There have been a number of data points recently that have caught me off guard. Apparently, there are people in this world who actually work 40 hours a week or less and complain why they can’t get ahead! I understand if you are retired, a student, handicapped, or under-employed how you might not work 40 hours a week. But, I’ve only heard about places like France where people work less than 40 hours a week and start going on strike if they have to work more.
Working 40 hours a week or less is fantastic if you are happy with your income and career, not bored out of your mind, and can get away with it. Unfortunately, I am neither skilled enough to do what I want with that little amount of time, nor do I have the courage to work so little for what I am being compensated for. I think I would probably get fired if I worked that little. Besides, I have at least 60 hours of work energy in me a week at the age of 40. Might as well utilize it before it fades, because I used to have 80 hours of work energy in my 20s!
Folks Who Complain Why They Can’t Get Ahead While Working So Little
Data point #1: Two women on the bus were chatting next to me and explaining what a long day at work they had. It was 6:30pm and one woman said, “Thank goodness the day is over! I got in an hour early at 8:30am and am absolutely exhausted!” She’s exhausted for being in the office for nine hours and taking an hour long lunch break? Sign me up! In equities banking, we lowly analyst had to get in at 5:30am to run errands and print out research for our traders, and then stay until at least 7:30am!
Data point #2: For some reason, my article “How Much Do The Top Income Earners Make By Percentage?” continues to get random commenters (1,200+ now) who turn the simple question into a political and social debate about why the rich should be paying more taxes, and the lower 50% should be paying even less taxes. One commenter says I’m out of touch with reality when I explain that anybody who really wants to be in the Top 50% of income earners ($33,000) can do so if they wanted to. All you have to do is work 63 hours a week at $10 to make $33,000 a year! He says that’s ridiculous as he can’t make that working 40 hours a week (no kidding).
Data point #3: My friend in HR said her firm is implementing overtime compensation for certain level of workers who work more than 40 hours a week. I asked her why her firm was rewarding their workers for working hours they’re supposed to anyway? That’s like rewarding the cable guy who comes within the allotted window! She giggled and shrugged. If I am the CEO, and you command overtime compensation for working more than 40 hours a week, I will do my best to refer you to my competitor to blow them up.
Data point #4: A blogger who moved to a foreign country to experience location independence, swims for hours a day, “works” about 30 hours a week and says he’s burned out. He’s upset that he’s not making more than $1,000-$2,000 a month with his info-products and online job opportunities. He’s so burned out that he took a week off to re-charge his batteries. In other words, he took a vacation from his vacation.
You’d think as a full-time blogger working 3-5 hours a day that you’d probably post every day and never burn out. But, he only posts 2 to 3X a week and writes that he’s frustrated nobody has given him a book deal. Come on now. $1,000-$2,000 ain’t too shabby for kicking back! The blogger is in his late 30s now, still lives in his mother’s basement, but has finally taking hard work to heart and is producing a pretty good podcast on living unconventional lives.
Data point #5: There were four 20-something year olds just lounging in these recliners at Starbucks, surfing the web, and doing absolutely nothing but goof off for the entire 1.5 hours I was meeting up with a client. This was midday on a Wednesday. One guy starts saying how his firm hired someone senior than him to do his job, and how angry he was for not being recognized more. Then this other guy who was listening to music off his laptop chimes in that he’s been looking for a programming job for months.
This is San Francisco, where if you have programming skills, you are hired for $100,000 at 25 years old. Watching YouTube videos, surfing the web, and playing games on your laptop at a coffee shop during the middle of the day does not get you anywhere. Taking 1.25 hour coffee breaks in the afternoon if you are working doesn’t not help you get promoted either.
Data point #6: After publishing the post, Are You Too Proud to Be Rich?, a lot of people complained in the comments section they don’t have the capacity to side hustle to make extra money. It’s as if once the clock strikes 5pm, no more work can be done. Meanwhile, I just wrote that all these first generation immigrants side-hustling and making more than these private school graduate Uber employees! Why wouldn’t you want to start your own website to try and leverage the internet to make more money? There are millions of people out there who are making extra money via the gig economy and online.
Data point #7: In an open letter to her CEO, 24 year old Talia wrote, “I was told I’d have to work in support for an entire year before I would be able to move to a different department. A whole year answering calls and talking to customers just for the hope that someday I’d be able to make memes and twitter jokes about food.” WTF. Since when was working an “entire year” so bad before getting a promotion?
Data point #8: Bo, a Creative Writing/English major from University of Colorado said he and other people were crying at their desks constantly while working for Amazon, according to a New York Times article. Bo lasted for 1 year, 10 months at his book marketing role so he could do something more special, like work at a startup called Yessler, where he lasted for 1 year and 6 months before moving to Microsoft, where he’s been there for 8 months. Will he ever be able to last for two years at one place? Or will things just be too hard on him?
Do People Really Work Less Than 40 Hours A Week?
Are there really people out there who only work 40 hours or less a week and complain why they can’t get ahead or make enough money? That’s like slacking off in school and expecting Google to hire you for big bucks. Ain’t gonna happen.
I don’t think I’ve ever worked less than 40 hours a week when I was still working a day job and healthy. Day job work is around 55-60 hours a week and online work is another 20 hours of side hustle work for a total of 75-80 hours. Add on 35-42 hours a week for sleep, that still leaves 50 hours a week to spend with family, friends, and extracurricular activities. It’s not like the 75-80 hours a week spent on work is all work either. It’s fun to interact online, go play golf with clients, get some lunch and earn some income in the process.
Perhaps society has manipulated people into believing that 40 hours a week is a normal time to spend on the job or on an endeavor.
There are two ways to get ahead: 1) Work harder and smarter than everybody else and 2) Make everybody else work less and dumber. If you ask any super successful person how many hours a week they work I can guarantee you that it’s way more than 40 hours a week.
Do you think President Obama or President Trump works only 40 hours a week? Hell no! They regularly work 60-70 hours a week and are on call 24-7. Do you think Fake News King Mark Zuckerberg works 40 hours a week? He worked around the clock to build Facebook to what it is today. Do you think doctors don’t study night and day for their MCATs to then go on single digit work hour rounds? The answer is “no,” and you all know that.
Stop being so lazy and abolish welfare mentality! We’ve got an immigrant janitor here in San Francisco who makes $271,000 a year due to working tons of overtime. He’s not alone either! His elevator/escalator technician makes $284,000 a year due to working way more than 40 hours a week as well. He’s not alone either! Managers at In N’ Out Burger earn on average $160,000 a year without a college degree.
40 Hours A Walk In The Park
If you can work 40 hours a week and be satisfied with what you have, more power to you. However, if you are complaining about life and why you don’t have enough money and only work 40 hours a week, you need to get your head checked. We live in a very competitive society and anybody who wants to be better than average can’t work 40 hours and expect to be more than they’re not.
Update 2018: Now that I’m almost six years into retirement, I finally see the joys of slacking off. I’ve only been working ~25 hours a week on this site in 2018 so far, and am loving the leisure time and lower levels of stress. But, in order to be able to chillax after age 40, I first had to put in the extra hours when I was younger. Trust me, you won’t regret the effort you put in when you were younger. Not a day goes by where I’m not thankful to be able to spend every day taking care of my newborn son, instead of having to commute to an office and work at a job that I don’t love.
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I know that I work more than 40 hours per week and figure that I will do at least that much until I die. I can’t imagine retiring to do nothing so I will be doing something or I would go nuts.
I googled because I wanted to see when people take time off work and i felt guiltee being a 50 hour a week retail manager I hurt myself on vacation got stitches, and didn’t want to look lazy so went back to work hurt.. in which caused a fracture in my ankle from going up and down ladders already bruised up. I guess I can reassure my self I’m not being lazy and truly need time to heal
I noticed that, for some reason, people compete for more hours instead of more dollars/per hour. I strive to have more dollars per hour instead of more hours. Having more and more hours is seen as a “benefit” in society. But I see it as losing my own free time, which is opposite of benefit. My free time is worth more than any overtime pay in my opinion. The only case when working 40+ hours is beneficial if it is working for my own business at the startup or occasionally on busy seasons. For me working less than 40 hours is such a huge benefit. It allows me to stay in perfect shape as I go to gym and cook my own cheap and healthy food, it allows me to grow personally as I have time to read books and study languages, it allows me to try other jobs, or better, try my own business on a side(the greatest advantage of all), and it allows me to have time for me and for always getting enough sleep on top of always being happy and productive at the actual job that I have (which is only 33 hours), and it allows me to stay fun and sexy for my boyfriend(another greatest benefit).
this is an interesting post. lifestyle design is a neat concept in that one can choose the type of life they want to live. the key is to be realistic about financial expectations. it seems from the post that you are implying most are not – in that they want the lifestyle, but are surprised / or complain about the financial situation they are in. while that may be the case for many, i personally know plenty who are living the life they want (working much less than 40 hours) and still making the money to put them in the top 5% of the population. that said, it took everyone some time and sacrifices (such as working 60-70 hours per week) to put themselves in a position where their current reality has been made possible.
Answers Below:
do you know people out there who work 40 hours a week and complain about not getting ahead? YES – MAJORITY OF THIS WORLD
Why don’t they just work harder to get ahead? Is it easier to complain rather than do? – WORKING HARDER IS NOT THE SOLUTION. WORKING ON THE RIGHT THINGS IS IN MY OPINION (SELECTION / CHOICE)
Do you believe most people can make more than $33,000 in America if they wanted to? – ANYONE / EVERYONE CAN IN MY OPINION
I’m shocked if it really is true that the majority of the world works 40 hours a week or less. Are you sure about this? In my mind, only a small minority would work this little because people are rational and want to achieve more. Am I completely off here?
I read the question as how many actually work at least 40 hours (maximum output) to which I think most do but still end up complaining about not getting ahead.
Yes you’re completely off here. There are a lot of people in my country, the United States, that don’t equate happiness with money or status.
There are plenty of people who realize that we are given a finite amount of time and would like to spend that time enjoying life as much as possible.
The goal is to strike a good balance.
Yes work gives many people a purpose in life. It provides a means to sustain oneself and loved ones.
But for many of us, working is not the point of life.
I make over 80,000 a year right now and put in roughly 42-50 hours a week.
I would gladly take a paycut back down to $60000 to work 30-35 hours a week.
Unfortunately this is not possible in this country – and so I must work more than 40 and if it becomes too unreasonable then I must go find another job.
your out of your mind , first of all most people do not have the choice as to how many hours they can and cannot work, 2nd opportunity is not on a level playing field in this country thanks to the good ole boy system , credit score,company power to do what ever they want, and increase in competition for lower end jobs! furthermore the only d*ck heads that say these thing are the one who have benefited from the g.o.b. system or had a silver spoon opportunity that only a few have. this isnt me whinning it’s just the real truth. the top 10% should beware, because there nothing without the peolple who make it happen not the other way around!
Try working 8hrs per day doing labor for no money. 40 hrs is plenty thank you very much!
I think your math is off… 80 hours a week of work + 42 hours of (not enough) sleep doesn’t leave 11 hours a day. It leaves 6 and half hours. And assuming you didn’t work weekends, it would only leave 2 hours/day.
Not all employees have the option to work more hours. Many employers won’t allow their hourly employees to work over 40 hours to avoid paying over-time. They could get a second job, of course, but the availability of those options often depends on where you live.
Personally, I have no interest in working 60+ hours/week for an employer. Do I want to make more money? Of course. Is my personal time and time with my family more important? Yes.
PS: That $33k figure is far understated IMO, because a lot of people get paid under the table or via tips that they don’t claim on their taxes (like waiters, bartenders, etc). I do believe it’s pretty easy to make more than $33k/year.
My math was off, apples to oranges of weeks and days. Now it’s all hours per week units. Thx.
It would be interesting to understand how deep th cash/black market is.
I agree that the math was off! With a week being 168 hours, remove 80 hours of work and 42 hours of sleep (which I agree is not enough and will leave one’s health in jeopardy) leaves 46 hours. Then one needs to consider how much time is spent in commuting to/from work (10+ hours per week?) personal grooming (7+ hours per week?), eating outside of work (7 hours per week?), and taking care of housework (about 15 hours for men, about 24 hours for women) before you can even get to “enjoying” family and friends. If you’ve been doing the math there…very little is left for “enjoying family and friends” if a man works 80 hours per week, and women somehow need to manufacture some extra time to even get those basic tasks completed.
Data point #1: 8:30 AM is an hour EARLY? What planet is that on?
Data point #2: People could always make more but many don’t go outside the conventional box to make more. For instance, many people don’t have more than 40 hours per week available to them at one job, so they’d have to get a second job. I know many teachers who bartend on the weekend and do landscaping in summers so they can make $80-$100K instead of $50K. But others are single parents, in school or whatever – and they can’t find the time to work more. Agree – many can, some can’t though.
Data point #3: Paying OT over 40 hours is more of a legal win for trial lawyers than something companies want to do. I’ve been seeing pharma sales reps winning court cases where they want OT for woooing clients at dinners and sporting events at night and such. I think that’s kind of a joke – you’re in sales! not to mention they can get their runs done during the daytime hours in 20 hours a week so they’re doing some extra work at night, but I digress. Court cases are forcing this isssue, gee, I wonder why US companies want to hire overseas?
Data point #4: I’ve written 5-10 articles a week for years on top of a full-time job, parenting, coaching and all that good stuff. Now granted, some of my articles are brief 20 minute gigs and maybe these pro-bloggers put several hours into each one. But I never got the notion of being “burnt out” writing 2 articles in a week.
I’m impressed you can write that much. I would need to be a full time writer or at least only work 30hrs a week at my day job to accomplish that feat.
Should we feel sorry for those who don’t have the stamina and try and help em out or no?
Sam,
How long does it take you to write an article? Mine are probably 20-50 mins each, so let’s call it 40 to be conservative. On say, a 9 article week, 9*40=360=6 hours. That’s not really a lot of time, I mean, I spend about 9P-11P each weeknight on blog/email/paying bills or whatever I need to do once my kids go to sleep. Occasionally, I’ll comment on blogs and hit my blog comments at night or on weekends or, like this week, when on vacation while my kid’s napping. But all together, I probably spend under 20 hours a week on blog stuff.
So, if I work a 50 hr wk (granted, very short commute and occasionally work from home), adding 20 is just a 70 hr week. Not really too crazy; you stated yourself you’re an 80+ hr/wk guy yourself, right? I do sleep less than I used to and no longer watch much TV, sports included. But right now my priorities are the kids, saving for college/retirement and having fun. So, I don’t mind sacrificing some things that I used to enjoy.
To your question, I think people should make the best decisions for them regarding work/life balance and be accepting of the outcomes. We already “help out” over a hundred million Americans who don’t pay any federal income taxes as we know.
Thanks for the shoutout in comment below; appreciate the compliment.
It usually takes about 35 minutes to 2 hours. A lot of my articles recently have been in the 1,500 word range so it’s taking longer than expected.
If all I had to do is write, I could potentially pump out 10 a week consistently. However, running the Yakezie Network entails a lot of responsibility and time which nobody really sees. Since I know how hard it is to create something of this size, I will definitely seek out someone who replicates a similar organization in another genre. It’s not easy at all.
Not to mention all the US corporations/billionaires who use legal / tax loopholes to pay as few taxes as possible. It always makes me laugh how we as a society bag on the less fortunate for not paying taxes and taking welfare but we never pay attention to the rich people who do the same thing. If this portion of the population would pay their fair share as well the we, as a country, wouldn’t have a lot of the issues we do today. Don’t even get me started on trickle down economics because that obviously is not working either. Let’s start paying people an honest wage and bringing back the times when companies saw their workforce as an asset and not a liability. That’s not what the head cheeto in charge meant by Make America Great Again but that’s what it should mean.
5-6 hours of sleep a night is ridiculous. It is directly linked to an early grave. 6-8 hours a night (so aim for averaging 7) is the sweet spot that doesn’t increase chance of premature death.
Some of us would rather spend more than 29.7% of our time with our family (50/168). That’s also not including time spent commuting, getting ready in the morning, getting ready for bed at night, and any other day-to-day-life chores people have to do (cooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, etc.). You might be able to outsource some of those on your salary, but folks working 60-80 hours a week to make 30-40,000 won’t be able to afford it.
I read research that says people who sleep 7 hours or more die young.
You only have to work 62 hours a week to make 33K at $10/hour.
>> I read research that says […]
References or it didn’t happen.
I’m poking fun at you. Who’s to say your reference is the authority?
Stop making excuses for why you can’t do more.
Only 62 hours a week. Awesome.
A motivating article but with the right social skills and ability to play politics a slick SOB can muster 40 hour work weeks and still collect a hefty pay cheque. It’s called “middle management”.
40 a week sounds so easy to me now. I’m not eligible for paid overtime anymore but I still work late if something has to get done. I know a few people who work extra hours but choose not to claim their OT which has always surprised me. They could get paid but they choose not to?! Are they really that lazy to leave money on the table? Or maybe they’re afraid to claim extra hours because it makes them more expensive than their peers and are afraid of getting put on the chopping block.
There will always be people who complain about their jobs and never do anything to change their situation unfortunately. The sooner people realize they really DO have control over their future, the faster they’ll find ways to live and work the way they’ve always wanted.
I wouldn’t claim overtime in this economy unless I was dying for money. Head down and focus while adding value!
I work 35 hours a week. I get paid hour-long lunches, so I’m in the office for 40 hours a week, and yeah, that’s pretty much it. When I work overtime, I am compensated for it. And why shouldn’t I be? My salary is based on the understanding that I am working for 35 hours each week, and if I end up working 45 hours that week, then I should be paid accordingly. (In my case, I’m allowed to accumulated extra hours during busy times and take time off during slow periods.) I do some freelance work and blog on the side, but that’s more a hobby than anything else. Aside from blogging, which earns me no money, I maybe work 10 extra hours a month freelance. Maybe more.
And you know what? Sometimes after a long eight-hour day at work, I AM tired.
I know very few people that work more than 40 hours a week and aren’t compensated for it. Yes, I wish I made more money, but I am in no way willing to sacrifice my free time for it. I, and almost everyone I know, value my work-life balance more than the boost in income I could get from working a part-time job.
And I do not believe most people who are currently making less could make $33,000 if they wanted to, given the States’ unemployment rate. These things are never as simple as, “If she wanted to, she could be rich.” And some things are a lot more important than getting ahead. If I wanted to, I could leave my industry for another (that I’m fully qualified for, but would find the work un-stimulating) and triple or quadruple my income. But I don’t want to. So I don’t. But that doesn’t mean I can’t complain about the industry I’m in. By that logic, someone who works hard as a teacher, but complains about the salary, should shut up because “she could have been a lawyer instead.” It’s comparing apples to oranges.
That’s exactly right about your teacher example. Free country. You choose to teach to help the kids, not for the money. Hence, any teacher bitching about not making enough money believes in unicorns. Thankfully, I don’t know any teachers who complain about money.
Yeah, that’s actually the opposite of the point I was trying to make.
If you work 35 hours a week (that is awesome), and then do 10 hours a week freelancing, that’s 45 hours a week. You don’t qualify for the 40 or less.
I don’t know any teachers who complain about salary because it’s not about the money.
She said 10 exrra hours a month. That’s about 37.5 hours a week.
Oh, one more thing, you forget that different jobs can be physically taxing in different ways. Eight hours as a nurse looks a lot different from eight hours as a computer programmer, cop, lawyer, retail cashier, babysitter, customer service rep, etc. Just because 40 hours a week doesn’t take it out of you, doesn’t make those who it DOES exhaust lazy or not hard working.
Is the word “lazy” used one in this article?
Good point about physical or dangerous labor.
Absolutely,I’m 50 years old,female with a lot of problems with my back and feet and joints and fibromyalgia ,getting a divorce after 32 years and just started my very first full time job. I drove a school bus for nine years before this. I was without any income at all all summer until this week (8 weeks).That is a VERY stressful job,by the way. I am now working in a machine shop for ten hour days,with a 30 minute lunch and two 15 minute breaks and it really kicked my butt this week,but,I did it!! It’s not my dream job,its dirty and noisy,but,it pays well,was all that I could find and has good benefits. It is really mentally and physically taxing,but,I am determined to do it until I find something better.
Lisa, that does sound very stressful.
My post’s complete title should be, “Are There Really People Who Only Work 40 Hours A Week Or Less and Complain They Can’t Get Ahead?”
Hmm…I make a very generous income working 40ish hours a week at a job I really really like!
Perhaps it’s that I believe in the “work smarter, not harder” movement, and consistently use the Pomodoro technique to guarantee my work ethic and prevent burnout? I never thought I’d be looked down upon as a 8:30 to 5:30 worker!
For an entrepreneur, I understand long hours. However, if youre an office worker, you’re likely wasting a ton of time “working” 60 some hours or only sticking around for appearances because the boss is watching.
Nobody is looking down on you Leah. If you really like your job an are happy with your career, more power to you!
I’d have to say that people who only put in 40 I have a difficult time talking to. There’s always more to be done, and sure you’re not contracted to do it, but if you want to get ahead, you can get in there and work and extra 2 hours a day – that’ll make a 50 hour week. When I was driving a lot, I was working 15 hour days at 2 jobs + 3 hours in commute! Those days are behind me, but they helped put into perspective the amount of work that is required. Why slack off?
>> I’d have to say that people who noly put in 40 I have a difficult time talking to.
What does that mean? You’re chatting about the environment or sports or astrophysics with John Q. Public, find out how many hours he works, and have to walk away from the conversation? Or just that you hav a difficult time talking to people who work 40 hours *when they are complaining about work*? Because that’s a very different thing.
What a strange lack of perspective from someone with a “sustainable life” blog.
I have the latter problem. I find that quite a few people complain about not getting ahead or something like that, then I find that they are not working extra hours, taking on extra projects, etc.
I can chat about most anything with just about anyone, and dont walk away when I find out they only work forty hours per week – that’s kind of funny.
I’ll be honest, I work way less than 40 hours a week. I’m 32 and I’ve got a great IT job for a Fortune 500 company and I work 100% from home. I find I can get my job done in 2-3 hours a day, sometimes less and still be MUCH more productive than all of my co-workers. And I work a 4×10 schedule so I take every Monday off. I make a great six figure salary and I have plenty of free time to do whatever I want. I spend time with my kids when they are home, I optimize my personal affiliate websites (that generate a growing side income with nearly zero effort required), I brew some awesome beer at home, I read A LOT, I work out, I constantly maintain my family’s finances and investments including two rental units near the beach, I help several of my friends plan their investments, etc.
I’m a big believer in lifestyle described in “The 4-Hour Work Week”. (Tim’s follow up book, “The 4-Hour Body” is also an awesome book if you want to get in the best shape of your life with very little effort.) The 40 hour work is no longer needed in my opinion. With the progression of technology, “work” has become much more efficient. Even the people I know who “work” 40+ hours a week find they are just “at work” for much of that time, not really “working”. Your time is the only REALLY valuable thing you have in life, I find no good reason to spend my time working to earn money for someone else, or worse yet, for some big corporation. If I could make a living with zero effort, that would be the ideal situation, but for now, I’m still doing about 10 hours of work 4 days a week and I can’t wait to get that time down to 4 hours or less a week…
The only problem with having a great deal of free time during the week is that nobody else I know has that, so I find myself spending much of that time on my own. My weekend and evenings are packed full of things to do with my wife, kids and friends, but during normal working hours I am always looking for more stuff to do with my time.
In any case, I hope all of you find yourself in a place where you only need to work a few hours a week to earn a great living for your families. I feel like this is a logical goal for any “worker”. Like a previous comment said (and a famous saying of Scrooge McDuck): “Work smarter, not harder.”
I think you may be missing Sam’s point…you work less than 40 hours a week but are you bitching about the money?
If you’re happy, great. It looks like you are achieving way below your potential though.
Donno. The more one says how awesome they are, the more I’ve discovered how much more they wish they could do.
Mind sharing your salary with your side jobs? No biggie if not.
I’m self-employed in the internet business and have 3 employees. We all work from home. I am MUCH more effective working from home than the times I need to work at a client site. We also bill per the hour so our work is totally measurable, and must be justified.
I think a lot of people on salary in offices may not work as effectively as those who work (seriously!) from home. When I work in a client’s office environment, I’m subject to constant interruptions and social interactions. I would say as much as 20-30% of work time in an office environment is “wasted” on things like that…
I still work 60+ hours a week and maybe 40hrs are billable in a good week :-) The rest is self-training, business admin & development, etc.
People who don’t know any better think being a self-employed consultant sounds glamorous. And working from home sounds like I’m watching the soaps all day. Ha! The people who say this are usually the “35-hrs a week is tough” crowd and there’s no use explaining to them what discipline it takes. They just don’t understand…
IMO, the hours I put in is the price I pay for being my own boss and controlling my own destiny workwise. They’re are people, however, who don’t think they can control their own work lives and always perceive themselves as victims. If you think you’re a victim, then you’ll only want to be victimized 40 hours a week…hehe…
I totally believe you on more efficient work at home. I’ve worked from home on my days off before, and I literally go for 5-8 hours at a time without any break. It’s 10000% pure focus!
Thanks for your thoughts!
The open plan offices have killed productivity. Working from home is basically just paying for your own office — not that there’s anything wrong with that!
When I was in the business world, I easily worked 60-70 hours at the office plus additional time at home. Whether it is expected or you see it as a way to personalize your job, it has to be done. It goes with being on salary. I see the additional effort as a way to make yourself more valuable. There will always be complainers who put in no effort and expect success. It is not limited to workers who only work minimally (40 hours)!
Bingo!
Yes, it is possible. But you probably won’t get promoted or be offered other good opportunties if you don’t. Those in their 20’s seem to be demanding more of a work/life balance than older workers. That is not met with smiles by their bosses, but those bosses are learning that it’s more common for this age group, especially the college educated crowd. They value their leisure time as much as the pay it seems. Perhaps younger workers saw their parents working long hours only to be laid off with few benefits. This is what I’m seeing/hearing/reading.
That last point could definitely be a possibility why the entitlement is so strong with the 20-something year olds.
I want it all for little effort. It’s why those 80’s weight loss machines that vibrate the tummy were such a hit! We have convinced society that we can work 4 hours a week and be rich. Get rich quick skims will always be around, and make the creators rich.
Get rich quick schemes are brilliant because there are enough dummies to buy them to get you rich. Then once they see you are rich, you sell more!
I would like to bring up the topic about passive income. A lot of people realize that passive income is achievable, but most will end up failing in doing so. My point is what this post is all about. You will not have money working FOR YOU, unless you put in the time, effort, and educate yourself to make it work!
I hope that makes sense :)
Yep, I love building passive and side income. I believe my energy will slowly fade as i get older, and may only be able to work 30-40 hours a week a couple decades from now. By then, I expect passive income to be a major source of income.
It really depends on what you want out of life. When I was in college people at my work told me that I would no longer be able to work full-time hours because it was too difficult. When I ended up working full-time while in college full-time I had co-workers mention that I had not life. Yet I still managed to train hard and go out on the weekends while they got over weight and likely rarely laid.
I think you can get great things done while working over 40 hrs per week. It’s just not for everyone.
MD, I’m impressed you worked 40 hours a week while you were in college. Do you think that ultimately helped you or hurt you?
Whatever the case, that is hardcore dedication which I would never be able to replicate!
It’s all (or mostly, anyway) about individual choice. Some people don’t want to work more than 40 hours a week. Many don’t want to work more than part-time. That’s ok.
HOWEVER….complaining about not getting ahead when not working hard screams of entitlement.
Nobody is entitled to be rich. Nobody is entitled to get ahead. It all has to be earned. Not putting in the work, and expecting all the goodies, doesn’t align.
Again thought, working less hours is perfectly fine if expectations of income and lifestyle are kept in check. For those with family obligations, health issues, etc – that may be all that’s feasible or makes sense. It’s definitely not for everyone.
One side comment: 35-42 hours of sleep is not enough for most people. It’s not healthy. Those that can do that are fortunate. But most people, whether they realize it or not, need 7 or 8 hours of sleep a night. That equates to 49 to 56 hours of sleep.
As for the $33,000 question, I would like to think that most people should be able to make that. Of course, my perspective is skewed as I am relatively healthy and have a masters degree (MBA). Those that are not healthy and/or lacking an undergrad degree might have a more difficult time.
Good post, thought provoking for sure!
Hey Ray, thx for your thoughts. I always wonder how can there be such a mismatch for those who complain and then only work 40 or less hours a week.
I really don’t think 8 hours is necessary to sleep. 7 hours is pretty good… but 8 just seems like a big waste of time. 1/3rd your life is sleeping? I donno.
I wake up naturally after 6 hours, but I know plenty of people who wake up after 5 and have tons of energy.
Ha!
Sam, I know what you mean about the idea that 8hrs means sleeping away 1/3 of life. It’s tantalizing to cut out some sleep, since life is short enough so why not be awake more and enjoy life more, right?
I guess for some of us, if we don’t get enough sleep (7 hrs for me) it means a less productive day and other negatives. For example, times I’ve worked super late in the office and gotten just 4 or 5 hours of sleep, I’m much less productive the next day or two and am much more prone to bad decisions in eating junk/comfort food, skipping any exercise, etc.
Also thought I’d read/heard something recently about how problems sleeping can increase chances of dementia later in life. Nobody wants that.
Anyway, that’s great that you can wake naturally after 6 hours. Gives you extra time to not only get things done but enjoy life without reprecussions that some others might otherwise face. You’re fortunate, it’s a gift!
Actually now that I think of it maybe some economic value could be attached to this as well…
I suggest doing a one or two week experiment and record when you naturally wake up every morning after going to be at a “normal” hour. Calculate that time spent, as I believe our bodies knows best. I think you’ll be surprised that you don’t need 7-8 hours of sleep.
There’s too much exciting stuff in the world to sleep a third of your life a way! I don’t have a gift. I have a lot of enthusiasm!
I am personally planning to give myself 12 hour workdays soon, so I have more time to get things rolling in the new year, but in order to do this and not ignore my girlfriend I will need to start EARLY.
But not only do I feel like total crap on less than 8 hours, but my brain actually doesn’t work as good. The next day when I’m rested, I’ll notice all the crap I wrote when I was too tired to notice. So just giving myself more time by sleeping less doesn’t always work.
What’s the secret, FS? If I want it badly enough, my body will respond in kind? I hope so.
Yes, that is it. You will do it if you really want it. If you don’t really want it, then you just won’t do it. It’s that simple. So if you can’t do it, it’s simply b/c you don’t really care for it, which is cool too. Everything is rational!
Doing work while the girlfriend is asleep or away really is the solution. She wakes up at 7am, you wake up at 5:30am!
I understand that you are likely trying to be helpful, but scientific research shows that about 3-5% of the population can do with less than 7 hours sleep, the rest of us need 7-9 hours sleep. There are serious ramifications to not getting the sleep you need. I have spent the majority of my life not starting work until noon – so haven’t used an alarm clock for most of it, and guess what? I need 8 hours sleep – almost on the dot. Implying that people are “missing out” by taking care of themselves and getting the sleep that they need isn’t helpful….
if i dont get 8 or 9 hours my health and whatever i am working on suffers greatly… i have learning diffrnces thAt make things take me twice as long and works my brain hard therefore needing more sleep. When i work like this artical is insinuating it leads to hospitalization for me… i have been hospitalized multiple times because i work to the point my health deteriorates. (Infections attack when i dont sleep as much and dont have the time to cook properly and exercise.
Balence is key but because everyone is diffrent … i wish i could work to get ahead but i dont want to have to be hospitalized…again and yes i have health issues but its the working that got me so sick… at the same time maybe i wasnt ment for school… i feel like a lazy loser who sucks at life because i cant work a job for over a year without burning out aka sicknesses and hospital this is not my choice … i want to beable to pay my medical insurance and bills but working makes that impossible… remember i got sick from overworking…
“There are two ways to get ahead: 1) Work harder and smarter than everybody else and 2) Make everybody else work less and dumber.”
Here is my view on working harder to get a head.
I run 3 chinese foot massage business here in Los Angeles. I have been doing 12 hour days, 7 days a week for the last 2 and a half years. I haven’t gone out, drank, or do anything else social during this time.
I make more money than 99% of everyone I know and yet I find that I have absolutely no time or chance to spend and enjoy the money I have made.
I regularly check my friend’s facebook photos, and always see everyone happy and smiling, and all the while I just feel my life passing me by.
I realize now I have become a slave to money. I think everyone needs to ask themselves “How much are you willing to sacrifice in order to get ahead in this world?”
That seems excessive Robin. 12 hours a day 7 days a week for 2.5 yrs seems like burnout city. Take at least one day off a week!
No point making money if you don’t spend your money! https://www.financialsamurai.com/2011/05/04/no-point-making-money-if-you-dont-spend/
@Dave
I hate you. (I am jealous of you)
I have found that some people complain no matter what because they like to be victims. Some of the people could also make much more money than they currently do and would probably just spend right through it and still whine.
These days, I don’t know many people that can work just 40 hours a week. There have been so many layoffs that people are covering their own job and pieces of other people’s jobs. As a matter of fact, I was just talking with a coworker that worked 300 hours in July. He is actually a contractor and he gets paid for every minute he works. He said though that the money doesn’t matter anymore, but that the work hours are really taking a toll on him. (He is 60.) So, money isn’t always the reason for job dissatisfaction. (Not really sure why I went down that road in my commentary…)
Anyway, there are definitely many people out there today that want to do the bare minimum and be highly compensated for it. Life must have gotten too easy for many because the minute they have to step up and do a little extra, they act like they are being so taken advantage of. I will say though, I do feel empathy for those that are stuck working so many hours and for no extra compensation week after week. Some companies just want employees to feel grateful they have a job and they do take advantage of the bad marketplace.
Government entitlements have really demotivated America. It demotivates me.
Couldn’t agree with you more – i hear the same argument from people who complain they’d rather be unemployed than work at McDonalds. Well, here is some news – Mcdonalds is a worldwide monsters with tons of advancement. If I had no other option, I would work the fryer there, because in 3 years I would manage a store and make 70,000 a year.
40 hours a week is peanuts. When I was unemployed I worked more than that on my website, blog, odd jobs, and whatever else I could find. Some people don’t want to work, then they wonder why they still make $8 an hour. Get real people!
High fives! I have a BA and now an MA, but if it meant survival I’d do what it took and work where I had to. Sad story though, I applied at a bunch of retail places (Victoria’s Secret had several locations and the discount is fabulous) and didn’t get a call back for one. I asked a friend who used to work there, she said she remembered they didn’t hire people with a 3 year degree, none the less MA students…yarg.
Even if I couldn’t get a job though, like you did, I would totally be on the internet seeing what else I could do… when I was a fresh new grad student and was waiting on call backs, I sold my stuff online and took care of business I’d neglected.
By the way, focus groups (If you’re in a city or area that has them) is a great way to earn about $65 or more an hour for your ideas during unemployment. I work for a company that facilitates groups and I’ve seen lots of unemployed people use it as a way to earn side cash while they look.
I’m definitely joining some focus groups for $65 an hour! Heard some pay $100 an hour here in SF!
Thanks for your perspective as someone who has been unemployed and powered through doing your own thing!
I don’t know why people don’t think $70,000 a year at McD is a bad gig. Seems good to me. BUT, it does take a lot of effort, and if you can get $20,000 a year from the government and make another $10-15,000 in cash income on the side, maybe why not.
If you want to work less than 40 hours per week, then stop thinking like an employee and start thinking like an entrepreneur. I created a business (working more than 40 hours per week), quit my job 4 years ago, and now I work about 5 hours per week to maintain my business. If you’re new to that idea, check out the 4-Hour workweek by Tim Ferriss. It gave me a lot of help for steamlining and automating my business. Anyone can do it.
Sounds like some good advice to me! Thx.
yay! Thank you this is what i was looking into!
Once upon a time I was an employee (Now have progressed to employer, albeit a very small one yet). I worked for a Fortune 50 company at one of their satellite offices – head office for Canada was Toronto, Corp New York and here I was in a small office in Vancouver. While support staff were easy to get hold of the story was different when it came to getting hold of decision makers – at the start of my day they were already at lunch, which morphed into meetings and then poof! they were gone for the day, or so I thought. I soon adjusted my times and things began to flow smoothly.
But not the way you may think.
At first I thought the answer was to come in early if I needed to run something by someone. They were already at meetings! This was before cells and texting. I found that calling “after hours” was the best time to get hold of them – often it mean I was speaking to someone as late as 7.00 pm their time and sometimes even later! Of course these were the people who were on the upward track.
There were plenty of friendly jibs and jibes between HO and us west coast slackers. It seemed that whenever they called after 4.30 our time (that would be 7.30 pm theirs) we had already emptied the offices – to ski, to sail, to play tennis, or just enjoy the company of friends and family. They wondered how we ever got any work done.
We on the other hand would have none of it. The big thorn was “meetings”. Having had my share of attending these whenever at HO, I can attest to them, for the greater part being a colossal waste of time – now this may be unique to the culture of this particular corporation but somehow I doubt it. Our comeback always was that if they spent less time “meeting” and more time “doing” they too could leave at the appointed end of day hour.
Things have changed since those days. My colleagues who are still at either that corporation or moved on to other corporations work long hours. The laptop has replaced the secretary – my lowly position qualified for only a shared, not a private, secretary but she was top notch and managed not only our correspondence and proposals but our schedules as well. But now the laptop usually comes home to be worked on after the family has been put to bed.
When I went from employee to self employed, my hours became brutal. Now I have a small staff so the type of hours I put in are different – I still put in a lot of hours but employees do not see them, I attend pre-office hour meetings in the morning, attend after hour business mixes, workshops and seminars and my day is often filled with meetings with clients and future prospects.
Now I’ve gone off on a tangent (I do that often), but here’s the thing. We west coast slackers made good incomes. Our quotas were high, we all met them. We had a great time and we managed to do it all within 36 (not 40) hours a week. Several of us declined promotions to Toronto because we knew that we would then be swept into the long days (not to mention HO Politics which in and of themselves can be very time consuming) and we weren’t willing to give up the slopes, the waves or the courts after work.
I guess it all depends on what track you are on. I think everyone can make $33K a year even at $10 per hour. I think that $50K a year should not be that much of a stretch either if you apply yourself and that should still be doable within the 40 hour work week – but $50K isn’t a heck of a lot of money, so beyond that, I think you’d better be prepared to put in the extra to bring in more and to move on up.
Hi Valentina,
Thanks for your perspective! It’s so funny you mention the West Coast Slackers image East Coasters have of us. I think we’re less distracted by meetings and bureacracy that we just get things done that much more efficiently.
One of the tricks ‘ve found is to make friends with your clients. That way, you’re hanging out with people you like, and it’s fun, and not work. Yet it is work, but you don’t even care. You then become probably one of the best people at your firm.
Sam
Hey Sam!
Long time no visit … it’s funny I was driving home from a meeting this week and wondered about how Financial Samurai was coming along and decided to come visit – wow! It’s rocking here. But somehow I suspected that would be the case.
Keep on rocking!
Really good to hear from you as it’s been a while for sure. Glad you are doing well and continue to share some great advice from all your experience! Best, Sam
Well, I have a feeling there will be many more comments on this post, quite a few nasty ones… lol. I mostly agree with you.
It ticks me off when people complain about their situation yet do NOTHING about it, if you’re happy working your 36hours, good for you but if not get off your ass. I see it around me all the time. I live in an area with a lot of poverty but also a lot of crap attitude. Ugrh!
Are there nasty comments on this post Andrea? I don’t see them. Hmmm.. maybe I’ve become so used to comments here, I don’t notice!
Holy cow there are a lot of replies to this- I think you hit a nerve, great job!
I make a point along this same vein all the time about education. Yes, you went to school, double majored, got an insanely high GPA and rocked more clubs than Tiger’s wife but don’t expect to be snatched up as fresh talent in this job market. You have to put in the extra time to network, to read books on leadership, time management, personal development and your chosen career to have any sort of edge. Even a high value degree only puts you at the starting point with many others who do exactly the same.
I feel bad for people who are “burned out,” I feel tired and drained at times too, but am lucky enough to take comfort in the fact that this hard work is for a real, tangible goal I’ve set out for. Working just to work and hoping for reward sucks.
Great post, but I think you knew that!
Hi Shannyn – What’s up with Tiger Woods anyway?
Burn out is very real, however, there is SO MUCH true suffering in the world, that everytime I start to get tired or whatever, I just remember how fortunate we are to do whatever we want in America. Once we realize our blessings, there is no burn out.
S
I only work 40 hours a week on most weeks but I don’t complain about it. In fact I am very grateful. This only applies to my day time job. If I add blogging onto it then I am probably more like 60 hours a week.
I think what people need to remember is that they need to work as much as they need to to get what they want. That number will be different for everyone since everyone’s needs are different.
Sounds like you’ve got good balance Miss T. Congrats! You can’t get what you want without working at it. That’s just silly.
I agree that if you are unhappy about your financial situation there’s no reason you shouldn’t work more.
But life is about finding a balance. Someone who is single may have the drive to work longer hours. Someone with a serious relationship or family with a home to take care of may not be “bored out of their mind.” They might be pretty dang busy when they’re not working.
A while back – GE Miller of 20-Something Finance wrote an interesting post that takes a viewpoint that is basically the opposite of this post. GE believes many Americans are working TOO MUCH.
If you are salaried, you are paid to get the job done. If you are hourly, you are paid to work for an hour, doing what you are told. So HR describes it.
I don’t admire people who work long hours for bragging rights. I admire people who get things that need doing, done.
Most weeks, when I was salaried, I found that the day’s job could get done with 9 hours of actual work (10 hours office time).
Enjoy life as you go through it. If you love to work, work. I you hate to work, find another job as soon as you can!
I should hope people would want to give a little more in any transaction that they enter.
This is so….grey. This can go either way. Like the previous poster said, as a salaried employee you are being paid to execute. As an accountant, that means during monthly close, during budget season, during special projects, I am busting it hard. It comes with the territory. I am paid very well to do what I do and that’s that. However, you can’t confuse that with inefficiency. I’ve seen the type. They work 60 hours a week, but get nothing done. Being present is not a synonym for executing. What it comes down to is results. If you are uber-efficient and get killer results in 40 hours, there’s no crime in that.
One other thing I would like to point out is about balance. I’ve seen it mentioned elsewhere in this thread. Hate to break to those who want balance, but it DOES NOT EXIST. Life ebbs and flows and you are wasting valuable energy fretting about trying to have balance. If you are a driven person, there’s going to be times you need to burn the midnight oil to accomplish something. If you have that drive, it will pay off where you have the time to experience the sweeter things in life at your own pace.
If you try to balance everything, you are just sentenced to a lifetime ride on the hamster wheel.
This situation is absolutely black and white. If you only see your job as an income, you will be hard pressed to ever really get a head. It’s about delivering above and beyond what is required of you, not punching out at 5pm.
Right, but you said WORK, not job. If I am putting in 80 hours a week just at my job, I am failing, regardless of salary. That leaves me little time to work on other pursuits as well. I work hard at my job to devise systems so I can accomplish more in less time. I bust it hard at peak times and deliver more and more.
That said, you are correct. IF you are punching out like Fred Flintstone at 5 PM every day, you are not going anywhere. And you won’t be working for me!
Perhaps it’s best to find a job you really enjoy then? It’s what I’ve found to be one of the most balancing way of going about things.
I agree, 40 hours a week is a cake walk. People that complain about 40 hours of work or less have no drive or motivation; of course, it’s easier for them to complain than to actually fix the problem. Perhaps they don’t like their jobs… one solution would be to find a new one that they like. But wait, that would be too much work :P
It certainly is a lot of work to find what you love to do. But, boy, once you find that something where at least 70% of the time you like it, it’s worth it!
After reading so many posts I have been able to conclude why this is one of the most productive and develop nations in the world. Everyone is committed to work longer, work harder…in other words, live less, be more stressed, die younger( hey at least that will be less people claiming Social Security and/or Medicare). Look I myself work long weeks, 50+hours, I do it because I am single, need the money to support myself (we are not all lucky to have parents, be them rich or not, to help or support us during our times of hardship) and have a good personal commitment to get things done. But you know working so much (it does not include commuting, wasted time on getting ready the night before, etc) has gotten a toll on me, mainly on my studies. I do not have enough time to study as hard or as much as I wanted; I don’t want to hear the cut on TV or other stuff advises, I watch only about 5 hours of entertainment a week, the rest is dedicated to other productive things of life; working out (which is one of the most important activities in life, if you are out of physical shape, mark that I am saying healthy shape not muscly like Arnold, it does not matter how much money you have, your body will take you down, and I mean down to the underground around 3-5 feet deep);also listening to music, and reading books, mostly technical or of practical use.
Remember our lifespan is around 60 – 85 years (more is a blessing, less is very common) so if we wait until we are 65 to start living our lives many things could happen:
*There is not a guarantee that you will still be there.
*You are way too drained to do many things that require your younger body to do so (climbing a mountain or walking the Chinese wall).
*Many things I suppose because I still am not that all but common sense tell me I must be right.
Let’s make some math:
1 Week = 7 days (usually we work 5)
1 Day = 24 hours
1 Work Week = 24*5 = 120 hours
1 Weekend = 24*2 = 48 hours
So if we work between 40 to 60 hours a week that leaves us still with 80 to 60 hours. Now we are biological machines, our brains work 24/7, so does every bit of our bodies, sleep is a state of hibernation on which the body slows down in order to do some maintance, recovery, etc; the brain create more synapses between neurons (we learn while sleeping actually, is like saving all the information from the RAM to the Hard Drive), so we do this important thing called sleep. Now some machines need 5-6 hours, others 6-7, others(very lazy or very hard working machines) require 8+ hours of rest to be ready for the next day. So that takes almost a third of our weekly time so right there we take 30 to 40 hours of the remaining weekly amount. Now we have only have left an average of 45 to 25 hours left each week depending on all the above mentioned factors. So if we include several factors like commuting 30 min to 2 hours daily, eating , getting dressed, taking a bath, other routine activities we would discover that our days are spend working.. just working.
I am not against working, darn no; the world would be a horrendous place if we were lazy or slackers. But justifying that working is all you should do is cowardice. You remember those things called family, friends, hobbies, LIFE! they are the most important things on human’s life. We need to raise our children, we need to take care of our life partners, we must visit our uncles, grandfathers,aunts, others, etc; spend some quality time with friends, that is what makes us human, having that big fat account is not gonna make us happy. Again I will continue making sacrifices to improve my standard of living, but always trying to find an opportunity to balance my life in a better way.
Going back to the math. We still have the weekends don’t we, except that when we realized it we end up doing work stuff, answering that important email, analyzing perhaps some data, etc. Or doing other things that are necessary in our lives, cleaning, doing laundry.
So I ask, when is that we have Time to be humans???
P.S:”Comments and refutals are welcome; please expose your point of views on my comment. Sam I know by reading your post and comments that your point of view differs from mine so I would be more than glad that you find flaws on my arguments…”
Don’t know where we differ. I interacting with people, going out for nice meals, playing tennis and golf with clients, and grabbing that occasional happy hour. Enjoying what you do allows you to work 60-80 hours a week without any problem at all.
Sam, remember that most of us can’t count going out for nice meals and happy hours and playing tennis and golf as “work”.
Also, your advice to work 63 hours at $10 per hour would end up taking a lot more time than 63 hours. You would have to have 2 jobs because one employer wouldn’t let your work 63 hours because they would have to pay OT. So not only would you have to juggle 2 schedules, you would have 2 commutes, etc, 2 sets of time allotted to get ready for work, etc. This assumes you can’t get 2 jobs right next door to each other with schedules back-to-back.
If you are making $100 per hour or more, YOUR personal life may not be worth more than that to you. But if you are making $10-20 per hour, your life may be worth more than that to you. I’m at about $50 per hour, and I find that 40 hours is just about enough for me. Past that, MY life is worth more.
You also forget that many working people are parents of young children. Those children need parents to work to maintain a certain standard of living. But more important than riches for children is parents who are present.
I agree with you Janna, this is precisely my point. Some of us can afford to work as many hours as we can, hell I would work a 100 hours week if that would help me get further in my career, but there others that cannot do it, the reasons vary but there are reasond for it.
Now I am totally against those who collect unemployment and dont move a finger to find a job. I see “Now hiring” signs in plenty of places, are they lazy perhaps, not wanting to earn the minimum is not an excuse to place such a burden in the ones that are paying the taxes that keep the money flowing to the unemployed.
Sam sadly not everyone’s work includes doing such interesting and fun things as you are saying. Many people spend their work week traped on a cubicle, or in front of an oven. Working more than 45 hours for those people would drive them insane.
Right now I am a slave of the cubicle, now the difference between those who sit and complaint and me is that I am looking for a way to create a better future and break the chains of the cubicle. Go to a place where if I work a 100 hours a week , that sacrifice will make a difference. The solution… getting a degree(Economics & Finance degree).
I didn’t have the opportunity either for the first three years of my career. But slowly, they came as I asked to do new things. Your organization will want to maximize one’s potential if they have a decent culture. Perhaps it’s time to look elsewhere?
You are right!!!
OMG! You hit the nail on the head. I work 12-14 hours a day 6 days a week and several hours on the 7th. I am not tired from working; I am tired from hearing the uneducated, lazy, low wage earners complain about not having anything and how they are abused by the system. Maybe they should get off their lazy, obese behinds and put some efford in to something. To each their own–it is ok to be poor, but they don’t need to criticize me because I choose to work harder, longer, and smarter than most other people–and don’t criticize me because I am at the top.
This is the first time visiting this website! It is wonderful to see that there are still people out there that believes in hard work and personal gain. Thank you, Samurai!!!!!!
Welcome to my site. How did you find it?
Thank you, FS. I am so pleased I found you at Wisebread.com’s Top Personal Finance Blogs.
I found you googling about Income and what is considered middle class….I’m tuned in….I agree with a majority of your thoughts a few I’m on the fence but none the less I hooked! I’ve been on here 2 hrs now!
Over the last 2 decades there’s been a dramatic rise in the number of people who describe themselves as being ‘above average’ in the areas of work ethic and intellect. Watch out for the people that jam it down others throat…
Definitely share your opinion on this one. I know quite a few people who are strict 9 to 5’ers and regularly bitch about not having enough money. Occassionally, I’ll throw out a few ideas on how to earn some extra dough, or even offer up a small gig helping me out…….and almost always you can hear the crickets chirping. When presented with opportunities, they ignore ’em and prefer to go on believing they have a right to succeed without applying the extra effort. Very frustrating!
I think it’s genetic…..some people are just born without the ambition gene. Maybe we should work on some genetic ambition implants.
Not sure if it’s genetic. I think it’s more up ringing where parents coddle them towards entitlement and now the government is coddling them with more entitlements.
Dont get frustrated as I think complainers may actually secretly be very satisfied. They just want an ego boost.
If there’s one thing i know about you, it’s that you are not afraid to hit a nerve and it’s pretty obvious which blogger you are making reference to. Just because you only publish 2 to 3 articles a week it doesn’t mean that you are not writing everyday. I also am producing multiple episodes a week for my podcast so the blog is not the only priority. As far as burn out goes, I think everybody is built in different ways and while the situation may appear to you as a “vacation from vacation” i think people should do whatever they need to do to get them back to a place of being productive. Your point on putting in more time is a valid one and Im realizing that now
that I’m back here in the US with a reliable Internet connection and fully functional computer. But I think that it doesnt just come down to putting in more hours. It’s about spending those hours on high impact activities. You can write 5 blog posts every week but if you are compromising quality just to hit numbers and feel that you have accomplished more, then I don’t see the value in it. What I’ve been realizing over the last few weeks is that I have been spending my time in the wrong areas and that my priorities need to shift. At the end of the day all that matters is that you reach your goal. How you get there doesnt matter. Oh yeah, might as be clear that I can’t swim worth shit.
– the blogger from data point #4
Srini, are you sure Data Point #4 is you, or you are forcing your situation into data point 4? You’re a surfer not a swimmer.
Let’s address your situation anyway. Why do you think you have not achieved what you’ve wanted online so far? It seems to me you have a good podcast site and a personal blog that has some regular fans. Are you selling yourself short? Isn’t the income you’re making good enough?
Why do you think you can’t write more quality posts a week given this is your full time endeavor? Many bloggers out there produce quality content and don’t blog full time. We’ve also talked before how you espouse visiting other people’s sites to comment and build relationships, yet if we were to look at the number of my comments on your site vs yours here, it’s about a 10:1 ratio
Perhaps one motivational tip is to peg yourself against another blogger who has a bigger audience or traffic and see if you can match. It’ll help you focus on your goals more. You really should have no excuse not to kill it as a full time blogger with your two sites and full time capability. Get inspired by the part-time bloggers who are consistent, earning a healthy income, have a family and full time jobs like Darwin’s Money in a comment up above!
What is your goal at the end of the day? If you are unhappy with your progress and want to live independently, you’ve got to really be honest and question yourself what you aren’t doing right and what you can do better. Only you will know. You have so much potential and good posts, I’d love to see you soar with more content and production!
As far as the income, at the current time it’s actually the little bit I generate from my ebooks, and some freelance work. It’s not something I can live off of at the moment. In terms of not achieving what I’ve wanted, I think it comes down to focusing my efforts on areas that have a higher impact. Popularity doesn’t= profit. In terms of the comment ratio, you brought it up before, and it when you did I made a point to reciprocate. I also comment when I think I have something value to say. There are certain areas that you write about where my comments would add no value to the conversation because they are not things I have any knowledge of. As faras the ratio goes, given that we went as long as we did without me reciprocating, I might not ever be on 10:10 ratio with you.
In terms of writing more quality posts a week, at the current moment I’m actually aggressively guest posting on bigger blogs, publishing 2-3 episodes a week on BlogcastFM, and writing 3 posts for my own blog. I do like your idea of putting myself against another blogger for the sake of goals. So, don’t underestimate the amount of content that i’m producing, just because it’s not on my blog. But, I appreciate the fact that you see my potential. I’ve always thought you were smart even though I don’t always see eye to eye. There’s no question that my location independent experiment has taught me that I have to figure out what I need to do differently and better. That’s more or less been my focus since I hit the ground here in the US.
The best thing you wrote from your comment is “Popularity doesn’t = profit.” THAT is one of the points I’ve been trying to tell you for a long time!
Forget about your goal of hanging or being with “A-list” bloggers. That term you use is really debilitating. Forget about trying to guest post so often on someone else’s site. Forget about trying to get everybody to love you. Focus on your blog like you’ve focused on Blogcastfm, and I swear it’ll just get that much better. Don’t lose steam on the Skool of Life. Pretend your life depends on it. You don’t have to write NYTimes quality posts every time. You just have to be as dependable in the consistency of your writing as Old Yeller.
If you want to use someone as an anchor, or compete with someone to keep you motivated you are welcome to compete with me. We’ll keep each other motivated. Let’s rock!
How about the word “delusional”? What is more apt of a word?
So then should it be government delusions is what is demotivating America? :)
Me and my wife prior to joining union we both worked 40 hours plus my overtime at straight pay .we had to live in subsidized housing for 10 years .i thank God for the government .then and when i retire I’ll thank God for Medicare and social security .I’ll never understand this anti government help .but your ceo who just gave you your 4 hour job is a hero .they know every number in nascar but couldn’t wind their own watch with the sense they have about what is good for them these stop the free handouts WWJD PEOPLE. ..why would people want to stop their own checks from coming but fox makes it sound great to vote against your own self interest.
Where do you live? I’ve never heard of a 4x income comparison.
Perhaps some are just wired to complain or burn out. Donno.
Gotch, 2X sounds more reasonable. Housing is more expensive here because income is probably 2-3x the median there.
I think that people have so many options (including watching other people live their lives in reality TV Shows) that works is not longer as important to them. They watch shows like the Kardeshians and think they should be able to act that way too.
In some ways I prefer it that way, more opportunities for me :)
I work about 60 hours per week, including my primary job and my blog (as well as freelance articles on other sites under my blog brand), plus I have some volunteer hours. I’ve got a lot more income than I need, and while I’m always open for more, 60 hours is at about my sweet spot. Any more than that, and I feel like I’m not working for anything anymore. I’d prefer to use extra time to do other things (and not necessarily relaxing- often it’s learning or doing interesting things).
I agree that 40 hours is pretty low, at least for a single person.
As an aside, I don’t see how we’re heading towards socialism when income inequality is increasing. The US has more income disparity than basically every other developed country in the world.
60 is a pretty good amount and I could get used to that too. For now, I’m putting extra time while I have the energy to build the Yakezie. Once all the pieces are in place, I will just let the system takeover.
We are heading more towards socialism because our government is redistributing wealth and providing huge government programs. I’m all down for it when I retire b/c I certainly would love to get me some of that.
Except that less wealth is distributed than in most other developed countries.
No free education after high school, no universal health care, lower taxes, etc.
Top tax rates are lower than they were decades ago.
It doesn’t make sense to call one of the least socialist nations, socialist, or to say that we’re heading towards socialism when the income gap is increasing, and top tax rates are at a fairly low point in modern history of the country.
As far as the hours goes, the way I look at it is, blogging pulls in less income per hour than a primary job, but it’s a bit more fun than the primary job so it’s worth it.
Not sure if you are aware, but President Obama is fighting hard for Universal Healthcare, which I support, and raising taxes, which I also support, but for income levels much greater than $200,000.
That is redistribution of wealth.
So far, Obama has been somewhat unsuccessful at bringing about his Universal Health care (instead we got the patchwork Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act), and Bush era tax cuts were extended for 2 years from 2010 to at least 2012, when Congress will have to decide what to do with those.
It certainly is redistribution of wealth, but the point is it’s much less redistribution of wealth than basically every other developed nation. And while we could debate semantics, it’s not necessarily about raising taxes, but about letting tax cuts expire (since we’re at a lower top tax level than previously). The semantic point is relevant because rather than increasing taxes, if they were to expire, we’d be heading back to where we were a decade ago, and even then we had lower top tax brackets than decades before that. So to call America socialist, or heading towards socialism, is kind of like being of above average height in North Korea.
Great article, Sam… I agree with you completely. Working on a Salary (without overtime) and spending 80 hours a week on the job is about the standard around my workplace. And, although my annual salary is decent, when I factor in the number of hours of work, I’m much less impressed with my average hourly wage…
Great article, I totally agree with you!
I average 32 scheduled hours a week but as a nurse I could pick up hours or be called off depending on census. In someways, I agree with you about working more hours to earn more money instead of just complaining about barely getting by. That has been a pet peeve of mine since my first job lifeguarding when the people who always wanted to leave early were always the ones who complained about not having enough money. At this point in my life, I am good with typically working under 40 hours a week. I am not one to spend money excessively so I would rather have more free time compared to more money. I am just lucky I choose a career where I can have flexibility and enough money to live on.
Sounds like you have an excellent gig Rachael. More power to you for being able to work 32 hours a week. They key is that you’re happy and not complaining!
The reason people get paid overtime is because they job agreement with their employer is 40 hours a week. That’s the deal. You want more than the deal? Time to pay. Seems fair enough to me. Working free overtime is ridiculous – why would anyone do that? I could be having a nap instead – and if I’m not getting paid, that’s sure seems like a better alternative.
You’re bang on about the $33,000 per year though. If you’re not working, it’s because you’re not trying. And if you’re young, working longer than 40 hours a week is a perfectly viable way to get ahead. I used to work 70+ hours a week; my full time office job then bartend evenings and weekends. I could have had more free time, or I could have more money. Pick one.
Hours being present in your office doesn’t matter.
Productivity per hour worked is higher in Europe.
I guess the Europeans can tell themselves that to make them feel better about why their countries are crumblingZ
If you’re working ”smarter”, as you mentioned, you shouldn’t need to put in long hours. If you’re working silly hours, chances are that you can’t do your job well enough in a normal/acceptable time frame. Not to mention there’s likely a strong diminishing return of time spent in the office vs the quality of one’s work. Working all of the time, unless you need to meet frequent nightly deadlines for some reason, could flag weakness in a worker. Aside from IB and MC, working late every night could even draw attention to someone in a bad way. An overly competitive and out-of-touch workaholic could ostracise him/herself from peers.
That said, I don’t like complainers either. But by your logic, people who don’t improve their standard or calibre of work should be able to progress because they spend longer doing that same crap work.
As a side note, the French aren’t a decent sample population to draw Euro-wide conclusions from! Although we do work less than Americans.
Why not work longer and smarter? That combo is hard to beat!
There’s the answer!!
What are you, on coke? 40 hours a week is not a cakewalk. Is it all about money? I understand wanting to make a living but if you’re working 50 or 60 hours a week in order to own a new car and big house, I don’t get the point. Your beautiful car will be sitting in your parking lot at work and your big house will be empty (not to mention messy) all day. Maybe you hire a FT maid to do it– but someone’s got to clean. Also: cook, maintain a healthy lifestyle, etc. On top of cooking/cleaning, your 60 hours of “free” time each week will go towards commuting/running to the hardware store/getting groceries/taking out trash/getting ready for the next day.
You make comparisons to Obama and Mark Zuckerburg’s work schedule as if they are normal people– but I’m sure their “burnout” time is fast approaching. Not everyone can go go go go.
So, believe it or not, yes– there ARE really people who would rather work a regular 40 hour job and maintain relationships/hobbies which (GOD FORBID!) they don’t get paid for. I can’t imagine it’s easy to maintain relationships throughout such an time-occupying schedule, but if you feel like money is so important.. power to your wallet.
You missed the point of the article… are there really people who work 40 hours a week or less and COMPLAIN they can’t get ahead.
Many of you sound like a bunch of sorry old twats. What is “work”? what you get payed for?
I “work” near every damn hour of every single day I am awake. Minus about 12 full days of vacation or something. In my situation, I spend maybe 75$ a week on groceries (stupid things my kids and wife want) and we grow, tend, and kill the rest of our food. Chickens, our own cow, the gardens, and our cheese/vinegar/fermenting cellar are more than enough work all day every week – but I’m just doing it a different way.
When you pick up your kids from school (force mine to bike) or go to the grocery store to get your weeks supplies and cook dinner for your family, I don’t mind if you consider that work. It’s work for me, I’m just doing it a different way because I’m cheap and don’t like relying on others.
I guess it’s this seperation of work, family time, sleep, and whatever else that just seems stupid to me. Your life is one flowing mixed up not compartmentalized thing. When I used to work a normal job I would cut corners and piss in the corner every day.
Even If I was logging in 50 hours a week 10 of those were’nt worth half of the amount I was paid for them. Every job is different but Even at work, you aren’t that efficient so get the hell over yourselves before the world outsorces your sorry asses to a robot who bitches less and can type 400 words per minute on popular topics with wit, flair, and poise.
just do what you got to do, no one is forcing you into much. I agree with your general sentiments about people can (usually) make more if they want to- or like me, make WAY LESS but create the things you would normally spend money on..
got that way wrong- meant to say 75$ a month on groceries… if that. I don’t make a lot of money but we have many different forms of income so everything keeps up and if I need more money I sell more pickled vegetables and solicit myself around more.
I used to work at a place that was under-staffed a few years ago. There were a few of us that always signed up for extra shifts (i.e. putting us into OT). There were many others who seriously and vociferously complained. Yet never offered to help out in any way.
In later times I’ve heard people around (at the store, on the street, etc.) complain to companions, similar to your Data Point #1; “I had to work a shift today and now I’m so tired” I did not understand how a 4-6 hour shift could be so tiring. I’ve also heard and know others who seem unwilling to put in 30-40/week, yet complain incessantly about their situation. Usually followed in short order about how their situation is some one else’s fault.
I think that I have worked pretty hard since I was about 16. Since I left high school I think my shortest work day has been ~10-12 hrs. I have worked 3 jobs to make it and put off sleep. I am not the sharpest tack, but I feel certain that I am one that will be around for some while. If things go well, I’ll be in jeans & t-shirt that are ~3 yrs old forever w/ a portfolio worth a whole lot. Maybe when I die my kids can have something. Or a worthwhile charity.
@JR – I am a little confused by your story of the extra shifts. People take certain jobs for different reasons, but most people are trying to earn money. Many people working shift jobs would be thrilled to work extra shifts which would put them into OT because they will receive time and a half pay and earn a lot of money. They are probably not doing it to “help out”. By the same token, other people may have taken the job less for the dollars but rather to get health insurance, eg., and may have a family to get home to. In that case, working the extra shifts would not benefit them as much as having free time. I see taking a shift job is a business relationship between employer and employee. Everyone does what benefits him – both employer and employee.
On the other hand, if you are a salaried employee (rather than an hourly worker, which working shifts implies) and not receiving any compensation for the extra hours required due to under-staffing, then I would understand your feeling resentful of people not working the hours that you are. Although, I would be more resentful of the employer who made the decision to under-staff.
(Excuse me if my response indicates that I didn’t correctly understand your story.)
Not sure if you guys ever heard of this:
Try a 120-hour work week!
Wow, now THAT is ridiculous!
Hey Sam,
I’m pretty much 100% with what you’re saying here, but… some people DO get exhausted after 10 hours at the office. I’m one of those people, and I’m also really not a morning person. I know it’s something I need to fight against, but it is what it is, and some of us do have to deal with that. :P
I still agree with the lessons that you’re trying to convey, and the bit about the lifestyle blogger made me laugh! Were you just making that up or is it true!
Oh, to answer the question, I know lots of people that work less than 40 hours, but thankfully they don’t complain. A couple have a sugar momma, a couple more prefer drinking after hours, and a couple more prefer family time which is a perfectly valid choice to make IMO.
Since I started blogging and now that I’ve been ramping that up I started “working” more than 40 hours a week, sometimes a lot more, but I don’t consider that work in the same way!
It’s true, but it’s cool. He’s a good guy and if you comb through the comments, you might find something!
Found it. ;) That was actually pretty cool & inspiring in the end.
Lol! we live in a nation of slackers that’s for sure! I worked about 100 plus hours a week when I started my business. Being a full time, single mom, full time student, paying for daycare in the day and for the night, getting about 2,3 hours of sleep a day, it was rough. Yet it was doable, it takes discipline which I find most people simply lack. THe microwave generation sure has everything when they want it but forget about the cost opportunity of having it. Well a country that’s suppose to be so well educated, we are not really informed and those of us who are are very minute in numbers. what a shame :(
I’ve never heard of the term “microwave generation”. I thought that was for Gen X?
No point being well educated if one doesn’t put it to good use.
Well, I call it that. Can’t really remember where I heard it being used like that. I am speaking of generation XY since I am in early 30’s now. I have friends who work about 40 hours or less and are always complaining about the amount of money they make. You do not need to work 63 hours a week to make 33k though, I’d be smarter about it. I am in real estate, so I worked really hard for about 2 yrs making before being able to slack off for a bit. Before I started my business, I was making well over the 33k and working less than 63 hours. Going into business for myself gave me the mobility I needed, so I went to work for mi casa. Oh and I was reading your rant about the shady appraiser, let me tell you, they are not all bad apples :)
The real estate industry people are not all bad…my business in in real estate investing, and having a military background, my work is impeccable. It’s always a few bad apples giving us all a really bad name.
I agree about bad apples rottening the entire basket.
Good to hear there are still some good ones!
What does USsquid mean?
life isn’t ALL about working…atleast people in other countries know how to have social time with family and friends. LIVE a little. Who wants to be a corporate slave?? so what if you work less than 40 hours a week….are you competing against your neighbor because he/she has a bigger house or a nicer car? As long as you can afford basic necessities, no debt and have a roof over your head…..i would much rather spend my precious time with my family and friends.
I only work half the year now. I’m Canadian, and I work construction. We’re mainly outside in the winter, and it gets really cold. It gets so cold your eyes literally glaze over with ice when the wind hits them.
I’ve quit smoking, and quit drinking. I live simply. I find girlfriends who have similar interests, while weeding out the materialists. I cook most of my own food, and coffee or tea is my comfort food.
I’m actually paid quit low for my position. However, I still earn enough to sustain myself for almost 3 months for each month of work I do. That is to say, that the cost of my rent, food and entertainment is only a third of what I make in a month. The rest can go to savings.
Because I am earning and being taxed half the year, and then I suddenly cease earning, tax season is always great for me as well. I often get returns in excess of 3K because I didn’t work, in an industry that’s known for tax evasion because of the amount of overtime usually dolled out.
Some time around October it starts snowing, and I quit my job. I coast for up to 6 months not needing EI or welfare. There’s still almost 25% of my yearly earnings left over.
I am consuming less as a result, and also producing less, lowering my footprint and impact on the world, and conserving resources for the future. I only wish our society weren’t so stuck on the 40 or 60 hour work week, or was more acceptive of job sharing, so that I could share half my job with someone else and not have to start fresh each year.
Thanks for your perspective. Come down to California or Hawaii during your time off. You’ll love it down here.
If you’re happy with your situation, that is awesome. It is only those who are complaining about their situation, yet working less than 40 hours a week where we should be wondering…. HUH?
Sorry, but you sound like a guy whose only value in life is $$. How about time with family? Raising children? You’re not for Socialism? Then why are children of 70h-week workers raised by institutions? Why do you always eat, get your necessities, and everything else at an institution? Last time I checked, that was exactly the principles of Communism. :-)
News flash! You’re reading a personal finance blog.
And for the record, I’m all for socialism once I’m retired.
Obviously those who work more should be compensated more. But if at all possible, things should be set up so that one can fulfill all their needs (food, clothing, shelter, health care chosen by yourself rather than an insurance you didn’t even choose directly) and obligations (educating one’s children, religious obligations) without working more than 40 hours a week (or perhaps a better benchmark would be 56 hours including housework and commutes.)
Money is not the only important thing in life. There are other priorities, like family, spending time with children. Working for someone else is not the top priority in life. Students get a college education so they can work 40 hours a week and make a decent living. People need to spend time on themselves, hobbies, things you are passionate about outside of work. You don’t live to work, you work to live. And you don’t need much in this life to live a happy and healthy life. But if someone wants to go kill themselves working many hours during the week so they can have lots of $ to spend on fancy cars, fancy iphones, etc. then go be it. But before you know it, ten years have gone by and you’re still working many hours and working for someone else. This entire article seems geared towards workaholics. YOu say people in France complain when they need to work 40 hours or more, well europeans value their time with family and themselves as a priority over working for the man. Personally, 40 hours a week of my life are wasted on working so I can make my money to pay off my obligations, but I don’t get those 40 hours a week of life back. They’re gone, sitting at a computer multi tasking, stressing out. We’re not meant for that. We hardly move sitting in an office, no wonder so many of us are unhealthy, send our 3 month olds to daycare, are overweight and stressed out. We should be healthy, we should have time to work out and eat healthy, sit at night and eat with our families at the dinner table, take care of our infants rather than sending them to daycare so they can raise them for us. Working over 40 hours a week is NOT the answer.
Some great excuses. Of course money isn’t the most important thing in life!
This post is for people who want to get ahead, but are wondering why they can’t with their limited work hours.
I manage a gas station and I give my crew 40 hrs each and a Tab account that they could buy stuff and charge it on it. Than to pay it back I tell my crew that I will pay regular pay in cash or give them credit on there Tab Account ,but they don,t have to work after there schedule hr s it is all up to them to decide if they work extra hours is this legal the way im doing this
Wow! Oh boy, I worked 80 hours a week on the golf course or taking my clients to Applebees. We all know why the 40 hour work week was in place. Not for rich upper-middle class sales people to get paid overtime networking and synergizing with there pals at a nudey bar, but to stop the miner from mining 12 hours a day weekends included.
Look back at history at see how the law has shaped this land. The blogs you write are read by people taking a break from their jobs. Fair labor laws etc is what allows this.
Outsourcing jobs to other countries so corporations can pay jack for 80 hours a week to a single mom living in a dump is a crime, actually a felony here.
The only reason you people agree with this jerk is that you are trying to validate how hard you work. But seeing that you are on this site, looking for this validation probably shows that you really don’t believe this. Go home and spend some time with your kids. Go fishing, work off that gut.
When you job gets “Outsourced” to India and no one will hire you since a middle managment position at Best Buy is worth about as much as 3 months on the job at Taco Bell, you’ll agree with me.
Hmmm, bitter much?
Ironic much? Your article tastes of bitterness as well.
Hard work =/= success. As much as I hate networking, I know it is the people whom I take my lunch breaks with that help me more than the extra hours behind my computer.
However, I do agree that you often have to put in the extra hours to get noticed. I used to work with a person who did 1/3 of the work that I did on a daily basis but she complained so much the boss recognized her for staying 5 extra hours a week. I never offered to work overtime because it was unecessary, all she had to do is streamline her process and her desk would be clean at the end of the day like mine. I offered to finish tasks for my co-worker and repeatedly asked for more work to which my boss replied that there was no more work. If there is no work, there should be no overtime.
Most definitely. I sometimes get bitter I have to work late while other people get to leave early no doubt. And then I tell myself to STFU and embrace the opportunities given to me.
I think you’ll enjoy this post I just wrote on 5/22/2014: https://www.financialsamurai.com/dear-minorities-use-racism-as-motivation-for-achieving-financial-independence/
Sam,
Interesting. Very very interesting! I work on average 60 hours a week, and do quite well thank-you-very-much. My partner gets paid for 40 hours but quite often does 60+ as well.
We are comfortable. We are going places.
Like you I hear people whine they worked ‘a hard 32 hours’ last week, and their employer was so ungrateful. And I shake my head in shame. What IS this world coming to?
I’m not sure who you people are. I NEVER hear anyone complain about working 32 hours. (And could we get rid of the word “whine”? It’s what children do and if you apply it to adults, you are putting yoursef way above those you label, and that’s pretty superior and annoying.)
If you have a huge passion for your work, fine, knock yourself out. But don’t be so hard on people who may only be able to work 40 hours a week for reasons you may not know, and, yes, they are frustrated about not getting ahead. And they may voice that frustration. Why do you care? Because YOUR hard-earned dollars are supporting someone’s “entitlement”? Please. You’d think we were living in Sweden.
I have lived all over the world for work and I have only seen in the US the bragging that goes on about hours worked–it’s like some of kind of machismo and not at all appealing.
The message behind this post is based on a flawed assumption. The assumption that working more hours will cause you to produce more. It isn’t true. Here, this post says it much better than I could.
alternet.org/visions/154518/why_we_have_to_go_back_to_a_40-hour_work_week_to_keep_our_sanity/?page=entire
“My friend in HR said her firm is implementing overtime compensation for certain level of workers who work more than 40 hours a week. I asked her why her firm was rewarding their workers for working hours they’re supposed to anyway?”
This is truly monstrous and stupid. Who determined that? When? Are all you people cheerleading this attitude really serious? Take a five minute break [horrors!] from pulling on those bootstraps and working yourself into an early grave instead of an early retirement to understand why a 40 hour work week is what we should all be working.
salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/singleton/
The reality is many, especially in Europe, want lives where they WORK TO LIVE…not LIVE TO WORK.
I don’t knock anyone who is ambitious and wants to put in 60-80 hours a week to climb the ladder faster, but in today’s modern environment, companies simply think they can work you 60-80 hours a week but still pay you crap like you only did 40 hours.
Look at our environment now. You have to be willing to give your life to the job, and never complain that you’re tired or want to go home at night and on weekends to see your family. In fact, you’re seen as more valuable if you don’t get married and don’t have kids…so your only thing in life is work. Don’t you dare get older, or else you’re out. Don’t get too ambitious, or your boss will find a way to get rid of you before you replace him/her.
A high salary is supposed to be paid for one’s utility and scarcity. So a basic accountant will not get much because he/she is easily replaceable…but a financial whiz who brings millions in profits to the company should get paid a lot because he/she is a valuable asset. Whether or not this aset works 2 hours a week or 80 hours a week is meaningless.
PLUS…many companies often just plainly do it all wrong. They need to let go of the obsolete model of bodies in desks as an illusion of productivity. Do more telecommuting for starters, and allow workers to take their off time for themselves…so you have a two week period where things end up in limbo due to planning or approval from somewhere…let everyone take the time off without losing PTO.
AND…when workers get pulled into working an insane week or month to make something big happen…reward them. Raises, bonuses, promotions, and even just added PTO days will do wonders. Yet employers fear payroll costs and worry that promotions will lead to people using them to bargain for better jobs with competitors. Um…if they would do that, then it shows you never gave them a reason to be loyal.
We have a very screwed up way of thinking about work in the US, and it’s why families are such a mess now. We need to let go of the past and think “work smarter”. My goal in life is to make great money with that elusive “work-life balance”…and even if I have to move to France to get it, I will. No career is worth your health or your family.
I think all of us would like to make great money while kicking back no? Alas, that ain’t going to happen!
We need to make some sacrifices to get the rewards we seek. Those who are younger or who work less than 40 hours a week and complain why they aren’t superstars need to get a reality check.
There are some of us that simply don’t care about money, though! I always made enough to get by and fund my emergency fund, but never really worked more than that. I didn’t have much, but I also didn’t care, because I was happy.
Sadly, my mom passed when I was in my mid 20s. She was wealthy, and she left my brother and I quite a bit of money – about 2 million apiece. It was enough to pay for apartments in full (a non-ghetto 2bed/2bath in this city is $500,000 minimum… crazy real estate market), and invest in the rental market and live off the interest without touching the principal+inflation (assuming 3% inflation) – about $40k/yr after taxes.
My brother is a flashy guy. He likes expensive clothes, cars, and other items of status. He’s not a snob — he doesn’t judge those that don’t have the things he does. He simply has expensive taste, and enjoys spending a lot of money on a regular basis. As such, he chooses to work full-time, bringing in another 40k or so per year. He one day wants to have a big family and to be “rich”. His work drive is currently mitigated by his investment income, or I think he would work a LOT more. He is someone truly driven and motivated by money. I, however, am the exact opposite.
I am a frugalista at heart. I choose to enjoy my free time and pursue my hobbies and passions – none of which involve much money, except maybe travelling. The only things I spend large amounts of money on are typically ones that will net me a nice return (ex: buying a good quality sofa vs a cheap one, and not having to replace it for ~15-20 years, saving me $ over time). Never once have I dreamed of complaining because my brother makes twice as much as me – I’m lucky enough to not have to work more than a few hours per week (to maintain the investments, post rental ads, etc), and my income is more than enough for me!
I’m curious, in my situation, would you choose to not work, or choose to continue working?
Not sure. With $2 million inherited in your 20’s, the only motivation to work is your own pride to see what you can do on your own.
Only you can decide.
Haha! Well, I have never worked more than 40 hours a week in my life. Maybe every once in a while I might have put in a 50 hour week if a big project was due. I have to say that I disagree with this to some extent:
“However, if you are complaining about life and why you don’t have enough money and only work 40 hours a week, you need to get your head checked.”
I see what you’re getting at, but working MORE is not necessarily the answer. You did mention working smarter, but I think the key lies right there. When I worked in an office, I looked around me and more than half the office was not working very smartly. They waste their time, browse the web, talk to co-workers. I would work hard for 2-3 hours, take a walk, and come back for more hard work. I’d come in at 9am and leave at 5pm most days and I got more accomplished that a lot of folks. And, I hate to say it, but some people are just smarter and get things done much more quickly. They are more efficient. If you can work effectively, you’re probably doing better than 90% of your co-workers. I know that was true for me.
Of course, I worked in software and every field is different. A nurse who works 10 hours a day would probably be very tired, where as an office worker who sits on a chair all day is probably fine after 10 hours (especially if there are perks like fancy lunches and whatnot). Some jobs are pretty cushy.
Also, some people have kids and families and working more than 40 hours per week is not necessarily possible (or a good idea cause kids grow up fast, you know). I knew a lot of people that worked long hours just to be away from their families. That’s just sad, I think.
So yeah, people are complainypants when it comes to finances (I used to know a lot of them), but I think that the majority of them waste their money or just don’t understand their finances. I’m also not a fan of those that complain, but don’t do anything about it.
Honestly, I am amazed that people work as much as they do. Working too much is apparently the single biggest regret of the dying. Spending time with family and building community, volunteering, and doing good for the world are things I believe we should be doing more — they feed our souls. If we stopped being so wasteful in our spending, we could work less AND be financially healthy.
Yes, single moms CAN earn $33K if they have two jobs and want to pay thousands a year in extra day care. To them it is not worth the extra expense. Why pay a day care and Uncle Sam together 80 cents or more on the dollar from a second job?
I wouldn’t either. A single mom’s job is worth around $100,000 in my book. The greatest people I look out to are single moms. They know how to get things done and juggle everything. One of my close friends is a single mom and she makes me catch myself whenever I feel like whining or complaining. Single moms are amazing!
If you are experienced in your profession, you should be able to do the job in 40hrs/week, blue collar or white. If you are new to the field, than you may need 50-60hrs per week to get up to speed, “for a while”. On the flip side. If you work a labor intensive position, than yes, 40hrs is plenty. If you are a desk jockey, than 50hrs is plenty. Any more than that and you’d be cheating yourself and family out of a LIFE.
The biggest problem is with salaried employees and their managers who don’t understand, or at least do not make it clear, as to what normal working hours are. Letting one guy get ahead by working after hours is fine, “if needed”, but don’t expect the rest of the team to follow. These expectation are what drive stress levels high and production low. Find smart workers who can get the job done on time within hours or find a manager who can better organize a tight schedule.
Bottom line…
The worst thing you can do is WORK FOR FREE.
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. That’s you sir. You want to ask questions about people who, but you care nothing about what is said by them. Start a question that is already answered just means that you are doing nothing but ranting. You did it poorly at that, since you trolled others in this post, instead of research. You speak about jobs and hours like they are overflowing where you are. At that go screw yourself. It IS about separation and you are part of it. Go back home to your hating self. Oh wait you probably work from home blogging. I see you joining the future socialist party to void out anyone going against your game. Working $10 an hour. You need a reality check on who will offer someone a 10 an hour job and how many are available. Sure I could work those hours at minimal, Plenty of jobs out there would love to pay me that slave credit…Since I can’t even get a check or a stub anymore, we’ll call it that. Last note: QUIT HATING you are listening too much to people who have no clue. 33,000 and working over 40 work weeks. Do your family a treat, spend some time with them, or is paper currency the only thing you chase. Secondly, they probably already gave you up. To leave u in the snow to freeze.
Should I send you a souvenir from one of the 8 countries I visited last year with my 6 weeks of vacation?
I feel your frustration. Just try harder. You can do it!
Presumably this website is run by someone who presumes to be some kind of financial guru, but in truth this is shocking advice for what i can only assume are very gullible people. They key is not working stupid hours, but having or gaining a skill where you can work far less than 40 hours and earn far more than you would in some stupid slave labor service position with some crappy Mccorporation. Get a life people! Out of the US , its actually very rare for people to work more than 40 hours. This is shockingly naive. For the record, i work in the US , in IT for an american bank , im contracted to work 40, but i “work” about 4 hours a week and im STILL more productive than most. In my vast spare time i do whatever i please, at home. People, you need to work smart, not hard. This crap written here sums up america in a nutshell. Overworked, overstressed and with a constant need to buy more and more crap.
I have never presumed to be a financial guru. I just made my first million by 28, lost a lot in 2009, recovered, learned, wrote about my journey, and retired at 35 in 2012 this year. You can read my About page here.
I don’t want to hear people complaining about not getting ahead if they are working less than 40 hours a week, when there are plenty of people working 50-70% more.
I’ve got all the time in the world now and am financially independent, largely because I put in the hard work when I still had the energy. Share more of your story.
Working that much is never a smart thing to do unless you have a short term goal, and you are going to work that much to accomplish it, but not kill yourself everyday of your life sacrificing everything else just to have money sitting in the bank that you don’t even have time to enjoy. The smart thing is to get smarter and use your potential to get better paying job or become your own boss. More output with less input is the key to live a great life. The great Dalai Lama said: Men sacrifices his health to make money.Then he sacrifices his money to recuperate his health. And then he so anxious about the future that he doesn’t enjoy the present. The result being that he doesn’t live the present or the future. He lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.
Interesting – I’ve always need between 9 and 10 hours of sleep a night in order to function properly. I envy that you only need 5 or 6. For some people though working that much in unrealistic and unhealthy. I’m currently debating whether or not to take a job in the city which would require me to commute from the suburbs (2 hours per day). Doing this would me that I would need to be asleep by 8:30pm and wake up by 6:00am in order to get into the city on time (these times also depend on train schedules). At the end of the day I’d be home around 6 eat dinner and basically immediately head to bed. This leaves zero time for anything that I’d like to do. Anyway, some people just need more sleep and employers should be more understanding of this. Yes, I want to get ahead. Yes, I want to make more money. Although, I am in no way willing to jeopardize my health or appear lazy on-the-job due to lack of sleep.
Theres more to life than work. Who the hell wants to spend all day, everyday, at the same place doing the same thing??? 40 hours is more than enough. Live life, enjoy family, day trips, vacations. Whats your tombstone gonna say? “Here lies a man that worked” ?
Agreed! Just no complaining if you don’t have enough money or aren’t satisfied with your job or career progression. All is rational!
You’re totally missing the meaning of life here- when you are on your deathbed, which you absolutely CAN end up in early when you’re getting 5hours of sleep a night, do you think you’re going to be happy you spent the mass majority of your time working?? No. You would be kicking yourself for not spending mire time with your lived ones. The only people that only care about making more money are those who are saving for something in particular, have no close lived ones that they see daily or people who are just plain greedy. Do you think your family will be happy you worked constantly and where never home so you could bring home another 15,000 dollars, give or take, a year? Life isn’t about money. I’m astounded so many people just label those who don’t want to waste their life working as “lazy”. Maybe they just get that money is nothing at the end if the day.
Adama, I think you are missing the point. I’m all for people relaxing and living the good life. I do that now as an early retiree! Read the post to learn more.
What I find peculiar are people who only work 40 hours a week a COMPLAIN why they can’t get ahead when those who are getting ahead are working much longer hours!
Sorry for the typos- typing on an iPod here. I also want to add that working more can easily be replaced by learning a valuable skill while working 30-40 hours per week. I think only people who have actually done something TO get ahead, such as learned a trade or gotten an education of some kind can complain when they have to work over 40 hours a week to make it. It irritates me when my husband’s friend, who’s 34, complains that he “has to” work more than 40 hours for ten bucks an hour when he didn’t bother graduating from high school and has done absolutely NOTHING to get a better job- including apply for another one! He sits around whining about a job that he has made no effort to get out of like he’s a victim when in fact he just wants sympathy and a free ride. Now THAT is laziness. I do agree though, that you can’t complain when you have all the power in changing it.
I couldn’t agree with you more. Which is the gist of my post.
Pay your dues folks!
Wow, money is all that matters to you eh? What a pathetic person you must be. Go ahead and write your epitaph now “I wish I spent more time at work”
To not care about money, you first need to care a great deal about money. At 35, I’m retired due to savings, investing, and hard work. Now I live completely free on my passive income and work on what I want to do.
You’ve come to a personal finance blog btw. Do you expect the topic not to be about money?
Stumbled across this. I don’t work 40 or less but first impressions: 2 women on bus…married? going home to kids?10 hours of work plus 5 of kids is tiring I would think. I have no kids work ~12-14 hours a day at desk job with 1.5 hours break but go home to do whatever I want..aka meals can be a bag of chips, beer in front of t.v.
The other point that struck me: are you sure those people up for overtime compensation were getting paid in first place. I’m salaried and don’t get paid for overtime, but am expected to work by project meaning I am here from 7am-7pm due to time zones and such. Non-salaried workers are forbidden to work overtime and it is deemed my mismanagement if they can’t get their work done on time (meaning I have to pick up where they left off). I did get a 30,000 per year increase though to become salaried so can’t complain. Just thoughts.
I don’t get why working “only” 40 hours a week is so criticized. You can be super productive in those 40 hours, especially with technological advantages we have over previous generations. You have to consider that those 40 hour work weeks were established when people didn’t have smartphones or even fax machines. I understand that working more hours on special projects or during busier times is good office politics but consistently working over 40 hours all year round is asking for burn-out. I also think people should think about their salary as per hour. If you make more $, but always work 50-60 hours, you may actually make less per hour than someone who works 40 hours. just food for thought.
It’s not. It’s working only 40 hours a week and then complaining why one can’t get ahead that is the point here. Nobody should complain if they aren’t putting max effort to achieve their goals.
it’s about being smarter not working harder.
You can put max effort with 40 hour work weeks and more hours when needed for special projects or deadlines. There are many people who put in more hours just for face time and inefficiencies, and are being taken advantage of in many ways. Your salary is based on the assumption of 40 hours. If you are always working more, then your company is understaffed and/or you’re not that efficient.
I had a coworker who came from the 60 hour work culture and thought that was the ONLY way to get ahead ( and it may be true for some companies and industries unfortunately due to people who subscribe to the belief that ONLY working 60+ hours = formula for success). Anyway, she had trouble adapting to a company with more work/life balance and where people actually stepped away from the desk for lunch. I noticed that she would make silly mistakes and then have to spend time fixing them. As just one example, she created a new spreadsheet to track projects. It was beautiful and more detailed than our existing one, but required 3x as much time to update. Needless to say, no one wanted to take that extra time just to update her spreadsheet. Sometimes people create more work and then need those extra 60 hours to do their work. just more food for thought!
No doubt there is a lot of face time involved at work, which is a waste for work’s sake.. but it might not be a waste from an image and career standpoint. If you are the boss who is always staying later than your subordinate, you are going to be hardpressed to provide accolade even if the employee is doing all of his/her work. Unless you work for a monopoly, there is ALWAYS something more someone can do.
people that work 40 hours or less, most likely hate their jobs. I mean could you work flipping burgers for more than 40 hours per week? I couldn’t.
But what if you were a football sports fanatic and you were offered a job to report on football. would you kind working 80-100 hours per week? Nope, you probably love every minute of it.
I’m really surprised how many conformist, brain washed people are here. I know everyone is scared about having to provide for their family and the last five years have sent everyone into painful of anxiety, but working 40 to 60 hours is insane. It’s just insane.
Somewhere, you started buying into the whole kids / mortgage / new car nightmare and somehow decided that being succesful at those antiquated paradigms equaled “getting ahead”. As a result of your myopathy, now EVERYONE has to succumb to rediculous standards while less and less people get the opportunity to chase their true passions. Meanwhile pharmaceutical companies and lawyers are cleaning up on your psychological idiosyncrasies and divorces. You don’t have time to balance it all, let alone enjoy it. I doubt most of you have hobbies that you’re actually GOOD at.
I work full time and then spend my evening working another 4 to 6 hours cultivating my dream job. It’s brought me to this. Taking the minutes before bedtime wondering if anyone else feels like me. I guess not. I see a lot more people turning the corner on suicide. A lot more people telling others that it’s ok. I’m starting to believe it. I’m starting to think it might be, in some way, the best option for many.
Have you ever noticed that people that can create interesting and engaging conversation are becoming famous? Physicists, comedians, scientists, globe hopping journalists… You know why? They’re interesting to us because they’re passionate about topics that resonate with the human condition. Not some soul grinding toil dealing in construction or warehousing. Now ask yourself, when was the last time someone in construction or logistics held your interest with a mind blowing epiphany? It doesn’t happen. Not here.
We trade one cubicle for another. 1 hour commutes each way to a place that you have to stay for 10 hours and only get paid for eight. But your so conditioned, it makes you feel above it all to just submit and tell others to suck it up. It’s maddening.
You may enjoy this post: https://www.financialsamurai.com/2012/07/08/taking-a-leap-of-faith-retiring-on-own-terms/
If you work another 4-6 hours after working full time, are you not working more than 40 hours a week to try to get ahead?
this post makes no sense at all, first of all I can’t work more than 40 hours a week, they don’t allow us in our office (insurance), they won’t pay 1 minute extra of salary. second I make o.k money, I’m happy with my life, I don’t want to sacrifice my life and family just for work. 40 hours is a full time job and is the normal. I want to spend time with my daughter on weekends and evenings and not be seating at work after my normal 8 hours. well aside that I won’t allow us to work more than 1 minute. there as so many things you can do in your free time, spend time with your family, go to the gym, take day trips on weekends, go to church, the movies, relax at home. you don’t have to be a slave.
Excellent. So there’s no need to complain of you can’t get ahead or don’t have as much money as you want. Fair enough?
@ Fin-Edu
I believe we are living in a time where the employer is empowered to treat employees almost like slaves to get the work done no matter what b/c they have a line of people waiting to be employed.
I agree that quality of life is so important so we can raise good hearted children who see that work is important but not more so than health, family, dreams, etc.
40 hours a week is plenty and these days there are several like me who work 11 to 13 hour days some weekends too.
I have thought that if we considered 30 to 35 hours a week full-time that some people would not abuse that but work more efficiently or productively b/c they are able to enjoy other areas of their life.
I hear people say that their work is like their home. We have gifts to share so if we are run-down how ca we truly feel at our best? If we love what we do then we have tons of energy but
our bodies still need rest and time for play. Naps in offices could do wonders. Genuine regard for employees could reap more for employers and those the employer serves than anything else.
We are human beings not machines.
Hope our values and visions of what is possible shift.
You will enjoy this post I just wrote! https://www.financialsamurai.com/2013/02/26/how-employers-take-advantage-of-employees-to-save-money/
If she worked 10 hours, commutes an hour both ways, makes meals, does her own cleaning, eats breakfast and dinner, that equals 15 hours. That gives her only one discretionary hour, in order to get a full night’s sleep. One discretionary hour per day is not enough. Maybe you believe life is all work, but other people like to have time to square dance, have a hobby, run the City Council, volunteer, do their own errands, taxes, car repairs, laundry, home improvements, finances, pay bills, make investments, attend civic ceremonies, play with their children, exercise their pets, groom well, shop, arrange and complete medical and automotive appointments, take care of grandma and the widow down the block, go to church twice a week, clean the roof, maintain the landscaping, and so on. And exercise. You should, too.
I like how you include your lunches, golf games and blogging in your “work” week, OP. I should pad my weekly work hours with similar bs, it would make me sound far more hardcore.
You should. You too can blog and make big bucks. Give it a go!
More American brainwashing. Freak that i work 40 hour or less money means nothing. I just need enough to pay the bills and keep a roof over me. I constantly turn down overtime. Ive only worked passed 40 maybe 3 times in the past 5 years.
So long as you don’t comain why you don’t have more money or can’t get ahead, all is good!
For some people, work is fun though and exhilarating. Perhaps the people who don’t like working 40 hours a week need knew occupations because they don’t like their jobs?
Personally, I am with you in that I LIKE working longer hours and doing more. I like to work as much as I feel is necessary to get the job done and deliver a quality product. Unfortunately though, I think the majority of workers are working for a salary.
Apologies for typos. *new
working over 20 hours a week is overkill. If you need to work 40 hours your inefficient. “Success” isn’t how much money you make, its how many people you love. Sounds like you want to spend your time “working” as you call it. Chill out… you bought into the hype that you need all kinds of stuff. Keep it simple and work 15 to 20 hours and enjoy life…
I retired at 34 and don’t work at all anymore.
Here’s my old passive income stream report which has since grown by about 40%. Stay tuned for an upcoming post.
I’d love to hear your story (age, work experience, plans for retirement) given your belief that working more than 20 hours a week is overkill.
Cheers
Congratulations, you have become a well trained, good sheeple! Go ahead and work exorbitant hours, earn next to nothing, while your employer makes gazillions off of your broken back. Your relationships suck and your family life, if you have one, is horrible because the government raises your kids, and your spouse turns to food, drugs and alcohol, or someone else to ease the lonliness. You keep slaving for the man. We choose to live off grid, growing our own food, and providing love, life, and happiness for our families!
Hi FS,
I ran into your blog 2 months ago! I enjoy reading your older blogs, and the newer ones!
I’m on my way to start things out (albeit a bit late) – maxing out the 401k, generate rental income, and have an X-factor! I need to focus more on my dividend income and CD interest income. I started late, and am 32 now. But this blog inspires me.
I made the mistake to not read your 10% car purchase, so I’m paying for that mistake.
Do you have any suggestions on other passive income besides rental, dividend, and CD interest income?
I would love to hear more ideas — right now i’m paying off debt that I acquired in my late 20s and early 30s, but I would love to hear what small changes I could make while paying off that debt. (Active income is $115k)
Car debt is $1300/mo
House financed @220k and is $1800/mo (including prop tax)
It seems like you outline a lot of the financial problems I have made in my 20s and early 30s!
Anyways, keep blogging and I hope to change things around.
$1300/month for a car payment? I hope you have a cool ride for that kind of money. Any possibility of trading it in for a lower cost vehicle?
FS: I have generally been working 72 hours or more a week at times. While I was in the military and depending on the training/deployment situation working 12 plus hours a day was normal, so I got used to it. When I worked 8 hours or less, wow it felt like I had soooo much free time. Now that I am in the private sector I have still been working a lot of 12 hour days, but I am used to it and its not as bad any more. It could be worst I could be up in the mountains of afghanistan for months on end carrying over 80 pounds of gear in area over 10k feet above sea level. So yes now life seems great to me! I just recently setup my personal cap account and I just reached a net worth of 300k and just turned 29 recently, lifes good for me. I plan to take a month off in November/December, probably do a two diving trip at a island south of Thailand, can’t wait!
My next step in life is to put that money to work and come up with ways to make passive income. So I too can retire early if I want too :) Hope your doing well!
I work 40 hours a week, a regular 9am – 5pm job, plus commute 2 hours a day. So from 8 am to 6 pm, I am not at home with my family. And yeah, I am exhausted sometimes, because I also have my UNPAID work of taking care of my 2 children and home on evenings and weekends. Fortunately, I make enough money and get benefits at one full time job. However, I can understand very well how 2 women would complain about being tired and not getting ahead — you seem to forget that they probably took 2 hours before their regular work day getting their family up, fed, and ready for school, and then have to go home to a few more hours of work. You should be able to support a family on 40 hours a week, but, at minimum wage, many people cannot.
Thanks for sharing.
The women were all in the early to mid 20s with no families. Perhaps this is a case of millennial stereotype entitlement. Just sharing what I hear.
I would love to have one 40 hour or more job. I am 59 years old, stayed at home raising a family, doing lots of volunteer work, and fundraisers or organizations (even raising $10,000 in one day). But after 30 years of marriage my husband divorced me for another woman, forcing me into the work force. I don’t mind working but corporations control the job market and they aren’t giving 40 hr jobs to people my age. For several years I worked 3 part time jobs and still did not get 40 hrs a week. I have a college degree but that doesn’t matter. 20 year olds are getting promoted to management positions without a degree or management experience over older more mature people. I have yet to find a 20 year old who works as hard as older people. They spend so much time on their cell phones or talking about any drama going on in their lives instead of working. Be glad if you do get 40 hrs a week.
Mary – Thanks for your perspective. You make a very good point about the difficulty of even landing 40 hrs. With this new economy of part-time labor and “gigs,” it’s definitely getting harder!
What is getting ahead? What is this big race you are doing lol. Before you know it you’ll be 60 and spent all your time working while I have spent more life having fun. Who is the winner then? I work 32 hours a week and I do all the hobbies I want and buy all the things I want while you’re stuck at work so I can enjoy your hard labor.
Phew! Good thing I retired at 34. Life is good :)
I work 58-60 .I’m a teamster and work freight .Our contract requires the company to pay overtime after 8 hours not 40 time and half on 6th day double time on 7th day triple on holidays .so stop watching fox news tell you being in a union is bad for you .I know we all can’t be organized..but unions are needed now than ever before… when so many here are thankful just to be treated like dirt .
A few last things to consider ..if you are a wage earner your ceo bosses salary has increased 400% in the last 10 years ..you mr.or Mrs working persons salary is stagnant for the last 10 .virtually every single labor benefit you may have was brought to you courtesy of organized labor .The very fact that you are talking about a 40 hour work week labor gave that to you …along with what is called the weekend .labor forced labor laws into mainstream work force .unions enforce corporate to abide .it wasn’t until Reagan and trickle down anti labor agenda ..now currently the tea party.were these laws seen as unecessary and unproductive .During a time of war against the American worker and groups such as the tea party putting in place anti workers politicians it’s is vital every worker stand up for labor because are the barometer to your work environment and anything good in it .facts are history not on fixed news .
The author of this article is just a little too proud of what worked for “him”, and believes that anyone not as lucky or fortunate as him is complacent or unwilling. Let him live the of a family man or a college student forced out of the house to make their own way, and he will gain some perspective. Life is an emotional experience, not a logical one – what has worked for one will not work for anyone.
I will leave this article with something new learned, albeit the opposite of what the article intended. Treasure is in your family and relationships, not in how young you’re able to retire, for this author’s goals are incredibly socially constructed and temporary. Your investment will not be their by your side in old-age.
Please remember to enjoy life before retirement folks.
Don’t get me wrong Z, I’m all for YOLOing, which is why I decided to pull the rip chord and enjoy life more rather than work until 50-60-65 because I have to.
My way of working hard is only one way. Today is Tuesday and I was ripping down verticals after 2 feet of powder dumped here in Lake Tahoe (up here this week). I struck up a conversation with a young guy who works at a hardware store and he said, “Yo bro, the conditions are sick out here yo! Give me powder over money any day yo.” He and are went two different paths, yet we landed in the exact same plane. Enjoying epic powder up at Squaw Valley.
To each their own!
As a manager I used to work 60hrs regularly ,but was only paid for 40, that was my choice ;I didn’t have to .I got a car ,fuel allowance but never got much more recognition or thanks and no more money ;I think the word is Mug.
If your’e so driven why have you retired at 35 ? Sounds as if you’re really Lazy deep down.You don’t really like or want to work ,well only the minimum you need to do,so a contradiction there . Look at the real hard workers , Richard Branson, Bill Gates ,Lord Allan Suggar; those guys Work hard and are really driven .
Do you think a Doctor retires at 35 ; hell no their career is just really starting they will go on another 20 years or more.
Most People are not work shy ,sure a lot of people moan ,but a lot of people have hard proffesional vocational careers , Nurses ,Police,Fire Fighters etc, working nights,split shifts ,weekends .Do you want these to take another job ? I’m sure you would have advocated the good old days of the Satanic Mills we had in Britain a hundred years ago 16 hr days ,poor pay ,conditions and high mortality.
Good questions.
Have a read at some follow up posts:
https://www.financialsamurai.com/consulting-for-a-tech-startup-part-time/
https://www.financialsamurai.com/should-i-continue-working-as-a-contractor-or-go-full-time/
Man, I worked two gigs for 2 years and I say F**K that. Man, I am happy working working one job Monday through Friday and I don’t have to take any work home. There is nothing like getting off work, parking my bike in right in front of Peete’s Coffee’s eating my Skittles and watching the ladies walk by while everyone else is busy working on their laptops. Pm weekends I go to the Vietnamese cafe and drink smoothies all day while I talk to the girls in thongs while other people are working weekends to ‘get a head’? To get out of the ‘comfort zone’? I’m glad I’m not them. I work so I can be comfortable. All I need is my $500 a week so I can park my bike at the end of the week at the Farmer’s Market and lay down with my feet up on the bench. Whew, I’m glad I don’t stress about the bullshit.
Love it man! If you’re enjoying life, that’s all that matters.
It’s just those who want more but aren’t willing to work more that seems so strange.
You might want to throw in a personal disclaimer from your “About Financial Samurai” section:
*Can happily function on just six hours of sleep (or less) per day
I need a solid 9 hours of sleep to function at maximum efficiency. My average day looks something like this:
6:30-8 Wake up, prepare for work, commute to work
8-5 Work
5-7 Commute to gym, exercise
7-8 Return home, cook dinner
8-9:30 Personal time
So, you see, if I was fortunate enough to be able to function on 6 hours of sleep, I could devote another 3 hours of daily time (or 1095 hours per year) to work/personal endeavors.
Point being, you are the exception, not the norm.
Perhaps Mike. But trust me, I am nobody special; average intelligence, average height, average looks. The only thing I might be above average in is fear. I fear failure, and therefore I try to no end to succeed.
But your math is correct. One can do A LOT with 1,000 more hours a year of work!
You have 80 hours of energy a week and your answer is to use as much of it as you can to benefit a corporation that will make profits from you accepting slave wages for backbreaking work? What a good little conformist you are!
I’m seeing a lot of that here on this blog, too…conformists. Once upon a time, work hours used to be 15-25 per week and that was universally accepted to take into account people’s social obligations. Now, work hours have increased and retirement age is also increasing, all because wages stay stagnated. They have cleverly implemented a way to enslave all of us to maximize their profits. And your answer is to conform to this?
I dislike people such as yourself who claim that those of us who have less energy and lower attention spans are somehow “underneath” you if we can’t work 40 or more hours per week. Newsflash: our bodies aren’t meant for that. You’re just regurgitating what your elders and/or people in “authority” are dictating to you to be the mandatory standard of working. Here’s a tip: why don’t you use all this free time during your “early retirement” to actually start learning to think for yourself. You’re EXACTLY the type of person who would tattle on me in the workplace for slacking in productivity in my seventh hour, just to move your own greedy self up the corporate ladder.
Take up a hobby. Love your friends and family. Laugh. Basically…get a life! Optimize these experiences by utilizing your energy on these endeavours. THAT…is “getting ahead”
There’s no problem living a kick back lifestyle. The problem lies in living a kickback lifestyle and then complaining why you can’t get ahead (see title).
I’m like you and am just chilling now after I retired at 34. But in order to amass the six figure passive income stream, I first had to work very hard.
The point is to be congruent in effort and results.
https://www.financialsamurai.com/how-to-build-passive-income-for-financial-independence/
https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-first-million-might-be-the-easiest-how-to-become-a-millionaire-by-30/
Let’s enjoy living the good life!
I realize this is a USA post and I’m a Canadian so this is probably irrelevant but..
I’m 22 years old and living in Halifax ns. The biggest city on the east coast. I have a job. They told me I was being hired full time for the summer then hours would go down a bit for the winter. I never got over 30 hours at this job and have been here over a year. Why don’t I quit? Because I’ve also been trying to find a new job/additional part time job for the past year with no success. It’s easy to say yeah I can work 60 hours this week but try to find someone that wants to pay you that many hours is another story. They won’t hire you for management without a car to your name which is rediculous because only managers get 40 hours a week in this city (we are talking retail and small businesses) and you know as well as I do if you go looking for a car loan with less than 30 hours you will get laughed at. Yes it’s indeed possible to get under 40 hours a week and complain that you can’t get ahead. There are few job opportunities in the maritimes and I know a lot of people who can’t get ahead. This is not the ‘my house/car is bigger than the neighbors’ type of ahead but what I’m talking about is being able to pay rent without pawning away valuables or being able to eat without the help of a food bank. 70% of the people I know in this city work and are looking for better work while going to a food bank. How can one get ahead when there is no opportunity to get ahead?
That stinks you can’t get more than 40 hours a week of work. Perhaps get a couple jobs if you have the capacity?
Thanks for your perspective.
I’m really amazed at how many people don’t see the point of this post. I highly recommend a book by MJ DeMarco called Fastlane Millionaire where he talks exactly about these points. I think you’ll enjoy it, the author is about the same age as you Sam (34-35).
Too put things into perspective I’m 26, the youngest worker at my company. We work 40hr/wk 8:30-5:30 @ $70k. But here is the real kicker. Our “work” consists of getting into the office on time, hang around the coffee machine, chat, check emails, surf the web, facebook, reddit, news, whatever fancy us. We do this everyday until noon, then it’s lunch for 1-1.5 hrs, which entails more web surfing and sometimes a movie. Then when lunch is over, we need a warm up period before starting work to find “inspiration” on the web. Then, we start actual work around 2 or 3pm!
This is a start-up company BTW and would it be a shocker if I predict the company is heading towards a shit hole? Somehow management doesn’t see this because they are the ones setting examples for us.
What I find really interesting are the diverse views of my colleagues regarding work/life. About half of them with families and young kids complain how they don’t have much time at home to spend with their family. The other half who are fairly young without family enjoys life and party it up after work and on the weekends.
And then there’s me sitting there at the office reading financial blogs, watching all the episodes of shark tank, learning how to build a business, reading financial books, and they find me to be the boring one, haha. My goal is to use my energy and the fortunate position that I have at work to build up passive income so that I can retire before 35. Then I can spend the rest of my life with my family or partying or whatever I want.
Great posts Sam, people like you are what I aspire to be, keep up the great work.
-Ryan
Good insights man. I’m surprised folks are so lax at a startup.
But actually, I observed one guy at this startup company I am working for watch youtube videos for 5 hours. He purposefully sits outside alone away from the marketing team to do so.
take this into consideration i live in Michigan and work on a potato farm all year not seasonally i get about 55hrs a week minimum but i don’t get overtime its a straight wage right thru and it fucking sucks this weeks check 53hrs and about $309 dig that I WANT OVERTIME i have a child to feed!
I enjoy your blog and find it valuable, but wish it was more relatable to a majority of people who could benefit from your expertise. This seems to be catored to upper-class people who actually wouldnt need your advise, and boarders on classist, out of touch, and at some points offensive.
I think this article may be a little skewed for two reasons:
1) increased work in industrial society can be psychologically unhealthy. In the documentary “happy” one of the most sucessful developing countries featured is Japan, where working oneself to death is socially considered an honor. Living in a world that continually disreguards normal rest and recreation in support of “getting ahead” may actually be harming the social fabric of our cultures and the health of individuals. In other words, I think you should be able to work 25-40 hours a week, earn a living wage, and have hobbies and community projects on the side. Growing class inequity is making that kind of lifestyle increasingly challenging– primarily the assumption that “getting ahead” requires sleep and social deprivation compounds this degredation of society.
2) “It’s fun to interact online, go play golf with clients…” I’m surprised you didn’t see how histerical this comment might be to the average reader. Golfing with clients may be “work” for you, but is something a majority of the working population would see as laughably out of touch. If I counted my waking hours as part of my work week, then yes, from 5am to 11pm each day I am “on”, buying groceries to pack lunches, managing web projects, commuting to work, earning a living and managing my finances could encompass all of the work I do to progress in life (my “day job” is 40 hours). It’s much easier to tout a 70 hour work week when it includes net surfing and client play dates, meanwhile the average worker is being timed on their ten minute smoke break.
Working in entry level positions for typical corporate employers IS exhausting, depending on the management style, level of personal freedom and what is considered “work”. Personally, in my day job I often do manual labor outdoors for research projects, we work in 90 degree heat some days over extremely rough terraine. 5 hours out in the field with us you’d be ready to call it a day. ;) It sounds as if you’ve never had a real job working for anyone. Theres a difference between working hard for yourself (an 80 hour week of joy) and the sometimes soul-sucking existance of waiting for the weekend. The exhaustion your shocked about is probably directly coorilated to your level of schedule flexibility, freedom, and lack of supervision stress.
One things for sure we can probably both agree on– work burn out has nothing to do with hours worked, and everything to do with the kind of work you are doing.
I used to work for $4 an hour at McDonald’s and other more physically demanding jobs. I think b/c I worked those jobs that made me really appreciate working hard now and doing everything possible in order to NOT do these jobs for my life. (https://www.financialsamurai.com/worst-bad-jobs-that-can-make-you-rich-and-happy/)
As you say, life is about balance, and after working my butt off for 13 years, I retired from Corporate America in 2012. Working hard to gain financial freedom is WORTH IT! (https://www.financialsamurai.com/taking-a-leap-of-faith-retiring-on-own-terms/)
Nobody is going to save us when we no longer work. Not the government, not our employers. Those who think this post is “classist” are simply finding an excuse for not waking up before everyone else and leaving later than everyone else. Hard work takes no skill.
The follow up question I have for you is: Do you COMPLAIN why you can’t get ahead? It doesn’t sound like you are, so this post is irrelevant to you because you are doing your best and accepting what your best is giving you.
You have no idea what your talking about. My job would break your body in a day. And these past 4 weeks I’m working 70 hrs because things are in shambles. I haven’t seen my wife in her waking hours in almost 2 weeks. I haven’t done anything except try to grasp for sleep and eat what I can when I can. At this point my legs are so tired from lifting that its hard to keep my balance even when walking. Your work isn’t work. You want to talk about the majority so bad why don’t you go do some work on a roof as a tile carry boy. Or a post hole digger for a fencing company. You know what you’ve done. And I can tell you right now. If there is anything in your un working life that you remotely care about. Anything more than 60 hrs makes it impossible to do anything with it. America has brain washed people like you into production drones. Because you want more money? When your laying on your death bed what will you be thinking about? All that money you worked so hard to make that you can’t take with you? Or all the time you missed out spending time doing the things you love or being with those you love.
And you sleep 5 hrs a night. Lol. Wow. If only that could give me what I need to do the job I do. I make good money. Come to work with 5 hrs of sleep? Never. At some jobs you can get someone killed from the consequences of sleeping that little. Get out of here. This is obviously a job where you sit in a chair all day. If I had a desk job your point MIGHT be valid.
Oh my!!! I laughed so hard at your posts! Good insight! My mind did not even go there.. It is true that there are jobs where it would be unfair to those that you work with and/or serve, if you overworked yourself as I believe working his suggested number of hours would amount to.
However, I do think that he has a valid point… Even if your work involves hard manual labour, you can for example; turn a hobby you enjoy into a potential source of income; learn a new skill (dressmaking or languages [Adding German to my French and English! :p]) to increase your earning potential; or do less physically demanding work to supplement your income. Life is hard and, I am learning, shockingly unfair, but there is always something you can do to improve your situation and complaining and feeling sorry for yourself for even a second is not one of them. Fair point in that he is only looking at things from the perspective of those with “intellectual” jobs where you mostly use your mind and not your hands, but you could try and see past the red coming from behind your eyes and tweak his good suggestions so that they become more relevant. Also, he does not seem to take into account the value in those small breaks and sub-optimal utilization of time.. But we all have our priorities and this IS a blog about getting ahead and building wealth.
I spend nearly my entire weekends sleeping (’cause I enjoy lucid dreaming and the clarity sleep brings) and open my laptop the second I get in from outside and will remain on it until the early morning (heck- it’s past 2 am right now!)!! What a waste of time. I found the entry to be quite inspiring and the little kick I need to better utilize my time and enjoy being the lovely twenty year old goddess that I am, all while paving the way for a more financially prosperous future. n_n
Sounds like you need to change jobs AR. Gain skills, interest and determination in a more marketable occupation, the money will follow. That’s what the vast majority of people do and they get ahead as a result. Otherwise, we’d all be Wal-Mart greeters or leaf rakers demanding $50 an hour.
This is the most retarded advise and outlook I have ever seen. Working 40 hours a week is way way way to much time to be slaving away… especially if you work for other people. Wealth = how much time off and freedom you have. Telling people to just work more hours is STUPID! Whats the point? Why not earn much more per hour and work way less hours? That sounds like a better option. Who cares how much money you make at the end of the week if you have no time off to enjoy it. Who cares if you pull in 2k per week if you work 55 or 60 hours. Thats only 33$ and hour or so… WEAK SAUCE!!! NO ONE who is on their death bead says… “Dang if I only would have worked 4 more hours per day I could have made more money.” NO people say I wish I would have taken more risks, I wish I would have WORKED LESS, I wish I would have followed my passion, etc. If your passion is to work. COOL do it. But for the rest of us who have other passions and talents working 40 plus hours a week is just a waste of time and really does not put us ahead in any way.
The good thing about my advice being the worst advice and outlook you’ve ever seen is that there’s only UPSIDE for you then!
You missed a qualifier in this post: people who complain why they can’t get ahead while working less than 40 hours a week.
Have a read of this post and get pumped! Save More, Make More, Grow Your Net Worth Now!
Do you work for $5 an hour? MI min wage is $8/hour.
Here in Utah it’s $7.25 an hour
Just butting in here, In the UK it is £6.30 an hour, fortunately I earn a little more but my daughter (aged 22) earns minimum wage.
I think it works out at around $9?
Take taxes and ssi from that $8 an hour and see what you’re left with; about $5.
At $8/hr, you will pay FICA that reduces you to $7.50 but not only will you not pay federal income taxes, you very likely will qualify for EITC. Yes, I realize some may be witheld but you get it back at the end of the year.
The only way to make more money is to convince people to work for you so that you can use their man hours towards your paycheck. With that said, if you are constantly working 70-80 hours a week and not starting a business, than you’re not “getting ahead” at all; rather, you’re just fighting to sustain your lifestyle. Even CEOs that are getting paid a million dollars a year to run major corporations never see the kinds of profits that the majority share holders of a company are seeing and I guarantee you not all shareholders are working over 40 hours a week. In fact I bet a lot of people who are majority shareholders aren’t even working at all. I didn’t really like your article because it had a real snarky work harder not smarter attitude. I’m not interested in working long hours in life because I don’t enjoy working, but I sure hope I find some brainwashed motivated people like you to invest in for the future.
Spoken like a true socialist! If you only knew what you were talking about. BTW: the best way to lose a fortune is to go into business thinking you’re going to live off other people’s hard work. That’s a recipe for failure. And when it comes to creating successful businesses there are far more failures than successes, they are just not talked about as much.
Finally someone said what I was thinking the entire time; one should work smarter. (I will leave out the “harder” part of the adage, because that can be interpreted in too many ways). I attempted to work for my father when I was 19 or 20, and have had other laborious jobs before choosing a profession that required serious graduate and post graduate education, but which allows me to be self employed and make an exceptionally high hourly wage. What prompted my development was that more physically demanding jobs were so intolerable I quit. Voluntary unemployment allowed me time to explore possibilities and make a new start. People who work in construction or nursing, for example, are simply so exhausted at the end of the day that they can’t expend more energy exploring other career avenues. Unfortunately, they’re stuck…..making money for other people as Johnny pointed out. Also, many of the hours professionals spend on the internet, having business lunches and golfing with clients, wouldn’t be considered “work” AT ALL by laborers.
Well said!! :)
Sorry, my `well said` comment was in reply to johnny but, came out below FP :P
You should work harder AND smarter. It’s how I went from $7/hr to $100/hr in less than 15 years.
While I agree that people who take 90 minute coffee breaks have no room to complain that they aren’t getting promoted, I do think that there is a tendency to reward people who are busy rather than people who are efficient. When I start a job, I usually take the first year to examine processes, figure out the most efficient way to do them, and implement those efficiencies. This sometimes takes a little bit of computer programming, some figuring out how to use the Microsoft Office Suite more effectively, and perhaps even changing a few office policies. Invariably, these changes cut anywhere from 2-4 hours of wasted time out of my day.
Now compare what I do to my co-workers. Many of them can barely open a spreadsheet, much less use one. When looking for duplicates on two separate spreadsheets, they will print out both and go through them laboriously line-by-line, rather than running a simple query in Access. They don’t know what a Mail Merge is, they think that learning to program is a waste of their time, and when it comes to office policies, they’d rather die than change the way things are. As a result, they work 50-60 hours a week in order to get everything done.
Now here’s the rub. I have seen people like my co-workers, who make less efficient use of their time, get rewarded with overtime and promotions time and again. People like me, who are more efficient and innovative, get rewarded with laborious, boring shit jobs that need to get done, but nobody else has time to do. That’s because busyness in our culture is equated with ambition whereas efficiency is overlooked and often equated with laziness.
Now you may think that this is just hearsay and that my co-workers are probably still more productive than I am simply because they’re working longer hours. However, study after study has shown that people who work 60 hour weeks are no more productive than people who work 40 hours per week. In fact, entrepreneurs, like Henry Ford, and even whole countries, like Germany, have demonstrated over and over again that paying people more to work less hours more efficiently do far better than their competitors who work people harder for less pay but more overtime.
Now granted, there are times when people are more productive when working long hours. For example, in short sprints to meet a particular deadline, people can be more productive working 60 hour weeks. Also, people who are socially awkward and have the laser-like focus of a high functioning autistic can work long hours while forgetting to do things like eat and sleep. (This is one of the reasons the tech industry took off.) However, these are the exceptions, not the norm. For the rest of us, working 60 hours per week leaves us more stressed out, less fulfilled, less innovative, and more sleep deprived. There’s also the environmental impact, since people who have less time tend to drive more and take advantage of high energy consuming conveniences.
You think that working long hours is a sign of ambition. I, however, think that it could just as easily be a sign that you aren’t using your time as efficiently and as effectively as you could. You might take objection to that, but then again, you’re the one that’s telling me working 40 hours a week is a sign of laziness and not efficiency.
Those are some good points about business and efficiency.
However, I would encourage people to be busy and efficient. That’s how a lot of people really get aheads. It’s a double win.
I like this comment a lot. Time is give to us all and our efficiency make a big difference because that changes the multiplier in our output.
Time x productive efficiency = work performed
If you produce more than others, ask for a raise and back it up with results…don’t let others ride you. However, remember who the boss is and if all they’ll pay is x amount…you need to decide if you want to stay or go where its more beneficial for you.
the other factor that affect us all is out of our control…and that is the opportunity others extend to us. We can work towards learning more, being more likeable, and even the most loyal…but we all answer to someone else in life (or sometimes several others)…and if they want to keep us down…we sometimes suffer for that. Remember that you can choose what to do but you must live with the consequences.
Another great post Sam! It is really no mystery why some are successful.
Hey Sam I’m enjoying my thursday going threw your blog and this one in particular stood out because I do agree that americans are fat, selfish, stupid, lazy and just general garbage of the world but I don’t blame the Individual because our society is fa ricated to be this way, this is what happens when you put apes in clothes and give them ray guns and computers. Anyhow my point I wanted to make is that I feel your blogs are slightly biased towards the more progressive end of the spectrum and you kind of leave out the people who work in trades and labor industry, where a 40-50 hour week for a healthy 21 year old is a lot to try and manage along with a fullfilling personal life. but even still the way the world is. why would you want to work more than 50 hours a week? Where I come from we make the most of what we have and enjoying life is more important than money or social status. Unless some folks are just so brainwashed to the point that they need that social status to validate there own Self worth.
Gary, welcome to my site.
I’m obviously going to have my biases, b/c I’m sharing how I see the world. However, if you want to get rich or get promoted faster, then I don’t think a 40 hour week is going to cut it when many people are working much more.
If you want a more “fulfilling personal life” which does not include money or career, then of course try and relax as much as possible and do something else. If career and money is important, then spend some more time working on your X factor after work.
Bottom line: Work 40 hours a week or less, but never complain why you can’t get ahead.
I work well over 40 hrs a week.Lol I probally could not survive on such a check.I work harder and longer and am a single father.I have 3 x the responsibility as co workers. Everyone at my work knows I am the hardest worker there. I have been past over 3 times now for same promotion.I help those promoted keep face.I cant move to take another job because of I share legal custody. I work in aviation also so my stress levels are insane. Lol I bet if you missed something or were not completely focused on work that people could not die and you imprisoned for manslaughter.Daily stress how would you fare?look it up most stressful job in world with lowest pay!
klf: Why in the world would you choose that occupation?
Great points you have here FS.
I’m curious if you have some advice for me. I’m a designer working at a startup earning ~75% of market value. The job has decent work/life balance, I only work 40-50 hours a week. This means I have a few hours a day I could spend on another project. I realize that for me working is a way to make money. But more than that, I want to make money doing something meaningful and something that I’m good at. Fortunately, I have all of these things. What I don’t have is financial independence. Not even close. I have to budget carefully and pay attention to my student loan payments (just finished grad school 2 years ago before moving to SV).
I committed to an under-paying but rewarding startup job with high risk but a good culture. So I’ll be there for at least a year. But what I can do is work on the nights and weekends. Or mornings. I am at a crossroads as to what I can do with that time and I’m really lost about what I should do. Do you have any advice?
I understand that the biggest stressor I have, and have had since graduating undergrad is money. Money or lack of it has always made me make decisions I don’t want to make, but it leaves me without choice. I want to be debt free and with the freedom and options to go for what I really want to do, what I’m really interested in, not just the limited options I have right now in front of me. I want to get out of the “worker” mindset and into that of the creator. I feel as a naturally creative person I can easily create new ideas, but I have little practical application in turning these into money.
Pardon me just jumping in here FS.
L: Being committed to just one year isn’t really much of a commitment, can’t imagine you could expect much from your employer for your “sweat equity.” What you describe though sounds like a reasonable deal if you are just 75% under market UNLESS it is in a field that is in demand, naturally (e.g., engineering, math, medical sciences, etc.). Not clear what kind of “designer” you are.
L: You also touch upon a real issue people have today and why I am replying. A couple generations ago people went to school and chose vocations to earn the best living they could and achieve financial independence, rarely to go out and do “what they want to do.” It’s just life, most of what we perceive (at a young age) as the really fun, rewarding jobs and the things we want to do are not in demand, create little value and the jobs are over subscribed. I wanted to be an artist and then a professional athlete early on; it wasn’t realistic, I simply do not have the very rare talent to make a living at it. Our economy functions based on demand for the things people most want, and sadly it’s not art or watching some above average athlete (the market does not reward this with money). Perhaps you need to assess your abilities and the marketplace, then choose a career that you can realistically achieve financial independence. There’s nothing wrong with that, in fact, it is what we are all obligated to do (i.e., maintain our own financial independence). You can also find personal reward in it as well, it’s a state of mind. Then go out and work on your passion as much as you can, it just may not be an option to make a good living at it.
8 hours work, 8 hours recreation or family life, 8 hours sleep.
The only reason you think you have to work 40+ hours per week to get ahead is because in America you have an extremely low minimum wage along with a very low standard of living.
Frankly, after ten hours in the office, no one is much good for anything no matter how many hours they stay back “working”.
Of course people should be paid to work overtime, if they agree to work the overtime in the first place.
Wow Marianne, what world are you living in? The vast majority of people working well over 40 hours per week are earning nowhere near the minimum wage, far above it. I don’t know any professional that doesn’t work more than 40 hours and on the contrary, they are well capable of going beyond 10 hours a day. It’s just choices.
The entire minimum wage debate is a canard, it simply means those earning at a hiked minimum wage do it at the expense of others who lost their job – there are far better ways to help the poor than through a minimum wage, it is simple economics. To postulate that “every” job must have a wage to support a family is ridiculous. And you really should try to refrain from blaming America and try to get your facts straight – we have when considering income and purchasing parity (not GDP per capita as many like to taught).
For example, Norway is considered to have one of in not the highest standard of living in the world (save perhaps Lichtenstein or Kuwait) on a GDP per capita basis, but when considering cost of living (actual purchasing parity) it is below the US. Again, it is simple economics, fewer people work as much in Norway, those who do have to support those who don’t (in that country) which results in much higher taxes and prices comparatively speaking. There is a reason why people flock to the US to chase the American dream and not to Norway, as an example.
after “GDP per capita as many like to taught)” add: one of the highest standards of living in the world.
Sam,
You have a lot of good content on your site but this post was just terrible. You are very out of touch with reality and the average American. If folks working low end jobs are needed to work more than 40 hours a week then they should be paid at 1.5x. Every hour spent working overtime is one hour less they get to spend raising their children.
It’s time to grow up Sam and put out a product that people can relate to. The above post was a classless joke that wouldn’t allow anyone to “get ahead”.
Sadie, why do you think this post is about classes, and not about work ethic and economic rationality?
Also curious why I should start producing a product people can relate to? Are you saying that I owe people, and that I don’t have the right to say what I want who come to my site?
If so, it’s important to realize that entitlement is a wealth and society killer. Nobody owes anybody except for loved ones anything. It takes me HOURS and hours to write, edit，and publish content here. I don’t charge a thing in case you wanted your money back.
If you are frustrated with your current situation, it doesn’t help you to call people a “joke” and “classless.” You’re the only one who can change. As someone who grew up in third world cohntries and worked in India and China, I can assure you change is possible. There is more poverty outside of America than you can ever imagine if you’ve never been.
Well said FS.
Your posts are entirely about ethic and rational perspectives. I owned businesses in India and the Philippines. The very poorest in America are worlds ahead of the world’s poor.
It is truly amazing how so many feel that their station in life is a result of externalities or it was done to them.
One minor point, by inference Sadie is demanding that those with children get paid more than those without. Interesting perspective on what is “fair”.
Hi Sam,
I totally hear what you are saying but you are kind of off base. Before I respond, here’s more about me; I’m also a third worlder working in the US and in the 10% of wage earners in the entire country. The answer is NEVER more hours as you will always reach some kind of limit with that equation; and perhaps burnout. The best things to do is work smarter, NOT harder. You’re literally telling people with families and numerous other responsibilities to neglect their families and put in more hours to make someone else rich. The answer again, is more education (with something that will pay you; not philosophy), working harder; not smarter and investing your money. The ideology you are adopting is very popular to ones found in some foreign countries, so I know where it’s coming from; but it’s NOT sustainable by any means. Is the answer for someone making $15/hr to put in 60-70 hours a week on a consistent basis? Will this actually make them more successful, or just now more dependent on a paycheck for 70 hours.
I forgot to add, what if you are salaried like me? Working more hours will put ZERO extra money in my pockets. You may counter and say, the fact that I put in more hours, I may get me a promotion with more money; well that’s wishing on a star, and quite a non tangible one at that. Or maybe you think I should start a second gig? But wait, I did, I started my own company in the middle of last year. There is just so much time and energy you can spend working. Also for example, no one works 8 hours a day anyway. You spend an hour in the morning getting ready for work, then the commute; then the commute home. It’s more like 10 hours for an 8 hour day. Let’s say you sleep 8..you have 6 hours left to cook, and do whatever else…does this REALLY work? Lord forbid you have some errands to run that day…. again I hear what you are saying but it’s just totally the wrong advice. My old boss comes from this mentality (Japan) and that’s why I left my last company. He has no problem working 15 hours a day, living in his parents basement, and drinking everyday. But rememberrrr….he is salaried too…working those extra hours means NO extra money for him.
What about working more hours at a second job, or a side hustle?
Is everyone here working a job that doesn’t pay minimum wage? I wish I could work more than 40 hours a week, but unfortunately the only job I managed to get at the moment will not give me more hours even though I have expressed that I want them. I want to save money, get a car, pay for college, while going to college, and I have had no help from anyone. I live on my own, and don’t make enough money to have anything extra after bills. I get paid minimum wage, but taxes take about 10 hours of my work pay a week. I don’t really think it is unreasonable to complain? I constant put in applications, resumes, and look for a job walking everywhere because I do not have a car. Golly Gee I wish I could choose where I get a job, how much I make, and how much I work. How dare we peasants complain about not getting ahead. I can understand some people being lazy, but how much work does one have to do? Does everyone have to work so much that they have no time for loved ones or to be productive other than acting like a robot at a dead end job.
Yeah, I had to kill myself (deep depression, nihilism, derealization, yet held down a job/gained ground for years).
If you want things to get easier, you can (a) wait for them to (they might actually start getting easier as more technology emerges) (b) do what I did and be bleeding internally on an emotional level for several solid years. It can pay off if you have a halfway decent plan, which I did. The world where pain doesn’t exist is coming, but it isn’t here yet.
Self teach, if you can. Internet is good. Fewer and fewer businesses care if you have a degree. Be smart, be competent, have good attitude, have integrity. I got my first two career type jobs with no degree, the first of which I didn’t even have a HS diploma (I was 15 though at the time).
I want to point out, for those who have a good attitude and are willing to work, most jobs are moving away from requiring formal education… I got my first two “career” type jobs with no degree, the first without a high school diploma in fact (I was a freshman in high school when I got it) But even in recent years, I’ve had superiors making more than me with no degree. Basically, have a good attitude, know your shi*, be willing to learn and grow (and not stagnate) and you should be able to make what I am making. The internet can teach you to do anything, if you can squeeze in the time to learn. Bits a day are all it takes, but my job is to always be learning (never the exact same skillset for long) so that can be pretty tiring. Employers are going to value that most though… are you willing to have your skillset constantly be shifting over time? The work to stay dynamic in your skillset is the hardest part. I’ll give it away, I am a software engineer… right now there are more jobs than workers for my (one active) skillset, and it pays 90k a year on average (I’m still shy of that atm just yet). Check out codecademy.com if you want the internet to teach you the skills to make 90k a year (for free).
So, more directly targeting your questions to the reader, I’m a 26 year old in great physical shape (martial artist in multiple styles) and my whole body hurts after 40 hours in a cubicle.
I’m an SPSer though (see: https://hsperson.com) with a 183 IQ. I would love to work 24 hours a week, after that it becomes exhausting.
To your question… if you enjoy 80 hours of work a week, you are not one of my species (we are still approximately the same species overall) I never experience boredom (literally, I have yet to encounter it) I just start reading or learning new skills automatically when I run out of things to do (I’m an autodidact, I self teach faster than a teacher can teach me) Being under someone else’s authority though, is about the worst thing ever. I’d take a 50% pay cut if it meant my supervisor didn’t care (at all). I tend to want to do excessively creative, impractical or mad-sciencey things in the work place and out, and I suspect I’d be richer by now if I had never signed up for a day job in the first place.
I have 100,000 hours of productive things I wish I could be working on that my day job is keeping me from. Several careers I’d rather have that I am working toward (many that are more like hobbies, but some could pay seven figures, in extreme cases)
Incidentally there is an article on LinkedIn going around that suggests that by 2050, the unemployment rate will be 90%, but by then, having a job won’t matter (machines will even do the thinking jobs, and minimum wage will be a living wage because nothing will cost very much by then) By that point, supporting the lower class via socialism will actually be viable / sustainable (I think some agricultural innovations and probably revolutions will be necessary (like why are we still burning perfectly good crops to make food more expensive again? My home state is literally starving)) I am actually planning to try my hand in robotics and agriculture in the next few years, if I get the chance, which by my current calculations, I will.
But the days of not needing a job (for real) are closer than you think… just a few more decades. To me, the best thing anyone can do, if possible, is just reach a little further inside yourself than the day before (something I am still cultivating in myself) increase your capacity to give or work or learn over what it used to be. One day it will be the reason you made it through whatever hell seemed like it was going to kill you. I definitely believed I was going to fail at life for most of mine, it’s the reason I am constantly cramming more knowledge and skillsets into my whatchema-thingie.
Lastly, the millenial generation is being projected to be a great entrepreneurial generation, something like 70% of the workforce could wind up being successful entrepreneurs. Studies link my generation (born 1982-199x) as being better managers (better, more aggressive company growth) than previous generations anyway… significantly greater growth when a company has millenials in charge than doesn’t. That being said, it’s being projected that the great corporations could dissolve entirely, and in theory, a nation with 100,000 small-to-mid size but healthy companies could be a lot healthier for the world at large than one with 5,000 larger ones.
Embrace the changes. Things are going to get easier for those who can’t, and harder for those who can. At some point, the only skillset that will matter will be the able to continuously change. And if you can’t, so be it. You’re still okay.
Thanks Kevin. I think you’ll enjoy this post to your point:
https://www.financialsamurai.com/do-you-make-as-much-as-a-union-worker-electrician/
“I’m an SPSer though with a 183 IQ. I would love to work 24 hours a week, after that it becomes exhausting.”
Hahahahahahah “183 IQ” yet poor and lazy as f*. Gotta love liars on the internet.
Don’t forget, he’s a “martial artist in multiple styles” too!
I want to point out, for those who have a good attitude and are willing to work, most jobs are moving away from requiring formal education… I got my first two “career” type jobs with no degree, the first without a high school diploma in fact (I was a freshman in high school when I got it) But even in recent years, I’ve had superiors making more than me with no degree. Basically, have a good attitude, know your shi*, be willing to learn and grow (and not stagnate) and you should be able to make what I am making. The internet can teach you to do anything, if you can squeeze in the time to learn. Bits a day are all it takes, but my job is to always be learning (never the exact same skillset for long) so that can be pretty tiring. Employers are going to value that most though… are you willing to have your skillset constantly be shifting over time? The work to stay dynamic in your skillset is the hardest part. I’ll give it away, I am a software engineer… right now there are more jobs than workers for my (one active) skillset, and it pays 90k a year on average (I’m still shy of that atm just yet). Check out codecademy.com if you want the internet to teach you the skills to make 90k a year (for free). This sounds like an ad, so if you’re suspicious, do your own internet research for what websites will teach you to code for free (there are a handful, and any choice is fine).
I disagree with the idea that you must work 60+ hours per week to be successful. Now, I am a 30 year old female engineer with a few years of experience in industry, and I am finishing up a PhD this year. I take pride in my work, and in my work ethic. I have logged over 90 hours in my lab in the past 9 days, while approaching a deadline. I also worked as a waitress for 6 1/2 years while I was studying, and I have zero debt. And I am frustrated with how difficult it is to find a good job after grad school, even with prior work experience as an engineer, but that’s a separate issue.
I have been looking for a place to make this argument. I don’t want to work 60-70 hour weeks forever in order to move forward in a career, and I don’t think I should have to. I’m 30, in a stable relationship and financially stable, and I want to have a couple of kids in the next few years. I want to continue contributing to society, and I want to keep moving forward with my career. I want to reap the benefits from this advanced study, and I want to repay society for providing me with this education. And I want to be able to afford to give my kids what I want them to have. But they will require a lot of my time. I don’t want to miss their childhoods. That is too important. I want to breastfeed, I want to read to them most evenings, and I want to be there for the little league games. There is no way I can keep up these hours when I have to add ~4~5 more hours of responsibility to every day. I should not lose credit for the work I’ve done to date, and my average pay per hour should not go down. I don’t expect to be paid the same for doing less work once I’m a parent. I do expect to do the same, or better, quality work – just less of it. I should have the option of working 2/3 the hours (40 hours instead of 60) for half the pay plus benefits, so my cost to the company per hour of work remains about the same. And I should maintain the same status in the company, remain eligible for promotions (though they may take longer to attain), stay in my professional network, and still be respected by my peers – even though I’m working fewer hours. That 40 hour week should be enough to support myself and my kids – not get rich – but it should be enough.
Then, as my kids grow older and require less of my time, I should be able to step right back onto the corporate ladder, right where I left off. I should not have to restart or reinvent myself because I had other commitments that prevented me from working 60+ hours for a few years. This is not the only life circumstance that could take time away from work. But it is the circumstance of half of the population – for every mother – and every one of us has a mother. Maybe the lady on the bus was tired because she had to leave work and put in 3 or 4 or 5 more hours of work into caring for her child.
Heather, unfortunately, you don’t make the rules. The “I should be able to” is an empty statement. The marketplace for labor makes the rules. You will have to adjust your expectations, nothing wrong with that. You can not work at all, as many women do when they have children. It’s every bit as honorable, perhaps more, than a career. But you can’t expect to have everything according to your own model of the world.
That is a completely unfair and chauvinist assessment. The statement “I should be able to” is about my right to fair access to the free market, not about me making my own rules. The marketplace for labor (i.e. customer) absolutely makes the rules, but the market does not make this all-or-nothing sixty hour rule, corporate leaders do. It is a carry over from an earlier male dominated workplace society. The free market would allow me to work as little or (almost) as much as I want, and it would pay me according to my output, because I have developed highly specialized and highly marketable skills. I said that if I could reduce my hours, I would accept a lower salary, but not less pay per hour of work. By “I should be able to”, I mean it is my right to make that choice on the balance between my two major contributions to society – my work and my children. And it is unfair for business leaders to set rules that are different from the market requirements, just for their own convenience and to push women out. If I had the choice to reduce my hours for a few years, and I was not promoted in that time period, that would be fair; it would not be fair if my status in the company was at all reduced as a result. It is the same for my hourly pay (including benefits). I have worked very smart and very hard to this point, and I have proved that I am willing to do so. Why should I be forced to do all or nothing – 60+ hours, or zero and throw away my entire investment forever? The bigger issue is that today’s corporate culture will not allow me to reduce my hours while my children are young, but stay current in my field and in my professional network, and then continue on the same path when they no longer require so much of my time. Corporations require all or nothing, and if I choose nothing, then I have to throw away this entire huge investment in developing marketable skills, because they will not allow me jump back in where I left off after a few years. That is a huge waste for me, and it is an even bigger waste for society, and there are so many many women in similar situations. It is the corporate culture that chooses such inefficiency. The free market is losing out on substantial productivity and innovation by forcing me and so many other women to choose – all or nothing.
I want to continue making my own contribution to society through my work, and I want to set that example for my children. For me, that is the honorable thing to do.
Wow, you’re a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. Look who’s the chauvinist with the arguably blanket bigoted statements like “male dominated workplace society.” Don’t throw that meme at me, you think it inoculates you from criticism for your sorrow? There was nothing like that in my comment, you should be ashamed. Just as a point of reference, I am married to a well educated technology professional who would never dream of saying that.
Yes, there is unfounded bias out there, but that does not mean IN THE REAL WORLD that women are in no way different from men in the workforce, particularly when young children are involved. Common sense dictates it is flatly impossible to be the best employee AND be the best mother. It is another one of life’s tradeoffs. Be proud of it that you have the freedom and opportunity to make that tradeoff! Some people are not able to have children or choose not to, so you have the audacity to expect you step in front of them in line or are entitled to something they are not.
You really must better understand economics and markets as well. There certainly is no monopsony or even oligopsony for your services. You are simply competing with others who are willing to do more than you are willing. And willingness to put in long hours or endure hardships (e.g., travel, special assignments, etc.) are perfect examples of how the best and most valuable employees separate themselves. There is nothing right or wrong with that either way, it’s a choice. That’s what happens when you grow up and become an adult in the work force. Imagine a pro athlete saying, “gosh, I shouldn’t have to put in 60+ hours a week to be at the top of my game”, well good luck with that.
So you think “business leaders” somehow conspire “and set the rules”? Listen to yourself. Those same “leaders” are not much different than you, they are almost entirely professional and educated employees like you. They’re in the same boat. And you may be one of them some day.
And what’s this “making my own contribution to society through my work” comment about? So your work is something special relative to others who work hard too and are compensated likewise?
Use your head.
“That’s what happens when you grow up and become an adult in the work force.”
I understand the argument you and the original article are making, but I think part of the reason why some people are getting defensive is because of comments like the above. Out of one corner of your mouth you’re saying “If you want to make a lot of money, then put a lot of hours in. If you don’t, then have a nice life and enjoy yourself,” but then out the other corner you’re implying that working less than 40 hours means you’re somehow a child, immature, lazy, etc. There’s always this distinctly condescending tone that just irritates people, especially since it fails to consider alternative lifestyles (single mothers, people caring for the disabled, etc.) or professions that are simply too exhausting (dangerously so) to work over 40 hours. Personally, I don’t want a nurse that’s been working six 12 hour shifts in a row giving me my meds in the hospital. I’d like to live, thanks.
Just pointing out that your argument and others like them ignore certain points that are worth considering. That’s why you’re getting these shitty reactions from people, instead of actually listening to (or reading in this case) what you have to say.
Great perspective. Thank you for sharing.
I do believe everybody has a chance to get ahead, and not everybody is maximizing all they can to do so. But not everybody has the same magnitude of chance.
How is chauvenist? While you are complaining about worknig 60 hour weeks for a few years, what about the male or career oriented woman that is willing to do it for 40+? Why should you, as someone who only works 40hrs/week, move up as fast and get paid as much as someone who continues to work 60hrs/wk?
Magus, exactly! Not to hijack FS’ blog, I’m sure he loves it when people do this, but it’s enraging how truly entitled people feel they are.
How is it that because you make certain life choices, however important you think they may be, others have to compensate you for that when those choices have a materially negative impact on your earnings AND financial obligations. Do people really think they can have children or engage in other socially accepted endeavors and NOT have it impact their earning potential? Who thinks like that. Children are an enormous burden and responsibility and it’s not up to others to accept it on your behalf (there is no “greater society” or “village” to do it, just individuals who collectively wind up picking up the tab).
Yes, it may seem a bit harsh, but it’s simple reality, you can’t change it.
As an aside: everywhere you see people dissatisfied with things that can’t be changed and they expect government to somehow magically step in and change it.
Magus you are looking at hours worked as the only criteria. In regards to why should someone who works 40/hrs move up as fast or get paid more as someone who works 60/hrs per week its not simply hours worked. If the person who works 40 hrs a week is 1.5 times as effective as the person working 60 hrs per week then he completes the same number of tasks as the person working 60. If he is twice as effective he completes more tasks. It’s not as simple as just hours worked.
Hey “Fermi”, I get what you’re saying, but shrugging your shoulders and saying “the marketplace defines everything” is a cop-out. For much of human history, the marketplace said the slave labour was an acceptable way to build things. Or that a ten year old kid should work 12 hour days in a factory or starve to death.
The marketplace does not equal morality. Attitudes, laws, and changes in production shift over time. The marketplace is *us* and if enough of us want to see change, change will come.
Hey “Jason”, don’t accuse me of shrugging my shoulders and copping out. Who do you think you’re talking to? The market place is a place of person freedom, unless encumbered by some outside force. To say it is “us” and by your definition we can deny people their right to engage in transactions under their own free will is to say we can just deny people any of their other freedoms and liberties (presumably by some majority “attitude” as you call it). You are out of your mind. Wise up. And there is nothing about a free market that implies any lack of morality or law, don’t be stupid. Trading slaves is not a failure of a free market, it is a failure of morality and law. Good god, do you even think before you write. And you should also do a little work on your facts about hours worked, child labor and starvation. You are simply and grossly attempting to confound and conflate… very sophomoric.
Here is some advice; if you don’t want to work more than 40 hours….don’t. I don’t. Find something, make it work. Leave at or before 5:00. Our work weeks should not be getting longer with advancements in technology. 20-30 years ago these companies existed WITHOUT computers. If you were longer than you want, you are at the wrong place.
I wake up at 4 am and get to work by 4:45 and work until 6:00pm with a half hour “lunch” break at 8 am. I am also a full time student taking 16 credits and working a second 20 hour job on the weekends. However, I am not getting ahead. Even with all of the hours I get paid near minimum wage and after taxes and insurance I am still living a good 15% below the poverty line. On top of this I support a disabled person and have to pay off school debts. Each week I put in roughly 82 hours plus put in 20-30 hours for school depending on the week. Anyone who calls golfing or working at McDonalds for 4$ as work are clearly the lazy ones. You don’t get ahead by putting in obscene numbers of hours into a senseless job, you get ahead by making connections and taking advantage of opportunities. I can work triple digit hours for the rest of my life and never get anywhere or I can have my well connected father pull some strings and get me a job sitting on my ass in an office for $35 an hour. I for example make very few connections at my job because surprise surprise I’m actually working. Not the milling about the water cooler and alt tabbing to play candy crush working but stacking pallets and carrying logs working. Most people that are poor are not poor because they don’t work over forty hours. We are poor because we work shit jobs that we are forced into because of our situations. I am never going to get an opportunity to get ahead by making a connection with some guy who has a better position for me working the tail end of a wood mill and my hundred hour work weeks ensure I sure as hell wont have any time for golf. In fact if this were a normal work week I wouldn’t even be able to be on here to post this because I would be working. However, I got injured at my job because I am overworked so I get a nice little unpaid vacation so I can see how out of touch with the world some people are. The problem isn’t not working enough hours, the problem is enormous wage gaps between positions. My father earns in a single bonus more than I do in 5 years and he sits at home with his family watching netflix most days. The trick isn’t to work more hours its to know the right people.
You are working in the wrong place and I’m not even sure how those #s work out. Hell, we pay cashiers over $9/hr, are considered a low paying company, and we are primarily in the suburbs in the Southeast where wages are cheapest! Furthermore, any cashier worth *anything* is promoted to an assistant office manager within a year making $11-15/hr. Any officer assistant manager worth *anything* is promoted to a office manager making $40kish a year within 2 years of that. After that, it gets a little bit tougher but believe it or not there are grocery store managers with no college degree that make 200k/year.
Exactly Magus, I don’t think it is a real or at least sincere/honest post.
Work, work, work, know the right people and earn, earn, earn for wads of money…..
This is all well and good if that is the only focus in life but, reality for most is much more than expensive cars, homes and clothing etc and of course, there is a very big world out there that does not revolve around the business sector.
The world at ground level really is a million miles from the world of golf, marketing, tailored suits and such
I work in the field of learning disabilities, as a one to one carer of 35 hours a week for an extremely difficult young individual. (hours allocated to job description and overtime is not included)
This individual has excessive physical and mental destructive mannerisms with an additional unnatural behaviourism towards the female species..
All this is categorized as ‘Learning Disabled’ giving it such a simple description and the world knows nothing of the skills needed to work with any such individual.
To say my job is difficult is understating the matter considerably, by the end of the 7 hour shift I am both physically and emotionally drained.. At times I have even come home and burst into tears due to the excessively difficult day I have endured, I am fit to drop but, relaxation is, I am sure you will respect, difficult when emotionally charged.
To give up and walk away would leave an already fragile and vulnerable individual open to a breakdown, as has done each time a past one to one carer has upped and left due to the severity of behaviours… His behaviours worsen every rejection. I am to date the longest one to one carer he has had (coming up to 18 months)
I have psychological academic skills which makes me a little (only a little) more considerate of his mental dysfunctions and behaviours (I say a little, because it is only natural to find public sexual tendencies and habitual destructiveness difficult to bear).
Success to me is not about my pay packet (seriously, you dont do a job like mine for the income as it is just above minimum wage which is as ludicrous as it is insulting)
Success in my mind is that of not giving up on those who rely on you.
My contribution to society is like the many who do similar to my work, it is enormous despite not noticed by society itself, nor is it acknowledged by those who decide how much my efforts are worth to pay.
I am not moaning per se, however sometimes I think the business mind forgets the world at ground level and reading your post I believe you to have no real understanding of life outside of your bubble.
Not having a go at you, just hoping to remind you the world is not run on business alone, many occupations out there, that the business mind views as ‘little people’ are good hard working individuals who in effect keep the world moving daily so are therefore successful in their own right.
That’s wonderful Karma, you have found what really satisfies you and rewards you in your work. Congratulations and thanks for all you do! Also, I don’t think people on this post believe the world revolves around business. I think the central point is that choices in life matters. And career choices matter in terms of income. As you have pointed out, there are often significantly greater rewards from one’s career than just what it pays.
You know what I don’t understand, as a student still, waiting to enter the workforce: why on earth would I want to work more than 40 hours a week when life is so short and I want to do so many things (hobbies is one of them, time with family and friends)? I mean I would understand if it would be an important cause that would make humanity prosper in a great way. That would make sense to me. But waiting till your retired to do things you love: that’s actually sad to me. If the workload is so big, why don’t they hire more people and share responsability or take shifts ? I bet there are dozen who are looking for a job. I guess if you are money driven, then working 90 hours a week would benefit you. I, instead, think my time is more important, cause hey, we aren’t here forever and I plan to be happy, and I plan that my family would be happy too. I plan to have money enough to sustain me. I don’t want to be rich and have some huge baroque decorated house to show for or a brand new Ferrari. Maybe when children will come, my perspective will shift, and money-making will become more important to me. But overall, I think time is more important than money.
Exactly. Enjoy life and don’t worry about the money and hard work. Life is good!
That’s great. Although it’s not really fair to characterize those who work many more than 40 hours in their career as “money driven.” I have know many, many people who work like FS describes, they do it because they love it, not because they are chasing the dollar. It’s a bit like saying professional athletes do it for the money. People I have met that don’t like their job or career can never seem to muster up the effort to work hard. And when you work more you do in fact benefit society as a whole, not the other way around. It is simple economics. Imagine what our economy would like if the “standard” wasn’t 40 hours, but something like 4 hours. We’d be back to living in caves.
Yes, I get you. I guess that if you like what you do, working more hours isn’t such a big deal. I mean, some say that what they are doing are their life. I haven’t experienced that yet. Sorry for generalizing – some people are money driven, and that’s not such a bad thing if that’s what you want and plan to do something meaningfull with it.
Well, I guess “meaningful” is in the eyes of the beholder. If they wanted to take the money and burn it, it’s up to them, they earned it, it’s their property.
:))) right.
Actually, they can’t burn it. :P
C&P off of NBC: Specifically, this is a violation of Title 18, Section 333 of the United States Code, which says that “whoever mutilates, cuts, disfigures, perforates, unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, Federal Reserve Bank, or Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such item(s) unfit to be reissued, shall be fined not more than $100 or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.”
Troll, of course. Just another example of overreach by government on the individual.
So if you love what you do, you’ll want to put as many hours into it as you can.
If you don’t like what you do, why would you work the minimum necessary because ‘life is too short’? That will be a sure way for you to stay in the job you dislike forever. I don’t like what I do, so I figured, if I only do the 40h, I will always do the same job. So, outside of my 40h/week, I try to do a little extra, so I can transition from my current situation to something better. If I can make more > save more > invest more = early retirement from a job I don’t like.
Felix Money: That is precisely what people do to not only get ahead, but also achieve fulfillment in life. The best advice in this post!
Why trade 5 days for 2, your whole life, then retire old and senile…
Because that’s life?
Pretty pessimistic crappy answer if you ask me.
If we built this fast paced and rapidly expanding world, for anything at all… It’s not to drone away over half of our waking life, in some environment that’s not particularly enjoyable to exist in. It’s the exact opposite.
We have a right, as conscious and inquisitive living things, to ask that question. Is it really worth it? Especially if our psyche isn’t necessarily any better off.
When are we going to see a collective increase in happiness, coinciding with shorter working hours, not longer ones?
Isn’t that what all this technological advancement is actually for?
Josh, it’s indeed very sad that you see life that way. Most who work hard see it as the opposite. They get a lot of reward (besides money) from their hard work and commitment, particularly a commitment to themselves and their families. But you are free to choose either way.
And it is indeed scary that you somehow see “a collective increase in happiness” as apparently taking precedence over individuals seeking happiness on their own. E.g., some working longer hours if they like, others not so much. It sounds like you would sacrifice the rights of individuals to seek their own happiness on the alter of “collective” will.
I work 40 hours a week. I spend 10 hours a week commuting. I suppose the work I do at home and don’t get a paycheck for is not work. At least by preparing my meals I don’t have to pay someone else to make my meals for me and I don’t get taxed on the money either. It’s also hard enough to find a job that will give me 40 hours a week.
I must be spoiled, I work in IT, and have for the last 14 years, and I rarely work more than 40 hours a week. I make $96,000 / year. I am oncall one week a month (calls range from none to 3). I work hard while I am at work, but honestly I could do my job most weeks in 30 hours. I find it ridiculous that corporate america wants us to be here 40 hours, when, if you are efficient, most of us could get our jobs done in less hours.
I know for me, I see wasted hours every day on the job. I see 1.5+ lunches, chatting constantly, meetings with much wasted time. All in the name of putting in the hours. I feel strongly in doing a good job and working hard. If it requires 50 or 60 hours then by all means. But I don’t agree that we should just be there to be there.
I guess everyones personality is different, and everyone thrives in different settings, but me personally, I’d rather have my own personal time to decide when to work, as long as the work gets done.
I would shoot myself if I had to work 60 hrs a week, unless someone paid me 200,000+ /year, no way I’d do it.
If you are happy with making $96,000 a year, that is all that matters.
I wanted to make $500,000 a year, and knew I had to work harder if I wanted to achieve that figure. The point is if I wanted $500k/year and wasnt Willing to work that much, then I would be totally stupid and irrational.
I gotcha, I didn’t realize we were talking about that kind of monies :)
It is my experience that most people that make that kind of money love working and aren’t looking to retire early. I assume you might be more in the minority, but I may be wrong.
I have thought recently of taking on a job with more hours, more stress, but for much more money. But the only reason would be to bank as much as possible for as long as I could stand it. And then go do something more fun like financial advisor, or teacher, or something in which my salary didn’t matter as I have a ton of cash in the bank.
The society we live in has turned people into one of two things: miserable cogs in a machine, or viscous animals clawing their way into the machine’s control room.
I choose to avoid the machine altogether. It doesn’t bring people happiness. Not really. To the cogs it brings a sense of security, and to the animals it brings a sense of carnal delight at having asserted themselves over their inferiors, but neither will ever be content. It is against the nature of the machine to be content.
I understand what your saying about being productive but you mentioned in your article that you weren’t skilled enough to get your work done in 40 hours a week or less. The claim could be made that if you double your skill and efficiency that you could get done in 40 hours a week what used to take 80 hours.
As to the woman on the bus complaining in the bus, you can’t make a straight hours to hours comparison. If her work is more physically demanding than yours than 40 hours of work might take more out of her than 80 hours in your field does.
You say people complain that they can’t get ahead while they only work 40 hours or less a week. Fair enough but then I can say the same about people who complain they they don’t have time for dating, spending time with friends and family etc. while they work 80 hours a week ( I am not saying that you do but I have heard this as well)
I think FS has a career that was based on results. It was competitive. I can see how it is with my friends in the banking industry, the more money they bring in the more money they make. It’s an industry where what you put into it has a dramatic affect on the rewards.
Most industries are not like that of course. In a top law firm the highest paid lawyer may make 10x the lowest paid lawyer. I wish that were the case in my industry. I’m an engineer and the top engineer may make 2x the lowest paid engineers and how hard you work or how long you work doesn’t translate to getting ahead.
You know what does, luck. You have to be lucky enough to have opportunity dropped in your lap, then be talented enough to come through.
I work very hard just because it’s in my nature, it’s the way I’m wired. I’m now working in my third company and was lucky enough to have that opportunity put in front of me. I didn’t deserve it more than anyone else, just right place and right time. A couple people were in it before me but were not talented enough to get the job done, and I was. I got on the ground floor of a new flagship product that was successful and now I’m among the highest paid engineers in the company. Sadly I could complain that I’m not making millions but that’s not in my nature either. I’m doing what I was meant to do in life.
But I do recognize that a more talented engineer in the company can work 24hrs a day 7 days a week and he still may not get ahead. Why, because being talented and working hard is not directly correlated to getting ahead. At least not in most industries. In the same way a super hardworking high school teacher does not have a path to billionaire status working hard at teaching. You could argue that he can do something else. But the statement that working hard/long will translate to financial success for everybody is going to fail the universality test.
Because we wouldn’t have people doing the jobs that society requires for everybody to succeed.
So I’m going to say as a person that’s about as successful as I could possibly get at what I do (mostly because I was lucky, my talent is useless without that rare opportunity), that I don’t blame people who complain that they can’t get ahead. Because for most, they can’t get ahead no matter what they do. Society simply doesn’t work that way. Their simply isn’t a path for everybody to get ahead. Anybody can, but everybody can’t no matter what. I understand what FS is saying, but I think some deserve a little complaining if they want in my opinion.
Fair points. I’ve noticed not every is as consistently Gung hi outside of finance and strategy consulting jobs.
Complaining for a bit is fine. But not doing something about it after a while is annoying.
See: https://www.financialsamurai.com/how-much-do-i-have-to-make-as-an-entrepreneur-or-contractor-to-replace-my-day-job-income/
thanks for the link, it does give me a different perspective. It’s so easy to hear what the entrepreneur makes and directly compare to my own earnings being an employee.
A direct comparison isn’t a fair comparison and most worker bees don’t realize this.
You don’t believe in or would pay overtime and you tell people “…I explain that anybody who really wants to be in the Top 50% of income earners ($33,000) can do so if they wanted to. All you have to do is work 63 hours a week at $10 to make $33,000 a year!”
You’re a compassionate guy, aren’t you? You’re probably in favor of everyone getting a “salary” so that you could work them like a horse and circumvent the country’s labor laws.
You may as well tell your adherents, “Hey, pay them $3.78 per hour and tell them they can make $33K per year easy. Just work 8736 hours. That’s only 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, you wimp.” Bet you’d like that.
Gary, yours is just a nonsensical attack on FS. He is simply illustrating the even working in the lowest skill and pay jobs in our economy you can fairly easily break the 50% mark. Moreover, it is up to the individual to gain skills and pursue work in areas that are in demand and as a result, pay well. It’s not the role of the “economy” to fashion itself in a way to pay workers a set minimum wage for whatever they want to do. The economy will crater. Supply and demand is how the economy most effectively allocates resources to the most productive ends. Pay attention to what the economy demands (in terms of jobs), adjust to it and you will do well (unless of course you are otherwise mentally or physically handicapped).
I make decent money, but I consistently work well over 50 hours a week very week, often 65+. I am required to work every other saturday (which means most weeks I work 6+ days). I take 20 minutes for lunch, and work at a frantic pace all day long. The problem with efficiency, is it requires the managers/owners to invest in staff and software. When 1 person has to handle all the bookkeeping, payroll, filing taxes and reports, and take dozens of random calls every day, it’s impossible to be efficient. Larger companies can specialize tasks, but not so with many smaller companies with limited staff. And I can’t create lean processes, because every 5 minutes I’m interrupted to handle another unrelated issue. Those who work 40 hours a week and go play golf with clients or take an hour or two to workout at lunch are plain lucky. You know in this economy, you take the job that is available when you need a job. This year, I’ve taken one lunch that was over 30 minutes long–and that was to meet with my CPA firm. It’s a luck of the draw whether you’ll get in with a great company…or get stuck with a company that is more than happy wringing you for all your worth.
That’s a lot of hours for someone over 65 RC. Is it possible to find a new gig or retire with a pension or severance? I’m glad you’re not complaining!
It doesn’t sound like he’s over 65, but he sometimes has to work over 65 hours/week. I could be missing something.
Getting in with a great company that satisfies you and pays well is most definitely NOT the luck of the draw. That’s the whole point.
Working much more than 40 hours a week can be much more difficult than implied if you are not single and fresh out of college. Some counterpoints:
1) Having a working spouse: someone’s got to take care of the kiddos when they aren’t at school/daycare particularly taking time off when they’re ill. (which happens a lot!)
2) Kids: just kids in general… some people can’t reconcile working beaucoup hours with “doing right by their kids.”
3) Working nights: Sometimes you have no choice but to break up your sleep into multiple chunks in a day. Trust me this takes up more time than sleeping all at once. Too many times I lay restless trying to “force” myself to drink in some much needed sleep.
4) Sleep: Am I the only one who gets sick way more frequently if I’m not getting enough? And by enough I only mean 6-7 hours per day.
5) Irregular hours: I had big plans to work a second job when I was freshly beginning my job. But, I have a job where the hours vary on a day to day basis. Not sure when I will go in until less than six hours ahead of time. Sometimes unannounced I can be expected to stay 5 hours over. Also there’s days where I’ll be off 5 hours then working then off 5 hours then working all in the same day.
6) Company has cut back on overtime: If you work late one day, you better cut hours later in the week or you’ll have a meeting with multiple mid-level manager in your future.
7) Overtime exempt: Your company pays and treats you like an hourly employee for most intents and purposes–but guess what–you’re considered salary. This seems to be the ultimate trump card for big employers lately (unfortunately). So sure, go ahead and work an extra twenty hours, it’s not like your employer has to pay you for it.
Also switching jobs with the sole intent of trying to work more than 40 hours per week to get ahead can be difficult to pull off for a professional currently employed in a high-paying job.
A great list of reasons why working more than 40 hours is difficult.
What about waking up early, like 5am to work a couple hours before others wake up? I know you said you need sleep, but we can sleep forever once we’re dead as someone once said.
How about staying up after the kids go to bed to work on your passion project?
Your excuses are fine, and there is no need to work 40 or more hours a week. But if you want to get ahead and limit your hours, then it doesn’t make sense.
I like a lot of your points actually, and I agree that working more hours is undoubtedly one of the best ways to help a person get ahead. I just think unfortunately some people would actually have to take a pay cut in order to switch careers in a way that enabled more hours.
Admittedly, one thing I could do is start my own part-time business if I want to work more hours and increase income. By doing so, I would only be beholden to myself for additional hours worked.
As someone whose never had reliable employment they are not excuses but the truth. I dont make enough money to quit my job. My hours also vary (which means its impossible to find a second job).
Also I cant start a side hustle because of money going to other bills. Also my sleep pattern is also erratic because of the scheduling conflicts. This leads to serious issues. Also the universe (i.e. the natural world) doesnt work this way at all.
Successful hard working people are forced to partake in unhealthy habits to get ahead or are extremely lucky and if one thing in their life didnt line up (enabling spouse/girlfriend/landlord/or just an enabling person, credit cards, employer turning a blind eye to their bad behavior, or straight blind luck or environment or others not viewing them as a threat so no sabotage or people giving then free shit or rides places) theyd never be successful.
You are contributing success to the things you can control, but it often times (99.999%) comes from things you do not control. This is a bitter truth to swallow for most of the success bloggers. Theres actually cold hard science on this. Its probably also why the best and brightest of our species never amount to much (i.e. our modern society is anathema to true success). And successful people parroting platitudes and cliches are not our best and brightest.
Yes, this article is very snobby and painful to read. Worst part is by the end, even if I were motivated to earn more money and work more hours, there is no direction or suggestion on what I should do. I have a good picture of my finances already and I do not get paid overtime at my job. So after the 40 hours at work, what am I supposed to do? There is no follow-up…
Is it really snobby to question the logic of working longer and harder if you want to get farther?
There are a lot of things one can do:
1) Work on your X Factor before going to work or after work after putting in your 40 hours. My X Factor was starting this site, and spending 25-30 hours a week for 3 years before allowing me to negotiate a severance to do this full-time.
2) Here are a list of sectors and jobs that pay six figures.
3) Rethink your company loyalty. It cost me a fortune for not continuously looking for new opportunities.
4) Spend an hour reading my Investments and Career categories.
5) Track your net worth by leveraging the internet. Once you know where your money is going and coming in, you can better optimize your wealth. You’ll also have more confidence in taking calculated risks with your career.
I hope these five action points will help you.
Sam
I will do these. As I stated, I already have a picture of my net worth, depsite its poor state at 25. But I can work on the rest of these points. I do also work in a six-figure career but am still young, so I have not grown to that salary yet.
The best things in life aren’t things, so unless you really love your job, and do not have other interests that require long hours of practice, and have others do your home and car repairs, more than 40 hours will not give you much time for sleeping or eating.
I guess it’s a matter of priorities, and although accumulating wealth can give one freedom, at this stage in my life I value time much more than “stuff.”
Eight hours per day is quite a bit of time to spend even on the things I love to do. Some people really love day trading, business, or medical research, some love music, acting, or philosophy. Here’s a bit of inspiration for everyone:
The US is known for being overworked as it is. It’s supposed to be one of the leading causes for heart problems, obesity, depression, and violence.
Yet here you seem to think sleeping is a waste of another 8 possible work hours. Who needs eating? Let’s get fed intravenously so we don’t waste time that could be put to work. Stand over a portable toilet so you don’t have to waste precious seconds taking a dump.
Anatomically-modern humans have been around for 200,000 years. Until agriculture, you didn’t need more than 4 hours of working per day to put food on the table. That means we have only been working this hard for 5% of our time on earth.
People have families, kids, pets, friends, an actual existing -LIFE- outside of work. In the Netherlands, it is normal for men to work 4 10-hour days and have 3-day weekends for hobbies and kids, and these are the folks who INVENTED the stock market.
The Germans have some of the most vacation days in the world. Are you one to call the Germans a bunch of lazy whiners?
This article also flies in the face of workplace research. At Google, for instance, workers are required not to work on company projects on Fridays, but instead create their own projects. Some 80% of the company’s innovation comes from this single day of freedom. It has also been found that out of 8 hours of work, only a couple of those are really efficient, and efficiency plummits the more hours you tack on.
People think their best and innovate their best when they can have a variety of experiences. This means *gasp* having parts of your life that you AREN’T working.
You know who DOES work as long as you are implying? Chinese sweatshop workers. THERE is your “image of success”.
Meanwhile, politicians work only about half the year and make six-figures base salary.
Ah the Google 80% myth. Don’t you know Marisa Mayer debunked it, and it’s really the 120% rule? https://www.businessinsider.com/mayer-google-20-time-does-not-exist-2015-1
I agree with you on kicking back like the Europeans, despite all their debt problems. https://www.financialsamurai.com/ive-seen-americas-future-and-it-looks-bright/
America is fine. Just don’t complain if you are only working 40 hours a week. Relax and enjoy life!
And you lost all credibility WEbx when you stated: “Until agriculture, you didn’t need more than 4 hours of working per day to put food on the table.”
Where did you possibly conjure that up and how could have believed it!
Until modern times most people throughout civilization devoted almost all waking moments trying to ensure their survival, even then they had short life spans by comparison.
There is nothing new about FS’ propositions, people have been doing it forever. Time available for leisure for most of the modern world continues to grow. It is your choice what you do with your time.
I’ve spent time in Holland, it’s not the utopia you make it out to be. To blame and criticize others for working hard to get ahead is ridiculous.
Time available for leisure continues to grow? I’m going to have to disagree with that. Our “leisure time” is not really leisure time. In today’s age of smartphones and digital communication it means you are always connected to your work or your job. There really is no time to unplug. It’s not really leisure time if you are still sending emails and dealing with work communications just because you are not in the office.
Personally I don’t mind working more than 40 hours a week. It’s not the hours. It’s having a clear separation between work and non work time.
Rama, it may not hold true for your occupation, but in general it does. You may want to change your occupation.
But even your example, smartphones and communication devices enable people to go home and not have to stay at the office in order to get work done. Whether on balance that means people are putting in more hours or not is debatable and likely depends on your occupation. Hence the explosion of work-at-home, which is desired far more by employees than employers which suggests employers perceive they get more from employees if they stay at the office.
The aspect of not being able to “unplug” is real. Whether that creates a net increase in stress or other discomfort is likely up for debate. Being trapped at the office (when we had no digital devices) was not fun and has it’s own stress.
I’m going to take this opportunity to brag.
I have a 40 hour/week job that pays me around 3x my living expenses, net.
I actually stay in the office 35-40 hours a week depending on how much work I have.
I functionally work 30-35 hours.
Furthermore, I’m one of my employer’s more profitable employees, because I have invested the time it takes in learning how to do my job effectively, and I’m always expanding my skillset.
People just don’t think or plan enough. There are immense opportunities to add large amounts of value for only moderate amounts of work out there. You just have to acquaint yourself with them.
I’m leaving this comment as a general one for most of FSs bogs. I’m not trying to be insulting or condescending, as I find much of your factional information quite useful. But I have that annoying trait of wanting to put in my $.02 when I read things on blogs that bother me. It’s annoying, I know!
1. Your constant reference to “working your butt off for 13 years 60-80hrs a week is not only annoying but a major deterrent to revisiting your site. You did it when you were (and in many readers minds, still) young and single and making $250K+ a year, with the single mindset of making as much money as possible to save as much as possible. For by far, most people, this is NOT an option! If you only have to answer to yourself, and CAN work those hours, and reap substantial rewards for the workload, then why wouldn’t you. Its a matter of opportunity and priority, that’s all. 13 years is not impressive at all, and IS insulting to many people who work many more years because they don’t have the opportunity or aptitude to do what you did. Additionally, as you’ve admitted, it was pure luck to land that job at GS at your age, with your lack of experience, again, not likely to happen to by far, to the majority. The VAST VAST majority of people graduating from college will NEVER have the opportunity handed to them to earn that kind of money, or even the future hope to earn that in a few years, nor do normal 21 year olds have a fascination and understanding of the stock market. You started in an industry that has the potential to earn huge money, if you are good, talented, lucky, and can work with that mindset. The vast majority will not, and can not live in a major city, be the kind of person to work in that type of finance job, not even KNOW that type of job is an option and that THAT kind of money was even possible, assuming they even have the knowledge, aptitude or discipline to even consider that job in the first place.
2. You also mention many times how you saved more than 50% of your take home pay and invested wisely to get ahead. This is great advice, and a nice point, but again who WOULDN”T be able to do that if they were young and single and making that kind of money? Assuming a net total tax of 35%, then your take home would have been $162.5k year ( I realize you didn’t make this your first year, etc, etc), but bottom line is a young kid out of college can EASILY live on $81k take home a year, even in NYC. Do it making a decent $75k gross a year, and I’d be impressed. You say this to make a point, but it is a shallow, hollow one. Similar to your, “obviously you must max out your 401k…” where you assume that is even possible.
Thanks for your comment.
1) There are over 1,000 articles on Financial Samurai. Yes, hard work is a constant theme, especially in this article. And it is true that some people don’t have as much option to work hard, but hard work requires no skill.
2) I agree. My opportunity was handed to me, and most of my accomplishments were mostly due to luck. I did get into other firms besides GS, but those were lucky breaks too.
3) My base salary was $40,000 living in Manhattan in 1999, and rose to $55,000 in 2000 as all 2nd year analysts got a big bump b/c year 2000 first year analysts were coming in at $50K. I lived in a studio with a HS buddy of mine and then a studio with windowless side room w/ a colleague. Not sure where you are getting $162,500 a year in income? That would be sweet! On my income, I did max out my 401k. Manhattan was still crazy expensive there.
I wrote this post for you recently: Sweet Dreams Of Becoming A Millionaire Again.
Your comment is what helps keep me going. So I thank you for reminding me that I’m mostly lucky, and that I shouldn’t take my luck for granted. Financial Samurai’s growth is also very fortuitous. I will continue to put in the hours today in 2015 and beyond, despite my other obligations.
Sorry, but I would not say you were mostly lucky! Maybe, the timing was right for you, but most people make their own luck. You are skilled and talented in the ways and means of finance! You DID work hard, and as you said, you got paid to learn to make more money and understand a system that is more difficult for the average person to understand…more than I think you realize. You deserve every cent you made. You did not rob widows and orphans, or sell drugs, or whatever. You EARNED it and you are letting others know it is certainly possible, and here are some ways. I get all that. I read your blog because it is one of many that opens my eyes to alternatives to the traditional working way of life. In one of them, I was pretty sure you said something like “I was surprised to find that very few jobs in (sic) programming pay $250,000 a year, where as in finance that is common pay” Some follow ups mentioned that Finance pays out more to their employees, at the cost of improving returns to shareholders” . It was inferred that you were successfully making $250k a year by the time you left. I apologize if that assumption was wrong.
I was only pointing out that you may alienate some of your readership that would then miss many fine points you bring up. GenX and GenY all are trending to marry much later in life and postpone, sometimes, forever, having a family. Good or bad, that is not my place to say, but financially, if you don’t mind hard work, have confidence, and intelligence, and a degreed education, it greatly increases your chances of it being a winning philosophy. So looking at statistics, and drawing conclusions about the spendthrift of Americans (and don’t get me wrong, Americans, in general, are HORRIBLE planning for their financial future) is misleading, and loaded with caveats. Not everyone can be in the stock market trade, or live in NYC, or SanFran. If they did, then the opportunities would not be there either. When you are single and young, THAT is the time to take the chances that if they go wrong, will not affect your spouse, or children, and from which you have the time to recover.
A small example: suppose your life was identical to what you describe, except you were hopelessly in love with a long term soulmate, got married, and had a kid in 2000? Would you be ABLE to put in those same hours, live like you did, and saved like you saved? Of course not. If you did, your may have had to get divorced, as your wife was no longer happy living as you wanted, and you’d STILL be paying a large child support and maybe alimony. Plus less time and opportunity to move for work, because now you don’t want to be too far from your only lovely child, etc, etc, etc.
That’s what I meant by my previous comments. ONE decision can totally eliminate, or make hugely unlikely, an otherwise perfect financial plan. I KNOW you are only expressing your personal experience, passing valuable knowledge to others that they would have a hard time learning on their own, etc, etc. I commend you for it. But like the flak you took on saying “only buy a car that costs 10% of your income”, your musings will be far more accepted if you empathize with the far larger percentage of people that think its absurd to only buy a $15k car (and only ONE!, most people DON’T live in a city and aren’t single, need more than one) if you make 150K a year. Financially sound? Of course it is! But to many people, the whole point of having money is a balancing act of enjoyment now and later. It’s the balancing that is the hard part. $200k income for life? Love to have it! Don’t really need it, in my current life, but I’ll have close to 80% or better, when I decide to retire. It’ll happen almost in spite of myself, because I already followed many of your good points, before you were born.
I am a successful, hardworking engineer. Tops in my field. My work (with the team that I direct, and work with) directly improves the lives of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in the state where I live, health wise and financially. My assets are low 7 figures. But I am also 58 years old, so for the exact same period in my life that you were starting out, the opportunities that you took advantage of did not exist. A few of my close college friends are already retired, with high 7 figure assets, and planned guaranteed incomes that exceed anything I will ever make. They all would also tell you, that none of them, even though they have engineering degrees, are engineers anymore. They all took the risk and leap of faith that an MBA, and the business side, often finance, were the smarter path, and are far more financially successful than I am as a result. They had a knack for that, that I do not.
@Poster, great article! I have been working 90/hours a week each day since 98′. I am still not the multi-millionaire I hoped to be, but I am well off. I can buy what I want, when I want for the most part. Point is, I hope these young kids listen to you. Working harder does get you further. And for those of you who are wondering why I am a multi-millionaire with all the hours I have worked, the answer is my family background. I came from less than nothing. By the time I got through cleaning up my mother’s debt, my father’s debt, my sister’s debt, bailing my brother out of jail, my aunt’s medicine, ect, ect there wasn’t much for me, that is, until now! Everyone in my family is squared away and I was finally able to travel out of the country last year. This year I will do the same.
Alot of you people are spoiled! You don’t appreciate the fact that you could work hard and that you don’t have any ball & chains attached to you from bum family members. Work hard, stop complaining and maybe we’ll run into each other on the next trip I take to France. Cheers!
I work 3 jobs:two are part time and one is full time. I usually work 60 to 75 hours a week and can still barely afford food. I don’t buy anything luxury and I never eat out. I make about 1.3k a month because of minimum wage. That’s just some over 13k $/year. I have tried my ass off looking for higher paying jobs in ny but no luck. Cost of living and taxes is what kills in ny, and I’m not in NYC either! I want to move but need money and a job ready for me wherever I go. I have tried my whole life to get ahead. I’m not someone who buys clothes and asks where my money goes. If I need a new shirt for work and I get one for 2 dollars at the thrift store. I am sick of the hole I can’t climb out of and have considered giving up many times. I even went through a suicidal state. Can you blame me? I work like a dog and feel like I’m a slave when I have no money left even after 13 hour shifts. There are people on welfare that are better off than me but I don’t have a child lol, so just because I don’t pop one out for money and I have to suffer. People who are fair workers really are more fucked over than many welfare in my opinion. I’m trying to give myself one more year to find something better. If there is nothing and I officially can’t do it anymore.
I remember the boss I had at a college job who told me i’d never get anywhere working 40 hours a week. I moved to a metropolis, earned a medical degree, and travel the world while she still slaves away in a call center
Data Point #1. I wonder who cooks dinner when she gets home. I wonder who got the children off to school in the morning. I wonder who got them breakfast. I wonder who will help them with their homework that night. Who will drive them to Little League games and school plays–and watch the school plays. Oh, that’s right. She shouldn’t have children. She should be spending that time working–14 or 15 hours a day like in the good ‘ol days. While a person working 40 hours a week shouldn’t expect to get rich a person who works that much shouldn’t have to live in poverty.
……..and what if she actually doesn’t have kids? What then?
She works 40 or more hours a week just like she does when she has children.
then i wonder who spends hours researching data points on our oppressed lives and writing blogs, books, and posts about them. i wonder who will spend the time THINKING about the predicaments we’re in, such as peak oil and the failing of various currencies, and male supremacy as it continues to massacre thousands on thousands of women and children (and some men as well). i wonder who will do all the things that those who are good little slaves don’t think about until it’s too late and we’ve “crashed” YET AGAIN.
stop abusing and browbeating the workers of the world into putting in extra time. you don’t get more done in 8 hours than you do in 4. 4 is where productivity begins to noticeably wane.
try science. review actual data. stop trying to sell people crap. wake up.
I just work early shift and another job 2 days a week while my oldest goes to preschool part-time. My husband works about 70 hours/week as a head chef and I work 35/week combined. and get most of the housework done.
Yes, but you should be working 70 hours a week in addition to your duties as wife and mother.
The writer wasn’t saying everyone must work more hours, she was saying if you want to make large amounts of money, you should be prepared to work harder and make sacrifices to do so and if you would rather put in shorter hours and you choose not to drive yourself, you should make that choice with the understanding that it is highly likely you aren’t going to be as financially successful as someone who does.
I think everyone knows people who are, let’s face it, lazy and unmotivated and seem to spend large amounts of time and energy moaning and groaning about how unfair it is that the world isn’t dropping huge bags of money in their laps and rewarding them for doing nothing, or they complain about how put upon they are because they are expected to work hard to get ahead when they don’t want to. That sort of sense of entitlement to be rewarded without doing the work and making the sacrifices is unrealistic and ridiculous. If you want a more relaxed life and to go through the motions and go home, go ahead do that, different people want different things, just don’t expect to make the big bucks if you make that choice because it isn’t highly likely to happen.
Come now, a 22 year old fresh grad already making babies, picking up kids and making dinner for the family? pish posh. Average female marriage age today is in the late 20s, having kids maybe late 20s early 30s if not later. You have a solid 6-12 years to make a killing. That way, by the time you get married you can start your own business and by being your own boss you can work your own hours/from home/whatever because you’ve built a solid reputation and client network and you can spend more time with family when you actually have a family.
Both my parents used to work 70+ hours a week. They get up at 5 a.m., my mom would drop me off school at 7 am and my dad will pick me up around 6 pm and make supper. After I go to sleep at around 9 pm, my parents would either study or work for 2 more hours. On the weekend, we would have fun doing all sorts of activities, but they would still work in the morning and night. I was always the first kid to arrive at school and the last one to leave. I learned to use the public transportation and cook my own meal earlier than my peers. I never relied on parental help for homework, and I still get rewards every year as one of the top performing students in my school.
Now I have my own children and I don’t plan to work for 40 hours or less. I am earning 6 figure salary as a young professional because my parents showed me first hand how working hard lead to a successful career. I want to be a role model for my kids too.
And i want to be a role model for my kids by actually being present in their lives. My parents made the tough financial decision of having her stay home with me. They know things would have been easier with 2 incomes, but the time and memories she had can never be taken away from her.
Theres a difference betwern steong work ethic and workaholism. I think people who struggle to get pregnant appreciate their time more than those who pop kids out and throw cash at someone else to take care of them while they live their busy, oh so important lives.
I hope you find your reality check, and find it sooner than on your death bed wishing you worked less and spent more tiime with your kids.
Here is to all of you….This country is based on a 40 hour work week. I work 70 with no overtime pay. There should be some value to life and which is why 40 should be the standard. I work 70 because TODAY that is what we need to do with 2 parents working to live comfortably. BUT WE SHOULDN’T HAVE TOO. That’s the point. It’s not that one person wants it more. The 40 hour work week was made so you can work hard and still enjoy life instead of work for life.
In the 50’s and 60’s one middle class adult could go to work for 40 hours and get paid well, come home and be able to support a family and still be in the middle class and pay their bills. Now we live in a society where 2 people have to work and work 70 hours a week. No one is their to help raise the kids and a vacation is now labeled for the weak. So when you hear someone that doesn’t work as much of you instead of looking down on them look down on yourself. You will die with a little bit more money then them but you will die working and the memories you have built and the memories your family will remember of you is that you were not there for them when they needed you. That is what this country has become.
How much are you making working 70 hours a week now?
I just figured out how someone can actually make $50 – $100 / hour driving for Uber. That’s $100,000 – $200,000 a year. Come check out this new post as I’m constantly trying to figure out ways to work smarter.
FS: I just read your Data Points added to the original post. Very good. It’s amazing how people think things are worse now than in the past. There is so much data out there… we work shorter hours, we make more in real terms, the lowest among us have done considerably better in the last several decades (tax breaks, assistance programs, EITC, greater consumption, etc.)… and economic growth and innovation provides things the poorest among us would never have imagined (smart phones, HD flat screen TVs, amazing medical procedures, cars that do just about everything, amazing appliances, cheap food, cheap vacations, every form of entertainment at our fingertips, etc.). I will check out your newsletter, sure it’s very good.
$100-200 an hour working for Uber? Maybe if you live in Manhattan or another major city…. Oh wait, many of us dont. That would be impossible where I live. Just goes to show that your assumptions on “getting ahead” are nowhere near as simple as you think for everyone. And you version of being “ahead” is just plain sad.
I’m not even sure why I’m reading this article or how I found my way to it, but it’s interesting to see that people think this way. Why on earth would I want to work all these hours and get so little sleep and neglect my family? Why would ANYONE?
I’m also 34. My husband and I are both high school teachers making $40,000. We love our careers. We go in at 6 and can leave by 2 if we want. That’s our 40 hours. Of course, there are many days when we stay much later than that just to stay caught up on grading, planning, etc. And during football/cheerleading season, we both work closer to 60 hours a week with the coaching duties we have (for only an extra $1500 each for the whole 5 month season). But on the days we do come home at 2, we have the entire afternoon/evening with our children, we take our boat out fishing until sunset, we go see movies, all in all we spend a lot of time together enjoying life. During our summers off, we used to travel to central and South American countries for a month of cheap traveling and trying to see the world. With the kids now though, we’ve gotten more into backpacking in the mountains, road trips, basically just showing our kids how to be happy and enjoy life – getting them out the house, away from the TV and computer, no phones, no video games, and most importantly, no daycare! Spring break is usually a week in the Florida keys and spending most days on the boat. What a way for our kids to grow up! Christmas break is 2.5 weeks off driving to see grandparents and doing whatever else we like. As far as hours go, teachers have the most flexibility of anyone. As far as pay, we’ll never make much more than we do now, no matter how many hours we put in or if we are the best teacher or coach in the entire district. So unless I want to quit a career that I love, none of your ideas apply to us. Or to many other people. Working harder does not always equal better pay and it’s ridiculous to think so.
The best thing in life I ever did to “get ahead” was to convince my husband to become a teacher – to work LESS hours. And the amazing life – the experiences and the adventures that are only possible by our work schedule, is something very few families have. How more ‘ahead’ could I possibly get than this? And why anyone want the opposite? For more money?
It’s really sad to see how backwards some people’s priorities are. Money, money, money. It really is what is wrong with America. If you’ve traveled around the world as much as you say you have, how have you not missed that?
Hi Lacey,
Did you actually read the Uber $100/hour article? It’s about leveraging your platform, technology, and the internet to make money for you so you don’t have to. I’m all about kicking back and working less too. That’s why I saved aggressively and built multiple income streams over the past 15 years so I didn’t have to work.
My personal goal is to build $200,000 a year in passive income so I have the option of living anywhere in the world. Unfortunately, some of the most desirable places to live in the world are also the most expensive because everybody wants to live there.
There are so many ways to make good money and be free. Check out Income Profiles Of Financially Free People to learn more. I retired at 34, and do not regret a moment of working hard the first 13 years out of college. It’s so worth it! Life is not about money, money, money at all. Life is all about living and being free.
Can you imagine never having traveled around the world, not speaking a language, being restricted to do what you want because you haven’t saved enough or worked hard enough? Can you imagine working at a job you don’t like for the majority of life? I don’t want to just take 2.5 weeks off for Christmas break once a year. I want to take an infinite amount of time off. Don’t restrict yourself! If you’re happy making $40,000 that’s great. I wouldn’t judge someone just b/c they want to earn much more and be 100% free.
But if you are unsatisfied with your life making only $40,000 a year and working only 40 hours a week as it seems, don’t project onto me, but do something about your situation. Know you can do more and be happier if you want to. Don’t settle!
Best,
Sam
Very well said!
I don’t agree with this.
The reason being: you’re only taking into account amount of time worked, not effectiveness of that work. If I’m extremely efficient, analytical and intelligent and put together a model that makes the company an extra million $ a year, all while working my contracted hours, of course I deserve, and will get a raise. Someone else might slave away 60 hours a week but not producing anything near the quality I am.
It’s about the outcome, not merely grinding out hours.
And if the outcome isn’t good enough, then what’s wrong with working harder to get there?
If you’re getting ahead and working less than 40 hours, fantastic! And if you aren’t, then stop being delusional.
Go ahead and be my guest – work yourself to death.
There are ways to earn more money without having to work your ass off every day. And every job is different. Performing one job for 5 hours can be just as detrimental on the psyche as 10 hours would be on another.
Also, someone already said that it’s about quality not quantity – this is true. It’s not important how many hours you’ve put into something. It’s about the end result. I think the world is going in a different direction, and a positive one, from the “grand” 8-hour system.
You should be a part of these changes, as your way of thinking is extremely unhealthy and outdated imo.
Why would I work myself to death? I put in extra hours b/c I wanted to get ahead. At the age of 34.5, I negotiated a severance package, and retired.
It’s been 3.5 years now, and I’ve “worked” on my writing about 10 hours a week on average. It’s been great. Just got back from 4 weeks in Asia, and saw the DMZ near North Korea for the first time.
If you want to get ahead, you have to put in the extra effort. If you are happy working 40 hours a week, and doing so for an extended period of time, fantastic! But I wanted to be free early.
Related:
What Does Early Retirement Feel Like?
How Does It Feel To Be Financially Independent?
I don’t understand why people who don’t want to work harder get all uppity about people who want to work harder to get ahead. Do what you want to do. If you are satisfied with what you get for a forty hour week, good for you, it doesn’t make you superior to someone who wants to work more and it certainly doesn’t make you more realistic to think that you should work less and still flourish financially in the same way that someone who does choose to work longer and harder will. If you are satisfied with less, good for you. There are people, however, who do make the connection between hard work and sacrifice and success and their are even people who enjoy driving themselves. To each their own, make your choice and take the consequences. All the writer was saying is, don’t expect to sit around doing nothing and have the return be success. I’ve listened to enough unmotivated people lamenting how unappreciated they are while doing nothing to know that most of these people are not successful because they haven’t earned it, not because the world is being unfair to them.
Here in the UK, the average is 35-45 hours per week. I currently work 37 hours (08:00 – 16:30, with an hour unpaid lunch) and I find this exhausting. Other than when buying my house where I worked 60 hours over two jobs, I have never had a full time job that expected me to work over my prescribed hours. All of my work has been in corporate IT departments, some as a consultant so results counted more than hours.
Check out the post: Are You Too Proud To Be Rich? When Uber Drivers Make More Than Uber Employees. You’ll see how some side hustle has made people 2X – 20X the median income of their area.
why do you need so much money? What’s with people’s obsession with money? You won’t own any of it in a few years. You’ll be worm food.
True. I left the work place at 34 and have forsaken a lot of money. It’s been really nice to work less, pay less taxes, enjoy life more. How about you?
Related:
The Fear Of Running Out Of Money Is Completely Overblown
What’s It Feel Like To Be Financially Independent
The responses to this article have been…interesting. I understand the basic point you were trying to make Sam, but the tone-deaf way you tried to make it is why you’re getting hammered by so many commenters.
Hey Sam. You share some really great stuff – I agree with a lot of what you post about financial strategies – but other times your inability to take a step back from your own life and perspective (an unmarried healthy male with no kids doing an information-based job who was able to save an incredible amount of his pay) and imagine things from a different perspective (a single parent with kids doing a manual labour job barely scraping by) really hurts your ability to communicate your message. People tune out.
Life & finances may seem incredibly simple from your perspective, but not everyone is like you. Something to ponder before you write your next article like this one. :-)
I *do* whole-heartedly support your desire to financially educate and help everyone you can!
Here is some perspective:
* Worked minimum wage jobs as a teenager.
* Currently putting an extra 10 hours a week driving for Uber.
* Faced plenty of racism growing up in the South, which has motivated me to become financial independent.
* Faced a tsunami of failures recently, but I want to keep trying.
* Grew up in developing countries for the first 13 years of my life (Zambia, Malaysia, Taiwan) and visited India and China multiple times for extended periods of time. I speak Mandarin, some Spanish, and English.
* Parents were middle class government workers, where I lived in a town house and rode in a 10 year old car.
Life is simple in America because I’ve seen the other side where it’s hard to get ahead based on hard work alone. For those who are clueless and spoiled, try working a minimum wage job as an adult like I’m currently doing. You will NO LONGER take for granted all the opportunities you have.
Tell me Jason, why do you think I don’t have perspective? Do you really think I’m tone deaf? People are welcome to work 40 hours a week or less. Just don’t complain if they don’t feel like they are getting ahead.
Please tell me about YOUR perspective.
Thanks for sharing those links. I hadn’t read most of them, nor did I know the variety of places you grew up in. You certainly have more perspective on poverty and developing nations than I do.
I particularly enjoyed your article on minimum wage jobs – I agree completely. I started out working at a local rec center selling slurpees and bags of chips when I was in my mid-teens, and my first “real” job was at age 18 working at Blockbuster video. Then I had an illustrious career at Office Depot making photocopies. I understand what it’s to work long hours for little pay. But I also come from a white, middle-class family that never had serious struggles – I never suffered. I understand that I was more fortunate than most in the world.
I agree with what you wrote about opportunities, and the basic premise of “you have to work hard to get ahead; life will not hand you success”.
But, again, based on the reactions you’re getting to this post, the *way* in which you tried to communicate your point was tone-deaf and that’s why this discussion is blowing up with angry posts. That was my only point.
I’m always happy to learn from others. Can you point out specific examples of tone deafness?
I’m still waiting to hear your perspective instead of just judging me for tone deafness. Thanks
Hey Sam, this is your Web site, so you obviously write what you want and call the shots. If you want to write things like this and elicit comments like there are on this page – maybe you want to create controversy to get more page views for all I know – that’s your call. I’m just a visitor trying to learn about finance. :-)
That wasn’t very helpful, why not just point out specific examples of tone deafness instead of getting hostile. It was a legitimate request. He made a point of saying if you are happy with your 40 hours, all is well, but if you aren’t then working harder is the answer. I think people are blowing up and upset because lots of people would rather not have to work harder to get ahead and they resent being told that that is the way to do it. Throwing in the single parent doing minimum wage is ridiculous, of course there are people who are struggling and in really difficult circumstances, but that isn’t who this article was aimed at, it was aimed at people who have more opportunity available to them, but would rather complain that they don’t want to work harder, but still want to be rewarded more. It just doesn’t work that way in most instances. If you are going to put in a mediocre effort, you are going to get a mediocre result. If you are going to choose to spend your time lounging, listening to music, slacking off, it is highly unlikely someone is going to pay you for that.
Thanks for your support Becky!
I think you and others will like this follow on post: Abolish Welfare Mentality: A Janitor Makes $271,000 A Year, Why Can’t You?
Sam,
Very late response, but I’ll take your challenge on the pointing out what seems “tone deaf”.
There’s a difference between wanting to get ahead by working like crazy so you can retire early and simply wanting to be able to work a normal 40 hour work week and live a reasonable middle class life and be able to retire in one’s 60s. Most of your data points seem to be people wanting to do the latter, and it’s something many third or fourth generation American’s have been able to do without working more than the traditional 40.
When you address that group, you seem to treat them like they’re trying to do the former, which requires an entirely different mindset; one which immigrants who moved here and are used to hustling a little more just to get by are probably better at. Immigrants are much more likely to start their own businesses than 3rd or 4th generation Americans. Most Americans are “fat and happy” and don’t believe citizens in a wealthy nation should have to work like crazy just to stay afloat.
Combine this with statements like your data point 3 on overtime, and the animosity gets clearer. That statement is entirely unsympathetic and tone deaf, and unless the worker is exempt, illegal on the federal level. If a business expects one to work more than 40 hours a week, it can pay a premium for those extra hours – and it should. If the employee is exempt the theory is the salary is already at a premium. That does not always play out in practice. There are plenty of retail managers that make way less per hour than their hourly employees because of how many hours they are forced to work.
Points 1 and 2 seem a bit off too. On point 1 most people have obligations outside of work which can contribute to that exhaustion. Some are merely “frivolous” social duties, some are charity work, some are family. On point 2, yes, it is entirely normal in a typical office style job to be mentally exhausted by the end of a regular work day. I’ve worked both relatively manual jobs and office jobs, and I’m often more exhausted by the “easy” office job. Relatively manual being janitorial, hay bailing, some house cleaning, a little construction and landscaping. Heavy manual jobs – oil rigs, deep sea fishing, many farming jobs where there are tight quotas on minimum harvested and maximum spoilage I have not done and can’t comment on.
I think there’s also resentment on the amount of work one has to do to get by in many places going up. Much of that is because there are simply more people trying to live in relatively the same amount of space in and around successful urban areas, so property values and rents have sky rocketed.
That said, America right after WWII and during the cold war experienced maybe the height of the middle class way of life. Work your 40, afford your home and decent car. The grandparents who had been through the great depression and went through true economic hardships seemed to be doing all right for themselves if they made it through the war. Certainly their children did. There grandchildren? I think they started to see the first contractions on America’s relative ease.
Offshoring and mass layoffs being the first pass beyond the rising housing prices. Corporations seeking all the benefits of a global economy while doing their best to make sure the citizens couldn’t benefit in kind. (Move the jobs to where labor is cheap, but prevent one from purchasing where the products are cheap.)
Certainly the widening gap between the minimum, or even average employee’s wage, and that of upper management and the executive class and share holders doesn’t help. Nor do multi-billion dollar companies and individual multi-millionaires and billionaires, who helped designed the tax laws, using tax loop holes like the double Irish to, legally, avoid paying their fair share of the taxes, moving the tax burden from the wealthy – who already are making a much greater percentage of a company’s profits than they traditionally had – onto the middle class who already seem to be getting squeezed by higher costs of living, offshoring, etc.
Finally, I think people approach things from what they are used to or what they know. Many people don’t know how to hustle in the fashion you’ve outlined. They never had to, nor did their parents, and while their grandparents might have that was often prior to WWII. They’ve never been exposed to it. Americans were sold that one could get A job in a trade, or go to school and have a career with one employer and do well. After a few generations were able to do this, it’s a bit of a shock to many that this is less and less true.
Finally, the typically risk adverse employee often makes a terrible entrepreneur.
Thanks for your thoughts. At the end of the day, everything is rational and there is no point forcing beliefs on anybody. If you want to lose weight, you will eat less and exercise more. If you want more money, you will work longer hours, build multiple income streams, and invest etc.
Despite growing up in third world countries, having middle class parents who drove 10 year old cars, and attending public school for HS and college, I’m probably more tone deaf than the average person b/c I’ve seen immense poverty growing up overseas for 14 years, and the things so many people have done to get themselves out of poverty. America is PARADISE in comparison. There is so much access and opportunity.
I hope more Americans can speak a second language well and travel to see how good they have it.
Check out: Spoiled Or Clueless? Try Working Minimum Wage Jobs As An Adult
Living In An Expensive Country Can Make You Richer And More Empathetic
I think the discussion is “blowing up with angry posts” because those people responding with anger sound like they simply don’t want to hear the truth/reality. That is where we are today, perhaps part of why FS has this site, because people simply do not take responsibility for the outcomes in their life anymore. They attribute their dissatisfaction and shortcomings to externalities… my job, my boss, the company that won’t pay me what “I” think I’m worth, capitalism, society in general, etc., etc.
This.
Jobs vary greatly in quality. It’s one thing to have a career which is challenging, fulfilling, and remunerative, and something else entirely to have a job which is menial, tedious, unfulfilling, and offers commensurate compensation.
It is exasperating to see people with rewarding careers complain that people with menial jobs don’t work 60 hours a week. And NO, I have no desire to advance from burger flipper to manager of burger flippers. Can’t I have other options?
Why yes you can, but you’ll have to make more of an effort to get there. The writer wasn’t complaining that people don’t work more, he was pointing out that people want more without making the connection between hard work and sacrifice and getting more. I’m sure there are many people who are choosing to do the extra work and put in the extra hours who would choose to work less and get more if they could, but they aren’t unrealistic enough to think that that is something that will magically happen, so they look at the reality of the situation and choose to take advantage of their opportunities and get ahead that way, even though they would prefer that a pretty little fairy come knocking on their door and give them big bags of money and pots of gold.
LMAO! You use conversations you’ve overheard and comments people have left on your blog as “data points.” This shows how clearly ignorant and out of touch you are with reality while you drink martinis and play golf with your buddies and call that “work.” I shouldn’t validate this shlock with a response, but I feel it necessary for the misguided people who may come across this.
Do you think people actually get paid to work extra hours in your typical salary job? Salary means you get paid for 40 hours regardless of how many hours you actually work. What type of delusional logic does one have to have to propose having people work extra hours for free? Especially given the fact that depending on the industry and region, many of these salary jobs are pay well below the market value and are packaged as “opportunities.” Basic math shows you that the more hours you work, the less money you are making. If a salaried employee makes $16 an hour for 40 hours, but actually works 50 they are actually making less than $12.80 an hour. If they work 60, as you suggest since you like to use hyperbole to make your points sound legitimate, they would make $10.67 an hour. At that rate you can just work for customer service instead and possibly even get paid more, no college degree and student loan debt required. If you factor that in, you’re losing even more money from debts you wouldn’t otherwise have and if you quantify the opportunity cost of time spent pursuing a degree. At one point I was working 60-70 hours working one full time and two part time jobs which didn’t require any special education. I actually got paid by the hour and it was worth my time. If I actually worked 40 hours in my salary job, all those extra hours I worked for free could have been invested in a part time job that actually paid me.
Are you really naive enough to think that “hard work pays off” in this volatile economy? All it does is makes long, unpaid hours the norm… People working evenings or even coming in during the weekends, and eventually leads to burnout and health problems. People bust their ass trying to suck up and do the impossible and find themselves in the same position years later without any raise and being passed by promotion. But I’m sure you are an expert since you worked for McDonald’s once when you were a teen but got a six figure job straight out of college when you could actually do that since the economy was way different. Now you can stand on your pedestal in the clouds blaming economically-disadvantaged people for not working hard enough as a marketing technique to sell books because you happened to get lucky and make money when things were good, so that makes you an “expert” with your tips about being a “go getter” which are irrelevant in today’s society. Nice scam you have going on here.
Glad I made you laugh! Please laugh at these two articles too:
Spoiled Or Clueless? Try Working A Minimum Wage Job As An Adult
Income Profiles Of Financially Free People
It’s just easier for people to dismiss their situation by believing “the economy is rigged” or blame others, and of course spew vitriol at others to feel even better.
And as a reference to empirical evidence on how we are ALL better off in this generation (like every successive one) I like Brookings article that summarizes work done by the CBO on the matter. They are hardly right-leaning organizations and the article is very readable (I’ve done work in the field of economics, business, research, engineering).
I’m sure you’ve seen it FS, it covers how we are ALL about 40% or more BETTER OFF in terms of real after-tax income than 30+ years ago. That means if we are no better off than our parents generation we have 40% more spending power. That does not consider how products and services, for the same real price, are across the board better and more functional (even food). The TV set example.
https://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2014/01/06-income-gains-and-inequality-burtless
How very true.
FS is 100% correct on his post. People can lie
to others about y they r unsuccessful, but they shouldnt lie to themselves bc that only ensures continued failure. If u r unhappy with the amount of $ u make, u can change that. And if u decide not to, u have absolutely no one but urself to blame.
This ridiculous article about people being wimps if they don’t work more than 50-70 hours per week is part of what’s wrong with America. And I totally agree with the people reminding the author of this “article” that many of us have children. Being a workaholic and having children is not a very good way of life for anyone. And even if a person doesn’t have the responsibility of parenting, a 70 hour/week will get you into the grave QUICKLY!
Oh…and I love KDM’s post that points out that being a workaholic on a salaried job is just a dumb thing to do for so many reasons. There’s hard work, and then there’s just compulsion to over-work which is unhealthy.
I think people are being very unrealistic about how a more financially egalitarian system works. It doesn’t result in everyone becoming richer and richer and having everything they want and everyone “getting ahead” so to speak. It tends to be a situation where people have their basic needs met and in general people have the security of knowing they are not going to have to worry about extreme poverty, but in return people in general accept that being particularly well off is not something that is likely to happen for very many people. In general, people do tend to work less if the system is working well, but overall wages are not overly high and the emphasis is on the collective well being of the group in general and not on the individual having a lot. Finland is, in my opinion a great example of this. They make it work. Hours of work are limited and they put the emphasis on quality of life, but their idea of quality of life doesn’t seem to be the same thing that a lot of people here are thinking of. People seem to think that this approach will lead to them pocketing all that rich people money and riding happily off into the sunset. What it really seems to lead to is an emphasis on quality of life being the lower working hours and just accepting a lower income and less material possessions in return. Rich people aren’t stealing your work from you if you don’t want to do the work. Less productivity does not lead to more money and you can’t expect someone else to do the extra work and then you get to pocket the money they have earned.
It’s not the number of hours you work, but what you achieve during your work time. It is possible that you wouldn’t be able to accomplish “much” in 40 hours, but other people might, just as it is possible that, for whatever combination of reasons, other people don’t derive the same satisfaction out of their work that you seem to. This might surprise you, but not all lives and not all minds are the same. It might further stun you that there is in fact no definitive correct way and incorrect way when it comes to doing a good job.
75-80 hours of work is not necessary for many jobs. In my experiences (as manager in both software and finance projects), precious few of the people who work so many hours are legit overachievers, but most put in a lot of fluff, but don’t want to look inferior on paper, so they compete in the hours game, just as they compete in the compensation game. I hope that you are in the former group, since the latter are sad sacks indeed. But try to be honest with yourself and others. 40-60 is fine for most people who *want* to have work/life separation. No one is fooling me with a barrage of impressive numbers. It is *always* what lies behind the numbers. If you don’t believe this now, just give it time and you will learn.
I find this article very bizarre in terms of the accusatory tone of the article itself and the responses that the author has to people commenting.
If somebody chooses to work under 40 hours a week, that is their prerogative. If they wonder why they aren’t moving ahead, that is also their prerogative. To be honest, it’s not my business or anybody else’s.
I recently had a glimpse of my potential future that has made me re-evaluate the relationship that I have with my work. I have always worked full-time and freelanced and did a bunch of self-learning stuff since finishing school. Does it mean I’m happy? Certainly not. I love my work – I truly do. The industry is fascinating to me and having team pow wows is invigorating and exciting to me. In fact, I have always worked my ass off and became successful in the ways that I measure success.
But quite recently my partner’s mother has slipped into depression. This is a woman who worked her ass off her entire life. Harvard educated, founded her own micro-finance bank and became such a powerhouse that she’s been invited all around the world to lecture on microfinance. When she retired….all of the sudden she did not understand who she was anymore as she had always been defined by her work.
I’m not saying that everybody would end up like this. But it’s a very easy path to take and I could see myself going down that path. When I realized that I hadn’t seen friends in months, that I was foregoing simple pleasures like working out or cooking a meal to work and sleeping 4 hours a night (which is actually dangerous for me as I have a disorder) and my relationship was beginning to be strained.
Life isn’t about work. It’s great that you were able to retire early, but that’s not a reality for everybody and your post misses the whole concept of privilege. Poverty is cyclical and generational and while there will always be inspirational stories, those are the ones we hear and we don’t usually hear the stories of cyclical poverty because let’s face, they don’t make us feel good.
Like you, I grew up in a middle income family. Education was very accessible to me and I graduated with 0 student debt. I am in a fairly well paid industry and it is not difficult for me to find work, either in a company or freelance. But my partner? He’s a chef and he was offered a sous chef position in our city’s fanciest restaurant where a meal will cost you at least $200. Starting rate of pay? $14/hr – the statistics for the living rate in my city to be able to have a unimpoverished standard of living is $20/hr. Another friend? He works in the exact same industry as me. He is a refugee from a poor family and he worked his ass off to get an education. Compare this to our friend who is a white male doing the exact same job? He comes from a wealthy family, education was totally accessible and he’s making more money and they do literally the exact same job. It’s not as black and white as you make it seem because life is not black and white and neither are humans.
There are different reasons for everybody for why they work and what makes them happy. I used to judge people who working 40 hours, 8-5 for decades and just staying at the same job. To me, I thought it meant that they had no ambition. But then I saw how happy they are with their families and how I have no family where I am and I’ve lost many of my connections with my friends because I’m just working all the god damn time. Is it healthy? Am I happy? Will I be exactly like my partner’s mother when I retire? I don’t know. I’m glad that your relationship with your work works for you, but it doesn’t work for everybody else and that’s okay.
Amen to that!
I genuinely believe that the way you grew up has negatively affected the way you see the world. It’s quite unfortunate that you grew up in the conditions that are you did. I’m surprised none of the other commenters mentioned how your insecurities are projected through your writing.
Perhaps consulting with a psychologist can help you with some of these issues.
Yeah the tone of this post is a bit odd…seeing as FS is an Asian with his parents immigrating and moving around I can understand his mentality, as I have the same background.
It’s all hustle. Look at Hong Kong, Japan, Korea, work culture is deeply embedded and “losing face” because you don’t keep up with the boss and executives is real.
Work life balance is much more prevalent in Europe and parts of USA. I’m just surprised that him living in San Fran and Hawaii didn’t give him a more chilled lifestyle. Go catch some waves or chill by the beach dude.
I wanted to hustle early on because I knew I wouldn’t be able to last for my entire career in finance. Actually just got back from three weeks in Europe and am going to Hawaii for 10 days this Wednesday.
https://www.financialsamurai.com/vacation-money-is-crazy-money-staying-financially-disciplined-while-traveling/
https://www.financialsamurai.com/the-best-way-to-travel-for-free-and-lower-your-taxable-income/
Hey glad you were able to think that far ahead…glad to hear you are living it up.
As noted not everyone accomplishes the same amount in 40 hours. The guy I share a cube with regularly stays late, and comes in on weeknds but doesn’t seem to be completing things. I get my desk cleared daily or weekly and feel fine working my 40. I keep my expenses low & save so I will have flexibility later. *shrug*
Of course no one working 40 hours a week should expect to become a millionaire. At time I’ve really had to look hard and really push to even get 40 hours a week. some people want to be millionaires and if they do they need to work 100 hours a week. Professional athletes and other entertainers work more than 40 hours a week. There are other people who are not interested in being millionaires, they want to enjoy their families and enjoy life and not have to work all the time. They can’t expect to millionaires and they probably don’t want to. I ride the bus with someone whose hours were cut and she’s having a hard time. A couple of us have recommended she get another job with benefits but she won’t just complains. I believe that anyone who works 40 hours a week should not live in poverty. That person should be able to have the basic necessities of life.
Wow you hate labor/women/the poor/pretty much everyone. A 40 hour work week is totally inhumane. If you know anything at all about labor history (which you don’t — neoliberal financial types like you never do) the 40 hour work week was intended to be reduced, drastically. And it will be — the capitalist battle to appropriate all of time into oppressive working hours was lost the moment workers decided they have dignity.
Imagine a world where people like you no longer have control. People that hate people, whose gods are money and productivity. Your time is ending.
What I’m saying is: higher pay, less hours, and if it’s at the expense of productivity or the millionaire class I could NOT care less.
Daniel, I’ve joined the ranks of working less than 40 hours a week and paying less taxes and love it! No wonder why so many people complain about working more than 40 hours a week and not getting ahead.
It’s much better to work less, pay less, earn less and live life more! Oh, and I’ve also got more time to help other people.
I’m reformed! Hope you forgive me. But I will say, I don’t regret working more than 40 hours a week for 13 years in a row after college to be able to free. It was absolutely worth it. How about you?
Check out:
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I’m not sure your estimate of 35-42 hours of sleep a week is healthy for everyone. It averages out to about 5-6 hours a night, but the average amount of sleep most people need varies from 7.5 – 9 hours. Everyone’s different, though, so some people need less – like you – and others need more. There’s a lot of research out there on how sleep deprivation impacts your immune system, your memory, and your ability to function day to day, especially when driving a vehicle. There have been a few studies saying that sleep deprivation can impair your ability to drive just as badly as having a few drinks. Just some food for thought.
I once was working serving a group of smart people. One of the group along with a request that was being fulfilled and later exceeded bragged to me, as follows.
He said, “I work 200 hours a week.” Implying that I should too, especially on his thing. Rumor had it this person had a Ph.D. in a field that includes math.
200 [hours] divided by 7 [days] is greater than 28.5 [hours/day].
Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted everything, but I don’t think Sam was attacking people who DON’T work their every waking hour in this post, and I am kinda surprised at the hate he’s gotten (and the fact that seemingly no one’s picked up on this).
It seems like he is targeting the people who work 40 hours per week (which is the STANDARD American work week, even if it is an obscenely large amount of hours to work), vocally complain about either not being rich or not making more money than they currently do, and do NOTHING to further their situation. No putting in extra hours at work to increase your productivity and earn a raise and a promotion, no side hustles to earn extra cash on the side, no courses or classes to further their education, no nothing. As if just complaining about not making more will suddenly cause your paycheck to increase.
He isn’t complaining about the many people who ARE satisfied with their incomes; he’s talking about the people who expect to get rich by doing what unfortunately is the standard amount of work in this country (I do agree that 40 hours a week is a LOT if you are not absolutely in LOVE with what you do. I can barely survive 1 hour at my job). You don’t differentiate yourself by just doing the standard amount of work. That’s why I run a blog and a business on the side.
Though honestly, Sam, I would have left out the part about “playing golf with clients”. Sort of something not applicable to the rest of us. For me, dealing with customers is just a matter of trying to survive each interaction with my job and emotional well being still intact. Playing golf with clients and treating them to fancy steakhouse dinners on the company card is not exactly in my itinerary.
Sincerely,
ARB–Angry Retail Banker
Some people want to ACTUALLY MAKE DECENT LIVINGS AND, YOU KNOW… LIVE
Not *live to work*, esp. to the bone
Few people want to be in the office *all day*, ffs
Also… you’re seriously arguing against OT? In 2016…? Jesus…
Overtime is typically EXTRA HOURS, last I checked! Sure, some firm technically “require” employees to work “overtime”, but 40 is the established norm. 9 to 5 is well-enough. We need personal lives and leisure time, for god sake, too! If you sacrifice some of that extra time, you should be rewarded a bit more! Makes sense to me… but your robber-baron mindset can’t fathom that, for whatever reason.
You sound just like the kind of goofy boss who would SHIP JOBS OVERSEAS at the cost of THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES’ FUTURE LIVELIHOODS just to save a few hundred-million in profits in the short run, even though it probably wouldn’t matter in the long run, tbh. All to satisfy some d-bag, rich/semi-rich shareholders who care more about their portfolios than actual people who are hurt by bad business decisions.
Everything is rational. Your comment gives me confidence that everything is OK! I agree with you. If you don’t want to make more money, you don’t need to work as much. All about living a balanced and wonderful life.
You should check out the post: The Fear Of Running Out Of Retirement Is Completely Overblown
I retired from the workforce at age 34 in 2012 and could not be happier! Less taxes, less stress, more freedom, more happiness. Totally worth it!
Also check out: Spoiled Or Clueless? Try Working A Minimum Wage Job As An Adult
I lived in The US for 2 years and as an outsider I was really surprised to see how long middle-class Americans have to work to have a middle-class life.
I can say that although The US is also considered a developed country, Western European Countries are way ahead of The US in terms of their level of development. It is not just how much money you make or how much wealth you produce as a society, but it is also about how you share the wealth created.
It’s funny to see Americans have to work at 2 jobs to make ends meet while the Federal Government spends half of its disposable budget on the army creating more wars and misery for the world. It’s really sad to see students being have to work while attending college or seeing people being homeleaa because they could not handle their medicle bills. I think that there is more than enough wealth in the US, there is a problem with the way the wealth is shared.
Ah, but the income upside is HUGE in the US. Check out this janitor who makes $271,000 a year.
All anybody really wants in America is a correlation with effort and reward.
This article made me feel like a lazy bum lol. There are several lessons I can take from this article, for now I am going to try to convince myself that working 55 hours per week is the minimum I should be working. Thank you!
Take action my friend. 40 hours a week is so arbitrarily LOW if you want to make more money.
Check out this latest post: Abolish Welfare Mentality: A Janitor Makes $271,000 A Year, Why Can’t You?
Wow, lots of suckers out there. If you want to work 80 hours a week, be my guest. If you think you need to work 80 hours a week to be successful, you are doing it wrong. You said you are a “lowly analyst”, obviously you are going to work long hours. That industry eats their babies. Avoid finance and you can have a good work/ life balance. I studied math and physics, obtained a masters in physics, and chose my job wisely. I work 40 hours/ week at most with plenty of skiing and mountain biking. But, you probably have a boring life, so enjoy being a boring person and working just so you can retire and continue to be boring.
Greetings from 10 days in Lake Tahoe! The power is ridiculous now because we just got 8 feet of snow in the first week of January.
It is great you have found balance in your life and work. You are one of the lucky minorities.
But I will say that I don’t regret working 60-80 hours a week in my 20s and early 30s looking back on things now that I’m almost 40. In fact, I’m thankful I was able to work hard while I had the energy because it gets harder to sustain a good work ethic as you get older.
Retiring from corporate America at age 34 to pursue your hobbies isn’t for everybody. But for me, not a day goes by where I’m not thankful for not having to commute to work, deal with a micromanager, or play office politics any more. Being free to do whatever you want because of your passive income streams is priceless!
Related:
Financial Samurai 2016 Year In Review: Better Lucky Than Good
Financial Samurai 2017 Goals And Outlook
Go Tribe!
Hi,
You wrote that you had to get to work at 5:30 a.m. and you were expected to stay until at least 7:30 a.m. That’s only two hours. So why are you speaking against those who work only 40 hours a week. A person working 40 hours a week isn’t going to become rich and shouldn’t expect but he or she should not be in poverty. There are others ways to work where you don’t get a paycheck but it will save you money. I clean my house instead of hiring someone. I do my finances instead of hiring an accountant. I cook from scratch instead of going to a restaurant. I’ve grown vegetable gardens. I don’t do flower gardens–I only garden what I can eat. Other ways of working without a paycheck are making your own clothes or getting clothes at a thrift store and remodeling them. I have a 40-hour a week job and sometimes overtime and when OT is available I take advantage of it. I don’t whine and complain like many of my coworkers. I have never cared for working for someone, although I do. I have a lot of DIY projects because I like cooking and crafts. I’d rather do that then go to work to pay someone to do the work I enjoy doing.
7:30PM. Typo.
People are free to do whatever they want. All is good!
Most people do not want to work over 40 hours as they would rather be out socializing or relaxing. I can work an additional 100 hours of overtime a month. Overtime at my office is available all of the time. Most people just choose not to do it. I have been working the additional hours and using the money to max out my 401K each year and contribute to a 529 plan. I also use it to pay for private school tuition for my two children. If you add up all of the overtime worked over the past years it is well over $400,000. There are people at work who never work overtime and live paycheck to paycheck. They do not have any savings, do not contribute to a 401K plan and do not own a house. I sit at my desk listening to them complain about how they cannot afford to take a trip to Italy this year or how their rent has increased. The extra overtime has helped us to put aside money to purchase a home with a 20% down payment. Our home has already appreciated by over 30%. It takes away from some family time and sleep, but it has made a difference in the way we are able to provide for our children. I do not intend to keep working so much overtime in the future, but just long enough to where he have a substantial amount saved for retirement.
I hope this is satire. Otherwise, you seem like a good brainwashed American that thinks that we should get paid like shit while being more productive and making CEOs more money than 30 years ago…
The US’s GDP is comparable to China’s, whose workforce is four times the size of ours and runs off of communist culture. That’s how insanely underpaid we are. China’s GDP should be greater than the US’s, yet the US government has consistently supported business priveledges to allow for increased income inequality and poverty.
Get off the workhorse mentality, it’s not the 1940s. Join a union and demand higher pay, CEOs don’t need all of that money to not invest in the workforce or expand the company.
It definitely is a little funny that there are people who complain why they can’t get ahead even though they work less than 40 hours a week. But in a land as easy, rich, and comfortable as ours, it’s understandable why many of us would rather just kick back. But that’s the opportunity given to those of us who are willing to try harder!
We tend to get soft the richer we get, which is why you haven’t seen so much innovation out of Europe compared to the US. They got a head start, and I think the US will just turn into Europe over the next 50 years.
See: Abolish Welfare Mentality: A Janitor Makes $271,000 A Year
“The US’s GDP is comparable to China’s, whose workforce is four times the size of ours and runs off of communist culture. That’s how insanely underpaid we are. China’s GDP should be greater than the US’s, yet the US government has consistently supported business priveledges to allow for increased income inequality and poverty.”
Using China as an example to highlight the plight of the American worker is absolutely hilarious. A clever satire of stereotypical American ignorance?
Some quick facts:
– China’s average annual wage was $8,655 in 2014.
– 387 million rural workers (about half the working population) earn about $2,000 a year.
– China doesn’t meet international labor law standards, so workers rights to join trade unions and collectively bargain are quite restricted.
Sure American workers have their problems, but China is actually a great example of how great American workers have it compared to most of the world.
Yes, there are. But I find complaining has only benefited me, when dome in the right manner. If you present your accomplishments and ask for more money, you might be able to get more even if you only work 40 hours per week. Most extra hours are of marginal productivity anyway, studies have shown. Any work I have done after 5pm usually looks like that of a drunken sailor, yet I was completely sober at the time.
And it sounds like if I worked for you, that I’d be happy to leave for your competitor. If you’re that obsessed with success and money that it consumes your every waking thought, then that’s cool if that’s your thing. Other people have lives and are busy with shit that matters. If you want to label me a lazy sack of shit because I want to eat dinner with my family, play with my son, read him books at bedtime, and spend the evening with my wife, then I’ll happily wear that label. I’ve heard many times that the #1 regret of some people at the end of life is having worked too much.
I understand that if people want to bitch about their circumstances then by all means they should get off their ass and do something about it. However from the tone of this post it sounds like you need to find other forms of happiness in life. I hope you find it.
Not sure where you see that I’ve labeled you as a lazy sack of shit. Where do you see this, and why so much anger?
I’m highlighting folks who want to get ahead, but who aren’t willing to do the work. If you’re happy with where you are, why does this bother you at all? I don’t get it.
I retired at 34 in 2012 after putting in the grind and couldn’t be happier. Hard work is worth it, especially since it takes no skill.
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Sam, although I agree with you that people should not complain for not getting ahead while they do not want put in more time than others, working more than 40 hours a week is a mediocre, sometimes even bad strategy to get ahead.
Productivity aside, people can put lots of hours in something mundane and repetitive, not learning any new skills, eventually their jobs got automated. These are not just truck driving or manufacturing jobs, most parts of your old colleagues’ jobs at Goldman will probably disappear very soon as well. Even executives in Wall street lose jobs for not being able to adapt to new technologies.
For some people, the only way to get out of poverty is education, you can put many hours at a minimum wage job, impress your boss by hard work, get promoted, and make an extra 5 dollars an hour. Or you can spend time to attend community college or coding bootcamps, then make an extra 20 dollars/hour when switching to a new field. Sadly, many Americans don’t have the time of money to learn new skills once they are out of college. They are stuck in their demanding jobs day after day and are too tired to look at the big picture. Years later, they suddenly find their jobs are being taken away by robots.
This entire idea of “american dream” need to change with the current advance of technology, “working hard” is not as important anymore. Learning in-demand skills is the new key factor of a high income. On a personal level, it means spending less time in your corporation job, and spending more time on learning. On a public policy level, you don’t want an entire country of hard-working but low-skilled workers who will soon become jobless because of automation.
There’s another advantage of spending time on acquiring new skills: you can easily jump to a better work environment when you are not happy at your current role, making the time before financial independence much more tolerable, sometimes even enjoyable.
Optimizing income/hour is far more efficient and happier than optimizing total income imo. The extra time you spend on work only benefits the employer, but the time you spent learning benefit both yourself and your employer in the long run.
I’ve been reading your blog for a long time, and while I believe working hard is a good idea, I believe you are a workaholic.
You could be right. Was there any catalyst for why you decided to read this post that serval years old now?
But I don’t think I’m really that much of a workaholic anymore, or lease for the past five years. I average about 25 hours a week since I left corporate America.
Just wanna say I recently discovered your site and it is incredible! I feel that early financial freedom will be easy (I’m an undergrad now) just looking at the wealth of resources here.
My thoughts on this: No one should be complaining about this article. It’s just common sense.
The two prerequisites mentioned were (1) You work less than 40 hrs/week and (2) You are financially unhappy.
Either you can just find a way to work more hours (and not just at your full-time job) or you can try to change the government or workplace system in your favor. If you live in the US, the government option is laughable, and it’s much easier to change things yourself than to rely heavily on others.
Personally, I’m really excited to be doing ~80 hrs/week outside of class. It helps if you’re challenged and care about what you’re doing!
“No one should”, should is a generalization. You will find that generalizations often do not fit the real world. It is also considered a fallacy of logic.
I found working 60-80 hours a week took a lot of interest away from something I loved and was good at. It was never the same afterwards.
“We’ve got an immigrant janitor here in San Francisco who makes $271,000 a year due to working tons of overtime. He’s not alone either! His elevator/escalator technician makes $284,000 a year due to working way more than 40 hours a week as well.”
OK,These guys are working double the normal amount. Instead of 8 hours per day, they are working 16 hours per day. They are earning far more than the normal amount. So, by this logic, it means that the immigrant janitor is paid more than 11,000 dollars per month for a normal 8 hours per day schedule? Meanwhile 50% of America lives with 3000 dollars top per month?
Does anybody realise the lunacy of this post?
Why is it lunacy to take advantage of opportunity while its there? Do you think he’s really working 16 hours non stop? There are peaks and valleys in terms of traffic periods throughout the day.
Point is which company would pay janitors and elevator technician that much. If that janitor works 40 hours a week, they’d get paid $135,500 a year.
I think this is very short sighted post.
Ya’ll think 40 hours a week manuel labor isn’t hard? Maybe sitting at a desk isn’t hard. Which is why you can do it for 60+.
The problem in this country is inflation and our crony politicians.
Until these things change, I will complain it IS unfair. Companies don’t respect the employees.
I don’t get govt. Assistance nor do I want to. Even if I need it. Their are people who need it more.
It is a cycle they(the Rich, Elite) keep the poor in.
Or do you really think the poor are happy where they are and stuck in their ways? I’m sure it is easier to believe that than actually finding out individuals problems.
If you have a marketable skill that doesn’t always guarantee employment.
working this 40 hour a week job as a cube rat is the reason i’ll end up blowing my head off
I think that how fulfilling a job is significantly impacts how hard/tiring it is to work. I’m by no means a slacker; in school I worked a part time job and took extra courses that I didn’t need to and achieved high grades (I know others do more but what I accomplished still isn’t nothing). I was tired but I definitely worked (including classwork as work) well over 40 hours a week and sometimes felt burned out but I could always push through it, because I was learning about things that interested me, that I thought I could apply in ways that would make life better for me and others, and I thought that my education would help me get a job that I’d find equally fulfilling.
Now, as a college graduate working a 40-hour week job marketing a product that I feel has very little value, by creating very low-traffic marketing content, for a company that knows their marketing is mediocre at best (based on analytics, not just my opinion) but has no desire to try new approaches or change existing ones, I find that I’m exhausted even before the end of my 8-hour days. Now, of course I’m looking for work elsewhere, and I never would have accepted this job in the first place if I hadn’t been a recent graduate who needed experience-any experience-, but I did need experience and I did need a job so as much as I hate mine I feel I made the right choice to take it. I’m sure other people, especially those who, unlike me, have dependents, need to accept jobs that aren’t ideal sometimes. In those cases, someone may feel like the hours seem extraordinary even if they aren’t, not because they’re a slacker, but because they hate their job. And yes, if they really need the job they should do their best at it, but that doesn’t erase the fact that doing so is extremely tiring if the job is a poor fit.
Especially if someone was a high achiever in school, not just in terms of grades because grades don’t always reflect effort, but in terms of effort, then not being able to find an employer who does meaningful work that wants to hire you can be genuinely depressing. I’ve been genuinely depressed for awhile now at this job, even when I’m not at work, because it depresses me that that the only company that saw my value has very little value to me. In school, you’re always working towards expanding your potential. Afterwards, if you work somewhere meaningless, it feels like “Where did my potential go?” “Was it ever there in the first place?”. Depressed people have no energy.
Sorry if this post comes across as aggressive. I’m not mad at you, just my situation right now.
This is a nice article, but it’s very much from an American point of view, where taxes are low and working harder pays off. In my country, The Netherlands, the marginal tax rate is so high, there is absolutely no point in working more or additional hours. For every additional Euro I earn, I have to pay close to 58% of taxes on it. I also have to pay 10% on additional pension premiums for that extra Euro. So my net gain for working longer / earning more is around a paltry 32 cents on the Euro. So there is no way I am going to work harder, take more responsibility or try to make a career, because there is no point. Others benefit the most from my additional work, so that’s not at all motivating for me. Instead, I work parttime and focus more on my trading / building up capital. Because despite of our high wage taxes, capital taxes here are very friendly. We only pay a small wealth tax of around 1,2% on our capital. We don’t have capital gain taxes or interest rate taxes. Dividends are taxed, but can be reclaimed for Dutch firms, so the effective rate is 0%. Taxes withheld on foreign investments can be subtracted from our wealth tax as well.
I have concluded that working hard doesn’t make you rich at all. At least not in this country, where the lowest tax rate starts at 36%, which I believe is already highter than the top rate in the US. Therefore, it’s no coincidence that we have some of the lowest average working hours in the world. Also see https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/06/which-european-countries-work-the-longest-hours/
Not trying to debunk your article, just wanted to share a point of view from a different perspective.
Willem, I appreciate your point of view from a country with extremely high tax rates. I work overtime hours here in the US because I get paid generously to do so at my current job. I work about 44-52 hours a week and everyone says to me “Why work more, you will just be taxed more?” No, the tax is the same no matter what I work, so why not make more money? This year I will be thrown into the higher tax bracket cause I will make over 6 figures, but the higher tax bracket is only 3%, so no big deal. I would rather make over a 100K and take home over 70K than make 70K and only take home 45K. I also live in an area that is lower cost of living, so I can put money aside for travel and saving up for a house. I couldn’t imagine working in Europe with outrageous taxes and high cost of living.
I remember back when I worked jobs that paid hourly, I would routinely pick up hours for people who didn’t want to work them.
And then those same people would complain that their check was too small, or worse yet, that they weren’t getting any hours!
It’s true that sometimes you have to work harder and smarter but not nessesarily longer hours. I believe person should love what it does. If one find what he/she enjoys I believe it’s obvious that working extra time for your own business is very smart thing to do. Most people get jobs to pay bills, but not necessary like them. The people you have talked here about obviously found that they don’t enjoy their jobs, they probably not sure what they would like to do and still in the search. Working longer hours leads to exhaustion and burn out, especcially if one not sure that it’s the job he/she wants to do for life. Person can be more productive working fewer hours and having longer rests in fact. Also, everyone if different, not everyone has your energy to work 80 hours a week. So you shoudn’t judge everyone so subjectively or emply they others that don’t work as long are lazy. Most of the time, my hard work for someone else wasn’t seen and appreciated. In fact most companies just want to exploit and squizee every bit of juice out of you and give as little salary in return, maxiizing company’s profits. It’s esspecially true to starting jobs, they are brutal, discoraging and demorilizing. Perhaps if you grew to be a great specialist in your field and compaies wants you, you can pull your wait in discussing your schedule and salary, but it takes years to get there, no wonder so many people you mentioned feel the strugle with situations they are in. I agree that you should start somewhere but I don’t think you should be exploited and disrespected in the process. I have seen it a lot when companies are run by older old school managers. How many people like their bosses? How many people want to have a boss today? I preffer to be my own boss. It’s a new world now, and It’s time for a change. Making your hobby a job and income earner is a true luck and everyone should strive to find it. Therefore, putting extra work toward building your own business in the spare time would be smart thing to do, but not sitting longer hours in the corporate chair gets you places.
I should add, that people live to enjoy their lives and not to work to the 7th sweat. So, they should spend more time to enjoy their lives than at work. I believe 40 hours of work is too much. Time with family, friends, loved ones and children is the most pressious, it’s a shame to waste it on corporations for a qestionable pay.
Also having less than 8 hours of sleep (personally for me), or what ever is enough for each individual, leads to dementia among other disease. You recommend working yourself to the grave. For me, health is more important than wealth. It’s healthy physically or emotionally have good leisure-work balance.
My goal is to help people find ways to monetize the things they enjoy doing.
Working 40 hours a week means you’re watching the clock.
We need to focus our energy on the things that make us long for the clock to slow down so we could have more time to work.
No one watched the clock any more. It must be passe.
When was the last time you counted how many people wear wristwatches?
Good luck trying to do that 80 hour workweek and keeping your family sane. One of the two of you is going to have to cut back working hours when you have kids. Or you’ll end up paying through the nose in alimony and child support when your wife kicks you out since she is doing a full time job plus taking care of everything for the kid(s) – daycare usually closes at 6 PM, and nannies cost nearly 3-5 times what daycare costs (we pay $300 / week, and that’s cheap for our area). If you already aren’t wealthy, you cannot afford the cost of a nanny, especially if you follow the law and pay payroll taxes. Your strategy of “just get a job where working longer hours pays more, and start a little website on the side” only works when you don’t have *responsibilities* above and beyond your only little selfish world. Taking risks is good, but guess what – your risk profile changes when there is an infant in the mix.
Not to mention that after having kids comes major health problems as a result of pregnancy for *many* women. Some people are not blessed with perfect health. Good luck actually getting any assistance from either the private insurance company (who you PAID FOR YEARS IN CASE OF THIS EVENTUALITY) or the gov’t (who only cares about protected classes of people).
Fundamentally your arguments lie on a neoliberal premise that the only reason you aren’t getting ahead is because you are ‘complaining’ and ‘not working enough’. Open your eyes – I’ve seen posts of yours before where you note that life isn’t fair. Saying “just work more hours” and ignoring any of the actual *reasons* people can’t is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Either life isn’t fair and these folks actually are struggling, or else life is fair and they should just ‘work longer’
Good stuff!
I think you’ll enjoy these two latest posts:
Why You Must Make $300,000 A Year To Live A Middle Class Lifestyle Today
A Day In The Life Of Two Stay At Home Parents Who Also Work
It is hard, very hard to get ahead and raise a family in an expensive city today. It’s partially why so many people are leaving the coasts.
But what is the alternative if you choose to stay? The only alternative is to increase productivity, take more risks, and work longer until you can’t take it anymore.
Every situation is unique so it does depend. However, when you got the time to work yet do nothing about it for 3 years making what equates to working 25 hours of work a week yet barely make ends meet you really need a wake up call. I know someone like that and it is baffling. But I can understand, it becomes a habit to want to sit around at home and relax but there are priorities in life that need to be met first.
There was a video on Burgerville workers who talked about not getting by yet were working 26 hours a week (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Jq7V-SstU). Sure, if you are fine with the life you have, 26 hours can be great. But if you are struggling to get by, another avenue of income needs to taken or live with roommates or parents. As it stands, the only way you can get 30% of housing expenses is by living with another person. A single person would be spending at least 60% if not 70% if renting alone.
Keep up the good work!
You can never get any time back. So, time is not money. Time is worth more than money.
How much more?
Kinda sucks not gunna say where I work but they try to keep everyone part time with everyone max of 35 hours I work at a grocery store not gunna say where but I needed extra time to get my truck done I’m a stocker so it would have benefited if were ever over by 5 minutes it’s a huge deal because of corporate it’s crazy and you want full time you have to works there for years like 20 plus and take all these tests to be full time and I work in a freaking grocery store nothing that serious a grocery store lol would love the extra hours but your just not allowed they put a sheet up with everyone’s name near the clock out saying how much there over I was over by 2 minutes 2! God forbid I worked two extra minutes for that 1 cent haha crazy but it is how it is
I am sure someone has already noted this, but working a higher number hours of week, especially over long periods of time, is associated with a wide variety of health conditions. You are significantly more likely to die past a certain number of hours. I imagine the financial benefits don’t pan out when you consider the brevity of your life, as well as the debt you’ll likely be in as a part of the health care system we have.
Plus, beyond making a certain amount, working anymore Seriously retracts from your well-being. If you are not making enough to be anywhere close to that amount, you may find it actually costs you money to work more (babysitter, daycare), not even considering the emotional consequences of constantly having your children with sitters.
I think this post is a bit short-sighted and definitely reflects American values such as the glorification of the pursuit of busyness and money, as well as thinking that everyone fending for themselves will result in greater success if they just try harder…. without considering the many other circumstances of their lives…
This is not to say working extended hours short-term couldn’t be of benefit. Personally, I’ve found I’ve regretted the years i basically spent just working and sleeping. Didn’t get me anywhere in comparison to an overall shift in values and financial education.
Found this article after some disconnect with my sister- I work at a franchise my boyfriend owns. We work 60-70 hours a week and never ever have weekends off. She gets upset with me when I choose being with our staff on our busiest day over a party at her place 2 hours away. She hates that she works 40 hours a week now instead of 30 (she didn’t make enough working just 30) and doesnt understand how I like working hard. I was hoping to find a way to express to her that this is important to me and I like working but instead I just found others sharing in my frustration!
‘The only difference between successful people and those who aren’t is the willingness to work very, very hard.’
although Sam leaves out a TON of ways working more hours, hustling more, drive, ambition, asking for more responsibility, etc, still leads to jack squat for most people, i get his point.
Here’s my life…i’ve only earned more than $45k a one-handful of years. most have been at about the $35k level. Why?…i’ve never given a damn about money, success, status, etc AND i’ve always been extremely cheap. Hell, i’ve probably spent more on shots at bars with my buddies than any stuff i’ve purchased. (and totally worth it! good stories to share with old friends when we get together).
Yet at 43 yrs old, I’ve still managed to I have a house to myself, a mortgage of only $400, and ZERO other debts. Hell, i could get a roommate and pay for ALL of my housing cost.
Could I have earned more in life? Sure. Have I avoided promotions and more responsibility at various jobs because i wasn’t interested in putting in the effort? Sure. Could I have side hustled at times to make more money? Sure. But I choose NOT to do these things. Unless you do something profoundly meaningful and special at your job (which, lets be honest, most don’t) work is stupid, pointless, and only serves to make someone else richer.
I chose the lifestyle i wanted (easy going, low stress, inexpensive living) and that’s given me the freedom to walk away from any job any time i want and not lose a minutes sleep over it. Yet i still have very affordable housing, IRA, 401k, HSA, and other investments.
My point is…i don’t complain because I chose the lifestyle i wanted and then found jobs that provide for it…not the max amt of money i could possibly make.
1 major caveat to my story though…i don’t have kids….the single LARGEST drain on one’s income there is.
If you want to work your life away go ahead. Not me. There are better ways my friend. I believe in work but I have discovered ways to earn an honest living in less time than the average American. I suggest you read the 4 hour work week by Tim Farris. God bless you.
40 hours is an average work week, in my opinion… Personally, I do not want to work less than 40 per week. I don’t want to miss out on actual life and health by being a workaholic either… And aside from the “day job” (a career that I really enjoyed when I was working), I do other creative work at times. It is not really a money maker at this point, but I enjoy the process and improving at it. I’ve tried to market that work and make it a little more profitable. Not my strength area, I must admit. It is harder to market ones own work for some reason. I’ve nearly almost worked full time (40 hours) and occasionally signed up for overtime. Once though, I worked in a mandatory OT place. That was not good. I was never alert, never felt healthy. That was 65 on an easy week, often more, for nearly a year, walking, lifting, etc. Even working at a desk, some days after 8 maybe 9 hours? You hit a wall and are not as productive. Though some days you really get involved in something and easily knock out 10 or more hours… or there’s a deadline to meet.
Someone did mention kids. What about cooking, cleaning, yard work, etc? Is that not also work? It does consume time. I could see 40 hours plus a lot of housework being a reasonable limit. I’d prefer to work 40 on average in my daytime role- with willingness to put in extra time here and there when needed. I feel that if my workflows are efficient and I do not do redundant work? A normal day should be accomplishable in 8 hours, and occasionally a little extra required for events, and other as needed work.
I am interested in how some of you are able to make the “internet business” work. Not long ago I had a great job that was aligned perfectly with my career goals, but the company was always short on funds. I was hired for a full time job, then my hours scaled back to 32 a week after only 3 months- meaning my health insurance cut and also income cut.. I tried to start a “side hustle” to make it through that time. The potential clients were willing to pay less than my materials cost. Within two months though, I was back to full time hours. Until another year or so. Then again, I was not. I was first offered to keep the position on a very part time basis (10-15 hours/week no benefits). That wouldn’t pay my bills, was simply not going to balance with a second full time role and I was up front about my intention to attempt to find a 30-35 hour position or flex time position, but that if I found a full time I’d have to take it. Came in expecting to start my part time schedule one day and? Position eliminated. AND- my attempt to start the side hustle was still online and known about, so I looked like a “flight risk” candidate who would work for maybe a year until I could go it alone. Not at all the case- but there were 50 other candidates WITHOUT a web site. I did find a very short term position. Then a role that was ok but not my ideal role, but was with a great group of people- the salary was just a liiitttle under my break even, and I took a second RELAVENT job for a bit. Which is a doozy to explain to those who are accustomed to full-time roles at more established companies where a second job is not feasible or even allowed. long story short that great group company was also tight on funding and I was downsized.
THEN the unemployment. The UNSHAKABLE unemployment.
I’d collected for 1-2 weeks before, during transitions. “I’ll find something soon” I thought. But maybe I’ll try alternate work as well- found some business leads online, took a stab at it, but the leads did not get results. The company/person offering them got secretive when one lead did get a spark of interest. I didn’t have more money to invest in advertising, dropped it, continued to search even harder for regular work…. I’d intended to maybe find a new job and maintain a very small side workload. Started to notice comments online about my “fictitious business” (not a success, but a genuine effort) and my job search was slower than any time before…. And? I’ve applied to nearly 500 positions in the past 8 months.
I’ve been getting interviews, more recently than at first… about 40 of them. But no offer. All feedback is pretty positive, always “hard choice. we found that perfect fit. filled internally. underqualified. overqualified. good luck”. I’ve widened my commute range, widened my search to include other roles, and considered unrelated and temp work. I found a very short term project. That ended. Have done some volunteering. And keep trying. ugh. I HATE being in financial doldrums. And I LOATHE not working. I spend usually 7-10 hours a day sending out applications/interviewing. Never before has it taken me more than 3 or 4 interviews to land something. Interviews used to be “what are your skills, what can you do for us, how would you…”. But now, I’m getting almost 3 or 4 a week, and they are about “so why did you take that job, why did you leave that job, why would you want THIS job… ummmm we will let you know”
Thank you for the motivation to take another stab at independent home based work. Any ideas? I don’t want to partner with any of these online “business opportunities”, just to figure out what I can provide with my own time, intellect, and skills and how to find the people who will pay for the service. I do NOT have funds to invest in a franchise or “coaching” or merchandise. I am hungry and I need to pay bills. Ideally would be something that I can maintain for a few hours a week on top of a 40 or so hour day job when I find one. This pecking away, then driving and meeting and waiting for zero income while spending on gas money is the pits!
I think it depends personally I think if you do too much your work level suffers. I had an ex boyfriend who would call me lazy because I was only working 40 hours a week and worrying about out relationship. I was working a rotational job that would looked good on my resume at my company. I got the rotation because I worked hard last job. In the harder job I found there was such thing as to much. He worked twice as much as me and only made six thousand more I am not sure who was the stupid one it wasn’t me.
I actually am working on some educational stuff to me up. But honestly working 80 hours a week isn’t work to to me I want a family. I made 54k this year that’s not a bad salary and it’s great for family life.
I do want to move up make some more and I am working towards that but not 80 hours not worth it.
I work 40 hours per week. Sometimes as much as 41 hours per week. I have an IT job, work at home, and I make about $78,000 / year.
To all the people who say they’re working 60+ hours, I don’t know what you’re doing but it really sounds like you’re just bending over for your employers. That kind of time spent on a normal basis is completely unreasonable.
I’ve talked to someone who worked 60 hour weeks for several years. They said that looking back now it was a bad idea. Nobody actually appreciated their hard work enough and they regret every day of it.
Yes, it is possible to earn a good living and not work horrendous amounts of unpaid overtime.
They could be working 20 hours a week on their side hustle in order to build passive income to retire earlier.
MOST people, not some, MOST people work to pay their rent. They work to pay their bills, feed their children, and survive. That’s most people. So most people aren’t working to fulfill their financial dreams. They’re just simply not. That’s the world we live in today. That not getting anywhere is not complaints made of life treating them badly. It’s probably more attributed to the fact that they are too deep to get out of their situation.
i dont know why but ever since I started doing 6 – 7 day weeks on 4 – 7 hours of sleep maximum a night my lifes been changing around. I feel like my hard work is paying off. companies are contacting me after they find my resume on indeed even if im not applying directly. I only work in security. but the fact that I feel like the last several years of struggle is paying off and now moderately okay employers are seeking me out is an amazing feeling.
Good to know the solution to making a barely stable living is to be a wage slave. We do more than double the work of previous generations thanks to computational tech, yet get compensated the same or less. The rich don’t work more, they just have a monopoly on production, and use that monopoly to steal more from the working class (you know, the people who ACTUALLY work for a living).
If you’re thinking “well I hustle more than everyone else, and that’s why I’m financially secure,” it’s not and you’re wrong. Even the highest caliber of experts can’t focus for more than 4 hours on a cognitively demanding job; that’s not a personal or moral failing, it’s a biological hard limit. Go read “Deep Work” by Cal Newport. Everything after 4 hours is low-value work, so I sincerely disbelieve any sentiment that claims financial security is strongly correlated with work ethic. The only way to get ahead is by owning things – either charging rent, or taking the excess value of your employees and compensating them with a fraction of that value.
Thoughts on taking action to own things?
Related: https://www.financialsamurai.com/to-get-ahead-choose-production-over-talent-every-single-time/