other things being equal, a high GPA might be indicative of work ethic or other desirable traits, but a person’s GPA is not a factor I’ve ever given much weight to when making hiring decisions.
Rent vs. Buy – For most people, buying a home is a good decision. Of course, this presupposes that the person can afford the down payment and the loan repayments, just as affordability can turn any otherwise sound investment choice into a bad decision. However, it’s not always a slam dunk that buying a home is a better financial decision than renting one. For some people, it does indeed make sense to maintain liquidity and avoid the relatively long term commitment that home ownership usually requires. These are usually people who can afford NOT to own a home, despite the fact that millionaires often do own their homes. Regardless of your financial situation, understanding your time horizon and possible alternative uses for the equity are important things to consider when you are making a decision on whether to rent or buy a home.
Awesome story William! Much respect to you and your accomplishments… Your comments were well stated as well.
Financial Samurai loosely defined his first criteria that the above average person went to college and believes that grades and a good work ethic do matter….
I think he’s just building a frame of reference for this theoretical net worth chart… the degree to which you agree or disagree with a specific criteria probably doesn’t matter too much, but it does make for interesting sharing of views and opinions.
I think most people, including Samurai, will agree that grades are a tool for comparing people at a specific point in time in their life… Obviously the further one gets from the age at which they graduate from college, the less grades will mean anything to someone comparing them to other candidates for a job… All things being equal, someone with real life experience in a particular line of work will normally be easier and cheaper to seamlessly and quickly integrate into a business.
Grades typically only matter when someone first graduates from school and they are applying for certain jobs cold with little to no relevant work experience. A lot of major firms have minimum GPA requirements in order to consider a candidate… That doesn’t mean the low GPA people could not do the job as well as, or better than the high GPA people, but it does mean they won’t even be considered for those jobs. Thus having a low GPA automatically reduces the number of opportunities available to them.
The GPA demonstrates (to some extent) that the student was able to figure out what would make their professors happy enough to give them an A. Or at least that they were strategic enough to seek out the easy A classes. Absent a lot of other relevant information and or experience, this has some meaning… This same person should hopefully be able to figure out how to make their employer happy enough to rate their work an A.
Of course it’s not the only indicator, but it a useful indicator at a specific point in time. A few years later most people will consider it irrelevant and lean on experience…. Ok, yes you got good grades in school, but what did you do with that after? It’s difficult to really know how any person will perform at a job until you see them in action.
A few minutes or hours at a job interview is not enough to really know how it will work out with a candidate so employers make judgements using their own experience, and for a young, inexperienced person, grades may be one of the few things you can use to differentiate.
Parents who value education will normally encourage their children to get good grades, and help them along the way however possible. This is because they believe grades matter for something.
I sometimes read articles on websites like this one because, in my heart, I’m basically scared to death that I’m not really doing as well as I should be doing.
I grew up in a small town in the south. My parents had five kids and we were, at best, middle class. My Mom was a waitress and later a restaurant manager. My Dad drank heavily, and when he was sober he worked as a used car salesman. Once my parents divorced, my Mom was the family’s only source of income. She worked her butt off. My Dad never helped us out after he basically deserted our family.
I got good grades and was hell-bent on going to college, but money was very tight at home. I had to pay my own way, working part time and summers. Eventually it was just too much and I left college to work full time.
My first big break came in my early 20’s when I got a corporate job in a major city. I didn’t know a single soul there, or even how much money I should ask as a salary to live a decent life in such an expensive city. Despite never finishing college, I got the job and along the way was able to work my way up a notch or two.
My next big break came when my company offered me a job overseas. It was supposed to be a one year assignment, but it ended up being a few years. Once again, I worked my way up a notch or two on the corporate ladder.
Once I had a good income, I was able to start saving and could invest a little money. I had a few close relationships, but didn’t get married until years later. I always counted only on myself, remembered how it was when I was kid and our family had no safety net at all, and was always worried that I would end up back there.
After years of working and changing jobs a few times for better opportunities, I recently entered my 50’s. I’m happily married. We don’t have kids and never wanted a family, just each other and our dogs. My spouse had no money when we met, is not employed, but certainly does work hard at taking care our home. Over the past few years, I’ve finally started to feel financially secure. Our net worth is about $6 million and I’m still working hard in my corporate job. I know many reading this will think the journey I’m describing is impossible, or perhaps you will wonder, how did it happen?
Many reasons: 1.) good luck; 2.) work, work, work; 3.) growing up in a family without any money, so that I’ve always been worried about financial security; 4.) working overseas for several years, which allowed me to save and invest early on; 5.) jobs that provided an income beyond what I needed to live on, although I will admit that I’ve actually lived very well by most standards; 5.) eventually getting into a long term relationship that provided domestic stability.
Although I’m fairly secure at this point, I still worry a bit. As you make more money and accumulate some wealth, you have to be careful that you remember the value of a dollar. It’s easy to spend more than you should, just because you can. Starting to believe you’re “rich” just because you have a few million dollars stashed away is a really big mistake. Failing to enjoy your money while you’re healthy is also a big mistake, because you can’t enjoy it once you’re gone.
Thanks to the moderator for giving me a place to share my story, and I wish everyone here well in their own personal journeys.
I looked thru the charts on your article. I have worked for 32 years, so I checked out the 33 year line on each chart. I was absolutely consistent in max contributions to 401k throughout the years, and was lucky to have good matching employer amounts…still I made a lot of mistakes. Guess what? I ended up almost exactly where your chart indicates for my years of work. I always thought the consistency was on my side….sort of like the Tortoise and the Hare
Thanks!
Awesome for providing an extra datapoint of support for my analysis after 32 years of contribution!
The feedback is basically a lot more naysayers from the younger demographic and a lot more support from the older demographic.
I hope for those younger people who believe saving such amounts is impossible, to simply know that if you stick to consistent contributions in a balanced investment portfolio, the chances are high that you too, will get there. Compounding growth and disciplone goes a LONG way! You just have to believe and get started!
Sam
I was curious if you factored in things such as regionality of cost of living into this calculation, since this would effect not only your annual earnings, directly lowering your net worth potential, but also the cost of a home, which would indirectly lower your net worth potential. For instance, in my area, I could purchase a 3100 sq. ft. 5 bedroom house on a 1/2 acre lot that is less than 5 years old for $330k (list price) which is right around the average of what you’re are saying a 27 year old would be buying, this seems a little excessive to me for a first home purchase.
Overall, I’ve been tracking pretty well in regards to the chart listed. I like to keep my retirement, post tax and home equity fairly even. Therefore, my retirement is lower that the chart listed. My post tax is higher than the chart listed. My home equity is higher than the chart listed.
i have been reading this site since I started working about 4.5 years ago. It absolutely motivates me (bc I want to be the best). I’m 28 now but I graduated dual bachelor civil engineering and physics after a whopping 6 years. So one can imagine I definitely started off behind the 24 yr old/25 curve. However I did get scholarships and was in state (state school) so I had zero debt upon graduation. I have always saved everything I could from the start because I knew I wanted to be rich/wealthy or at the very least not have to slowly die in corporate America. I started out with a 60k position living at my uncles place in NYC paying around $500 in rent. Saving around $2k/mnth buying equities with all of it. Then I made some bad decisions promptly lost $13k was heart broken bought a bmw which ultimately cost me another $13k after selling (and I’m being generous). I was probably worth about $70k after leaving ny 1.5 yrs there- to tx the cheapest and hey no taxes. I switched back to save mode and sold my 650i for a civic and since I paid cash for the bmw I got $10k back. From there I’ve probably averaged around 5-10k to 401k +5% match from comp. I do not like putting money in 401k bc I feel my options suck plus i would suffer 10% loss if I ever wanted to pull it out. Long story short I have bought several stocks and made money on most but on specific stock apple has blown me past the 30 average. I hope to buy some rental properties next year if this year goes as good as I hope (I say hope because in this world Anything is possible).
Also in tx I got room mates paid $600/inclusive for rent and moved 4 miles from work. My expenses total around $1.7k/mnth and I can eat out occasionally and every once and a while so a nice trip.
In regards to home ownership it’s not necessary sure. I could also be an nba player and be a millionaire having never invested went to college or opened a finance book. I do know a friend of mine moved to tx while I was here sold after a year and reported a $50k gain. Needless to say, crap that coulda been me!
My numbers which fluctuate day to day
Equities $203k
401k/+cash option benefit plan $73&
Civic $13.2k according to kbb
PS I am plotting on million nw by 32.
Just got through reading the article and all of the comments. Some great information in here; inspiring stuff as well. I just turned 23, and have been working full time in my career for 7 months. I was fortunate enough to graduate with zero debt, and I live at home with my parents. My salary is $59k and since I started working I’ve been able to put away $18,000 in savings plus a few more thousand in my maxed out 401k that my company matches 6%. My goal is to have $50,000 in my savings account by my 25th birthday, but after reading some of the comments on here it seems like I will still be behind many of you!
Sam – love the site and all of the content. Couple issues I’ve been having with Personal Capital (I recently signed up):
1. My wife also has accounts with same mutual fund firm (Vanguard) and we can’t seem to figure out how to link two accounts from the same provider (?)
2. We have an investment in a private real estate fund which has done quite well, but there doesn’t seem to be a way to track this (?)
3. I work for a small advisory firm that was recently bought by a larger bank – since I now have a 401k and other accounts with the big bank (not my preference but nothing I can do about it), any ideas on how to link this?
Thanks so much!
Drew
I fit most of the mold you laid out except I took out student loans for an expensive education. Despite having a negative net worth at around 30, looks like I’m still on track to catch up to your “average” before age 40.
I like a stock allocation around 70%-90% so I don’t really consider myself a conservative investor. Nonetheless, I can’t help but relegate myself to an optimistic annualized return of 4%. (actually I use a range: 0% pessimistic and 4% optimistic) I’m skeptical that returns will mirror those of the past, so I don’t want to set myself up for disappointment 10 to 15 years down the road.
A 0%-4% long-term expected stock return is a good idea. Better to be conservative and end up with more than expected, than end up with less than expected. Folks like Dave Ramsey calling for a 11-12% annual return in stocks when the 10-year yield is under 2% are way too aggressive imo.
The housing boom in the early 2000s along with the decline from the 2006 peak has created a distorted view on the value of homes as an investment. We can talk about all the bad players (lenders, politicians, greedy investors, etc…) that contributed to this period in history, but personal responsibility would more accurately hit the mark. I live in a resort area that turned PLUTONIUM HOT during this period. In fact, so hot that it defied logic in terms of normal housing appreciation. It made me so nervous that I sold everything I had in 2006 and parked the money in a safe account until the market stabilized. The housing prices were as unrealistically low in 2011 as they were high in 2006. So, knowing that “a rising tide lifts all boats,” I started buying foreclosures in 2011. The opportunities to make favorable investments in real estate, including the real estate that happens to be your home, depends on whether you are willing to make the “right decisions” relative to the marketplace. Eric, I had a negative net worth at age 27, so you are in a far better place financially than I was at your age. Real estate investing, as in most investing, is a dynamic endeavor with a multitude of variables, which makes it difficult to talk about buying a home as an investment in such a static way. I read blogs like this for that very reason. These types of blogs offer me knowledge that is just not attainable in my local market. I appreciate your comments, Eric. Thanks…
I’m going to have to go ahead and challenge some of your number crunching here, man, because you’re not telling an accurate story.
It is, in fact, true that most millionaires are property owners. So far so good. What you’re article here seems to imply is that if everyone buys a house they are on track for the same outcome. This is simply not true. At all. The math doesn’t work that way UNLESS certain things are assumed.
A younger person, we’ll say someone who’s 30, who mortgages a house with minimal money down (assume a maximum of 5% down) with a 30 year mortgage at current rates (around 4.5%) and stays in the house will NEVER make money on the property. It simply isn’t possible UNLESS they pay it off far sooner than 30 years. The interest paid to the bank on a mortgage DWARFS whatever sale price they eventually sell the house for. If they sell sooner than 15 years, they don’t have anywhere close to enough equity to make it worth it. So, in essence, realtors and financial planners sell the ILLUSION of weath from owning a home, but never point out that in order to increase your wealth, you have to make more money than you pay over time…which is ABSOLUTELY NOT the case when you finance a house without at least the same amount in assets. Mortgaging a $300,000 house when you have a net worth of maybe $95,000 clearly isn’t going to make you more wealthy. So there’s that.
Most millionaires BUY their property with cash, OR they have the assets to liquidate the debt when needed. Most 30-somethings don’t have those resources, and thus, are only pushing themselves further into poverty…albeit, their monthly PAYMENTS may be lower than renting.
The bottom line here, is that you CAN build wealth by renting, actually. Because there isn’t a one-size-fits-all formula to wealth growth. If there was, everyone would do it. There IS, however, a one-size-fits-all formula to wealth redistribution (i.e., you are transferring your future wealth to people who are already rolling in money), and it’s called mortgaging a house. People need to do their own legwork and calculate what they can and can’t afford and make rational decisions based on facts, not what a financial planner or realtor says they need to do. Their incentive is to sell things to you to make money, not help you become financially independent. This isn’t to say there aren’t honest folks in the industry, but most don’t care if you end up better off than when you started out. That’s just how it is.
So, to anyone who may happen to come across this article, and subsequently see these comments, keep that in mind. You DO NOT need to finance a house to get rich. The claim that you do is patently untrue UNLESS you have the money to buy a house outright or, at the very least, mortgage less than half of the purchase price. This is extremely important to understand. A HOUSE is a place to live, nothing more. It is NOT an investment vehicle.
Eric, nobody says you can’t build wealth renting all one’a life. Of course you can.
I’m saying that you have to live somewhere, the return on rent is always -100% every month, and the government provides mortgage interest tax breaks, while property has inflated over time. I think it’s prudent to buy at least your primary residence and be neutral real estate.
Please share your net worth, age, education, work field etc so we get an idea of where you are coming from.
Thanks
My net worth is in the 6-figures. I’m 36. I have an AAS in audio engineering and studied finance at a university before just leaving. I built my net worth from a starting point of -$27,000 about 12 years ago.
And I didn’t say you said you can’t make money renting…if I did, there was either a typo or something. But I think you were being misleading by pointing out millionaires own their homes. Of course they do, millionaires only borrow money they can afford to pay back (unless, as we learned in the years leading up to 2008, they’re playing with other people’s money…then they’re fine with leverage). Return on rent isn’t 100%, by the way. It’s 0%…in purely financial terms. I’m simply paying for a roof over my head. The return may be 100% in abstract terms, but not monetary terms.
The math, however, ONLY works one way. You can’t make money if you don’t have money. Borrowing more money than you have to purchase something you can’t afford NECESSARILY MEANS that you will NEVER make a return on it. This is a trap so many millions of people fall into–either by willful ignorance (wishful thinking), or stupidity. You CAN make money if you have money, however. The only thing that will grow your wealth is understanding what you’re doing, how the numbers break down, having discipline, and not being stupid. That’s it. The paths to get there are many and vary greatly depending on individual financial resources, but the MATH is ALWAYS the same. That is my point.
I still don’t get it. Yes, math is math. There is no return on rent. Why are you disagreeing?
Even though your net worth might not fit my charts, it doesn’t mean you can’t get there.
You don’t have to justify still renting at 36 as well. If you are uncomfortable with renting, and can see yourself in one place for the next 5-10 years, then buy. No big deal.
Read: The Best Time To Buy Property Is When You Can Afford It
Because Eric’s right. There’s no return on a house either, and it’s usually a bad bet. Let’s say I live in a $700/month rental property for 30 years. After 30 years, I’ve paid $252,000 to live there. Someone else buys a $250,000 house and lives there for 30 years. By the end, he’ll have paid $430,000, not counting property taxes, maintenance, etc. After 30 years, he has a house. I have about $200,000 that I didn’t spend on interest, maintenance, property taxes, etc., and I can easily move to somewhere I want to live if I don’t like where I am. He’s stuck where he is.
Seems like you should be taking tips from Eric.
Eric’s argument, aside from not making sense, absolutely ignores time value of money. Your argument ignores inflation. The homebuyer has fixed mortgage payments for 30 years while his asset appreciates; the renter has to deal with rising rents and has no asset. Assuming 3% annual inflation, the renter is now paying $400,000 (in face-value dollars) over 30 years, at the end of which he has nothing to show for it. The homebuyer, who’s spent $430,000 (your number – yes I know you left some stuff out but the point is the same), now owns an asset worth $589,000, which he can sell if he desires (he’s not stuck with it if he wants out).
Nobody claims that homeownership guarantees wealth, but Eric’s implication that homeownership is a path to financial ruin is just odd.
I think you’re missing one variable. The appreciation of the house.
When I cleared my first million in net worth at age 27, a decent portion of it was due to appreciation of my San Francisco property. That property is now generating $3,800 a month in rent and has a mortgage of $1,300, only $200 of which is interest. The property appreciated from $580,000 to $1,050,000. My cash on cash return went from $120,000 to $930,000 now. That’s pretty good imo, and that’s just one of my four properties.
I think it’s good you are investing the difference with what you are saving buying property. The reality is, most people don’t save and invest that difference. Most people spend.
What is your age and net worth currently? I like hearing people’s perspectives and taking people’s advice. So I’m all ears.
Check out: The First Million Might Be The Easiest
Thx
I have to agree with Jonathan & Samurai, as most readers probably will. Long-term prices appreciate. After a house is paid off, there is only property tax and insurance to pay, while a renter has never-ending, always escalating rent to pay. This rent is income to the owner or it pays for principal and interest on the owner mortgage, building equity for the owner… There is a reason why 97% of millionaires own their own home:
https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/stanley-millionaire.html
I had to read this article twice in search of the “implication” that renters can’t build wealth. I couldn’t find it? There must be something in Eric’s personal story that led him to this conclusion. I’m 55-years-old and currently own multiple rental and commercial properties. My personal homes have played an integral role in helping me acquire additional investment property. The average tenure of a home seller is relatively short, with owners selling their homes after owning them for only six years; it was even shorter prior to ’03. We moved many times over the past 20 years and never made less than 30K on a home; in fact, one home doubled in value during the housing boom. This strategy coupled with the traditional advantages of owning a home (e.g., mortgage interest tax breaks, etc…) helped us reach our financial goals much faster than anticipated. It is certainly possible to build wealth as a renter, but you can’t beat the financial advantages that home ownership provides.
The implication is manifest in the assumptions at the beginning of the article for what is considered “average”. The “average” person saves next to nothing and isn’t working what, for the purposes of this context, could be considered a “career”. Most people in their prime years are working to pay off student debt and many of them have multiple jobs and still can’t afford to live.
I’ve worked for HUD before, doing audits and policing mortgage companies. I’ve seen the assets and W-2s of many borrowers, and I know all the trickery lenders use to make things seem a certain way when they aren’t. Most people can’t afford houses. Affording the payments is not the same as affording the house. Furthermore, spending 6 years in a house when you take out a 30 year mortgage does not help you grow wealth faster. That’s crazy talk. What math works that way, UNLESS, as I’ve previously stated, the buyer HAS THE ASSETS to absorb the debt. Which represents MAYBE 1% of all buyers. You said yourself that you own multiple rental properties. Who can afford that but people with money? That is the point.
A house is not an investment, at least not for 99% of all the people that buy them. They have been intentionally misled into believing that it is because they don’t know any better. A house is a place to live. Can you make money on it? Sure. But very specific criteria need to be met before you turn a NET profit. Selling the house for more than you bought it for doesn’t mean you made money. The only people who make money are the ones who understand how finance works…which is very few. I try to advise as many people as I can to NOT buy houses UNLESS they can afford it. Meaning that you never borrow more money than you can pay off. Taking on debt is a wonderfully affordable way to grow wealth IF you can liquidate it immediately should you need to. Borrowing $500,000 when you only have $95,000 in assets NECESSARILY MEANS that it is IMPOSSIBLE to make money.
That is what I have been talking about. I never said that owning a house can’t be a good idea. It’s a good idea if you can AFFORD TO OWN IT. Period. Most people can’t…which is why no one has any money.
The above average person buys things they can afford, which includes a house.
The people you are talking about are not above average people. They are the people who got in way over their heads during the 2008-2010 financial crisis and hurt others who were responsible and kept paying their mortgage.
Again, there’s nothing wrong with being a renter. In fact, landlords needs renters. There is a symbiotic relationship. And there is a reason why the average net worth of a landlord is much greater than the average net worth of a renter. Again, it’s up to each individual to accumulate assets or not.
Hi Eric,
I agree with Financial Samurai on the home ownership point.
I’m 45, self-employed, net worth ~$3M. I own my own home + two investment properties, looking to buy a third. I had minimal financial help from my parents, who were lower middle class financially and I graduated with about $20k in student loans (BS in Acctg from public university)
I put down 20% on the first investment property, 10 years ago, at age 35…$70k on a $350k house. Interest @ 6.375%, ~$2k/month including property tax and insurance. I got $2k/month in rent, so was at roughly break-even on a monthly cash-flow basis. The annual mortgage interest tax credit put me in positive cash flow. Today the property has a market value of $600k, and rents for $3000/month. It has definitely been a worthwhile investment. I refinanced to under 4%, and pay down the mortgage more rapidly. It contributes $400k of my net worth. and is now a cash cow.
Let’s take a scenario: Put down 5% ($20k) on a $400k owner-occupied property.
With a 30 year fixed mortgage @ 4.5% on $380k your payment is $1925/month. For ease of calculation, assume property tax of $4,200 (~1%) and insurance of $1.2k, which are reasonable. This means your monthly payment is $2,375.
After 6 years (average home ownership), you will have paid approximately $100k in interest while paying down $40k in principal.
Roughly $555/month of your monthly payment goes towards your own net worth, as your mortgage balance will now be $340k instead of $380k.
Roughly 30% of your interest expense (more or less depending on your tax bracket) $30k ($400/month) comes back in the form of annual tax credits.
So the average person buying a $400k property with 5% down ends up with an effective carrying cost around the same as a renter paying $1400/month (+ utilities.)
The differences are: 1) the renter has no upside, while the owner does. 2) The owner has a higher monthly payment and assumes the risk of a market decline.
If they can’t afford the monthly payments, the owner should not buy the property, and the above average person would not get into a mortgage commitment they don’t understand.
Financial Samurai, I have mixed feelings about the GPA argument. I had a 2.7GPA and I do feel it was because of my work ethic wasn’t great in college. However, I consider myself above average intelligence, and am a think-outside-the-box kind of person. Although I wasn’t highly paid at my first jobs, I put myself in positions to learn the business I was working for. When the time came, I took a leap, set out on my own, and thankfully I made it work. I feel I added a lot of value to the companies that took a chance on me, and I wasn’t all that well compensated for it, but in the end everything happened for a reason.
I currently don’t hire anyone other than for positions where education isn’t important. I think if I were in a corporate structure and in a position to do so, I would still prefer to hire a high GPA person. However, I would definitely reserve judgement and give consideration to someone with a lower GPA, since there’s a lot of facets to what makes someone a good worker, and I can relate since I myself was a low GPA person… Also, since a low GPA person may often have less options, you can potentially compensate them less at the outset, and therefore get more value from them for your money… I know that in the Accounting field, the big firms have minimum GPA requirements before they will call someone in for an interview.
I guess at the end of the day, since it is an article of the ‘above-average-person’ I was not ‘above-average’ at the time of college graduation as strictly reflected/defined by my sub-par GPA. However, I now fall above your net worth requirements, at an older age…
However, there are multiple possible definitions of an ‘above-average-person’ and not all of them relate to net worth. There are people who take a completely different track in life, choosing to forego a pursuit of material things in order to pursue other things such as altruism. Of course anyone can make their own decisions and judgements about this, and yours is certainly an interesting and useful article/analysis and basis of comparison if you want to see how you might compare with the Joneses.
Thanks!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mark! On the 2.7 GPA front, you hit the nail on the head when you said it was about work ethic, or lack thereof. GPA is more work ethic than intelligence. My motto is to never fail due to a lack of effort, and if I’m hiring for a position for someone within 3- 5 years out of school, I definitely must consider GPA and what s/he has done after professionally.
Sometimes, people do so bad in school that they try hard after school to make up for their bad GPA. I like those people. They are hungry and have a “I messed up, but now I’m going to do my best” attitude which I love.
Eric, I think the partial point you are trying to make is that far too many people were duped into “buying” houses that they could not afford (i.e they broke the old rules about how to gauge what price level you can afford based on income).
However, overall your logic is shortsighted. The idea isn’t to make money on short-term outlay of money when you purchase a house. As others have mentioned, you get the tax breaks and the hope is that the property increases in value. But, even if it does not, you are building equity in the property – equity which you can then take on to the next property and so on. Even if you stay in the house till it is paid off, you are ahead despite the fact that you potentially paid more than it was worth… why? Simply because based on the averages you will far outlive that loan and will own your residence until you decide to downsize in your old age or pass on. So, bottom line is that you can think of buying a house as a savings plan. Taking $X/month and investing in the house vs the same $X/month and spending it on rent is a no-brainer. At the end of 30 years you have a rent-free place to live vs paying rent to someone else for the rest of your life (and helping them build wealth).
I speak from experience – I’m 49 and semi-retired because I bought a house when I was about 30 – paid it off in about 16 years (30 year loan with accelerated payments) and now I’m able to save almost all of my income and prepare for full retirement without the burden of worrying about how I’m going to pay for housing for the rest of my life.
Discussing your GPA relative to net worth is about as interesting as “Inflategate,” root canal surgery or the U.S. Tax Code. “Formal education will make you a living; self-education will make you a fortune.” I left college with a degree, $70.00, one ugly suit and $1,000 in school loan debt. I currently have several paid-off commercial and multifamily properties. My college education provided a good foundation for success, but the “School of Hard Knocks” taught me more than I could ever learn in a classroom. This blog has placed more focus on GPA than it actually deserves. I’m more interesting in “how you got there” than “how you started.”
I think grades matter in getting the next degree, but in relation to making money probably not for most people.
It does matter to the individual however, in their understanding / mastery of the subject.
Perhaps I’m missing something, but isn’t this ignoring the debt on the home? Sure you can count equity in the house as an asset, but only if you count the remaining loan amount as a debt, right?
Hi Ken,
It sounds like you may confuse market value with home equity…
By definition, home equity takes into consideration the remaining loan amount.
ie: house market value = $300k, mortgage balance = $200k, equity = $100k.
Cheers,
Of course grades matter. But so does the choice of one’s educational focus and degree.
Getting high grades in technology or business school endeavors is different in today’s economic environment than getting high grades in social work. Some areas of enterprise are simply more financially rewarding than some others. It’s pretty clear that somebody can get mediocre grades in a high demand or high income specialty and do MUCH better than one who gets the highest grades in a career choice with little job growth prospects or demand.
In my opinion, college-bound students are not counseled correctly regarding their choice of academic direction as it relates to their near and long-term job and income prospects.
Absolutely Patrick!
It should be a requirement for all high school counselors/college admissions specialists that they discuss cost vs benefit.
The rule may be flexible, but one years first salary as a maximum for total school loans is a fair and reasonable threshold.
How anyone can justify a 40K/year school for a undergrad in any BA is ridiculous unless you have a generous parent/grandparent paying your way.
Education: Less than 2 year attending community college (high school GPA 2.3)
Age: 34
Married – 2 kids
Current net worth: ~$700,000
• 401k and other retirement savings: $400,000
• House equity (conservative): $125,000
• Cash: $75,000
• Other: $100,000
• No debt (cars paid)
Outside of items 1 and 11, the criteria above generally describes my professional and personal attributes. Obviously my lack of education limits most high paying opportunities, but with proper work ethic, good business sense, and the ability to market your strengths – anything is possible.
Looking back, I completely understand the limited professional success I’ve accomplished is an anomaly and would not recommend this formula as a blueprint for anyone looking to maximize their inherent potential. My point is that there’s something to be said for an individual who (outside of formal education) relentlessly pursues financial stability.
This was a great read! We are dual retired military. Our numbers have to go in very different columns — there was no TSP (401K ) in the military until about 2001 — so, we are heavy in the taxable accounts, the Roth accounts come next, and our TSP (tax deferred) accounts are small in comparison. We both maxed them as soon as they were available, but that was late in our career. In reality, for us that is best, because with our pensions, and considering the tax benefits of a good portion of our military active duty compensation, tax deferred is not our best long term option. For us, Roth is best.
Financial Samurai, I enjoyed the post. However, I think the definition of Above Average Person is a little off with the claim that he or she “has little-to-no student loan debt due to scholarships and part-time work”. Huh? Whether or not a person has student loan debt has little to do with moral fiber and a lot to do with the side of the tracks on which they were born.
In the comment section you said that you went to top-tier schools (W&M, Cal) and, as such, you should know that most people do not get a full scholarship–or even a 50% scholarship–to elite colleges and universities, particularly graduate programs (MBA), medical schools and law schools. Top schools don’t need to entice the choice candidates with scholarships; I promise you that Harvard Law is NOT giving full rides to everyone with a GPA above 3.7 and LSAT above 170 (that would be almost the entire class). The reason top universities are not handing out scholarships to every Mensa member is because they rely on paying students to remain solvent!!
So if the Above Average Person has little-to-no student loan debt, how are they accomplishing this feat? Part-time work? The total 2014-2015 cost of attending Harvard College without financial aid is $58,607 for tuition, room, board and fees. The most amazing part-time, college student job in the world wouldn’t pay half of that amount!
Here’s the reality–the overwhelming majority of people who graduate with no student loans from top-tier colleges and universities were able to do so because their family financed their education. And that’s ok. My gripe is that having family money doesn’t make anyone “Above Average”–it just means that you won the baby lottery.
Wake up Financial Samurai. All of the characteristics of the “Above Average” person require them to affirmatively do something–to delay gratification, to reach a higher level of awareness, etc. But not this student loan nonsense. You are attributing a virtue/accomplishment to people who, more likely than not, did nothing to earn it.
My brother and I both have multiple degrees from top tier schools. We had a variety of athletic and academic scholarships throughout and worked while undergrads (I worked in grad school as well)–and we still had to fill in the gap with student loans. At top-tier schools, part-time work and scholarships usually don’t come anywhere close to covering $50k+ per year in tuition, room, board and fees. Many of our friends and former classmates are your “Above Average” people who graduated with no student loans. And virtually none of them accomplished this feat on their own.
One final nit–my brother and I are both in our late 30’s and have average net worths firmly within your Above Average person scale. Accumulating wealth has been slow and difficult; also, the wealth building process is not linear (for most people). Its more like a hockey stick. So your average net worth scale should probably be adjusted to reflect the 80% of us who didn’t get an economic head start from our family.
Affirmatively do something… does working during the summers, or a part-time job, or applying for scholarships/grants not mean affirmatively doing something to reduce tuition?
And who said the above average person does it all on their own. Above average people get a lot of help from their parents. They are in other words, LUCKIER than average. It is the person who is born on third, who things s/he hit a triple that society hates.
Read: A Massive Generational Wealth Transfer Is Why Everything Will Be OK
Suggested additions to definition of “Above Average”:
12) Above average people get a lot of financial assistance from their parents.
13) Above Average are, in other words, LUCKIER than average.
Hey! A coworker introduced me to your site and I am fascinated by your articles.
I was wondering if you could give me some advice:
I am 24 years old and a project manager making 70k
In 2009 i graduated community college with $0 debt (state paid for tuition thanks to 4.0, even profited over $2,000 in cash scholarships for maintaining it while in college). And since I had no money for college, my parents convinced me to take a Service Desk Tech (IT help desk) job for around 30k after community college while I enrolled at a public school with an online Comp Sci bachelors program (part time has cost me roughly 7-8k per year). After 1.5 years I was promoted to a QA Tester making around $35k, then to business analyst after 6 months (no raise because i was still “entry level” with no bachelors), and finally to lead business analyst 7 months later (to a salary of 41k).
A year later, I was fed up with being underpaid for my work (41k is piddly for a business analyst even without a degree, nevermind one who is a supervisor), so I went and got my CAPM certification (slowing my degree by a few months), and asked for a raise. Company said they couldn’t afford it, so I jumped ship when I found a company offering me 70k, 50% 401k match, and tuition reimbursement.
So now it’s 2015, I’m 4 months from graduating college, I’m making 70k as a project manager (been working here for 2 months), putting 10% of my income into my 401k (currently valued at 10k, & 50% is matched by my employer, i’m at their max for matching), living at home with my parents, I have 3k in CD’s, $26k in savings, and have no debt whatsoever (paying $8k per year for school in cash, so no student loans). I will be continuing to graduate school for my masters in the fall, so I am still expecting to have bills for school for the next 2-3 years (although potentially reimbursed by my job). With my new salary I am dumping $2k of my after tax pay into my savings every month (some of which gets dipped into when tuition time comes).
I see you recommend putting into the max for 401k’s. I’ve never heard of this before and am fascinated, however, being 24 I really want to save for a house. My mom says I shouldn’t worry about upping my 401k at all right now since I don’t have a big nest egg (for a house) and I can’t take money out of my 401k till retirement and I’d need the money now. I was wondering if you had advice regarding whether one could be in my financial situation and still pay for school, save for a house (I’d like to be able to leave my parents house in 5 years), and still be able to up my 401k contribution percentage?
Thanks!
Hi Cheryl,
Welcome to my site! First of all, nice job implementing a savings structure and getting some more education for your future.
Contributing to a 401k or saving for a house is certainly a dilemma many people face. The question becomes: How much is the downpayment for the house you want to buy?
With a $70,000 salary and living at home, you should easily be able to max out $18,000 a year for 2015. Still leaves you with a gross salary of $52,000 to live/save.”Housing fever” desire is strong w/ many people, but if you are still in school and just starting this job, you need to think long and hard about whether you really plan to stay put for AT LEAST five years before buying a house. What if another opportunity arises? Housing has moved up a lot since 2009. Is there a rush?
Check out:
Contribute To 401k or Invest After Tax?
No real eminent rush, just simply that i’m 24 and want to move out without throwing away my money into rent (my parents only charge me 400 a month to live home and “mooch” when apartments in the area are around 800 not including utilities and the food i’d have to pay for).
Also my boyfriend and I have been together about 4 years. He just graduated college and is in HUGE student debt from RPI (I’m fairly certain it’s around 80-100k though he won’t give me the specific #), but we definitely want to start thinking about a future together soon-ish (hopefully within the next 5-7 years), so I know with his debt I’m going to need to save for the future “us” mostly on my own (and again, I don’t want to throw away rent money on a temporary place when I could save it towards a permanent place).
Considering where I’m located (between 2 major cities within an hourish radius, plus a lottttt of IT companies in the area), I know I have no need to move where I live much if any to grow my project management career (Google, Bloomberg and others are within an hourish radius, plus my current company is pretty great and I wanna stick around as long as it works out). So i know picking a permanent residence won’t hurt my opportunities.
And in answer to your question: Good houses in this area go for 250-300k so I’m assuming I’d need 50-75k for a down payment??
Gotcha. Love and life change all the time. I’d wait until a year or two after you BF graduates to then considering your long term housing options.
This post should help you get your thoughts around debt and investing/saving for a house: https://www.financialsamurai.com/pay-down-debt-or-invest-implement-fs-dair/
And this is a fun post about engagement rings! :) https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-new-rule-for-engagement-ring-buying/
You are not “throwing away money” by renting. You have to do the math. It’s all laid out nicely in this article. Sometimes renting is better, sometimes buying is better.
Well, I don’t “fit” into the averages….I’m a single female, aged 60, no kids, no hubby. I graduated from the U.of Wisconsin 1977 majoring in Bacteriology, worked as a chemist for five years, and have had my own business(es) for 33 years. In 1980, I signed up for seminars on retirement planning , at the Fortune 500 where I worked, but at that time, Human Resources informed me that I was “too young” to attend so I was not allowed to go.
I bought my first condo here in California in 1989 and still own it and yes, it’s paid off. In 1993-94 I attended a year of graduate school on a full fellowship and dropped out of the PhD program as I saw a future in academic biological research as the path to legalized welfare. (competing for grants when only 12 percent were getting approved.)
I started another business, doing well when I could/can work through migraines which last three days and are debilitating. These come when I eat certain foods or inhale certain fumes. My renewal commissions were forfeited/stolen for my first two businesses. I learned a lot the hard way.
So today I have a business that I have ready buyers for my future discounted flow of commissions. I sold some future commissions a couple years ago to buy marketing material. My business is only worth about $163000, but it is growing fast now that I can manage my migraines. In addition, I will be completing my MBA in three months at my current age of sixty. I will also have completed the HTML5 Content Developer Certificate at the junior college while I have sat here launching what is now my third business. Today I signed three contracts for products that I have sold before, but these new contracts all give me my own URLS to use and I now have the computer skills I need to benefit from these.
Here is me: 1) my dog, Winston, aged 6 is paid off and I have breeding rights; I bought him for $600. Ok….I don’t plan to breed him…he’s strictly my buddy, and from my standpoint he’s worth over a million! 2) My condo is worth $160,000 and as mentioned above is paid for. 3) a vacation home at the base of Sequoia Park on the river is worth around $400000 and paid off. A friend occupies the large bedroom and pays me $750 a month. 4) I have two other condos out of state that I net around $500 a month total from. They are worth about $100,000 together. 5) Liquid cash and collectibles are worth $46,000. 6. Steady renewal income is about $1800 a month. Renewals are increasing at a rate of about $400 a month. If I did nothing to maintain the renewal income they would be expected to last about 7 years. I guess all this adds up to around $823,000 so according to the standards set down above I have failed royally.
On the other hand, I walk 2 miles a day, take no meds, do yoga, and feel I have a bright future as my MBA and computer marketing skills are helping me a great deal and I have a feeling I will be starting a marketing branch as part of my business. Although I appear to be a failure I can enjoy my weekends in Three Rivers by Sequoia National Park, and because of my steady renewals I feel I am not stressed out and at risk for a heart attack.
Sam,
One thing that doesn’t add up to me is the use of the 2015 tax deferred limits for all ages. For example, a person who is 45 years old in 2015 could not have legally contributed $18,000 back when they started investing as a 21 year old in 1991. Back then, the limit was only $8,475. So if you assume that a person has contributed the maximum amount for their entire career, then you have to factor in that 401k limits have increased over time. Otherwise, the numbers are skewed upwards the older a person is.
Excellent point. The chart is more forward looking than backward looking. BUT, I also think the chart can pertain well to anybody given I don’t include any company match or much growth on the low end and high end.
5% growth on investments isn’t really conservative, if we’re talking about growth AFTER an assumed long term inflation rate of 3%. I typically assume a long term pre-inflation growth rate of ~8%, so if I want to think in present dollars, then I assume a real long term growth rate of 8-3 = 5%.
Since you also assume in your chart that the tax deferred limits will never increase from their current 2015 levels, then I view your chart as being presented in present dollars when doing forward projections (since the limits are indexed to inflation, they tend to stay relatively constant in terms of real purchasing power).
Huh…now that I think about it a little more, maybe you can use the chart to do proper backwards analyses. You just have to mentally consider that while the past years’ contribution amounts were actually lower in past dollars, they were worth more in present dollars – which is accounted for by using the after inflation 5% growth rate.
Might need to dig out my old Finance for Engineers book to confirm if I’m thinking about NPV correctly…
I’m 22 with a net worth of 60k (45k in savings, 15k in retirement.)
Would have been 80k but when I got my licence I purchased a 20k car.
I haven’t been financially dependent on anyone since I was 17.
I didn’t go to college, in fact, I left school when I was 14 – no regrets.
Despite not finishing high school the first job I landed paid 46k PA.
I suppose I’m lucky the minimum wage In my country is $16 an hour but most employers pay a minimum of $18.52 an hour.
This seems like a load of nonsense. The “above average” net worth is seemingly based on the comments of a group of rich people who gather to talk about all the money they have. Talk about selection bias!
I’m probably about average for my age based on the “above average” net worth chart, but there are so many people who I would also consider to be doing well for themselves that are no where near these figures. Anyone going to grad school, which is a common thing these days, will be way behind these numbers for the first decade or two of their lives.
I went to grad school, got a master and doctorate degree in engineering, and started working at a much older age than most people. It took me 13 years to catch up with the average NW above average. I have 3 kids and the oldest one is starting college in 2 years. Some of my savings will go towards paying college bills, so keeping up with the above average person will be a challenge.
I’m a small business owner and you have a problem with saving as much money as you predict. I own a construction company and get about 20 to 50,000 a year under the table. I put a lot of money into toys and my wife and I go out quite often. Any suggestions as to where to invest liquid cash that I don’t want Uncle Sam to find out about? My wife works and we claim last year right around 100 K in combined in gross income. I plan on building a house in using the liquid cash to pay subs to do so. My goal is to be 35 with a $300,000 plus home paid for but I have no money invested and 401(k)/retirement. My wife is a teacher and obviously will have a pension in my business typically has 30 to 60,000 in it. Just wondering if anyone can help with how to spend liquid cash because obviously the tax-free benefits of it or how I can get ahead.
Question about including equity in a home: some “experts” say that including equity in your home is meaningless to net worth because if you were to realize that equity (sell your home) you would need the same money to either buy a new home or pay for rent. Can you better explain why you include home equity in the equation?
PS, I’m not disputing the importance of owning – that is 100% clear.
Thanks
To illustrate:
Imagine three houses on a street, each worth $300k.
House A has 33% equity with $200k mortgage balance
House B has 50% equity with $150k mortgage balance
House C has 100% equity with no mortgage
Otherwise, the finances are the same for the house’s owners.
The only way to fairly measure net worth is to say that the owner of house C has the most NW. It would not be accurate to omit equity and say all three households have the same NW.
I have been looking for an honest net worth appraisal on line for stewards of finances for years. Great job! For the first time, I can see I do have a lot of work to do, while, understanding that I am focused on retiring early. Thank you for your effort.
My advice would be to 1) eliminate non-mortgage debt and 2) pay off your mortgage. Some would say leave the mortgage debt and invest in the market, but I’m not one of those people. I think its better to be out of debt, besides, the market is at/near all time highs and we are due for another recession at some point (its been ~ 7 years since the last one) and I don’t think stock market returns are going to be spectacular for the next couple of years. Good to max out your HSA and 401K.
Your “move in your 30s” depends on your goals – and you should think bigger than financial (ie, do you want kids/more kids? If so, is your wife going to keep working? Does she want to quit to spend more time with the kids, or cut back to part-time). These kinds of decisions made now, when kids are young and impressionable, are more important than the financial ones. Those things aside, I would 1) pay off all debt, 2) build wealth. It’s that simple. Dave Ramsey’s “Total money makeover” can spell out more details.
Congrats on your current net worth position. At your age that is admirable.
So I’m 30 and have a net worth of about $750k. However, I only have about $25k in 401ks, $250k in cash, and the rest is equity in my home (combo of appreciation and aggressive principal paydown). I owe about $260k on my house and I’m considering just paying off the mortgage and loading up on “investments” after that. I personally have the blessing of making too much to deduct hardly anything from pre-tax retirement accounts and therefore my only real contribution each year is maxing out my HSA ($5,500/yr). What’s my move in my 30’s? In a good market my household can bring in $350k+ and in a down year probably $250k+. However, if my wife quit or went part-time we’d be down $100k/yr. What should my goal be over the next 10 years?
@Andy,
Fair question re: use of 401k money. My comment was mostly about my wanting that flexibility. I am not suggesting everyone follow the same plan. I don’t know about you, but I don’t believe I would ever have enough to retire without using at least some 401k money. Perhaps if the strategy was to put everything into post-tax savings that is possible (i.e. a Roth 401k with high contribution limits?). I’ve got some in post-tax, but the lion’s share in pre-tax savings. Of course you are right in your order of what to draw on first, but it’s not as bad as you might think if you plan to retire in the 15% bracket. Were I to shift my savings today to be more post-tax, I would be paying 25% federal income tax on that money. Nobody has a crystal ball with respect to future tax rates, but after the Bush tax cuts for the lower brackets were made permanent by this administration, I have a least a little confidence that 15% is where I’ll be if I choose to retire at 55. It doesn’t sound lavish, but with a paid-for home it’s not bad. I can also choose to pick up work here and there to supplement that income. As a software engineer with fairly relevant skills I get unsolicited requests to work 3-12 month contracts pretty frequently.
I’m not sure how people can afford those contributions, either. My husband and I are 35 with a household income of 64k (which I understand is about average). We are currently only able to contribute 3840 to our 401k each year, with a match of 2560 for a total of 6400. We own a median home (220k) with 95k in equity and a 15-year mortgage payment of 1326 per month. Our expenses come out to 3500 a month, we have no debt except our mortgage, and we’re very frugal- shopping at garage sales and thrift stores, eating a simple diet of lots of beans and grains with mostly only the cheapest produce under a dollar per pound and no meat. We drive cheap, paid-for cars. We don’t have cable, and my flip phone with no data costs $10 per month. We have four children ranging in age from 2 to 10. The only real extravagance we have is that three of the four kids take piano lessons for $120 per month. This chart may be realistic for single people or married people with no children, but it doesn’t seem very workable for families.
Great info.
At age 49 I’m at about 2M ($750K retirement, $750K investment, $500K home equity). $400K of that investment is from a recent inheritance. I own a vacation property out of state and a condo that I rent out (both free and clear), and live with my domestic partner in a house he owns and pay him a modest monthly rent.
Even with a not super high end income (just over 100K) I max my 401ks and will do catch up in 2015 (when I turn 50 – $24K max contribution). Use the qualified dividend income from investments if I need extra cash and limit my tax burden by deferring income. (Also, max the HCSA account; another way to stash cash away tax free).
A previous post talked about removing 401k monies after age 55 from a qualified plan; that’s true, but the order to use your retirement money is always – taxable first – then tax deferred (401k) – then tax free (Roth). Unless you have no other cash you would not want to take 401k money at age 55. And if you don’t have any other cash – why are you retiring?
Admittedly no kids to raise or send to college, so one reason why I’ve accumulated so much cash. But I keep my cars for 10-15 years, buy cars with cash, cook at home a lot, and don’t spend money on useless things. I cringe when I talk to (much less wealthy) friends about their leased cars, or how their car will be paid off in a few months and they will go out right away and buy new.
I use Quicken pretty exclusively to track my investments.
Your average calculation is way off . No way the average person puts away that much.
where did you get these figures from.
I love reading these comments.
Some of the things I agree with:
* GPA counts, but only for your first few years out of college, and if you plan to do any grad school. Nobody cares after you have work experience in your field. I also agree that it does reflect work ethic in college, but not necessarily intelligence and absolutely not earning potential.
* It’s easy to look at other people’s success and feel they had it easier. I know, I’ve done it a lot.
My stats: just turned 44. Married, two kids and net worth of ~$615k. My wife currently doees not work much at all, choosing to stay home with the kids. I am an engineer in the Midwest earning an average engineer’s income. I like the poster who said the table gives a good number if you bat 1.000. Things that have probably set me back:
* Wife brought in $25k of college/consumer debt. NOTE: I emphatically do *NOT* consider her a liability :-)
* Upgraded our home near the peak of the market and overpaid considerably.
* I didn’t understand investing in my 20s at all. I once bought a mutual fund with the letters OTC in them and didn’t know what they meant. I do now!
My financial plan includes:
* maximizing 401k contributions and a 6% match from my employer to really grow that retirement money
* continuing to pay on our 15 year mortgage to eliminate mortgage debt in the next 10 years.
* follow the advice in Ben Stein’s great book, “Yes you can time the market” about SMARTER dollar cost averaging
* Of course tracking net worth with Personal Capital by linking all my accounts
* tracking the budget with YNAB. It’s basically the envelope budget system but with an Android app instead of envelopes.
* Ultimately, being prepared to possibly *semi* retire at age 55. I will spill the beans on an IRS detail that I may take advantage of. In the year you turn 55, if you leave your job for whatever reason, you can begin to withdraw from that employer’s 401k *WITHOUT PENALTY*. If you plan ahead, you can roll previous 401k money into the current employer’s plan and have essentially ALL of your retirement money available to you at age 55.
So I understand that this is “for the above average person,” but I think there is a seriously flawed assumption going on here: that your above-average person begins work at 22. I would certainly consider my wife and I “above average,” in that we have 20 years of higher education between us, at well-reputed institutions such as Vanderbilt, Tufts, and the University of Michigan. Together we have undergraduate degrees in German Studies, Economics, Philosophy, Psychology, and Sociology. We also have masters in Sociology and Philosophy, a PhD in Sociology, and a JD. But this means we didn’t really start working until age 30, have had to manage our student loans, and didn’t become solvent until 31. Now that we are out of school and working, however, we are rapidly accumulating wealth. For many professions, there is an educational delay that is later recompensed by a higher pay rate, but that is not reflected in your model.
Dustin, looks like you guys are definitely above average in terms of education, but we’re primarily focused on wealth.
You can use the work experience column instead of age.
So that’s exactly the problem I’m highlighting. There are many definitions of what constitutes an “above average” person. By labeling this article the way you do, you seem to imply a close correspondence between a person’s quality and a person’s wealth, which seems like a false equivalence. Many famous artists, intellectuals, and saints were notoriously poor. The article would be more aptly named “The Average Net Worth for the Richest 20%, By Age,” which might be even more aptly named “How Much $$ You Would Have in the 95th percentile of wealth for Your Age Group.” These numbers are just guesses, but one further point they make is that I’m confused why you use the average rather than the median, since that is vastly skewed by the wealth of the 1%.
You are right that a person could use the “Years Worked” column, which would then represent an estimate of the average wealth of an individual in some high wealth percentile who has only worked for X years. However, that would be a poor proxy for the different economic track typically enjoyed by those with higher educations, since the entire curve of wealth building looks different for different education levels.
I understand you’re frustrated that you don’t fall into the above average net worth estimations. This has been common feedback by many who get a lot of education. Just simply blaze your own trail Dustin and make your own rules. These figures are just what I believe in.
I also went to grad school, got MS and PhD degrees in engineering, and started formal employment when I was 30. I started off with a negative net worth. I have been married for 18 years, have 3 kids and my wife does not work. At 43 –even though I have worked 13 years– my net worth is about what your model predicts for my age group. I started late, but was able to catch up thanks in part to higher education. I also keep good control of my expenses and invest mostly in ETFs.
Hi JC,
Thanks for sharing your story!
You might like this post:
Why The Median 401k Is So Low
So this basically proves my earlier point. Because of his additional education, JC was able, in 13 years of working, to “catch up” to the net worth of a person who began working 8 years earlier. And after those 13 years, JC’s wealth-building will likely outpace the average. So JC’s claim is that his net worth curve looks entirely different than that of a person who starts working right out of college, with his particular equilibrium point happening to occur at age 43.
I guess I would never work for FS since my gpa was oh let’s say less than most. I was working since I was twelve albeit illegally but making the bucks nonetheless. At 35 I am very well off and I don’t know the gpa of anyone who works for me. My team knows that a spiffy resumes and connections to big names don’t mean a thing to me. Results, work ethic, personal values and creative and analytical thinking are all that matters in my business. Everyone has their ideas as to what they look for in a worker.
And that doesn’t mean you can’t be successful. There are plenty of paths to success and wealth!
As a well-compensated ~28 year old HF professional in NYC from a prestigious top 10 school, these numbers look exactly correct to me and are actually slightly conservative projections of my last 6 years of net wealth. I know you’re taking a lot of flak from haters, FinancialSamurai, but my own experiences have aligned quite closely with your figures. And you are far, far too kind to some of these over-educated haters (i.e, Dustin Faeder) who are sore about not making the list because they chose to dick around with a Masters in Philosophy from Tufts. Dustin, I guarantee if you’d made it into Big Law you’d be well into this list by 30. Instead you’re a criminal defense attorney in Tennessee, lol. (https://www.oneshrewddude.com/)
Pride comes before the fall. Be careful.
Hi all,
Interesting article and comments. Would love to hear from those who got into real estate with little/no formal education in finance/real estate, because my degree is in something else entirely. Especially interested in which books or resources you used to educate yourself. Although not a genius (like many of you seem), I’m a bit of an autodidact and very interested in the passive income (even if only supplemental to my low six-figure income) that owning properties can provide. Eventually want to manage multiple properties and get out of corporate America, and start “living absolutely free” as Samurai puts it. I’d then be able to focus more on my creative/artistic endeavors.
Much appreciated,
AD
We went heavy into Real Estate right out of school and had 12 or 14 properties when I “retired” at 31 after our son was born. I still did a lot of buying (many at the Courthouse), selling, 1031’s, etc. and built the portfolio up to 20+. We also have 3 personal homes – buying our summer home at 29. I had no “formal” training (I was an Econ major in College and then went to Law School at night while working a 9-5). I did grow up with a mother who owned and managed small (4 or 5 unit) apartment houses and spent many a summer painting and cleaning those places. She was a School Nurse. I used to enjoy going with her to look at prospective purchases – but had no exposure to the actual “numbers”. I read everything I could get my hands on (“Nothing Down” comes to mind). These were years (decades) before any info was available on-line. Now, people can learn as much as they want by simply going on-line. I’d recommend a great web site (I have no financial interest in it), but I don’t know if that is allowed here. It’s free to join and everyone is friendly and helpful (from newbies to seasoned mega-investors). It’s only been during the past 5 or 6 yrs that my husband’s “outside” activities have caught-up with our RE NW.
I haven’t looked in to any studies regarding the generational wealth transfer that is expected. I expect about 500K (the minimum would be 350K coming from an insurance policy that I own) – not big bucks in the scheme of things. Nothing from my husbands side. In fact, we have been partially supporting my inlaws (and sister) for over 15yrs. I know that my 20 something will be getting a lot, albeit 25 yrs down the road. We are, however, going to start “gifting” the max this year and we have funded his Roth (since he was 16 and still do today). We paid cash for his Ivy education (at our Alma Mater). For comparison sake, we were making 200K at age 30 – 25yrs ago. I don’t know what that would be in today’s dollars. I remember computing nw at 33 and it was 850K. By our early 40’s, it was about 2.5mil. We consider ourselves upper-middle class (not wealthy or rich). On a side note, I find it interesting that many “younger” posters here separate what each spouse has. We never have thought in those terms, but, then again, we married 3 wks after college graduation (with a negative net worth – husband had college loans). We came out of school in 1980, making 14K and 12K.
We bought our first house at age 22 and had 10 by 30yrs old. We never over-spent when we were young. We took a lot of educated risks and now, in our 50’s, have a nw of 14mil. I handle the RE (20+ rentals) and my husband is a highly compensated executive. No one ever gave us anything. We did things outside of the 9-5 to get wealthy. My kid bought his first rental at age 20 and is worth about 200K at age 25. Yes – we did give him the downpayment. He is a smart kid and makes about 100K. You probably won’t achieve wealth from your 9-5. Your 9-5 allows you the opportunity to get in to other investments. You must not get so caught-up in the day-to-day that you lose sight of the real opportunities. Think outside the box and put some time in to it EARLY. We made sick $$$ in our 20’s, but not through the 9-5.
$14 million is big bucks! Congrats.
I do believe a massive generational wealth transfer is why everything will be OK, hooray! The help with your sons downpayment is a great example of this. Check out the linked post in the comment and let me know your thoughts.
I graduated from a lousy school with a 2.8 GPA. I skipped most classes because it was old guys teaching old stuff. Instead I learned how to identify challenges and solve them with critical thinking – a far more universal skill. Now I’m killing it at a prominent space industry distruptor, whose name I don’t care to mention. Prior to that I was at two successful startups in SV who are at the core of technology you use dozens of times per day.
Some jobs [most in finance probably] require people who can follow instructions. In which case, grades might be a good indicator of how well a person conforms and performs to standards. Other jobs, like those that are paving new ground for humanity, require people to invent things that can’t be graded on anything other than success. In which case, deviations from the norm combined with raw talent are probably a better indicator of success.
As a fellow above-average person I propose a change to bullet (1):
“A person who is assertive and can develop skills that deliver value to and assure success within his/her environment.”
Email/web/full name excluded for the sake of my employer(s)
Hello! I have been reading this website for awhile but this is my first post! :) I think I’m on par for my age. 33, 350k net worth (290k in 401k and Roth IRA and 60k in pension) I plan on leaving my job due to military transfer in a few years and will be rolling my pension into an IRA since who knows if it will be there in 30+ years. My husband has another 150k in his 401k and Roth. We are working on early retirement. He has 8 years left in the military and I’d love for him to be able to relax after that. He is about to leave for his 5th deployment and we want to enjoy life after the military. Early retirement can be done with a little hard work and financial knowledge! I started work with a telecommunications company at age 19 and went to college while working. It was not easy but it gave me the ability to begin saving early (started my Roth at 19 and always contributed the max, contributed around 10% to 401k in beginning but just started maxing out a few years ago) I was fortunate enough for have my employer help with tuition reimbursement of 3k per year but I payed the rest myself as I went and graduated with no student loans. We have no car payments, only a mortgage. But our goal is to pay that off before he retires from the military in 8 years. No kids (it’s a little hard to do when he is constantly gone) but hopefully that will happen in a year or so. I also credit no children with the ability to save, although some people would have spent that money on nicer cars, homes, etc. This is not to brag but give my story and how I made it happen! )
What an incredible bunch of drivel.
I have a HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA (much like BILL GATES), and have a net worth of $2,000,000. I invested in real estate that I bought outright (NO MORTGAGES), have a steady rental income of $15,000 per month and an appreciating portfolio.
I find your articles intriguing. Thanks for helping me think about the future. I’m 40 years old and worked for an HR Outsourcing firm for 14 years consulting on and working with DC and DB plans. I spoke with many clients and their employees and thought it was so sad so many 50+ year olds didn’t even have $70K or $80K in their 401(k) plans; these were also employees who were making decent money- $60K+/year. I always remember my Dad telling me to save as much as early as I can in my 401(k) plan. I feel that was revolutionary coming from an immigrant from Lithuania who never even finished middle school. I’m proud him and my Mom saved a decent amount for retirement. Unfortunately they have both passed away but left me with some good saving habits.
I’ve saved around $320K in my 401(k) plan so far and have another $50K in my old ESOP. My wife is a year younger and has $130K. I feel comfortable where we are, even though it’s low according to your “what should you have saved by XX chart.” I feel your chart is the ideal amount to save but not very realistic for many because of low earning potential out of school and debt. I was fortunate and saved a decent amount living at home but I was only making $26K out of school.
Regarding grades, my thought is the most important part is to graduate. I had a high 2 GPA from a state school in IL. I feel many more employers now ask for and take into consideration a candidate’s GPA, but I feel it doesn’t directly correlate to high job performance. The same goes with graduate degrees, especially when a candidate goes straight from their bachelors to their masters. I always recommend gaining true work experience before going back to school. The job market is saturated with many grad degrees with little experience. I still value experience but it’s unfortunate many just look at grades and degrees. As you’ve said and others have commented, it’s important to look at the whole person when assessing candidates.
My current role is an HR leader in health care making decent living financially (I know that’s relative though).
Thanks again.
EZ
I have to imagine most of the people on here are full of it. How are you 24 with a net worth of $100k? Or these guys that are in their 30s saying they have $500k.. You have to all come from money, there’s just no way these numbers are even possible unless you’re making $250k a year.
My wife and I started bringing in about $110k a year after taxes starting 2 years ago (I’m 30)
our monthly bills come out to about $7,000 so that leaves us with $26,000 a year. When you figure nights out, gifts, extra junk, that leaves me with about $15,000 to put away each year. I currently have a net worth of about $50k, with $25k in my investments. (would have been more if I didn’t have to pay for an engagement ring and part of a wedding last year) Even if I continue to put $15,000 a year away, and average 20% returns I’ll still have under $175k by the time I’m 35… someone please tell me what I’m doing wrong? FYI I’m doing way better than most people I know. I do know one guy that has been maxing out his 401k since he was like 22 and has about $65k in there, but he still lives at home with his parents at age 29!
Eric, it’s glaringly obvious what you’re doing wrong – “our monthly bills come out to about $7,000”
I can’t even imagine how your monthly spending is that high. Presumably there’s some major student loan debt in there – but even so, those are some high expenses! You don’t mention children so I assume it’s just the two of you.
My wife and I are also 30, and make a bit more than you; however, we’re able to increase our net worth by nearly 50% of our incomes each year (mostly by saving…partly through asset appreciation) and give away about 25% of our income. Our basic spending each month is well under half of yours, even with a baby.
You need to track where your money goes. An average American household brings home less than half of what you and your wife make, you definitely can find rooms to trim your expenses. When I was your age my husband and I made about what you make. We lived in a one bedroom apartment, ate at home most of the time, walked the park as a recreation, did staycations instead of vacations, invite friends over instead of going out (invest in a good margarita machine). In two years we saved $100k, roughly half the take home and didn’t even feel like we didn’t have fun. Watching our nest eggs grow is fun.
Tracking where your money goes is EXACTLY what everybody should do! How many times have we withdrawn money from the ATM machine and then several days later we are wondering WHERE IT ALL WENT?! Now imagine if we don’t track our net worth and expenses, then that’s a disaster.
I recommend everybody sign up for Personal Capital, a free financial tools program that tracks your net worth for you, sends you an e-mail once a week with the latest net worth amount, and highlights your portfolio performance. You can manage your expenses and income and analyze your portfolios for excessive fees too. They’ve got their software as an app for the iPhone or Android too.
One we start knowing where our money is going, we can start optimizing our wealth. You saving $100,000 is awesome in two years, especially since it’s half your take home. Well done!
I made my money by living small in my twenties. When I graduated college, I used a VA loan to buy a triplex and lived in the middle crappy unit while I fixed it up and lived there essentially rent free. Once it was fixed up, I used the money I saved to buy another triplex and did the same thing. I bought another triplex and lived in the crappy unit while I fixed it up. At that point, I had $1000 in cash flow with a free place to live and I was 24 years old. I am 36 now and own a B&B, and own 30 units with a net worth about $650,000. It all started by living small when I was young. Would I be willing to live like that now? Hell no!! That is why I did it when I was 22 and used to the college lifestyle.
Wow, 30 units is a lot! Where do you own these properties? In SF, one unit would be at least $600,000, and a one bedroom, maybe.
You are exactly right about doing this stuff in our 20s, b/c we won’t want to hustle as much when we are older.
Not full of it, but definitely more frugal… Whatever you are doing to have a monthly budget of 7k means you haven’t yet recognized the difference between necessity and personal choice.
I started out of university with a salary of 30k, and prioritized putting the max in my 401k that I was allowed. I am now mid-30s and still make less than 6 figures a year (some of the sciences really don’t pay all that great!), but I have maxed out my 401k every year that I’ve had one (there were two years where my employer didn’t have one), and have invested carefully and consistently. I have lived in a tiny studio apartment for more than 12 years in order to save up enough cash to buy a home. While I don’t live in SF, I do in another high cost of living area in California where even a fixer upper starter home will run you around 500k. Not coming from a family with a ton of money, I wasn’t yet in a position to risk it all and purchase when the market here began to skyrocket back in 2001. Instead, I opted for sacrifice and a little extra patience while continuing to try to live like a starving college student. Family and friends have heckled me for years, but I finally got my break earlier this year when I managed to land a duplex in a good neighborhood in town as a result of having invested the difference I saved between living in luxury for the past 12 years (having a larger apartment) or scrimping a bit (living in my shack and sucking it up). Even after buying the property, I have 300k in my 401k, around 60k in stocks and bonds, and 20k in my savings/checking. The duplex came with tenants that get to finish out their leases, so I am still just renting a room in town (which definitely sucks), but I am saving up even more money in the meantime. Net worth clocks in at about 630k. Monthly expenses = about $1200. I worked to pay my own way through school (UC) and came out with, while perhaps not the GPA I wanted, 0 debt. I worked my butt off to do it, and I still do today. I don’t work at my ‘dream job’ – and I don’t make oodles of dough – but my job has survived the economic downturn and has provided me with a roof over my head, groceries and enough extra money to save for retirement and to indulge in my various hobbies (within reason). I have only owned 2 cars – both bought used and with cash (I splurged last year and upgraded from my 97 corolla to an 08 Honda fit). I eat out, but usually for breakfast rather than dinner, and while I love to travel, I usually only manage to take one big trip a year, and I always budget for it in advance. I don’t try to keep up with the Joneses or my more affluent friends. Those that don’t respect or understand that I can’t always eat out at the 5 star restaurant, take the cruise to Mexico, or hop a flight to go skiing in Colorado with them and still maintain my financial solvency/independence aren’t really friends (or prospective spouses/partners!)… and I learned early on to eventually distance myself from them. When I am tempted to waver from my long-term plan I just remembering/thinking about where I want to be when I am my parents’ ages. I have seen how their individual work ethics, investment strategies, personal life decisions (divorce, home purchases, relocations for jobs/homes – and timing of same) and plain old dumb luck (good and bad) have impacted them – often for the worse. Who knows if I’ll be able to ever retire? I don’t. Not sure I’ll want to anyway. BUT – I do hope to have the duplex paid off by the time I’m 55… and to move up a little bit from my backpacker’s budget when I travel. After that, who knows!
How long did it take you to get to 300k in your 401k?
about 12 years, and my employer does a 3% match.
7000 in monthly payments? Wow. That is crazy. Mine are 2200 on a tight budget, and 4200 if I allow for additional payments on the house, extra to savings, and extra spending for personal endeavors. 7000 is an extravagant lifestyle even for New York or SF. Seriously. And if you are those places you would be making way more than an extra 25k a year. And that is two people. Me think you need an honest reassessment of your financial life.
If he was maxing out his 401K for 7 straight years, his contributions would have been way more than $69,000… let alone all of his capital gains realized in that period. What has been the average annual returns in the past 7 years… conservatively at LEAST 10%.
I’d imagine he’d be closer to 150k than 69k. Just sayin.
I don’t believe grades should matter. I kept a 4.0 GPA and didn’t bother finishing college when I realized that employers don’t really care. I taught myself finance and did better than the people in grad school. Then again, I love playing with numbers so finance and accounting came with ease. No employer has ever asked me for my GPA and when they see I didn’t finish college and ask why, I am honest about it. I was able to sell myself, without the added padding. My current salary is six figures. My friends who went on to grad school don’t even make close to what I do and they have major debt still from school.
It’s a good post. Essentially what your financial life *could be* if you have batted 1.000. At 35 I’m $100k behind the $418k bogey, due to some unlucky events (divorce), some lucky events (buying a foreclosed property at a $50k discount to fair value), and typical early 20s lifestyling. But I don’t consider the $418k completely unfair.
I’m with the author that grades often do matter. I’m shocked Google doesn’t have minimums, unless you’re a coding unicorn or data scientist PhD. On Wall Street, GPA minimums are the norm even for experienced hires at most mutual funds, hedge funds, sell side.
Jewie, that’s a great analogy and yes you are correct. Maybe not batting 1.000, but batting 0.700. I strongly believe many people can achieve these results.
Why is the delusional belief that grades matter needed to be considered above average. There is no significant correlation between good grades and higher salaries. When I completed my degree in Physics I had a 2.8 and had several job offers at graduation including Google where I ended up deciding to work.
Going to college is important. Choosing a major employers respect is important. Choosing classes that are challenging and relevant to your career goals is important. Grades do not matter at all. Nobody has ever asked me my GPA since I graduated. Employers do not care.
If anything focusing on grades encourages people to take easier classes and less classes per term. Only taking on as much as you can do perfectly may be a good way to keep your GPA up in school, but once you graduate you will be unable to adapt to the real world where that just isn’t practical.
Impressive you got into Google with. 2.8 GPA. Where did you go and how did you get your foot in the door? Of the googles I’ve asked, several have said they have a minimum GPA cut off,
To me, grades do matter. I work at a Fortune 500 company and when I interview people, I do look at their grades, but it’s only just one aspect of a person and would never hire on grades alone.
Why does a good GPA matter? It shows to me that the person was disciplined in getting their assignments done, on time, and did a good job to deserve the grade they were given. If I had to interview a person with a 2.8 GPA right out of school, they better be damn great in the other areas I look at.
I agree completely. Good grades to me help signal good work ethic and Multi-tasking skills potentially.
All else being equal, of course if rather have the person with a 3.8 vs a 2.8!
GPA in Science degree are generally overlooked in the industry… (have a 2.8 GPA in physics who have some understanding of advanced Calculus, optics, and eletronics are at far better position then folks who has a 4.0 GPA in humanities (which go back to you said “a degree that employers respected”). With good experience, a 2.8 phyical science or math graduate shouldn’t have too much trouble getting a job in a great company (but consider that they may not get into grad school which lower their chance of getting promoted).
I don’t know about that Ivan. If someone got a 2.8, that’s a C+ average. There must have been some heavy, heavy partying, irresponsibility, lack of focus or something else going on as a result.
If you were an employer, would you risk it over a candidate with a 3.3, all things being equal? There are tons of 3.0+ students out there looking for a job.
I’m going to disagree on this, to the extent of my experiences. I work for a fortune 250 company, and as a hiring manager have interviewed hundreds of candidates over the past 15 years. I put much more value on those that contributed to paying for their education and got a “C” average than one who got a 3.0+ but never actually had to work and whose education was paid for by parents. “Partying” is a part of most grads experience, but understanding work ethic is not necessarily understood by straight A students. Have never asked or cared during an interview…and upon post reflection have seen that our most successful employees not only had a sub 3.0 average, they are also amongst the hardest working and successful employees. That said..there are also those with above and below 3.0 that have failed… In the end, it’s about the whole person, their experience, and most importantly about their drive that determines their eventual success or failure.
Have you read this post? Grades Don’t Matter
I think it is GREAT that you accept sub 3.0 GPA students who may have partied too much. Someone has to, otherwise, there might be a lot of problems with a large part of the population in getting jobs.
Professions and grades are not related to each other so I’m not sure why you’d mix up the two.
Someone with a BA is most likely not looking for a job that requires a BS degree and vice versa. That’s downright foolish when the job says a B.S. degree required to do the job.
We already know that people with STEM degrees on average earn more than those with non-STEM degrees and that there is a higher demand for those with STEM degrees than non-STEM.
What I’m saying is when I’m interviewing a bunch of candidates for a particular job, they are usually candidates with the similar specializations/skills. for example, a bunch of chip designers. There’s not going to be a professional journalist, librarian, or teacher in those list of candidates when I’m comparing GPAs.
Financial Sameria, it sounds like you are more familiar with lower level colleges. At top schools, a 2.8 GPA in an engineering track or Physics is pretty good. I am sure if he chose Physics at a top university, he wasn’t interested in getting as much partying in as possible.
If you think William and Mary and Berkeley are lower level colleges, then yes.
But nobody with under a 3.0, more like under a 3.5 would even get a response at Goldman Sachs, where I started. The same went for places like McKinsey, Bain, private equity shops etc.
Why would a company bother interviewing a 2.8 in engineering when they have tons of 3.8s in engineering?
Where did you go to school, what was your GPA and what are you doing now?
@Financial Samurai: I had a 2.8 GPA in EE from a respected engineering school and had no problem getting offers. I was asked about it during interviews but I could show that I had a more practical grasp on problem solving than theoretical during the interviews – that’s the type of job I was applying for and the type of job I got. I had a physics professor once who said “it’s now what you know, rather its about knowing where to find it”… words I live by.
It depends on so many things beyond just GPA. Saying “all things being equal” is meaningless because no two people are the same, nor are all job requirements dependent on theory or book learning.
Having said that, I’d also like to say thank you for such an excellent article. It really helped me to understand where I should be at my age and gave me some peace of mind.
No problem Lockon. Glad you were able to get a good offer with a 2.8 GPA. When you’re in a hiring position, if not already, you will probably also give those with similar GPAs more of a chance, and that’s good.
Glad you found the article useful!
I had an 2.80 GPA in Electrical Engineering. I also worked my way through college working 30-40 hours a week. Compare me to someone who got a 3.8 is that they probably did not work and had enough time to study where I did not. Also most were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Grades do not necessarily point to intelligence or worth ethic. I am in a position to hire engineers and techs and I can tell you I could care less about grades.
I think we tend to pivot towards what we know. If we didn’t do well, then we are more forgiving of those who also didn’t do as well.
Good you are giving other 2.8 GPAs a chance! The question is, would you let your kids get below a 3.0 GPA?
I help to hire and direct talent. I think, and agree with the posters that engineering (my discipline) is the misnomer. I lead my team, recommend whom we hire and don’t really consider grades. We aren’t looking at people for what a talking head nominated as their worth on a 4.0 scale – we want proactive problem solvers who can do the work we give them.
I would take a 2.8 in Physics and weigh that person equally the same as any other candidate. In IT we are looking for talent. Having good grades is sufficient but not necessary to explain someone is talented.
I 2nd Rob and add that grades are only a small part especially in Engineering. What you learn in school is only a fraction of what makes a person succesful. The smartest person in the world is useless if they can not work with people and cannot explain their thoughts clearly.
I would take work ethic and can do attitude anytime over somebody with grades.
You need to do your homework on the average GPAs at schools like Berkeley. The technical degrees tend to have much lower GPAs (there are very few 3.8s with everything graded on a curve). These same students had very high GPAs entering college. I could understand if you have a finance degree, then the average GPA is going to be (and needs to be) higher.
Where did you go to school: Georgia Tech
What was your GPA: 2.9
What are you doing now? CFO
Grade point is one of the few measures of success an interviewer has of a person who is just graduating college if that graduate has no other pertinent experience that applies.
That said, companies who use grade point as their main criteria for hiring are missing the boat big time IME. I’ve been hiring and working with technical types (mostly engineers) for over 30 years now. Some of the best “problem solvers” i’ve hired and worked with were not 4 points.
4 pointers tend to be good at theory that is already printed in a book somewhere. They usually fall flat on their face when they have to manipulate the formulae and/or the problem solving method beyond what they’ve memorized in a book. Which happens all the time in engineering fields.
Of course i’m generalizing here as i’ve also dealt with 4 pointers that were VERY good at application as well. It’s just been my experience that folks with lower grade points tend to be more open to the possiblity that they are not always right and tend seek out other, better solutions.
High grade point many times mean larger ego. Much larger! Which is a huge problem in technical fields.
Why can’t higher GPA mean a harder worker instead?
There are enough boats coming in with high GPAs.
Actually, technical degrees tend to have lower graduating GPAs than their humanities and social science counterparts. I speak from this personally as an ME grad and as a tutor. The engineering programs usually are at least 130+ units programs to be completed in 4 years as opposed to other degrees. Chemical Engineering may be a 150 unit program and kids are expected to graduate in 4 years as well. The school I went to, albeit an average college, has plenty of 1-unit lab courses for engineers which really ended up being 3-6 hours of lab/lecture per week.
Albeit dated, here are some results from a good college:
https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/uc-transfers/900945-average-gpa-of-graduating-students-by-major.html
The “average” graduating GPA for STEM is in the range 2.7-3.2 and about 3-4 for social sciences and business, and the top of the ladder is almost exclusively linguistics.
I’m so glad that the financial and tech titans of the world aren’t made of up of linguists since a 4.0 is always better than a 2.8 GPA ceteris paribus.
I too have conducted many interviews as an executive and have not one time discussed GPA’s during an interview. Its important to pass to obtain a degree, however, some do not test well and is not a good representation of a persons skills. Many tests are designed to have only one correct answer however there is a runner up with a minor discrepancy that determines the difference in a correct answer. So, it may better test some attention to detail but does not define a persons ability. Sure there are many opinions on the topic and quite frankly there is no right answer. The guy who made it into Google may have had to take some sort of engineering test at Google as part of the interview process so they could assess his skills which is a much more effective method than testing for correct answers….
As a business owner and also someone who’s worked in pretty high visibility positions, I know that grades don’t mean much. I understand that some people place more value on them than others, but it really is all about who you know and how well you know your stuff.
I beat out people with higher degrees and grades than me basically every single time I interviewed for a job because I was better than them. I don’t say that to be arrogant, but it was just true. I made it a point to do my own thing in school, and, in fact, just stopped going because I didn’t feel I was learning anything.
Is my situation common? Perhaps not. But attitude and skill mean more to most employers than a piece of paper. Granted, there are jobs that I would want someone to have gotten good grades and worked diligently (a doctor, or tax accountant perhaps), but in general, I don’t think as many employers as people think really care about grades at all. It’s about how you carry yourself, how well you can demonstrate your knowledge of the applied subject matter, how well you can communicate your skills, and who you know.
If the paradigm that grades and educational institution matter were true, there’s no conceivable reason why I should have beaten out people with masters degrees when I didn’t even have a bachelors degree. It’s about knowledge and confidence above most else. Fortunately, I only answer to myself as a boss now. So I make the rules. But if I were to go out into the “regular” job market again, I have no doubt I’d beat out most college grads because I have more experience and skill than they do…and it shows. I won’t lie, I go into an interviews with confidence. I’m not intimidated by interviewers. But again, I’ve been to war too, so I guess that prepares you for anything too.
I agree with Joeseph, grades do not matter. There is a known correlation between high gpa and life time W2… Where the same person who received a mid level gpa due to working full time during college while volunteering their time at big brothers big sisters, and starting their own company is clearly someone I’d rather hire/partner with/be friends with/trust. At my company gpa is the last thing we ask an applicant and only if we don’t find enough other impressive life experiences. Everyone is different, to stereotype is to overgeneralize, however guys like Joeseph with a 2.8 typically are more well read, have higher work ethic, are all around more socially adept, and think much more creatively, than their 3.8 gpa counterparts. This is a reflection of the work theory popularized and proved by Captain Christopher Lee who postulated the idea of heads down time vs heads up time. If anyone spends all their time buried in the books, they will do well with gpa but miss so much of life around them, and vice vs. 2.8 gpa’s make better workers, friends, entrepreneurs, inventors, and investors… On another note, I’d take the bet that the graduating class of Any state college vs any Ivy League school has higher mean net worth per student over their lifetime.
If you’re the CEO of your company and happier with hiring 2.8 GPA candidates that is great. I’d just rather own and invest in a company that hires 3.8 GPA candidates no matter where they went to school. Work ethic cannot be overemphasized.
A big 4 accounting firm won’t even look at someone with a GPA lower than a 3.0. I worked for one for 5+ years and was involved with recruiting during my employment. A good GPA is vitally important in that field.
I knew someone who got a job at Deloitte with a 2.6GPA. Her major was Aerospace Engineering. Sorry but Engineering and Business aren’t in the same realm. People who couldn’t hack it in Engineering went to the Business school.
Yikes, no wonder why Deloitte is having trouble competing in strategy consulting against McKinsey, Bain, BCG where they would never hire someone with that low of a GPA. 2.6 GPA out of 4.0 is literally kicking back and not coming into class.
So many of my classmates at Bschool were engineers because they were stuck in their jobs and wanted to climb, but couldn’t bc they were pigeon holed.
I’m not sure where Samurai is getting their information on Deloitte struggling with the likes of Bain, McKinsey, etc. Haven’t they been ranked #1 global consulting firm by Kennedy for aggregate revenue for the last 4-5 years in a row? Anyway, I think Spaztastic brings up a good point…a degree in Aerospace Engineering is a lot different than a BS in Markting etc.
Can we please drop the GPA nonsense. It’s getting absurd.
I don’t agree. I graduated summa cum laude in geophysics and I never once used my degree. What is did take away from college was fortitude. The fortitude to graduate with a 3.96 and a senior research paper that could have been published, was a great accomplishment. It showed me that I am a capable human being and that I can tackle anything I chose when I apply myself. That is invaluable in business, personal life, and all endeavors. You have to be kidding me if you don’t think reputable firms whose salaries are commensurate to success do not look at GPA and honorary decrees like summa cum laude as a basis for hiring. Trust me when I tell you, that when I see honors mentions I immediately take notice. I know how hard I had to work to make that happen, and no one escapes the effort when achieving honorary mention from a top IT school in this nation. It is a badge of grueling mental endurance. It is a worthy one. It is noticed.
Hello,
I’m 29.5 years of age. I’ve been working for 6 years. My parents helped me pay for 2 years of college I paid for the last 3 years. I graduated with a total of 27K USD in debt. I got my first job making $31,200 USD after tax. I worked there for 1 year 2 months before I got laid off early 2010(during the recession, I was working in oil and gas). My first year of working I lived at home with my mother for 2 years to save extra cash and drove a 1995 toyota corolla that was fully paid off. The first year of working I focused on saving every dollar possible. I was able to stay on a budget of around $100 USD per week for food and gas. I didn’t eat out for lunch and ate before meeting up friends at happy hour. After I was laid off I had about 25K in Cash and stocks. Luckily I started making money as the market was crashing so I jumped into the market at the bottom.
I have been unemployed since. I first liquidated my stock account and started an online retailer that failed. I lost approx. $3,000 USD and about 5 months of time. Then I started a food business that didnt take off until early 2011. This business I kept for 2 years and solid it early 2013. After I sold the business I had approx $150,000 K in cash. I sold the 2nd business as I was starting a 3rd business(brick and mortar retail). It has now been a little over a year and I currently have about $125,000 USD in the stock market(managed by a financial advisor) and $75,000 USD in cash, no home equity. By 30 which is only 5 months away I should be worth close to $275,000 USD(business worth not included). I know I’m ahead but I still feel behind. I am currently looking to start a new business or looking to get into real estate. Any tips?
None of my friends want to open up about their personal finances. Its frustrating!! Why is it so taboo to talk about net worth?
note: I didnt start paying off college loans until last year because the interest was below 3%. I also found it difficult to get a business loan so instead of paying off college debt I decided to use the money to grow my businesses that luckily returned over 3%.
I use a simple excel sheet to track my net worth. I update it every week. I have tried mint but its not too accurate on labeling different purchases.
Tony
Great story Tony about starting at the bottom, taking risks, and working your way up! You’ve come to the right place if you enjoy talking about personal finances.
Your friends are probably a little embarrassed about their personal finances, hence why they don’t want to discuss.
I highly recommend signing up for Personal Capital to track your net worth. They are a free online tool which not only tracks your net worth and sends you a weekly e-mail on how it’s changed with some latest news on the markets, it also analyzes your investments for excessive fees and helps you keep track of your net worth. I found $1,700 a YEAR in investment fees I had no idea I was paying with their free tool!
I used to do Excel once a month for 10 years until I found them. It’s a great tool and a no brainer to use technology to help in growing our wealth.
Good to have you around and keep on saving!
Sam
You should be congratulated for focusing on net worth at such a young age. It is an interesting metric to factor net worth/dollar of income earned, which keeps you focused on both sides of the equation. My experience tells me you are light years ahead of your friends, which will pay huge dividends in terms of overall security later in life. Good job!!
Tony – I think you are doing great and I applaud your entrepenurial spirit in light of challenging economic times. I speak with some credibility as I do financial counseling for the poor. I encourage you to get your debt – school and business – paid down or paid off completely. Once you are debt free you will not believe the no-stress, financial freedom you will have. One book that has really helped me is Dave Ramsey’s “Total Money Makeover”. I do not work for Dave or his organization so am not biased. I followed the process in the book and over several years got completely out of debt – even mortgage debt and am building net worth as I get closer to retirement (I’m 52). But anyway – just wanted to encourage you – you are doing great. Keep under-spending and over-achieving! :)
I’m sort of unique in that i’m an above average black male.
Income about 130k
38 yrs old
Never maxed out 401k. I’ve always pretty much done only enough to meet company match. Wanted my savings to be more evenly distributed therefore always saved more non retirement than retirement. I always figured I may have more pre 65 years on this earth than post 65 years. haha
Net worth of about 512k
33% Stock
32% 401k and IRA
25% Home Equity
8% Cash
2% Art collection
I like this.
I’m an Actuary and my wife is an Anesthesiologist and I’ve done numerous simulations which demonstrate that too much 401(k) money is a very real thing. I’ve consistently been above the upper end of your after tax ranges.
It is demonstrable that blindly contributing 17.5 to a 401(k) pre-tax is not necessarily in someone’s best interest, in particular for very young individuals with long investment horizons that face numerous tax legislation changes and possibility of death and large penalties on distribution to beneficiaries. Of course, the mutual funds would appreciate all they can get in expense fees and if you are strictly trying to increase your mint.com net worth number for bragging rights, it is fastest to do this pre-tax.
FS,
TGIF!
nice post- becoming a fan. and kudos to you reaching financial independence earlier than most.
you’ve managed to create an atmosphere where its common to disclose some financial info- okay, i’ll play the game.
here are some of our long-term goals:
Comfy Retirement – My wife and I are maximizing our 401k. We plan to do so for 25 years earning 7% (adjusted for inflation) – not including the company match or increase in annual limits, the final value ought to do the trick (where we can simply live off the annual interest not including SS# (if any))
$1M Goal in liquid assets- it looks like we won’t break our 1st Million until 7-10 years from now (regarding our saving habits and req RoR) <– Our challenge is to continue to save the same amount, if not more, when we start to have a family. The cost of raising a kid is (gulp) not cheap, and we'll shoot for a hat trick – 3 kids is our capped # (oh gawd).
Our only liability is our mortgage which is 12% of our net income, though we refinanced recently and pay more than what the monthly amount is to help bring the principal down.
Aside from increases in income, proactive budgeting, and our best efforts to remain balance-sheet affluent, any thoughts on how Gen X/Y ought to maximize their cash flow without compromising some of our major life goals? (raising/having a family; buying a new home; actually enjoying some of our income instead of feeling like we're always saving- 41% of our take home is a lonely fight).
I call it a "lonely fight" b/c ever since my wife and I got married we just feel like we're 'alone' in this fight to reach financial independence like you and the like.
we struggle 'mentally' to save while our peers have other sources of income (ahem ahem, still relying on their parents despite finishing college <– I know I'll get criticized for saying that, but hey, its how I feel). My wife and I take pride placing the onus of financial responsibility with us and only us.
In the meantime, our peers are quicker to spend their money on cars and homes (they can't afford). Bottom line, its frustrating. Sorry, I deviated from topic.
Seems to me, so long as you continue to earn more would be the first and only solution — but that too can get old don't you think?
thanks in advance for your thoughts,
DDH
Welcome to my site and thanks for sharing!
Bank of mom and dad is huge for adult children.
Check out this post I just wrote: https://www.financialsamurai.com/a-massive-generational-wealth-transfer-is-why-everything-will-be-ok/
Keep up the good fight. It’s worth it!
Wow, I must be your ‘average’ Guy ;)
Started work at 23, bought a house at 26.. the only difference is the tax-free retirement savings accounts and how they work here in the UK.
Total NW of just over $70k after 4 years of work so I’m a little behind on the target chart but not miles off.
Pretty good site. I, too am, a bit skeptical about some of the numbers people quote here, but I am pretty sure that a lot of folks here were more disciplined or more lucky than me.
For me, all these posts from people who have higher net worth than mine (true or not) just inspires me to set more aggressive goals for myself. Would love to get thoughts on how to do better.
I am 39, married, no kids (planning to have one soon) and an immigrant. Engg. degree + MBA – no parent help. I have had various salary ranges in the US:
– $50K for first 5 yrs
– $75K for next 4 yrs
– $100K for next 3 yrs
– $160K currently for ~3 yrs (new employer is a Bank)
Here is the breakdown of my Net Worth ~480K, which I believe is low for someone my age and current salary:
* Cash: $40K
* Stocks: $95K (pre-tax)
* 401K: $200K (started maximizing only 3 years ago, contributed ~6% before that. New employer match is 7.5%)
* HEquity:$90K
* Other Home: $70K
Minus Debt: Car loan of $15K
Note that I paid off ~$130K in student loan debts thanks to an expensive Ivy League MBA, which is almost break-even from a salary jump/investment viewpoint.
My wife works and makes ~$150K, and has ~$150K in 401K but still has ~$60K in student loan debts and is mostly using her excess income to aggressively pay that down. We both do love to travel (1-2 international, 1-2 domestic trips /yr), have nice cars, eat out quite often – and are not likely to change our lifestyle drastically. I do maintain my budget fairly reasonably. My wife, not so much, and we keep separate accounts for the most part.
So this is as genuine of a post as it gets, for all the skeptics who want to compare and benchmark for what it’s worth.
Welcome to my site Ab, and thanks for sharing!
Could you share some of the reasons why you didn’t start maxing out your 401k before the age of 36 given you were making at least $75,000?
I would count investment properties as assets in a net worth calculation, because they are generating income, and I could sell them and realize a cash gain. But if I sell my primary residence, that money will then go to rent or to another house purchase. I can’t really “use” that money for retirement.
My family is below average based on these calculations, but by lifestyle choice (even though we meet the ten definition points listed above). My husband, at 35, works on average 70-80 hours a week at a non-profit (yearly salary of $37k) and I am a stay-at-home mom to 2 young children (formerly worked as an engineer, with a master’s degree, which is how we managed to save as much as we have). So, I think we have a difference in priorities compared to many of the individuals on this board. We manage to max out our Roths each year, as well as put enough into my husband’s 403B to max out the employer match. So, we are not close to the numbers presented here, but I think we do pretty well all things considered. We have just over $200k in net worth, mostly in mutual funds. We’re also on track to retire by age 65, maintaining our current lifestyle. I say that only to encourage others on the board who may feel “behind”. I think it’s all relative…we choose to live with less, and even though we live frugally and save all that we can, we are still nowhere near the recommended numbers here. Regardless, I was wondering if home equity is supposed to be included in one’s net worth calculation, as shown above. We were hit hard by the housing market crash, and even though we supposedly had over $100k of equity in our home (previously valued over $200k, mortgage of $100k), we still had to bring $20k to the table when we sold several years after the crash…in any case, I have never included our home equity when calculating our net worth. What are your thoughts on this?
Home equity can be calculated into your net worth. It’s the same thing as your mutual funds, if the market crashes, your 200k might be worth half of it or even less.
Yes, but it’s not liquid like a mutual fund. I never really “see” that money. Even if I sell it, I would have to start paying for rent somewhere else, so I wouldn’t actually realize that gain. When I retire, my home equity isn’t something that I can spend to live off of. Unless, of course, I am planning on selling to downsize, then I would be able to pocket the difference between the sales price of the existing home and the new home purchase price.
I see a lot of people doubt you can make a decent amount of money and be relatively young. I am not from a wealthy family and yet I made it just fine. At 34 I am pretty well off and that was due to a lot of HARD work. If you really want something you will find a way to get there. Take it from this single parent who became financially independent in five years without a dime of child support. I still do work because an opportunity presented itself that I just had to take, it was directly in line with what I wanted to do with my life and I thoroughly enjoy what I do. Save, invest (in the market and in yourself) and develop some kind of discipline.
Net worth 7 figures :)
Wow that’s awesome good for you!
I’m 27 years old, work in the financial services industry making about $70K a year. I have $120K in home equity, $37K in stocks, $27K in 401K (contributing 10% with 6% match), $4K in cash just for expenses. Only debt right now is a car that I’m paying down, about $14K. I’m frugal and don’t need material things at all to be happy, just give me my kindle with my books and I’m set. Any suggestions? I think I just need to find a way to make more money! Let the applications begin.
I am 59 YO with 896K in 401K/IRA and 65K in pensions. I have 516K equity in my move that is worth 600K. I figure my net worth is $1.3M- how does this line up with the above average?
Great article. I’m 40 and my husband is 44. He lost his job one year ago and started his own business – which he loves – but now makes about half of his former salary.
Our home is valued at $350,000. Neighbors (comparable) just sold theirs for $372,000. We owe $70,000 and plan to pay off entirely within two years. I’d like to sell – move into a doublewide – and get my cash out, but the husband and three kids love it here..
Other than that we drive a 10 year old mini-van and 10 year old truck (both paid for). No credit card/student loan debt or any other nonsense like that.
So, according to this information I surpass the “average” Joe my age with $280,000 home equity.
However, Retirement accounts are only at $330,000
Cash, DRiPs, savings bonds, 529 plans, and Brokerage accounts total $120,000
Grand total of $730,000 net worth.
Even though my husband lost his job and employer matching 401k – we both contribute the max to our Roth IRA’s ($5500 each). I also have a pension, and contribute an additional $9600 annually to a 403b.
I can’t believe some of the people wanting 10million or more to be happy! I don’t want to work past 50 or 55. My husband is already semi-retired and loving it. I guess the question for each of us is when is “enough” enough? With no mortgage, I can live comfortably on about $30,000 a year – but that’s me – low maintenance and frugal.
Gotta love low maintenance and frugal people. I experienced two years of early retirement and I must say, you need much less than you think to be happy in retirement.
Save on!
This article is bs about saving $17,500 a year into 401k for people who just got out of college.
An average American makes $45k a year.
If you were to put $17.5k into the 401k plan, that leaves you $27.5k before tax. After tax, the take home is $21k thats $1,700 a month.
How could you survive on a $1,700 a month with the most basic requirements below?
Rent: $800
Food: $300
Gas: $150
Phone: $50
Internet: $50
Student loan: $150
Car insurance: $100
Utilities: $150
Entertainment: $200
Car maintenance: $100
Household items such as toilet paper, toothpaste, shampoo, clothing, …$200
You also need to get a life by having friends, families, vacations, dating,…
This article is too bs
The title says Above Average Americans. Why are you using the average?
And yes, I can live off $1,700 in a non major metro area in the US.
I’m 42 years old and feel pretty good about myself until I read this site. I have a 100k year job (plus 20k or so in bonuses) but am a bit behind on the 401k balance. A lot of that has to do with aggressively paying on my house because it makes me feel good to have a a mortgage free house.
My wife who isn’t a saver makes considerably less: around 40k.
Our house is easily worth 300k with no mortgage.
We just paid off a condo worth around 130k (for a college residence–I intend to try to rent it out afterwards, or sell it).
350k in 401k (I’ve recently bumped up my contributions to start maxing it out)
Around 68K in Roth IRAs
Around 80k in 529 plans
Around 50k in an e-trade type of after tax account–this is where I want to start aggressively building up passive income investments, with dividend stocks and REITS.
Around 30k in cash savings.
Both of our jobs currently have defined benefit pension plans in place, both of which we are vested in–I don’t put a dollar figure on those but figure those will provide 3k to 4k in retirement income when we retire, depending upon when we retire and then when we choose to draw it.
I generally don’t count 529 plans in my net worth. Without those Quicken is telling me I’m right at 950k . . so approaching one million. I’ve probably been too conservative and skittish when it comes to 401k savings rates and investment choices.
Which ought to be pretty good. But this site makes me feel poor.
The upshot: I have no mortgage so maybe I can double down on the retirement savings.
What do you think?
I don’t think you should feel “poor” :-)
You deserve credit for how well you’ve done, and you seem to have potential to save even more. When I read many of these posts, I feel motivated and inspired to see how I can improve.
Be inspired.
I consider myself above average. I started out of college with a good IT consulting job making $42k in 1998. Consistently have made 10% per year raises until now. I took your numbers and one would have to save 26% of pre-tax income and make 7% yearly on that to make it work. Thats fairly aggresive I would think. I would put myself in the top 20% of my peers from an income standpoint based on what I know. Perhaps “Above Average” isnt the right description. I would call your numbers probably a top 10% or top 5% scenario.
Sure, that’s a reasonable proposal. How much do you make now, and do you think you have been saving the maximum you could? If not, would your numbers change?
Looking for a little guidance and insight from fellow posters on FS, as I have been impressed by the profound insight that has been offered. I am a recently turned 36 y/o married male, with a 220,000 fluctuating income in a sales positions. I have been fortunate that I have been in a relatively high income sales capacity since 26, however, the type of sales I am involved in is more of young man’s game than the middle age that looms in front of me.
My family’s net worth is as follows:
-Home is worth approx. $386,000- which we have paid off in full.
-Retirement is approx. $321,000-I max out every year, but do not have a company match ( yeah working for a start-up)
-Index Funds-$17,500 via vanguard
-529 plan: 22,000 for our 18 month old, and we have #2 due early August.
-Cash: 161,000 in various accounts due to real estate LLC’s
-Real Estate LLC #1: 2 properties combined value 290,000 that generate 2350.00 a month, I am a member of the LLC with 50% share.
-Real Estate LLC #2: 2 propreties combined value $280,000 and we owe $43,000. I am a member of a LLC, the properties generate 1925.00 a month. We have approx. 800.00 a month in combined mortgages.
Through in a few ancillary items ( an e-trade account, wifes wedding ring, and 2 mid 2000 family sedans), and our total net worth is $1.2 million (depending on the markets, etc).
My game plan was to buy 1-2 100,000 properties a year that would generate at least $1000,00 a month income. However, the property market in the Denver metro has gone nuts, and has most likely made this a pipe dream.
I like my job, but recognize that it is:
1. Volatile-you are only as good as your last quarter.
2. to some degree I have hit a ceiling.
3. As one would expect for the income, it monopolizes my time. With an expanding family, I would like to “live life a little more.”
I am highly disciplined, and have been able to follow a budget the last few years. As you can tell, I am debt adverse. What would be some strategies other readers of Financial Samurai might employ at this point to increase net worth and also create cash producing assets for the elusive passive income we all crave?
Thoughts, as the real estate boom, has forced me to look for other avenues?
You are kind of rich, so my advice to you is to get an advisor. why? easy, because if you dont hire ppl like my boss, then why would my boss hire people like me. Then if I dont get paid, then i dont get educated. Additionally, you seem pretty sophisticated with your llcs. go to barron’s find a legit one you like in the top bsds of the state. Most of them only go for ppl with a mill though meaning you are going to have to liquidate your stuff to even be considered, but juss sell them on your baller salary. Make sure their fees are reasonable at 1%. Anything more, i’d look elsewhere, they are likely charging you higher because they think your account is too small for them in which case find another. Having said that here is some short advice about real estate macro wise:
real estate prices are more stable especially ones that are not publicly traded like yours. You are also renting out these assets, so it is not like your cash flow is negative. If I were you, and I had your expertise in real estate, I would stick to it. Its a more stable game (excluding the last decade, this shit was just bubblicious). You seem to be a worrier who likes to make active decisions. So i advice you to continue what you are doing. Your Real estate is pretty concentrated though, which is a big concern. I like the idea of having multiple 100k real estate assets, dats kind of diversified if you have a mill. Additionally you could buy reits, but they are almost equivalent in volatility to equity markets. I’m going to guess your sales job is correlated to equity markets, so your diversification to real assets is a huge positive, since everyone needs shelter. You are right to have concern though as I am for sure that real estate is going back to its regular crap 3% nominal returns in no time. I dont care how fast the economy picks up, rates will rise with it, and it will hold house prices from goin up, but I doubt it will go down as well since it is a renting asset that you can raise rents from. So as people become richer via higher wages, you can juss collect it through higher rent. Lastly these renters are cash starved and their credit may not close that deal. At the same time, interest rates will rise making their payments higher while banks gobble up their higher income. Meaning: they aint going to buy a home anytime soon meaning your rent income is safe.
In any case, i have no idea about denver specifically, but if you are concerned, then you need to start divesting slowly. Try to get get good prices you dont have to get out right away. Federal reserve will not notch them rates until next year (this is consensus, i think), additionally they are only targeting short term rates, not long term rates, we could end up with a flatter yield curve, meaning short term rates equal long term rates. If you worry this much about the real estate market, then you are not going to be happy with equity markets. That being said equity markets have the highest rate of return at ~10%. Not gonna get a cap rate like that. Anyways good luck! I personally dont think I can hit your number at your age so mad props.
Just so you understand if you have met these numbers you are an absolute financial superstar. I mean you are really doing great. Lightyears ahead of most of the country.
Let’s look at the 2010 data – the median household retirement account balance for workers aged 55 to 64 was $12,000. A third of households had no retirement savings at all! (“401Ks are a disaster” USA Today 3 April 2013.) 75% of Americans nearing retirement age had less than $30,000 in their retirement accounts, which Forbes called “the greatest retirement crisis in American history.
If you are 30 and you have $250K you are seriously crushing it. I just say this because if you are not at these levels don’t beat yourself up. I got crushed by the stock market collapse, and then again by the real estate collapse and then had to take care of a sick family member. These numbers are a great goal but unless you have your own successful business or a six-figure job that you planning on committing 30 years to I’m afraid it’s not going to happen.
Good to see some numbers to compare my net worth with. I am 36 yrs old, have an engineering degree from a top school. I am married, but my wife is still in school and hasn’t started working yet. My numbers are as follows:
House equity: $400K-450K
Various retirement accounts(IRAs, 401Ks, etc.): 385K
Regular investment: 105K
Savings bonds: 25K
Savings account: 77K
Jewelry, gold, etc.: 25K
Looks like I just crossed my first million in last few months…hopefully, it’ll grow much faster once my wife also starts working.
What is odd is when people comment about ‘being on track’ and then stating they have 1.4 million dollars in net worth. My question is, on track for what, you should already be retired!
Depends on where you live and what you count in your net worth.
https://www.financialsamurai.com/why-its-ok-to-include-your-primary-residenc-in-your-net-worth-calculation/
FanacialS,
I dont really want to retire anyways ( but I want to feel retired when I am 35 yr old) by then I want to have properties paid off that paid for everything in case I dont the same income now.
Great table, but slightly misleading title.
“Above average” implies anything above the mean or median net worth for the age bracket.
I’m willing to bet the lower range is the top 10% for the age group and the upper range is the top 1%.
Why? Aside from certain engineering fields, ibd + trading, and high end consulting, very few jobs make more than 70k pre tax after college.
Add on to that the debt load upon graduation. I graduated from a “need blind” school with 80% of tuition + board covered by need based financial aid since my parents are “poor” at 70k annual income and still ended up with 20k in debt after graduation (net 15k of summer internship money and 30k from parents). Not many people am as lucky as I was with finaid or being an only child with supportive parents.
In particular the first 8 years if your chart are very heavily tilted towards the top earners. After Bschool or med school I could see a lot more people definitely catching up to the above average definition. But even that debt for tuition isn’t built in at all. Even the would be entrepreneurs arnt striking it rich in the first 4 years.
To those who’ve commented here: congrats! Virtually everyone’s way ahead of the curve and can probably get a college building named after then by the time they die.
Even if your slightly below the curve your probably way above the actual average.
Hi Sam,
One thing to note about 401(k) contributions…..if one is considered “above average” then it also stands to reason that same person may be treated as a Highly Compensated Employee (HCE), in which case you may not be permitted to make the maximum $17,500 401(k) contribution. I find myself in this situation. Would you suggest contributing more to after-tax accounts to make up for the shortfall?
I am 32, my wife is 28 and we have around $128k in my 401(k), $45k in wife’s solo 401(k), $22k in SEP/back door Roth, $85k in taxable accts. and around $150k in cash equiv. (we are making a down payment on our first home soon). Our vehicles and her wedding ring are valued at $30k for a total net worth around $460k.
Seems we’re on track now but our income fluctuates substantially year to year and we are expecting our first child in 1 month!!
This is a great site! I came across a few articles in the past couple of months when I was doing research on investment properties, personal finance, etc.
I am 28 years old and have been working full-time for 6 years (salary range $70-105k) and worked part-time throughout high school and college. I lived at home for two years after college to pay off student loans (only had $15k in student loans) and saved over 50% after taxes. I did inherit about $30k in my early 20s which I saved for my first investment property. I currently own a couple of investment properties. My numbers are in the above average net worth:
Category Amount
401k $54,233.00
Cash/Stocks $94,426.50
Property Equity $151,610.00
Total $300,269.50
I didn’t max out my 401k because I’m always saving for down payment for investment properties. I’m considering purchasing another investment property but have to come up with 25% down payment for an investment property mortgage. I don’t want to sell my stocks and always keep at least 6 months of living expenses in cash. Do you think it makes sense to take out a loan against my 401k for an investment property?
Very impressive, YY. You are doing so well for someone so young.
I’m no expert, and have made plenty of financial mistakes – so please take this as an opinion and perspective to consider: Only borrow against the 401k for an absolute emergency.
I think it’s OK to slow down a bit… first max your retirement savings, eliminate all debt, and then save enough to buy more properties with full cash offers. You seem to be very good at real estate.
Great website. Thank you.
Have been a single mom w/ no financial support from ex for 12 yrs- have a 14 yr old. (Lost half my 401k to him and got half of zero in return so basically had to start over.)
My current stats:
Age 52
Earn: $50,000. yr
Save 21% to 401k and Roth plus 9.9% company match (balance $235,000)
$30,000 in Savings and Checking acct.
Home value: $325,000. – owe $84,000.
Am I doing enough? Not sure what else I can do, I think I am already doing my best. Any thoughts? Thx.
Hi Margaret,
Given your circumstances, I think you are doing GREAT! Keep up the good work. Excellent home equity, good savings rates. I would try inching up your savings percentage 1% at a time until it starts to hurt. The pain will go away eventually, and you can try saving more.
Best to you!
Sam
Thanks Sam,
I try to be a mom, first and foremost. I struggle w/ the balance of live for today, but save for tomorrow. (I am a workaholic)
The 9.9% match is brand new only after my employer froze our pensions 2 yrs ago. Everything I have, I’ve earned the hard way.
We did just get a one dollar an hour raise so I did raise the 401k 1% to the current 21%. Sometimes I think I am working just to fund my retirement so know what you mean about the pain, but I’ve done it.
I do try to take a vacation every year to show my son the world-my reward for being a penny pinching, frugal single mom.
My mortgage interest rate is 2.75% so happy about that.
Thanks again for your positive words! :)
Margaret
you are managing your expenses and savings in a very smart and reasonable way. Inspiring.
I think you net-worth is on track to exceed $1m before you are in your mid-60s.
For your income, what is the best-case, worst-case, and most-likely over the next 15 years?
Hi Thomas,
Thank you for your encouraging words!
Was out 4 mos last year due to work related injury and surgery so only earned $43,000. (plus some tax free work comp wages) Really missed out on the employer match and my own contribution during this time.
This year on track for around $60,000.- if I keep up all my overtime.
Not much room for raises, a percent here and there but I am ‘topped’ out.
I have 26 years seniority so ‘safe’ as can be in today’s environment.
Worst: Taking another pay cut as I have done twice in 12 years.
Best: Getting some of it back.
Most likely: Pretty much the same as I’ve been earning…
Thank you again. Good to see I’m doing ok.
Hi Margaret,
Ok, back to your original question – about ideas on what more could be done.
From your summary, about half of your net worth is in your home’s equity. Homes can be emotional, so I understand if this idea won’t fly, but I’ll put it out there for you to consider.
If you were to sell your house, and buy a place for around $190k cash, you would be debt-free and double your liquid cash savings. You could then save even more at work, and you wouldn’t have mortgage payments.
I am thinking along the same lines, since we also have a lot of net worth locked up in our house. In a few years, we will also consider selling and buying something for cash.
Keep up the great work.
Thanks for reply Thomas,
Sorry out of town working. Do not have laptop, smartphone, Ipad, Ipod, etc..
I kept the home after my divorce for a stable home environment for my son-rented out 2 rooms to cover 1st and 2nd mortgages and get out of divorce debt. Ex has moved 5 times.
Just looked up the internet value (hmmm?) and says my home is $405,000. I live in CA so homes expensive and condo’s almost as much so not sure about down sizing. Emotional attachment yes but something to think about.
I’ve rented a room out for over 10 yrs, same man that I forget about that income but it does help. His rent has paid for my vacations, home improvements and car payments over the years. I do give up privacy though.
I asked my original question about doing enough as I always feel I am behind the ‘8 ball’ in trying to catch up after my divorce and what I lost- and now being 13 yrs from retirement. I think I will have to work at least to that age to accomplish my retirement goals.
You are on track to be a millionaire before 60. I think you are managing your finances well, and you are smart to seek opinions and ideas for improvement.
I would continue to reduce debt and build savings.
Like Sam said in this post, look into your annual fees for your funds. Ours were high, for funds that were not even outperforming the S&P500.
mad respect. you are basically in same position as my mom so here are a few tips. read your info and your home equity balance is good, really good cash reserves (maybe a lil too much), but your retirement is a bit low @235. Based on this, you shouldnt even contribute to anything roth related. You are most likely better off pre tax 401k investments and prolly want to focus on that until it reaches a million since you are prolly in the 15% to 25% marginal tax rate. At 21% contribution of salary thats ~12k/year. Assuming you are all in equity now, you’ll prolly hit millionare status at 65. Bottom line ditch the roth.
Another question is what type of mortgage is this. 30-year fixed, 15-year fixed, or is this a 5/1 ARM. At that balance, and at those rates, I would assume you are in an ARM, if so, move it to fixed. These are prolly the lowest rates we will see in decades to come. having anything adjustable is silly, unless you plan on selling your house in the next 3 to 5 years. So bottom line get a 30-year fixed mortgage at the same balance if you want to be conservative.
Now here is an optional portion. If I were you, with a steady job with seniority privelege, i’d classify you in the safe zone in terms of having a job in a market downturn which means you can take some risk, now add that you have financial sophistication and are willing to take risk. How to go about it? I’d monetize the house through a refinance, take that money and invest it in the market. You get a tax deductible plus you get the return on the market. You dont have to do this though, you are fine like that especially @2.75 interest rates.
Thanks Wallstreet25 for the reply!
My 2.75% is fixed for a 15 yr mortgage- have about 12-13 yrs left on that. (I did a no fee re-fi a couple years ago.)
Did look at my 401k- have 9% in 401k and 12% in Roth. I am in the 15% tax bracket w/ all my deductions.
I do realize my increased Roth is adding to my gross and possible move TO a higher tax bracket.
Are you telling me to contribute only to 401k, not any to Roth because of my tax bracket?
I was told to slowly start converting my 401k contribution to Roth the older and closer I get to retirement which I started doing hence the now 9/12 split vs. the 15/6 I had before. (Sorry if I ask a dumb question.)Thanks.
1st of lucky you. that mortgage you got 2 yrs ago was prolly 2012 when rates hit their all time low. I’d keep the mortgage.
2nd, If your marginal tax rate is 15%, you can choose either. But that’s good that you notice that your bracket increases when you contribute to a roth vs trad. Bottomline, avoid the 25% tax bracket by increasing trad contributions as needed.
As a general rule of thumb, you put money into roth when you are at a low marginal tax rate, or if you have a large tax deferred account (a 401k) already. But low marginal tax rates take priority.
personally i would never use a roth. i like to offset my income. i prefer to pay taxes later. I also prefer to share the risk with the taxing authority. Lastly, its pretty easy to keep investment taxes to a minimum even in a taxable acct. So a roth juss does not do it for me. But i see why others see the benefits.
Btw, I’m in the processing of getting a hellish mortgage now and I got 2.5% for a 5/1 ARM jumbo. Spreads have narrowed as competition has heated up.
https://www.financialsamurai.com/why-is-it-so-hard-to-get-a-mortgage-a-loan-officers-perspective/
Good article Sam!
My original mortgage was adjustable and about 5-7% w/ a cap of 11%, but oh so up and down and stressed me for 10 years. I no fee re-fied to 3.25%, twice bought down the margin (for 2 x $500.) to get me where I am today. Very happy now!
My ex is paying almost 2.5 times my mortgage (w/ insur and escrow). He never bought w/ all the money I had to give him. Not sure where all the money went, but he has continued to rent (a very nice house in a pretty nice neighborhood) cuz he cannot come up w/ the 20% down payment so understand what you meant in the above article link.
Best of luck to you!!!
Good luck w/
Hi Wallstreet25!
You all really make me think (a good thing..)
I went back and looked at my 401k account. $200,000. in Traditional, and $30,000. in Roth plus $6,000. from company match and bonuses. (Have another $8,000. in another acct) I did not realize this was my split. I did start Roth when it was first offered though.
As far as my taxable amount and looking at the 2014 tax table. I am well under the $49,400. My taxable was $33,000. in 2012 and $25,000. in 2013 due to my work comp injury and time off work. So far year to date I have $24,000. taxable income so think I am ok still w/ all my deductions.
This was a big reminder to keep an eye on my 15% tax bracket.
I ‘should’ be receiving during retirement (at current rate and working to (uugh) 65) about the same income I am earning now.
Thanks for keeping me on my toes!!
Hmm, I though I was doing extremely well! Maybe I am..
Also, I am guessing that most people ( who make less) feel afraid to comment after each person is making 100k or 500k a year.
My wife and I have a business that is growing each year.
Equity on the house is probably close to $160k
cash on hand $80+
cash on hand in business accounts $50k
Merchandise on hand (business) : about 120k that can easily turn into cash
I wouldn’t call the business actual money since it has to be sold first… but I probably have more than 500k there… but without counting business value.
then total NW should be around $410k
We are 26 and 25 yr old. I don’t know anyone my age making more than 100k a year … that’s why I think ( smaller city) we are doing really well in our area.
We probably start making $500k+ a year on 2015 if business keeps growing.
Right now, I know that we can easily get to 2-3 million NW… But, when I get to 35 I want to slow down.. I want to buy two rental properties this year, My idea is to be a landlord and not have a business at all ( to stressful we work 80 hrs a week easily, and the times we work 20 hrs, I look like teller marketer getting calls from employees 10 hr a day.. )
Goal: have 20 houses paid off… maybe when I get to 35-40 yr old. ( so is not much when you think about it, it be around 2.5 million dollars invested)
Your figures do look good. And if you stay on your path, there’s no doubt you’ll gain financial independence before 50.
Everything is relative in personal finance after all. Good luck!
I am over high end for my age. Been maxing out since 22 in 401k cuz I get taxed a lot and do Roth IRA to diversify tax risk and cuz I can’t do trad Ira. No plans to buy a home. I am in the top 10 percent of earners. Came from middle class immigrant background. Full ride scholarship and I am a level 3 cfa candidate. Series 7 and 66. Now some education, home equity real returns is about 0 using shillers data that is over 100 yrs old. People in it made money due to the bubble that started in 90s and a ton of leverage. Equity real returns is about 7 percent using same data or 10 percent nominally. Now I am juss surprised that the people who have money under 40 keep so much in cash.Having said that the economic cycle is prolly in the back end and I would not lever up from your allocation. But the idea that you successful people kept so much cash with no liquidity expectations is retarded to me. I suggest getting an advisor to tell you what to do cuz frankly you may be rich but you have no idea what you are doing. Lastly, don’t time the market. No one can. I saw people up top who ditched the market completely because of a 30 percent gain. Right mind set, you derisk when it’s going up, but still retarded, you never leave the market altogether. Having said that great site.
If you can survive on Wall Street for 10 years, you will have it made, even in today’s somewhat compressed compensation environment. I did 13 years and got out to work on my online media business full time. Survive and you will be rewarded!
I fit the “Above Average Person” definition but I tell you my equity, savings, and overall net worth are WAY WAY WAY below average. Because it’s negative. I managed to pay off my tiny student loan quickly but I started saving for retirement a bit late. But the biggest factor was that I bought my home right before the crash and now I’m $43k underwater :(
I keep pushing forward though and I hope that one day I can be on the low end of your above average estimates!
Its nice to see how others are doing (if for no reason other than as additional reference points), some appear to be doing better/worse than I am. Some of the posts do not appear economically feasible, but maybe a little luck was a part of the equation.
My numbers appear relatively close to the above benchmark, income/net worth:
24: $59,000 / $32,488
25: $63,000 / $64,584
26: $72,219 / $89,830
27: $104,275 / $141,245
28: $140,166 / $185,969
29: $224,150 / $277,220
30: $265,731 / $447,443
31: $246,295 / $571,356
Projected Net Worth (assuming saving 50% of projected gross earnings, 1% interest on cash, 6% gains on investment portfolio and 2% appreciation of rental property that will be mortgage free in 2016):
35: $1,093,712
40: $1,977,062
45: $3,289,926
50: $4,751,967
The single greatest blessing in this long journey towards financial independence was my willingness to take a leap of faith and accept a job opportunity overseas (this accounts for the large jump in income when I was 29). I now work in a country with no income taxes, and after considering all the US tax deductions/credits I only pay US federal income taxes on amounts I earn over ~$160K. This has led to a situation where I can still save over 50% of my gross income, while not only living for the future (e.g. my wife and I take ~4 international trips a year now, we try not to spend too much on material things but find it sensible to ensure exposure to the many amazing things the world has to offer).
Nice projections, and glad you’re doing well. Where overseas are you?
I’m a consultant for Personal Capital and have been using their free software for two and a half years now. When I believe in a no-brainer, I’ll highlight it in relevant articles about investing, savings, and retirement. You’ve got to be proud of what you do.
Mint is great for budgeting. Personal Capital is focused on the mass affluent who have over $100K liquid to invest. PC has a good cash flow tool like Mint.com, but they’ve also got great risk and fees tools.
I currently live in Dubai, a place i would never have thought i would end up. But it’s a great hub (spend about 30% of the year traveling for work and leisure).
I think Personal Capital makes sense as an aggregator when investments are spread across various institutions, but i have close to 250K in various investment accounts that are all with Vanguard, and they have portfolio analytic tools that provide data like fee analysis and risk exposure. We use mint solely to monitor our expenses vs our budget (which when married is a huge factor in maintaining financial order).
Sammy My Boy — Your points #6 through #10 seem to all be grounded in having a positive mindset. What are your favorite books on this topic, if you have any?
I call BS… on Jim
And I will add, My wife is an Aerospace Engineer (P.Eng, 17+yrs) specializing in Propulsion Systems for spacecraft, now more to the Program Management of technical resources… I was an R&D Engineer (P.Eng 15+yrs) specializing in Quality / Reliability with Stanley Black & Decker… I’m just say’in but I know many who work throughout the world in many global industries in highly specialized industries, some of whom own their own companies… again I call BS. At 42/41 our NW is 1.4M, and we are pretty conservative with our conventional investments (self directed retirement funds, non-registered stock accounts and 2 owned properties (home and recreational). At 1.4M NW we are probably in the top 5-10% of households at our age… So Jim, if you feel it necessary to just type, many of us on these sites would rather you do it somewhere else…
To JamesM – chill man… My wife and I both were not privileged, but worked hard to achieve what we have achieved. Yes, some have a helping hand, and well, what’s wrong with that? we both wish we had… Unfortunately I can remember trying to balance my 3 part-time jobs with passing 1st year exams… That’s probably why it took me a couple of extra years to get through…
As to other commenters in this thread especially BM, Sam’s NW guidelines are pretty accurate for those I associate with, who have University degrees (I’m Canadian), or who own their own small businesses The key to financial success, live on less than you have coming in, and learn how to invest the rest. Every goal is achievable with a realistic plan, and the right education – Cheers.
These numbers are only possible with a far above average paying job beginning at age 22. And no student loans, car loans, or spousal debt.
I’m age 25 and just began working after finishing my masters degree in a feild that pays above average. My student loans are near the average and are all from undergrad since I earned a full scholarship for my graduate degree. I still owe some on a modest used car I bought out of need in graduate school. Through loans work and scholarships I paid about 80% of my education costs and my parents helped with the other 20%.
The numbers from age 22-30 make sense for someone who got their bachelors in petroleum engineering and makes 90k out of school.
I would say a good above average measure would be 15k or less in total debt (combined student and car loans), makes $60,000 a year starting out (mostly engineers; average BS starting salary in most feilds is 30-40,000, so 60k is very good). If this person is an above average saver they may reduce expenses to 70% of take home and save the other 30% about 15,000/yr for retirement funds and debt payment. In 5 years assuming some invesent returns and salary growth and they buy a $10,000 used car in this time, I think a networth of about $100,000 is to be expected.
It is from this lint I believe froth accells as there is 5 years of career specialization to leverage raise work compensation and now a substantial amount allowing for business startup capital or home and real estate investment.
Since I’ve been working the last 6 or so months I’ve about cut my negative networth in half but it’ll be about a year before I really have a stable positive networth. It may be even longer if you factor in getting married and shared student loan and vehicle debt, or that could possibly speed things up by sharing living costs.
I think the early wealth progression theorized in this article is too rapid even for above average (they are more like birth rights, having zero debt, low expenses, and a completed education and earning a high income by age 22… Very very rare), and the wealth growth in later years too slow but also more realistic.
I’ve set some aggressive goals for myself regarding wealth building and expect to at least double these figures God be willing.
Reading about others success gives me motivation to keep working hard to become financially independent. I just want to build enough wealth that I won’t be dependent on an employer or the government.
I agree with another poster some
of the success touted in these comments is hard to believe. I’m sure there are the rare successes out there, but they are indeed rare.
Home owning is not the investment it once was and people are a lot more transient than they once were so buying and selling a home every 5 years and the associated costs make renting more desirable, but home owning in the long run is still probably the better choice in most cases if one has the means.
Fortunatley, wealth building for the above average has become easier than it was a generation ago.
BM,
It’s great you’ve got a good attitude on your hands. I would say if one can start earning $50,000/year +/- $5,000 out of college, then one can achieve these figures with normal raises, promotions, and aggressive savings habits.
There’s more difficulty achieving these charts the first 10 years, then the rest of the years. With six months of work experience under your belt, you should look at these charts as a guideline. I think you will SURPRISE yourself at how much you can build.
Good luck! Sam
I got my first real job at age 22 and it only paid $32,000/yr. I don’t have an engineering or business degree, just a BA from a liberal arts college, so I was never going to start out with a huge salary. But that doesn’t mean that I didn’t excel at my job, get raises/promotions and eventually make over $100k/yr before I turned 30. I didn’t start a successful business like many others here, so I’m not a millionaire, but I still consider myself an above average saver and investor since I’m ahead of the charts above. To those who doubt Sam and other success stories, maybe you should reevaluate your own lives and choices instead of assuming everyone else is lying, exaggerating, born with money, etc.
Love it Emily! Great attitude and best to you!
“These numbers are only possible with a far above average paying job beginning at age 22. And no student loans, car loans, or spousal debt.”
There are lots of ways to make these numbers work, and lots of people who make them work. I graduated in 2006 with student loans, and bought a brand new car immediately (in hindsight not the wisest choice). I started out making $40k a year and with regular raises I hit the 6-figure salary mark just last month. My wife makes much less. We both make good salaries, but not “far above average”. However, our net worth is nearly double the upper end of the range for our age. How? By living fairly modestly (having a good sense of what does and doesn’t add value to our lives), spending well below our means, saving and investing constantly, including all sorts of unusual investments, and most importantly, giving generously out of a recognition that we have been blessed with abundance.
@sarah
To your 401k question, if you include contribute anything to a retirement plan (just to get employee match) as you suggest, and make good money, you will be limited and usually not allowed to take any deductions for a traditional ira (no benefit) and be disallowed from contributing to a roth. Therefore your better off maxing your 401k if employee matches. Mine doesn’t, so I max out ira for wife and myself and invest myself.
Hey Jim Morrison, (nice name by the way!)
Don’t be a hater! People read these blogs to learn not put people down! Perhaps maybe learning something will help you increase your net worth! Putting people down for achieving financial independence early is beyond stupid! Grow the hell up!
People are strange! (get it?)
Thank you for the pointer about Personal Capital. It is a great site and app, too.
We did the fee analysis and were surprised at how much it came out to be. I think this single change could bring retirement in closer by one year. I had been lazy about tracking these fees, and that was an expensive mistake.
Here is a statistic for you kids . . .
I would say 80-90% of you are LYING!! The author included.
Now if even half of these are true then it was CLEARLY a case of “mommy and daddy are rich and gave me everything.”
DON’T KEEP LYING TO YOURSELVES!!
I have multiple friends whose families have net worth in the millions and they have good jobs right out of college and aren’t even CLOSE to these numbers.
It seems like you just made this up to make yourself feel better. I would highly doubt if you are making that much you would even bother to write an article like this. . .
This is obvious. . .
You people are in reality, just trying to make yourselves feel better.
It’s true, really reality check yourselves and maybe you’ll see that living in a fantasy world is NOT the same as a basis in reality.
Trust me, and I am in the top end of your “average.”
BUT I HAD ZERO HELP FROM FAMILY ZERO!!!
NO ONE HERE CAN SAY THE SAME!!!
Thanks for your kind comment.
Can you share where your anger is coming from, even as you say “I am in the top end of your average”? Are you saying that it’s OK for you to be in the range, but not everyone else? If so, why do you think you are more special?
There’s a lot more money out there than people think. People are just practicing the Stealth Wealth Movement (link).
Sarcasm noted, thanks for trying to “act like the bigger person” by deflecting the negativity with a “positive” comment, textbook psychology.
I am just saying most of these posters are lying about their TRUE LIQUID net worth, home equity is not stable as we all have seen from the last decade and the same is true for stocks. But of course this is common knowledge for all of you “20s millionaires.”
ETFs, mutual funds, bonds and other supposedly “stable” investments are at an all time low return, and unless you have at least a cumulative 1 million in one of these type of accounts accounts, after taxes, you make little to no meaningful money. (Still better then nothing.)
I am just saying that if even half of these stories are true there was OBVIOUSLY A HELP FROM THE PARENTAL SIDE OF THEIR LIFE and I would guess that zero to no one came from “nothing.” Yet everyone of these “success” stories, no true logistics are mentioned, just random numbers.
If these stories are indeed accurate then your “net worth of the above average person” should read “the net worth of daddy and mommies money helped me.”
As I stated previously, all of my friends whose parents I would consider “well off,” aka 2+ million in worth still graduate with debt, even if it is just a little bit, and MOST of them immediately continue the lifestyle their parents success afforded them their entire lives, meaning your “goals” are pretty much unreachable unless you started out with a substantial nest egg right out of college and forgo having children until your 30s or later.
I was looking for a real article with some depth and strategy and instead I find a generic “shift your assets from A>B>C (early in life) to C>B>A (late in life).
This just feels like a jack off thread where people can come to sniff their own excrement and try and make others, who might actually be looking for some real guidance, feel bad.
Articles like these are pretty worthless, and I would have not been angered at all if I was not just looking for something you can learn from common sense.
Like I said, the fact that you still try and maintain an active posting thread in such a retarded article I would guess that your TRUE net worth isn’t even over 200k and your age is much older then you imply.
If I am wrong then go ahead and feel good about yourself, but I seriously doubt your current job writing “feel good about lying to yourself” threads pays the bills, let alone allowing you to build any kind of meaningful wealth.
Can you share with us where your anger is coming from? I’m sincerely curious as to how this post is making you so upset. Perhaps you’d like to share your story in a guest post (minus the cuss words).
If it makes you happy if I say what my true net worth isn’t even close to 200K, and I’m older, then that’s fine. But please, tell me where all the angst is coming from.
I think you’ll enjoy this post, “How To Build Passive Income For Financial Independence” (link)
You’ll also like this post, “How Does It Feel To Be Financially Independent?” (link)
I’d love to hear your perspective in a comment from each specific post.
Weird how this guy is in your net worth range, yet is so upset Sam. Must be some 20-something year old who is really insecure with his life.
James, and what’s wrong with parental help? You can’t fight reality. If you are destined to serve people who are wealthier than you, then just be comfortable with your situation in life.
I’m 37 years old and have a net worth of $2.8 million. My parents paid for my public school college. The rest, I made myself.
Hey, I am 34 and have a net worth of 8.2mm, not sure what makes you so skeptical of people on here. It’s nice to have a forum to share this information anonymously since it’s such a taboo subject in real life. Good luck and stay positive!
Why are you maxing out your 401(k)? It seems like quite a bit of money to put in a set plan designated by your company. Especially when you will be unable to use it until you retire. Wouldn’t it be better to contribute up to the matching maximum and put the rest , up to10% of salary, into a roth or traditional ira?
I’m 23 paid for college through federal loans and a moderate college fund. Still have student loans of about 20k but the rates are so low its not worth it to pay them off in full. Net worth is about 10k and I’ve been working almost a year. Half is in cash and half is in index funds and retirement accounts. Most of my money goes to rent living in a large city but there isn’t a way around that. Buying is actually more expensive than here once you consider interest, hoa fees, insurance, maintenance.
There are ways to access your 401k before retirement age penalty free if necessary. Look into rule 72(t) distributions. You can also avoid penalties if you retire at 55 (rule of 55). Both of these strategies involve strict restrictions. Consult your financial advisor.
This is a great site.
I’m a 50 year old, recent divorcee, who is a low wage earner to an ex who is a high wage earner.
Even after the divorce settlement, I am way behind, especially since I was out of the work force for almost 10 years; and am basically starting my career over.
At least this gives me a starting point to gauge my progress.
Thanks,
Interesting website. Good to hear where people stand.
Im 24, currently around 100k net worth all in cash besides mode of transportation (paid for)
no debts whatsoever, looking to put some money in an index fund. thinking vangaurd.
Any suggestions for investments to offset inflation?
I love places like this, and the comments that come in. People love to brag and spin tall tales in the comment sections. My fav might be the first guy (Jim?) This guy goes on about his millions, but writes like a 3rd grade dropout. LOL.
I would not count home equity as part of net worth unless it is rental property that generates an income.
Fair opinion.
Please check out this post further on this topic on why counting home equity as a part of net worth is fine:
https://www.financialsamurai.com/why-its-ok-to-include-your-primary-residenc-in-your-net-worth-calculation/
This is sort of a funny article in my eyes. There are so many variables. 1. How many 26, 27 year olds are maxing out their 401K’s when they have Student Loans, Rent or a mortgage to pay, and then factor in babies? None that I know of. I am 35 and am STILL unable to max my 401k.
Also, the chart on homeownership and equity is laughable. Has the author not seen the housing market decline? My house which I bought for 250k in 2007, now 7 years later it worth a Paltry 200k. And those numbers dont add up. I refinanced once and I still owe 240k.
I have a college degree, never been unemployed, and neither has my wife, who has 2 Masters Degrees. Low end on home equity is in the negatives. High end equity right now would maybe be your low end numbers. This is at least with what I see from myself, and my 35 year old friends. Unless you want to factor the one friend who is a 1%’er. Then yes, your assumptions would be right, except that at 35, he is worth $20 Million.
Maybe we just have different friends? I would say 80% of the 26-27 year olds I knew growing up and those I know today are maxing out their 401k.
I am also well aware of a very large nationwide housing recovery since 2012.
Where do you live and how much do you and your wife make?
My 401k has been maxed out since I got my first serious job at 19. I’m now 44 and I have $677k in my 401k.
Very well written paper with solid math & statistics. Thanks for posting it. I will be sending this on to many others…
My main problem with this is the assumption of no student loan debt for the “above average” person. This seems more like the “had rich parents” person. I had a half tuition scholarship and worked part-time throughout college. However, my part-time wages only covered my housing and food – and that was a huge stretch that included additional money saved up over summers and in high school. Parents also contributed a lot towards college, but I graduated with around $35,000 in student loans. Add my car loan on top of that, and my net worth after graduating started out at a little below -40,000. I would guess that this is fairly normal.
Of course, there are other variables at play. Cost of living in the city where you attended college, for one thing, as well as whether or not you attended a state school or a private university. However, even for the above average person, I don’t think starting out at 0 net worth is average.
Sam, glad I found your site. I did a google search for “45 year old average net worth”. I get kind of depressed reading some of the posts above for someone my age (45). I only make 100K, sometimes a bit more with bonuses. I’m married with a kid and we only have one income now. I am on track only because I’