Let me tell you a sad story. In order to comfortably raise a family in an expensive coastal city like San Francisco or New York, you’ve got to make at least $300,000 a year. You can certainly raise a family earning less as many do, but it won’t be easy if your goal is to save for retirement, save for your child’s education, own your own home instead of rent, and actually retire by a reasonable age.
Although $300,000 is a lot compared to the median household income in the United States of ~$59,000, it’s not an outrageous sum of money once you look at the realistic income statement I’ve put together for this post. All expenses in my example use current prices. I’ve also cross checked the expenses with my family’s monthly expenses now that we have a son to make sure they are within reason.
I use $300,000 in this post because I also believe it is the ideal income for up to a family of four to experience maximum happiness. At $300,000, you aren’t paying an egregious amount in taxes, you probably aren’t killing yourself at work if both parents are working, but you’re still earning enough to live a comfortable lifestyle anywhere in the world.
Half the US population lives on the coasts, therefore, this post is directly targeted at folks who need to live on the coasts because of their jobs, schools, or families. $300,000 is a nice household income to shoot for, but not much more, if you are a coastal city resident who makes less.
Finally, this post should also provide insights to non-coastal city residents on how good you’ve got it if you enjoy living where you are. $100,000 – $150,000 is a rough non-coastal city household income equivalent.
Who Makes $300,000 A Year?
Before we look at the income statement, I’d like to go through a list of various workers who will eventually make ~$300,000 on their own or in household income if they find someone who also works.
* A Bay Area Rapid Transit janitor made $234,000 + $36,000 in benefits in 2016
* A Bay Area Rapid Transit elevator technician made $235,814 + $48,429 in benefits in 2016
* Starting salaries for 22 year old employees at Facebook, Google, and Apple range from ($80,000 – $120,000) + ($10,000 – $50,000) in annual equity grants.
* 30 year old first year Associate in banking earns $150,000 in base salary + ($0 – $120,000) in bonus
* A 26 year old Airbnb employee shared he got a $250,000 total compensation package back in 2015
* A 26 year old first year law associate at a firm like Cravath make $180,000 base + $20,000 sign on bonus. By the end of their 6th year they are making over $300,000
* A 29 year old Director of Marketing at a startup makes between $120,000 – $180,000
* A personal finance blogger with 500,000 pageviews earns between $150,000 – $600,000
* A 42 year old college professor at Berkeley makes $235,000 on average and $279,000 at Columbia and NYU
* The average specialist doctor finishing his or her fellowship at 32 makes $300,000. The average salary for a primary care physician is $200,000
* A 26 year old middle school teacher making $55,000 a year plus her $250,000 a year VP of Marketing wife
* A 56 year old high school athletic director making $100,000 a year plus his $200,000 a year management consultant husband
The permutations of people making $300,000 goes on and on. For many professionals, if they aren’t there now, they will get to such a level of income eventually if they team up.
Living A Middle Class Lifestyle On $300,000 A Year
Please study this chart closely. Every expense has been carefully vetted by dozens of people who live in expensive metropolitan areas like NYC, LA, and SF and diligently track their cash flow to give you the most realistic budget possible.
Gross Income Review
This dual income household puts away the maximum $18,500 a year each in their respective 401(k)s. With the passage of new tax laws in 2018, they’ve lost their ability to deduct more than $10,000 worth of state income, sales, and property taxes. As a result, I’ve used the new $24,000 standard deduction for married couples to keep things simple.
For 2018, the FICA tax rate for employers is 7.65% — 6.2% for OASDI and 1.45% for HI. An employee will pay a 6.2% Social Security tax on the first $128,700 of wages (maximum tax is $7,960.80 [6.2% of $128,400]), plus. Since both parents work, both parents pay the tax. At least both parents eventually gain when they collect Social Security.
They have a marginal federal income tax rate of 24%, a marginal California income tax rate of 9%, and most of their income facing a 7.65% FICA tax since both work. Their combined effective tax rate is roughly 32%, for a tax bill of ~$76,480. Yes, their total tax bill is ~$17,000 more a year than today’s median household income, so hopefully folks who earn less can give them some slack.
What’s nice about 2018 and beyond is that this family now gets a $2,000 child tax credit. In the past, the credit began to disappear for married couples who earned more than $110,000 and for single filers with AGI above $75,000. Now, singles and married couples can earn up to $200,000 and $400,000 respectively, before their child tax credit begins to disappear.
Child tax credit income thresholds have risen
Bottom line: their $300,000 gross income gets reduced by roughly 38% after taxes and retirement contributions.
Expenses Review
Childcare ($24,000): There’s no getting around this expense if both parents are working. Babysitting and childcare for $20/hour is the standard rate I’ve found in San Francisco. I know some families who only pay $10/hour because they are co-sharing the sitter with another family. Either way, childcare for a baby/toddler before they attend first grade costs between $17 – $40 / hour in a big city.
If the parents decide to send their child to private school, this $24,000 annual expense will continue. It’s a shame that so many expensive coastal cities have troubled public school systems. In San Francisco, there’s a lottery system for the sake of social engineering. In other words, even if you buy a $1.5M median home and pay $20,000 a year in property tax, you are not guaranteed to have your kid get into the public school down the street.
Of course, if you have a second kid, childcare expenses will increase, but probably not double due to synergies.
Food ($25,200): When you are a dual job household with a baby, there’s little time to cook. Further, given the family is living in a city like New York or San Francisco, food is world class, and on demand food delivery is ubiquitous. It makes little sense to spend hours cooking when you’re already tired and want to reserve your remaining energy for taking care of your baby. However, food is where this family can cut expenses if they start feeling a little tight.
Mortgage ($46,800): Although the payment is $3,900 a month for a $900,000 mortgage at 3.25%, $2,000 of it goes towards paying down principal and building net worth. Therefore, you can add $24,000 a year in forced savings to their $37,000 a year in 401(k) savings.
Their $1.5M assessed house is a standard 2,000 sqft, three bedroom, two bathroom home on a 3,000 sqft lot. For new homebuyers, only interest on up to a $750,000 is taxable. Here’s an example of a typical ~$1.5M home in San Francisco that recently sold. If you think this is living large, you’re nuts.
The $10,000 SALT cap deduction for individuals and married couples really hurts homeowners in expensive real estate markets. Property tax on a $1.5M assessed house alone is roughly $19,200. Then the couple is paying ~$18,000 in state income taxes.
Further, this couple is lucky because they bought their home several years ago for $1.2M. Now imagine renting a house for $6,000 a month and trying to save up $300,000 for a downpayment on a median priced home. Difficult to do with less than a $300,000 household income. Probably impossible without living in a one bedroom for “only” $3,200 a month or getting help from their parents.
After getting some real mortgage quotes online, mortgage interest rates are now reaching five year highs while property prices are also at five year highs. The new home buyer is therefore getting squeezed.
Mortgage rates are on the rise again
Vacation ($7,800): Some will say that spending three weeks of vacation is a luxury, but I say spending three weeks of vacation is normal for two working parents who want to keep their sanity.When I left my job in banking at age 34, I had been taking six weeks of vacation each year for three consecutive years and I took every day I was allowed off. Three weeks had felt too little for me. By law, every country in the EU has at least four weeks of paid vacation days. Meanwhile, Brazil gets 41 paid vacations days a year. Yes, their respective economies might be a mess compared to ours, but at least they are enjoying life!
Car Payment ($7,400): When you have a baby, all you want to do is protect him or her from harm. Even if you are the best driver in the world, one reckless drunk driver might t-bone you one evening. No longer do you feel comfortable driving a compact city car while transporting your family. Instead, you want a larger vehicle that has the highest safety rating.
$349,000 in SF and $418,000 in NYC
Baby/Toddler Things ($6,000): You can spend as little or as much as you want on your baby. But this family buys disposable diapers, not washable diapers, tons of baby proofing material, lots of toys, the best car seat, and two strollers. It’s funny, but one of the best toys for our son is a tissue box.
Entertainment ($7,200): Date night can easily cost $200+ an outing for two once you include tickets to a ball game or a show and transportation. Entertainment also includes the cost of sporting equipment, memberships, Netflix, cable, internet, and more. If your friends invite you to a weekend getaway, a bachelor or bachelorette party, or a function or two, your entertainment budget will be blown to smithereens.
CPI for all urban consumers has increased by 68% since I graduated from HS in 1995
What’s Missing? Lots! Readers have pointed out are Student Loans, Gifts (not charity), and mobile phone usage. There’s a good chance that if you’re making six figures a year you went to college and graduated with debt. I went to business school part-time and borrowed $40,000 that cost between $500 – $700 a month to service for 10 years, depending on the interest rate. In fact, the average amount of debt for graduate students is $57,600 according to the the Federal Education Budget Project at New America.
Final Cash Flow Review
The end result is annual cash flow of only ~$5,000, which could get spent in a hurry as things always pop up. But overall, this middle class family is building roughly $53,000 in net worth each year through principal pay down and 401(k) savings plus any appreciation in their investments and primary residence. Sadly, they are still paying more in taxes each year than they are in accumulating net worth!
After 22 years of work with no change in income or expenses, this household will likely amass a net worth of over $2,000,000 and the ability for at least one spouse to retire since their son will have graduated college. However, based on my recommended net worth goal for financial freedom equal to 20X annual expenses, this couple needs to accumulate closer to $3,500,000 to really feel comfortable for both to retire.
2018 Federal Income Tax Rates
After analyzing all the numbers above, the ideal household income to raise a family is $315,000 after deductions. At $315,000 you pay a 24% marginal income tax rate and avoid having to pay a whopping 8% more in federal income tax on each dollar over $315,000. This jump is large compared to the 2% jump from 22% to 24%.
Based on my experience, happiness did not increase for me when I began making over $200,000 as an individual. Happiness did not increase for us when we began making over $300,000 either. Therefore, due to the increase taxes and increase stress, it seems pointless to put yourself through the ringer simply to try and make more from a day job.
However, if this couple were to earn $376,000 and then take the $24,000 standard deduction and contribute $37,000 in their respective 401(k)s to bring taxable income down to $315,000, they would have an additional ~$43,000 in cash flow each year. For financial security and retiring earlier, that’s a nice extra buffer.
Save Aggressively Then Move
In order for this household to achieve financial independence, they’ve got to either up their 17% gross savings rate, figure out a way to reduce expenses, or boost income. Since boosting income probably hurts their quality of life due to more work and stress, the best way is to reduce expenses and diligently keep track of their finances online in order to continuously optimize their net worth. After 10 years of aggressive saving and earning, moving to a lower cost area to work or retire could be the perfect final move.
There’s a moving truck shortage in places like San Francisco because so many people are moving out of this expensive city. The trend is towards relocating towards the heartland, where valuations are cheaper and net rental yields are much higher. If you live in an expensive metropolitan area, consider relocating to a lower your cost of living or at least try and take advantage of the valuation differential by investing in Middle America. Thanks to technology, there’s no need to grind so hard in cities where the median home price is over $1M. The country is large. Go explore it!
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I hate people who get their torches out for bloggers who make a certain income. HCOL is incredibly different. In NYC, a one bedroom in midtown or even the upper east/west just starts at 500k. A 2 bed for 1200 square feet here is probably north of $1.5M.
Its just crazy the cost difference in places like NYC and SF. Sure, the salaries are higher, but so is everything else. You can’t judge someone’s income unless you know where they live.
While there’s nothing wrong with being a high income generator, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with aspiring to it, calling ‘$300,000’ middle class comes off as super out of touch.
There are several assumptions passed of as reasonable (no time to cook inflating food to 25K a year being a major one) which can reign in these cost very quickly. These assumptions in my opinion make the outlined budget that of a life of luxury, not the life of the middle class.
While Sam’s blog is always full of excellent insight and information, it seems to be a common theme of his to try to justify that he is ‘middle class’, which even when you adjust for coastal salary and cost (and his philosophy of stealth wealth) is clearly not the case. There’s nothing wrong with being in the 1%, but at least have the self awareness to acknowledge it.
1% household income starts at about $450,000 fyi
1% household income on the coasts would be much, much higher than $450,000.
~$850k/yr in Manhattan.
Fair play, should have clarified I was referring to Sam rather than the $300,000 income family he’s referenced.
I agree. Unfortunately, many of his recent posts seem more and more out of touch (e.g. the post about two parents working at home and the hour by hour obligations). I like a lot of the articles but having a hard time reading them lately. Most of the expenses listed can be reduced – and I live in the NYC/NJ area with a family of four.
That’s my problem and where I agree with Sam in a lot of his points. You are earning 300k+ and not being able to live comfortably in NYC and live in NJ instead. Earning that much means that you are a high skilled guy deserving at the very least of a decently sized home with a short commute, safe car, and good schools for your kid and save for retirement. You get none of them in NYC.
I agree your take is spot on unfortunately. I currently own house in North Jersey (600K Home). I have a wife and a 5 month old child. I am the only income in our small family, as my wife stays at home with the baby. My salary is $185,000 per year including bonus. I happen to work for my families business here in the local area. I always tell my wife that once the business sells, we are outta here!
Bay Area, San Fran, truly an island unto itself. For 99% of the rest of us, *six figures* is just a pretty place to be after enjoying our family, friends, and a walk in the park.
Haha, it makes me cringe to think how much money this is in South Africa. This would get you a 10 acre property in a gated area with huge house, tennis court and pool. Basically doing this for 4 years will let you retire comfortably if your living expenses is in SA.
Good post, well researched.
You’re joking, right? South Africa?
So you’re just going to ignore the social, racial, economic, and violence issues that plague the country? Everything costs something.
Social, racial, economic, and violence issues that plague the country?
Oh, yeah, because USofA doesn’t have any of those issues.
I think they were referring to confiscation of land being done on a racial basis. We do not have that in the USA.
You can always tell which people don’t have passports and get their information from the tube…there is no socioeconomic issue that exists in S.A., for which there is not considerably more prominent issue in States.
This post hits close to home. My family had two incomes, one child and lived a 15 minute train ride from NYC. You may as well have been copying some of these expense lines from our annual budget. Well, except for the car, I never spend big there. Pre-kids the lifestyle was great. Post kids, it was not worth it. We made some big changes. My wife left her job to stay home with our son. We moved to the suburbs and have more space for less cost. We fund a portion of our vacations with points now. We built up some nice savings before these moves so as long as the market goes in the right direction, I should be able to retire much earlier than most based on our current standard of living. I don’t know if I’d have been able to say that with 300k in annual Expenses.
Good website but I really think you’re not understanding how much 300k gross is for a family of 4 even in NYC or san fran.
It’s definitely at the high end of “middle class.” These articles catch peoples’ attention but make you seem really out of touch. If memory serves you’re from hawaii and vast majority of americans don’t grow up in such a high COL area. I have relatives in similarly high COL areas like san fran and I personally know families of four that live quite well on 150k-200k annually. Also, depending on the specialty, “specialist” doctors (all doctors specialize in something so a bit of a misnomer) make 300-550k many times.
Primary care makes from 205-240k depending on the survey. Furthermore, if the doc hasn’t missed time they will finish med school at age 26. Six yrs of post med school training (since you put 32) will give you subspecialists who will tend to make 400-500k a year and not 300k. All the examples you put of well-paid jobs are not rare but definitely not common. Median income in san fran is nowhere near 300k.
I’d love to know your household expenses for family of three or four living in an expensive coastal city. It’s good to share to see what the real reality is like versus the unreal reality that millions of other people face in the coastal cities.
Cost of living in Orange County
Mortgage: $2,600 Month
Property Tax: $868 month
Home Insurance: $100 Month
HOA: $295 Month
Food/Enteratainement for (2): $1,200 Month
Travel: $300 Month
1 Car Payment: $250 Month
Auto Insurance: $222 Month
Umbrella Insurance: $36 Month
Gas: $250 Month
Other: 500 Month
Total expense per month: $6,621 Month
Where is the line item for childcare and kid related stuff?
Also, it should be noted, what is often omitted in these discussions is Student Loans. When my wife and I got married, that payment alone was over $2k monthly (she went to private medical school).
I think that for most folks earning $300k or thereabouts, there is a good chunk of education and student loans that got them there. At least that’s been my experience.
Bingo! And good point. I’ll mention this in the post how this couple is lucky not to have student loans. Thanks for highlighting. I did highlight student loans in the post: Scraping By On $500,000 A Year
I don’t see childcare costs. We have 1 first grader and 1 pre-schooler. Childcare/school/enrichment classes is by far our biggest expense, over $3k a month. Our total monthly expense is over $10k.
Article slightly out of touch. May have challenged me to have children:
Cost of living in Del Mar, San Diego
Rent: Utilities: $3000 Month (2br, 3ba apartment)
Renter Insurance: $16 Month
HOA: 0
Food/Enteratainement for (2): $600
Travel: $2300 Month
1 Car Payment: $300 Month
Auto Insurance: $110 Month
Gas: $150 Month
Kids: $0
Total expense per month: $6,476
If we took home $18,000 per month ($300k annually), we could put $10,000 a month into savings.
300k gross is not a lot for a family in Manhattan. Outside of families with large net worths or rent stabilization, you are scraping by and your child is not getting a great education for that price.
I would say at least $400-500k is needed in Manhattan before you are out of the “middle class” because most with families expect their children’s education to be relatively strong if “upper class”.
Oy. But living in prime Manhattan versus say, Inwood, or Queens, or Brooklyn, or even the Bronx, is its own luxury good and if you’re doing it with a family, you’re probably not smack dab in the middle class. Looking at the metro area as a whole, only those with unusual circumstances (like an inherited rent stabilized apartment) or those who are pretty friggin rich live in Manhattan, especially once they have kids and can’t live with a million roommates and/or in a teeny tiny apartment. It doesn’t mean you can’t live anywhere near Manhattan, make less than $300k/year and be middle class.
I think it is fairly obvious that he is making the point that highly paid individuals in rich cities are not flying private and/or living a lifestyle that is much better than the middle class in the rest of the country.
I make 7 figures in Manhattan and my wife’s family lives in a small town in the south. People there making $60k tend to have more free time with their family, higher square footage homes, 2 cars, 1 stay-at-home parent, and rarely work a 60hr+ week.
If you do make $300k/yr in Manhattan, you will have much less time with your family, small apt, 1 car or none, both parents often working, and regularly working over 60hrs+ week. Additionally, your kids will go to a similar quality public school (or worse) than those living in the small towns.
Now, there are several things that differ, of course. The $60k family is not eating at Per Se and doesn’t know what omakase is nor do they have the pleasure of paying $100 for a yoga session they can do at home. However, the previous era of a $300k salaried employee living a wealthy, high-luxury lifestyle in NYC or SF is no longer the case.
I think you are spot on with the $315k after deductions. Living in a costal city with one small child and a modest house, our expenses are in line with what you have shown.
Damn $2100 for food?! My wife and I spend less than $200/month on groceries. I can’t imagine spending nearly $2k on restaurants.
Regardless, geo-arbitrage can be a huge boon. I went from living in LA back to MN and got a 30% raise in the process – so double wammy there.
The thought of having to earn $300k+ in order to live an ‘average’ middle class life is…wow.
You have a great situation. It’s like being a doctor in the Midwest. You got a nice salary increase and your cost-of-living is much lower than the coast.
I do think the trend towards living in lower cost area of the country will continue over the coming decades, hence my investment positioning in the heartland.
It’s a no-brainer to move if you are financially struggling or want to reach Financial independence earlier.
Doctor income isn’t that different in the midwest compared to “nice areas.” You have to go to iowa, texas, or the flyover states for the big bucks in medicine btw.
How?!!?! I spend over $300 monthly as a college student who thinks that they are eating “frugally” I basically eat the same few things every day
We meal prep every Sunday for all of our lunches. Between planning out our meals and shopping at Aldi, we’ve got a very good system. We eat inexpensive foods, mostly buying the same things and stuff on sale, and since we eat the same foods most weeks we have done a really good job of minimizing our food waste, which also helps us minimize expense.
A typical weekly trip costs ~$60 with some weeks being $40 and others being $80. It depends on what we need to stock up on.
I just don’t see how that is possible if you are eating quality fresh foods. Maybe high carb boxed foods, pasta, rice etc.
Personally I feel spend extra to eat fresh fruits, veggies, quality meat, inexpensive quality wine and beer is worth it to enjoy life if you can afford it. Just like a gym membership or home spin bike is an investment in your health if you actually use it.
It’s easily possible. Fresh food is often cheaper than processed stuff. You don’t have to spend extra to buy quality food. You actually have to spend extra to buy junk.
What? You can eat over 60 servings PER DAY of the classic frugal college student ramen noodles on $300 a month. Where is your money going?!
Great analysis, but I’m pretty sure there’s a $24k hole in your numbers – the $24k standard deduction is a non-cash expense and needs to be added back to post-tax income. Regardless, the net effect is still the same of the family not having a high enough savings rate to be FI any time soon.
You are right, and I have made some amendments. I also excluded FICA tax for two. So they both somewhat cancel each other out. Bottom line is that they’re gross income gets cut down by about 40% after taxes and retirement contributions.
If the couple is healthy (a substantial “if”), you may be overestimating their terminal annual expenses by about $70k: their mortgage payment and their child care cost should be completely gone by the time they retire.
You bring up a great point. Hopefully healthcare costs remain under control Over the coming decades, but I doubt it.
Elderly care facilities can really bust the budget if there is no family member willing to support you. We’re talking $10,000 a month for fully assisted-living for several years.
Good point. That’s why people need to raise decent kids and make that inheritance something to be earned.
Absolutely correct Sam. My mother has Alzheimer’s. Living at home 24/7 care costs about $130,000 annually plus home maintenance. Dad was a prodigious saver but the burn rate on what he left is considerable. I’m a physician in my 60s and I can afford to take over her expenses once her money is gone provided I continue to work. However it will be impossible to retire and pay for her expenses plus mine out of my passive income. Also an elder law attorney told me recently that several states are looking into “filial duty”laws where families must step up to care for aged parents rather than game the system to have parents cared for as indigents by the states.
The high cost of health care has been the cause of many citizens to be broke. I am medically retired from the military. I was fortunate to get all healthcare cost be taken care from the military benefits. I did not go to college just join the army at are 17 and now at 39 i get all the things i could possible not be able to afford, even with a college degree. 6 months i spend in the hospital at $0 out of pocket.
Thank you for your service!
You earned your pension and medical.
Thanks Sam. I’m a SF resident living in the Sunset District and an avid reader of your blog. Your analysis mirrors what me and many of my ‘young professional’ neighbors experience today. SF is a special place, but the challenges to make a living here and raise a family are well represented in this article.
Other than food, two other categories stand out to me as outrageous.
First, property insurance of only $1560 annually? How can that be for a $1.5M home? My midwest valued at aroudn $300k has insurance over $2k. How can so little coverage be acceptable for a $1.5M home?
The other is the money for clothes. We clothe our family of 4 easily on what this budget spends on a month or two. It just doesn’t seem right to me.
That’s interesting. My property insurance is only about $1k per year for a $650k home. I can’t imagine why yours is double what mine is. Maybe your home is in a higher-risk area for natural disasters? Earthquake coverage isn’t included in our insurance policies (California), and apart from that I’m not really at major risk of floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc.
We should also consider the actual cost of rebuilding. The land doesn’t go anywhere, so it would just be rebuilding costs that would affect the premium. Most of my $650k house value in the land, so if the rebuild cost is around $250k, that’s the real “value” number from an insurance perspective.
Also, a huge portion of homeowner’s insurance is third-party (liability) coverage, so it wouldn’t be a linear increase in premium based merely on the value of the home.
The difference is hail. New roofs every few years in the Midwest make the insurance a lot more expensive. Especially since earthquakes aren’t covered here in CA.
My 2.5m peninsula home’s insurance is 1200/yr (no earthquake coverage tho!). Umbrella adds another 400/yr.
Sam, right on. Even in Canada, we do have to make an effort to have that middle class life and retirement life and plenty of people who had two professional incomes did not save nearly enough and/or make the right financial moves, and struggle in retirement even with pensions. Pensions don’t cover the rising rents if you don’t own, replacing cars, vacations, “luxuries” like dental, vision, and hearing aids, never mind a new laptop or phone. We do have free medical (pretty much), good public schools, and much cheaper higher education, but prices are much higher and income taxes are much higher. Also, COL in the middle of the country is not so low due to long distances to drive to everything in all weather and much higher heating, food, and property taxes. I think wages/salaries are probably lower too in some occupations.
The sum of car and home insurance (~2.8K) does strike me as a bit low. In my household is bundled since that way I get a discount. For a ~1 million home and a 2017 Honda accord our home plus car insurance comes out to around ~3.5K. We are in a NYC suburb. Of course I do no know what the car and home insurance market is like out in SF.
Indeed the insurance premium difference is somewhat puzzling.
Perhaps one of the differences is that a $300k house in the Midwest is a much bigger structure than a $1.5M house in San Francisco. Of course that does not explain the entire difference because rebuilding costs are also quite a bit higher in San Francisco. All those low-wage construction workers are not so low-wage in San Francisco because they too have to live in ultra expensive real estate, so exorbitant housing costs quickly become pervasive and inflate all costs and expenses — as you can see from the babysitting budget on Sam’s list.
Indeed the cost of anti-growth policies is staggering, but it’s the very grass roots suckers that support them who expedite our financial independence through real estate investments. The children of the pitchforkers who headed to City Hall to save the earth every time something new where to be built are now renting from uncle HB. So, in a way, I hope not too many people take my comment seriously and thus continue the good anti-growth work, and least until the distortion gets into bubble territory — and we may already be there, but that’s another story.
300k is a lot for most people, even for coastal cities like NYC or San Fran. I know people that have a family of four in these areas and they live quite comfortably on 150-200k a yr. A lot of the expenses in your chart like 2,000 a year for one person’s clothes, >8,000 a yr for food for each person, and 2,400 a yr for charity are luxuries that most people in those areas don’t partake in.
Also, while it is not uncommon for people to make 300k in San Fran for a household it’s not the norm. In 2016 the median household income in the Bay area was only 96k.
http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/san-francisco/
300k is definitely at the very high end of middle class.
Finally, the average primary care doc finishes residency at age 29 and makes 205-240k a year depending on the survey. I’m a doc so I know a bit about the income we make.
Specialists that finish at age 32 (6 yrs of residency/fellowship training) are typically making 300-550k a yr, although less when starting. 6 yrs of PGY training yields subspecialists who tend to make a fair amount more than the average doc who makes 205-300k. Everybody specializes in something, by the way. Geographic arbitrage is actually a big factor in medicine; a doctor in a low-paid specialty can make 160k in a saturated area or 350k in the boondocks.
I am a doctor residing in Manhattan. 300k for a family in Queens or the Bronx is a lot. In prime Bk or Manhattan (which is almost certainly what he means by “NYC”), 300k doesn’t get you very far. In fact, my expenses are more than listed and we don’t even have a child yet. Admittedly, we don’t live an austere life but no one visiting us from outside the city would be able to imagine we spend that much in a month by our lifestyle. Everything is just really expensive here. Many of my friends are paying $50k per child for private school. Two kids means $200k annual gross income just for their elementary school education.
Yeah well most “middle class” people don’t send their kids to 50k a year boarding schools. It’s called public school.
It’s not boarding school. I just looked up my elementary school for a friend interested and it’s now 42k a year. And it wasn’t fancy. SF area. We didn’t have tennis courts and an Olympic pool. Now I realize that’s crazy, stupid expensive but just so you realize it’s not like these are schools where people are eating caviar for snack time.
Are there no public schools in SF? Or are they really that bad? I couldn’t imagine having to pay that much for elementary school or even college!
Boarding school or private school–the point is that middle class people don’t spend 100k a year for something that is “free” with taxes. The vast majority of normal people send their kids to public schools. Ideally you have somewhat decent options locally but if you don’t you persevere.
A lot of the people I know that went to boarding schools are abject failures in life that can’t support themselves at age 30 and live at home. I went to a public school, for what it’s worth.
I don’t recall if sam is from a rich family but his perspective is highly skewed. 300k in san fran is 3x the median household income there. It’s definitely at the high end of middle class. And if a 300k family wanted to they could move to Ohio and become “upper class.”
I went to public high school and a public college, The College of William and Mary. It cost $2800/year in intuition back in 1995.
https://www.financialsamurai.com/should-i-go-to-public-school-or-private-school/
There are good schools in the San Francisco public school system. But the system is a lottery system for social engineering. If you buy a house and pay $20,000/year in property taxes, you have no guarantee you get to go to your neighborhood school. If you can’t get into a good school, many parents feel that it is worth the sacrifice to also apply to private school.
I might add that it is not just the well-off who send their kids to private schools in San Francisco. I worked in a poor neighborhood for years (another “poor” primary care doctor) and was struck by how many working-class families would do anything they had to to send their kids to private schools. These folks weren’t stupid; they knew the value of a high quality education.
If one of the spouses in these expensive coastal areas has an earning capacity of only around $100k per year then it makes much more sense for that parent to not work and homeschool (hear that Sam?). Especially if you have more than one child.
If you take into account that the second income would get all taxed at the marginal tax rates and you may even lose some deductions, the additional social security payback for a second earner is much diluted, a second health insurance is worthless since one spouse already insures the entire family, Medicare is already guaranteed once you’ve worked 10 years, add babysitting and commuting costs… then you actually come out ahead even financially by staying home and educating the kids — and your children don’t get indoctrinated with the group thing of schooling — which also gives them a leg up on their future financial independence.
Well, in any case, that’s what we do.
By the way, the marginal tax rates for most people in CA are much higher than the rate tables imply because of loss of deductions with rising income (e.g. Passive activity loss etc).
If you use tax preparation software software then its easy to do the “what if” analysis. Just increase/decrease your income entry by a couple thousand dollars and see how your tax bill changes. That reveals your true combined marginal tax rate.
Three years ago (pre tax reform) I filed an amended return because I had forgotten to subtract some income. By reducing my income by $2200 I got back a total of about $1050 federal and state combined, virtually a 50% effective combined tax rate. Combine that with the fact that if you eventually become “too” financially independent you may face an additional inheritance tax of 45% (much less of an issue now post tax reform) and you easily say thanks but no thanks to additional work and career ambitions. For us it would be preposterous for both spouses to work, and even I have significantly curtailed my work hours and career ambitions, as well as my ability to create more high paying jobs in the tech sector and contribute to further prosperity for this country (for you class warriors out there).
Very few people are able to homeschool their children properly. For ex, I have an MD and my wife has a BA. How exactly would I teach my children nanotechnology, biomechanics, genetics, AI/neural nets, or anything else needed for the future? It would take me years to learn all of that stuff, let alone teach it. That’s what kids at top institutions are learning now. If you are making $300k+ in a large city, you are hoping your kids will stay in the top 5% or 1% in their lives & it’s tough to do that via homeschooling except for the rare programmer that creates a multimillion dollar business in their teenage years.
Understood, I grew up in a family where my parents wages were in the $30-60k range most of my life and I went to a public school. But my education there was significantly better than what you obtain in the vast majority of Manhattan public schools.
Also, in regards to wage averages, you have to realize in NYC and SF, the “real” middle class doesn’t exist. I have employees that make $40-100k annually, for example, and they survive, but they don’t have savings, they have to refi their houses regularly, borrow money, kids go to schools in dangerous areas, both parents work, they commute over an hour sometimes to get to work, etc.
I think your income totals might have an error. You use the $24K standard deduction to calculate the tax liability but it looks like you actually deduct that from their spendable income. Although they wouldn’t have to pay taxes on that $24K, they would still be able to spend it. If I am correct (and maybe I’m missing something) this couple would have an additional $2K per month to spend.
Long time reader, so my comments and questions are consider other articles you have written.
If someone is working in SF and cannot take full advantage of geoarbitrage, wouldn’t a reasonable alternative be either living in a smaller apartment/condo in SF or live just outside of SF for a reduced expense? 2,000 sq.ft. of living space is typical for an American family, but if you compare to cities like Hong Kong, 600 sq.ft. is considered adequate for a family of 4-6. Not saying 600 sq.ft. is what people should strive for, but while a 1.5M house is the going price for SF, I’m not convinced it is the best path for financial freedom even if real estate is as much personal use as it is investment. I recognize there are no “correct” ways to manage a budget, but I personally would rather cut housing cost (savings in mortgage interest and property tax) before cutting food expenses.
Also $200/month, representing greater than 50% of what the family is generating for cash flow, sounds like a lot for charity. Can’t fault anyone for being generous, but I know I am not willing to part with that much money if I only save $341 a month.
With all that said, I will 100% agree that $300k = middle class in a city like SF. Because whatever savings one can generate by reduction in housing costs (or any other areas), the savings really need to go into post-tax savings. So it’s not exactly living large no matter how you slice it.
Funny enough, I live just outside SF in the peninsula and it’s actually more expensive than SF proper. The only real option would be easy bay and having an hour+ commute each way.
$200 a month in charity only sounds like a lot in the context of their “free cash flow” in this budget. If you consider what they’re spending on themselves or what they earn overall, it’s paltry. It’s all about priorities, and this hypothetical family clearly does not place much value on giving.
We could all cash out and move to Mexico, Costa Rica, or a similar country to enjoy the lower standard of living and great weather, but few do that. The price of admission to a city’s opportunities, convenience and other selling points is higher expenses – which are driven by the demand to live there. I don’t think of this couple as the struggling middle class as much as a couple who has decided that the price of the city is worth it. Could they move and get paid less, and enjoy more material things – possibly. I lived in NYC for a couple of years after graduating from college. Great time, but a black hole of funds and I estimated then (decades ago) that to live in a good neighborhood and send my yet to be born kids to a decent school would require a $500k annual salary – and the attendant tread mill. The reality is that we ALL face the challenge of living within our means, and the temptation not to so as to keep up with the Joneses. The key is to choose a lifestyle that you can sustain without working yourself into an early grave, and stop comparing that lifestyle to what others choose or can afford. Your observation that making over $200k didn’t impact your happiness indicates that cost today of your chosen lifestyle (and location) is about 200k. I have a number for myself and family as well, but I suspect that this is more than we really need to be happy. You can choose happiness at any income level.
I tend to agree with your general assessment, but I disagree with income not providing additional comforts and happiness.
The Best thing higher income can provide is less worry about money. But there is a huge psychological component to financial independence where it’s very hard to let go due to fear and the one more year syndrome.
The more you have, the more you worry, if you have a personality that tends to worry about money. Trust me… ;-)
Me too, but for me the worries are more trivial, and more about not losing money, changes in rules and taxes that will affect me, adding more “safety” by increasing net worth, setting higher goals to see what happens, spending to optimize happiness, whether some small luxury is worth the cost.
I think you underestimate how many people do not geo-arbitrage simply because of inertia or because they just don’t know any better, people who used to carry soap on their first trips to Costa Rica a couple of decades ago because they thought they don’t have it down there. While that is an extreme most people are afraid to venture too far out.
It’s so interesting how these numbers hold even at a different life stage.
We are a family of 4 with school age kids in the nyc metro area. So expenses which would go towards day care and baby supplies now go towards sports and other activities for example. And since we are in the burbs, we have more cars and a bigger house with higher insurance and maintenance bills across the board.
We have one income via my various consulting work.
And my expenses are pretty much exactly what you outlined here.
Thanks, this is great! Quick question, is this for a family or 3 or 4? Your table cites 3 but your article cites 3.
Just to compare, we live in NYC and the numbers are similar if not higher than this as NYS + NYC income tax ~11% (not 9% in CA), child care is ~$2,500/m (not $2,000), public transportation ~$700/m and I wish I was only paying 3.25% rate on my mortgage!
Sorry, how does public transportation cost $700/month? An unlimited ride metro card is $121/month times two adults…kids under a certain height ride free. School age kids get 3 free swipes per school day. I guess if both adults are buying the weekly express bus unlimited cards that would bring it up to just under $500. Still don’t know where the extra $200 comes from.
LIRR train tickets for two would easily add up to 600+, and if someone is working anywhere away from the PENN Station is going to add another 117 to each person. That is way pass 700 bucks already,
And BTW, LI property taxes are notoriously high, I pay 18K a year for a postage stamp size lot house.
Any Decent car will cost about 500 a month of payment.
The Mortgage is 2700 a month.
Yeah, 300K doesn’t go far in NY or CA.
I would move. I make 100,000 plus as a nurse practitioner. Other health professionals, excluding physicians, make good money too. But I would have to bust my ass to make an income of 300. I’m frugal and managed to invest to over 1 mill with the help of my wife but I’ll stay away from the coast. I hope all the rich folk stay away from my small towns. Peaceful, simple and cheap.
Where is your small town so the rich people consider buying? You might have to bust your ass making $300,000 a year, but if you find a partner who makes $200,000 a year, then you won’t have to do anything more except for to start saving on expenses.
“…but if you find a partner who makes $200,000 a year, then you won’t have to do anything more except for to start saving on expenses.” Well, that solves ALL my problems! Why didn’t I think of that?
Bingo! I’ve got a post for that: https://www.financialsamurai.com/how-to-get-a-rich-man-to-be-your-boyfriend-or-husband/
But it can apply to men and women, whatever your preference. #OneLove
Interesting that the term “coastal” almost never includes Florida, the state with most coastline in the continental US.
Cost of living in Florida is notoriously low compared to the rest of the US.
I make about $150,000, and spend about $17,000, and people tell me how rich I must be, based on their perception of my wealth based on the spending they see.
On the Florida coast, $17,000 can buy a lot, and with no state income tax, I would suggest it is the best coast for maximizing the amount you can put into investments, and still afford a comfortable life.
I don’t disagree. In fact, I would move to Florida after making and saving as much money as possible in a big city, especially if it was one on the East Coast eg NYC. Who wants to pay state income taxes?
It’s not in the coastal or not, or even on the DEMAND. Millions of people have moved to Florida creating huge demand but, unlike California, supply restrictions have been light.
It’s all in the SUPPLY — and of course in the supply restrictions.
Demand for electronics has increased one hundred fold in the past four decades, yet they are getting more and more affordable. Why? Unrestricted supply.
It’s not in the demand, but in the supply, and the pitchforker anti-growth attitude that makes your next upgrade house more expensive even faster than your current one, and prices your children out of your area, or makes them lifetime renters.
Thank you Sam, I love the site, active reader for the last 6 years (and now a podcast listener). I am in NYC (Brooklyn) and you are spot on. My household income hovers around the range in your article. I have two kids, an SUV, and go on 2-3 vacations a year. I was fortunate enough to be able to buy a 2 family brick town house in 2009 for around $650k, and refinanced to a 30 year mortgage at 3.75%. My mortgage is around $2,400/month, Real Estate tax around $580/month, maintenance/insurance around $1000. However after factoring in 1,300 of rental income, my total living cost is around ~$2,700. That extra savings via rental income goes a long way.
One item that I think is missing (couldn’t reconcile to your federal effective tax rate, if it is in there ignore my comment) is Social Security and Medicare tax. For a household making $300,000 (assume income is split 50%/50%) that’s an extra ~$20k (that’s without even factoring in the extra 0.9% which kicks in after $250k). As you pointed out in many of your other posts, having passive income and business income where you have opportunities to lower your taxable income base goes a long way.
Appreciate your site and keep doing what your doing. Your articles motivate, educate, and make all of us more financially well off.
Saving for retirement, saving for children and their education, owning your own home: these things sound upper class to me. Maybe the person earning $300,000 a year needs to reevaluate what a middle class life style is and review their goals.
There is something to be said for relocation once FI is reached. The pros out weigh the cons of living in a major metro area while young. Building some experience and increasing income is way easier in expensive cities.
I live in a middle ground location Denver and feel like it was a good call. Career wise household income could be larger but as you stated I have found my happiness not really increasing with income. Shoveling more money away is great but there is a cost to everything.
I feel like I have “hacked” a HCOL area with our only reoccurring expense being a $1,580 mortgage. At this point I am at the earn and accumulate stage. I see Colorado being a place I will stay. My longer term goal is to transition from the 9-5 corp life to something that I will make less in but enjoy more.
Have to earn and save to reach those kind of long term goals but we are on track. Visited SF once and it was a great vibrant city. If you are a tech guru I don’t think there is ever a reason to leave. For those chasing the money in that industry though I am sure many will reach a breaking point and reshape their situation.
Great reads lately!
Everything seems so inflated, but that’s the price you pay to live in an expensive city. There isn’t much room to cut back with a kid. I guess they’ll just have to make more money to save extra.
I wonder how poor people get by in SF and NY. Rent control and rental assistance? It seems crazy to just get by with $300,000 income.
Portland is a bit cheaper. I think you’re right about the equivalent. $120,000 is pretty good. A friend is making $40,000 and she’s just getting by with barely any savings. She’d need to increase her income to at least $65,000/year to get ahead.
I can answer that Joe! It’s easy to squeeze people in. If you’re a family of 3 the most you need is 2 rooms. And not bedrooms per se. Just rooms. So you can pack everyone in as dense and affordable as you can and do no maintenance afterwards because the low rent gives landlords no incentive to keep you. (That’s how my kidhood went) and we kept our rent under $1000 average every single year. Last year my mom pay $800 per month for a basement in San Francisco.
(Our family of 3 made $20k to $40k in the best year.)
Is it a little sad that my first thought on a $48k mortgage only annual payment was “ohh that’s pretty affordable for San Fran! Nice find!” >_<
Childcare is ridiculous as always. & I mean their food costs is half of their housing…to me* it seems HIGH for 3 people (one being a kid too) but everything else on the budget looks to be about right (middle class) after you adjust for the cost of living.
*I've lived in SF half of my life and food isn't that much more expensive compare to Seattle. SF is foodie paradise.
And $53k net worth gains being built in isn't bad at all! It's really good actually! That gain is probably the biggest non middle class-y part about this.
I live in Princeton, NJ, formerly of NYC. So, a coastal-ish place in a high income/cost area.
I think most of your chart is correct but I would add another 24k/year for expenses (childcare) for a 2nd child, if you do want to say this is for a family of 4. I know your chart says the childcare is for just 1 child but in your intro you said for a family of 4. I have 2 kids and each one costs about 2k/month in childcare for high quality care. Luckily the older one will be starting public kindergarten in fall of 2019 so that will be a nice savings!!
Is it really double the cost for two kids? Surely there are workarounds to saving money for childcare. Some hire an au pair, the babysitters I speak to don’t charge double for two kids, and the daycare providers provide some discount. 50%-65% more, but not 100% more.
I feel that every parent figures out a way not to pay double the cost once the second child is born.
Every daycare provider I know (maybe 12 locations?) charges per child. You might get a 5-10% discount on the second child, or perhaps both. But it’s pretty close to double for two kids. In our case, our non-profit daycare gave us 5% off the total bill for having two kids enrolled at once.
This is why when our second child was ready for daycare we switched to a nanny. It was 2 kids for 1.5x cost of 1 and no more commuting to/from daycare… kids stayed in our house. Way better deal
I’m with you, but my wife was pretty adamant that our daughter had a good experience in daycare, and when our son was born, she was getting a lot out of it educationally. So she didn’t want to send her home with the nanny and a new baby.
It wound up the right move for our daughter (she was a full year ahead of other kindergarteners academically, even in a top school system full of yuppies), but the wrong move for our son. I’ve already said if we have a third we’re getting an au-pair. I refuse to pay all that money to haul a 6 month old back and forth to a daycare nursery, and have them get sick 60% of the time and have to stay home anyway….
Really enjoyed the article Sam! The post is very relevant for my wife and me. We live in NYC and our income is marginally higher than the income figure outlined. While we do not have kids yet, we are able to save considerably more than the example provides. We save a meaningful portion of our net income or just over 30%ish of gross income. Regrettably, we never bought in NYC, but only have about $3Kish of monthly living expenses by living in a so so apt (2 bedroom walk up in BK/Queens) that will be large enough even when we have a young kid. We also do not have a car so our transportation costs are very manageable…pre tax unlimited subway is tough to beat. Outside of the SALT tax, I am really not sure if my COLA would go down much by moving to the Midwest/FL. Granted my lifestyle would likely be much better at the same expense figures etc.
Since when is living in a $1.5M house, driving a $60k luxury SUV (also that’s twice your 1/10 car rule), and eating out constantly or having food delivered middle-class? $2100 to feed a family of 3, you can’t be serious.
When I see posts like this I wonder if you’re starting to lose the plot on what middle class actually is. $300k is the top few percent of income earners, so by its very definition is not middle class. I also think you need to understand that most of the country (you said the coast, but outside of living literally on the coast of california or manhattan your numbers are very inflated) doesn’t nor needs to live like this.
In most of the country $200k lets you live very comfortably if you’re diligent with your money. Nice house, reliable cars, vacations (reasonable ones; e.g. drive to disney, not fly the whole family to Paris), retirement, cover college.
I think this is mostly a perspective from SF and NYC because that’s where Sam lived. Makes me happy that I don’t live in those cities.
Also, this website is geared to “the average above-average”. Two college grads in their 30s can easily make $150k a piece total comp. My point is, I don’t think Sam is out of touch with the middle class. I think he is mainly referring to the middle class as his defined average above-average.
“Two college grads in their 30s can easily make $150k a piece total comp.”
Data does not support this. Most college grads in their 30’s do not make this much, which means it can’t be done “easily”, and to have a total household income at $300k or more when you’re 39 or younger puts you in the upper echelons of income earners across the country.
I agree Sam’s target audience is on average better heeled than average.
Yeah 150k is not at all easy to make. I am in the beginning of my career as an accountant and to make 150k you need to become a partner in a firm which takes 10-15 years and not many people make it that long. I think 80k a year is pretty easy to get to with 5-10 years experience in my field. Maybe up to 120k if you are a top performer. I could make more in New York or San Francisco, but not that much more.
We live in a NYC suburb. Our food costs comes out to around 2K a month for a family of 4 so 2100 a month for a family of 3 is slightly high but not absurd. Understand that part of the 2K per month has our child paying $2.5 a day for lunch a school which clearly is under-priced (not that the food is that awesome.)
From Census Bureau data San Francisco and Washington, DC are indeed at the top of the median household income distribution among the 25 most-populous metro areas (see Fig 2):
https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2017/acs/acsbr16-02.pdf
But median household income in these two relatively well-off large cities is still a bit below six figures (as of 2016).
As for the upper tail we can get an estimate from
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/15/income-inequality-in-the-bay-area-is-among-nations-highest/
where #3 San Francisco has a 95th percentile of $397,594 (your target of 300K should be near the 90th percentile here). It’s close to the 95th percentile in New York City.
Therefore I think your expenses table is out of reach for the vast majority of households in SF & NYC, so it might actually be possible to get by on less.
Why do they stay? My guess is that they earn enough to get anything they want– but not everything they want. So they would rather give up or trim some of the lines in your ideal budget than relocate. IMHO part of being ‘middle class’ is having to make some trade-off decisions.
Doubt this will get approved, but whatever.
$2000 a month on food? $500 a month for clothes? I live in the most expensive cities in the world (10 years each in New York, London, Hong Kong and Tokyo) and for our very typical family of four our figures are half that easily.
If you take out a $1 million mortgage, yes, you probably need to make $300,000 unless you want to be up to your eyeballs in debt. Maybe don’t take out a $1 million loan? Believe it or not it’s possible to live a comfortably middle-class life in a house that costs a fourth or a fifth of that.
I can’t decide if you’re that cluelessly out of touch, simply posting click bait articles for the click$, or both.
He is out of touch with what a middle class is. Middle class is supposed to be the bulk of the people, not the special kids working in Facebook. It may be surprising to him that lots of American are living with no investment and savings and middle class is really just anyone who can own a house at this point and have savings.
Call me selfish as well as out of touch, it doesn’t matter. I really don’t want my readers to lead the typical middle-class lifestyle where people have no retirement savings, can barely afford a home, and have to work until they can receive Social Security. I’ve seen the benefits of financial freedom, and it is worth fighting for.
There are few personal finance education requirements in school, pensions are going away, and the United States government wasn’t as focused as Australia or Singapore or Canada to take care of its people. Therefore, people in America must focus on taking care of themselves.
https://www.financialsamurai.com/how-much-have-americans-saved-for-retirement/
I agree, the articles have helped me a lot. But I think the main problem is as someone else said later. The middle class didn’t disappear. The definition of middle class, if maintained as it used to be (as yours) have disappeared.
A more fair title would have been. Minimum household salary to live a comfortable, financially stable life in the coast. The new requirement to be the old middle class.
Though if we think about it, why? Why is it that magically, there is a critical number that once hit, financial stress goes away? Until one goes past a certain number and different strss takes its place. That may be a fun article to write. It would probably have something to do with earning ability vs spending “requirement”.
If you have any listings for houses that are $200,000-$250,000 that can comfortable fit a family of 4 in NYC, London, or Hong Kong can you please send them to me? I would love to invest in a property in any of those cities where I could rent out the house for 50% of the purchase price annually.
Man, I’d love to know too! That would be sweet to buy properties for $200K-$250K here in SF and flip them for instant gains.
I would be kinda upset too if I bought NYC and London property and sold a long time ago to only be able to afford to buy a $300K house in the suburbs of Tokyo. But man, the food in Tokyo/Japan in general is so good, it might help him ease the pain.
LOL. Clearly DragonAsh is a jealous guy who feels bad that he lives in a mediocre house in the boondocks of Tokyo. If he was happy with himself, he wouldn’t be so angry per his original comment.
Ah, the banter is so fun! “I’m financially free but still work” is the biggest lie people who are not financially free tell themselves.
Care to share when you reached financial independence and how much your budget is with how many kids? Where do you live?
You sound pretty bitter for some reason. Plenty of commenters have said the expenses are spot on, if not low.
Financial independence at age 40, although I still work because I love what I do, two kids, spent the last 10 years in London, 10 years before that in NYC (UWS) and currently live in Tokyo and I paid cash for my house.
I wonder if maybe you’re thinking of housing prices from 20+ years ago when you bought in NYC. A 3 bedroom apartment on the UWS today rents for $8,000-$22,000/month and would be a minimum $2M and more likely $3M+ to purchase. Prices in the last decade have gone crazy in these cities.
DragonAsh- since you had live in all these expensive cities, would you mind sharing your expenses in these categories? Would love to compare line items by items.
Sure – here’s a snapshot of our monthly budget that has stayed fairly consistent over time. I track everything in Excel – I’m a total Excel nerd – but I don’t think the formatting will come through. Still, this should give you a reasonable snapshot. As noted, family of four (with a golden retriever that eats enough to be considered a third child….)
Salary (Gross) 13,000
Salary (Net) 9,000
Food 800
Dining out 250
Daily sundries 100
Newspaper/books 100
Clothing 100
Pet 100
Hair cuts etc. 100
Other 100
Electricity 125
Gas 125
Water 100
Internet 100
TV 100
Landline 10
Mobile (1) 100
Mobile (2) 100
Car-related 80
Car insurance 20
Gas (car) 30
Train/subway 50
Home insurance 20
Property tax 70
Furniture/appliances 100
Reform/renovation 500
Life insurance 200
Health insurance 25
Clinic visits etc. 25
Allowance (1) 350
Allowance (2) 350
Family travel etc 600
Hobbies/lessons 500
PC-related 100
Total expense 5,130
Monthly Savings 3,570
Thanks for sharing. Can you expand upon the property tax being so low and there being no mortgage or rent? Housing costs are generally a huge portion of one’s expenses, if ot the largest in expensive metropolitan areas.
I’d love to learn from you how to live so cheaply in an expensive city. Your property tax would indicate a house that cost about $66,000 in SF compared to the $1.5M median cost.
That said, many residents I know here in SFdon’t pay much for housing at all because their parents hooked them up. https://www.financialsamurai.com/a-massive-generational-wealth-transfer-is-why-everything-will-be-ok/
There’s no mortgage or rent because I pay cash for my houses. My current home (two-story, four-bedroom house in Tokyo) is worth around $300K. Property taxes are cheaper in Tokyo than they were in NYC or London, but our overall budget has not changed all that much no matter where we live, with the obvious exception that we now have kids-related expenses that we didn’t have previously. But overall, the monthly budget hasn’t changed. London was more expensive for utilities, cheaper for food, Japan was cheaper for health care, more expensive for food, NY was more expensive for food, cheaper for transportation etc etc.
My salary has remained fairly constant at around half of your ‘$300,000’ example, yet I save just as much as your example – in part because I’m not spending $60K a year on a mortgage and car payment.
(I’m also well aware that I would at the very least be at the high end of what could be considered ‘middle class’).
I too can live cheaply and call people who spend a lot foolish if I don’t have to pay rent or a mortgage.
What am I missing here?
What are you missing to be so out of touch with working families living in coastal cities?
What are you missing to be so out of touch as to think that people simply must take out $1 million mortgages to buy a $1.5mn home, then cry and moan that they have to make $300,000 to be ‘middle class’?
I paid cash for my house and car by *not* doing those. It’s amazing how much money you have left over if you’re not handing over a chunk of your salary to the bank each month.
You still haven’t revealed what city you paid cash. Obviously not in a big city bc you don’t make enough and your property taxes indicate the value of your house is low.
You telling people they are out of touch while claiming to pay $1M cash for a house is hilarious.
You can’t have it both ways as you try. Either say how much you bought the house for and where or stop being so clueless and enjoy your Midwestern winter.
*Shrug* believe what you want, I’m just a random guy on the internet. Like you.
But FWIW – I paid cash for my first house (condo) in NYC (UWS). I paid cash for my second house in London. I paid cash for my current house in downtown Tokyo. My current house is worth $300K give or take. I had to pay more for my NYC and London properties, and property taxes are cheaper in Tokyo, but that’s neither here nor there.
Well done! I’m aiming towards buying a home with cash (though much smaller) a few years from now as well. Your budget is a good reference for my future cash flow.
Glad to see you’re able to squeeze travel and dining out in there too. Those tend to get brushed aside in my budget.
Utilities$ Our electric, gas, water, trash, phone/internet, cell phone is about $600 for a family of 4 in Hermosa Beach and that is without air conditioning!
You’re so lucky! I love Hermosa- no AC needed.
I understand you’re trying to stretch numbers and create a bit of a debate here but these numbers definitely aren’t for a middle class family. They’re in the high end of all categories and would be nothing but very high upper middle class, borderline wealthy.
I live in a 1 br apartment in a nice neighborhood in SF (wife, no kids), takes two annual overseas vacations, have expensive hobbies but try to be aware of costs in everyday life. Annual spending $70k. Add in your childcare expenses, another room in the apartment and scale up the rest of the costs for total annual costs of ~120k. This is what I would consider a very good middle-class life, although living in a smaller space than the average american (it’s a city after all….). This is about 50k cheaper than your family above and not even trying to live especially frugal.
No problem. Enjoy your freedom now and get back to me when you have one or two kids and let me know how your costs change. I think you’ll enjoy another post about the cost of private school, if that is a consideration.
If you’re happy with renting forever, that is cool as well. However, I would say over 80% of people who have children no longer want to rent because they want to have more control and stability.
Who knows the future. But it’s worth planning for it.
San Fran sounds like a real rip-off. I have been casing out the cost of living in the UAE (Abu Dhabi) and it’s a case of ‘mining the miners’ for professional employees living here. Rent for a 2-3BR apartment can easily go to $50K USD a year and other fees add up quickly, international school can easily run $20K per child. True there is no income tax as of yet, but the curse of being an American citizen means that you are taxed on worldwide income even as a non-resident (an honor that we only share with Eritrea) however in all fairness we do get the break of the foreign earned income exclusion at $103K of the lowest taxed income in 2018. So that means figure another 20% to be sent to Uncle Sam while all the other citizens are able to save that or use it for consumption. At some point one begins to question if it is even worth the effort…
Since you have a location independent business, that scores another point for packing up and moving to HI sooner rather than later.
Aloha,
Mike
I guess I’m one of the hated “coastal elites” these days and your numbers look roughly in-line with my experience. I assume that calling this “middle-class” is meant to be inflammatory (your post about the $500k family just scraping by I think is still one of the most viewed right?) but not too far off. I think your taxes are off, I didn’t run through the math but they seem at least $10k too low.
I’m lucky that my wife was able to stop working to raise our child so we save out on the child care expense and we spend less on food since we cook most nights. I wish our property taxes were as low as yours though, we pay 50% more in taxes on a house that is 20% cheaper, which eats up a lot of money each month. My wife loves clothes so we spend more than your budget there.
I also think your vacation budget is low and your 529 savings are low. 3 weeks of vacation means you’re spending only $2,600 per week/vacation. I suppose if you are driving rather than flying that might be possible, otherwise airfare and hotel will eat that entire amount and you still have actual activities and food to pay for. With the 529’s saving $5k/year isn’t bad but if you’re making $300k you’re probably looking to pay for your child’s education and not saddle them with the burden of student loan debts. I don’t think putting away $400/month will be sufficient to get you there.
I’m with the other posters that find this post spot on. Virtually every number in it is very close for our household finances. A bunch of thoughts:
– People seem hung up on the $1.5MM house, but the example family has a lot of equity, and a very low mortgage rate. $4k a month is about right for a family living in an $800k home with approximately a 20% down payment and a 4% interest rate.
– Childcare is pretty spot on (for 1), but can quickly blow up the budget with 2. Even once children start elementary school, they will likely need some kind of before & after school care if both parents work.
– Some of the naysayers are massively out of touch on food. Sure, in single earner households, families might rarely eat take-out or go out to eat. But with two working parents, it might be common for no one to be home before 6:30 or 7pm. Sure, you can microwave something, maybe grill, make mac & cheese, pasta with jarred sauce, etc. But forget anything that requires preheating an oven, 15 minutes of prep, and 35 minutes of baking (unless you want your kids eating dinner at 8pm on a school night). So, for many of these families, pizza, fast-casual, or ethnic takeout is going to be a necessity. For a family of 4, you’re looking at $30-$50 a dinner. Let’s say you do that 12x per month at an average of $40, that’s $480 per month. Add in groceries, maybe 2x work happy hours for each spouse per month, coffee and lunch dates with coworkers, maybe eating out as a family 2-3x per month, and date nights 2-3x per month, and $2100 is probably about what a lot of dual-career families spend on food.
– I think $100 per month for property maintenance is low. In the suburbs, trees have to be trimmed, lawns cut and fertilized, landscaping mulched, exteriors power washed, gutters maintained and cleaned, driveways sealed, fascia painted, termite systems kept baited, irrigation systems maintained, and that’s just the exterior. I do a ton of this stuff myself but not everyone I know feels comfortable climbing up tall ladders.
– Maybe I missed it, but where are utilities in this budget? If they are included in entertainment, $500 per month might be low.
– People are jumping at a $700 per month car payment, but if you include maintenance and insurance for two cars, plus a car payment for one, that’s probably about right. Truthfully, it’s probably low.
– For us, the areas we save are on any kind of maintenance (I do it myself, including automotive) and by using points for vacations. But all of this stuff is a tradeoff between time and money. Families with dual incomes who make a fair amount of money generally have far less time than many commenters likely have. If you factor in the commutes that often come with coastal suburbs (let’s say 90 minutes per day, total), plus 10 hour workdays, plus 30 minutes getting ready in the morning (for many, it’s likely much longer), you’re looking at 12 hours per day dedicated to work. Figure you’re in bed for another 8 hours, that leaves 4 hours for everything else, including time with your kids. Not surprisingly, many people don’t want to spend that time cooking, mowing their lawn, cleaning toilets, or grocery shopping, so they outsource those tasks so they can instead help with homework, read to their kids, talk with their spouses, or watch netflix.
I agree. I found the budget to be more or less correct for a 2-parent, 1-child household. In our case, child-related expenses are a little higher (extra curricular activities, plus I would feel “underfunded” at only $400 per month in 529 contributions). Even where some details are a bit different, the outcome is about the same.
Another argument against buying property – $19,200 annual property taxes.
Financial Samurai: The return on rent is always -100%.
Me: The return on taxes is always* -100%.
*At least above $10,000 combined for state, local and property taxes.
Great Post. I keep an excel sheet based on Daniel Kahnemans happiness paper + COLA figures by state/city and for 2018, San Francisco, for a family of four, spit out an annual income of $301,593.00 (Nearly double the national figure for a family of four) to achieve day to day happiness. LA and NYC were lower though, $226k and $262k respectively.
@Solo Prosperity – Do you have a link to this excel sheet or resources to run these calculations myself. I will be making quite a few life changes/moves in the next couple of months and am interested in this.
That home that sold for 1.56M is crazy. There isn’t any space between your house and your neighbors!
This is very personal, but I would rather have a smaller lot and small older house in a fabulous area of the city near the beaches, parks, walkable to most places, great shopping, university, restaurants, clubs, entertainment, 15 minute drive maximum to anything, and 30 minutes to the airport and farms to buy produce in summer time, than have a large lot with sprawling house in the surburbs, but 60-90 minute drive into the city and have to do all my shopping by car at a mall. Other benefits of the city life, are much better property price appreciation, and good location for getting tenants to rent your rooms or basement suite. It’s often quieter too, as people do not have the barking dogs, the tractor lawn mowers, the building projects, the freeway noise from a mile away, chain saw, rifle ranges, gravel pits, and other industry contributing to the weekend “quiet”. You pay for location but you also have more property appreciation.
Spoiled Americans… Well, I don’t buy into these figures, but what do I know?
I’m the ultimate stealth wealther cheapskate. Despite living just north of NYC in an upper middle class suburb (All Alone! In a creepy 60 year old house!) my biggest money-gobbler is house tax at close to $12,000 a year. No mortgage. No expenses on “entertainment” as the local library offers plenty for free. And above all no kids or wife to feed or beat. Despite this, I’m living strictly on passive income (I pulled in just under $20,000 in the last year sitting on my ass doing nothing but worry about my furnace, my health, and Trump). I’m going over these FS numbers and scratching my head… $6,000 on baby/toddler things (brats, spoiled little brats! You know what I had to play with when I was a little brat? Legos, Lincoln logs, jigsaw puzzles–all second-hand! I made my own games!)… $6,000 on entertainment (you pay celebs to perform For you at home? How much does Paul McCartney charge per hour?)… $7400 for car payment? Dunno about you but my two old cars are paid for in full (not counting insurance and oil changes), and what’s this about a Bigger one being Safer? Oh, right a SUV (Stupid Urban Vanity) status vehicle which gobbles gas, emits greenhouse gases, and flips over on the highway, gotcha… $25,200 for Food? I mean fuel for the body? I mean… Once a week I go to a cheapo diner for a lunch/dinner that costs around $15. The rest of the time I’m eating home. Then again, I don’t smoke, drink, take drugs, or even drink soda anymore. You guys apparently eat at fine ristorantes and sip wine with your Russian caviar. You need it as part of your image.
Property maintenance and everything else I do myself which is what every able-bodied red-blooded American who doesn’t have ‘Entitled’ tattooed on is ass would do.
But again what do I know? I don’t even go to Starbucks or buy bottled water.
Or carry a phone with me.
My recommendation is the Living Stingy site for a more Realistic approach to surviving and thriving (even if the guy who runs it is gay and has a queer fixation on BMWs and golf carts!).
These numbers are, sadly, spot on when it comes to high COL areas such as NYC. Although I know many bankers & lawyers who can have the firm order their food and have it delivered to their office after they work X amount of hours (or stay past a certain time).
I know quite a few people that have their dinners ordered to work, they bring them home and eat dinner with their significant others, and then continue working. It may not seem like a lot, but a $40 seamless order stretched out over a year really starts to adds up. There’s always a way to hustle…
This is a great post! I, for one, appreciate the… shall I call it validation?… on monthly household expenses in the Bay area. I have found myself staring at my budget every few months, wondering why I was spending so much money and was there anywhere I could cut back? After looking at your budget list, I found that our budget was quite in line with it.
Here are just a couple of suggestions:
– I would increase the Car line to include maintenance.
– The Property Maintenance line needs to be higher. In these coastal cities, one is usually purchasing an older home that needs annual maintenance of some sort (house painting, roof repair, etc.), in addition to landscape maintenance and other such expenses.
– Clothing should be increased, particularly if there is a woman involved. :-)
Thanks for the well researched post.
The reality is retirement, let alone early retirement is a pipe dream for the vast majority. You can’t really argue with your numbers presented as a whole, but at best 20%-30% of the population that is in this situation…everybody else is “effed” or working until they croak/living a very modest retirement. Good attention grabbing title though for click bait!
Lots of commenters are saying this budget isn’t middle class. Now, my husband and I make nowhere near this much, but I don’t find these numbers totally outrageous. First off, that $300k quickly becomes only $170k after taxes and retirement contributions. It’s nearly cut in half already! Assuming you don’t get a pension and big Social Security fund in retirement, it’s about right, unless you want to work in retirement.
From there, expensive housing and higher SF prices are at play here. My parents made $170k ish while my sister and I grew up, but we were living in the Midwest and cheaper coastal cities with small populations. Trust me, we didn’t have luxuries. That budget was enough to send my sister and I to a public university and put a significant amount into retirement. My parents lived (and still do) in an older home currently worth about $200k. They bought it without a mortgage. Their income was enough to prevent taking on debt and to save for retirement, but our lives were absolutely ordinary. The biggest vacation we ever took was to Yellowstone. My parents drive Fords, Toyotas and Chrystlers. They never worried about money, but we had a pretty basic life. The only difference is my folks could save, invest and avoid debt. That’s why it’s worthwhile to try and build a decent income like that…if you use it on endless stuff and toys, your retirement is at risk (if you’re American, anyway).
We have a mortgage, but I’m trying to follow my parents’ example. Hopefully get out of debt and stay there. By the way, it’s a huge blessing from a child’s perspective to know my parents are prepared and spent their lives being wise with money.
These cost estimations seem pretty high for middle class, but it really depends on your definition of middle class. Nobody wants to admit that they *aren’t* middle class when they are easily upper class. In fact, a pre-tax income of $300,000 easily puts you in the top 5% of income earners for the entire U.S. population (as of 2016), so I’m very hesitant to say someone earning $300,000 is middle class. However, ignoring all of that, I think the home price is something that is throwing people off.
I live on Long Island, a very expensive part of New York. I can pay $750,000 for a house that sits on 1/3 of an acre in a very good (top 10%) school district, with roughly $15,000 – $18,000 in school/local taxes per year. The home will have a brand new kitchen, roughly 2,000 – 3,000 square feet, probably a semi-finished basement with a 4-6 car driveway/garage.
I can also pay $400,000 for a house that sits on 1/4 of an acre in a good (top 25%) school district and pay $7,000 – $11,000 in taxes. For a house that is 1,200 – 1,800 square feet, probably with a semi-finished basement and a 2 car driveway.
I can also go ham and buy a $1.5 million home that sits on 1-2 acres in a very good/elite (top 5%) school district, and pay $25,000 – $32,000 in taxes. The home will be completely custom, finished, and in perfect shape. Usually 6 bedrooms, 4-5 bathrooms throughout 4,000 – 6,000 square feet, multiple garages, and a driveway that can fit 10 cars.
Clearly, these homes are different. Where would you expect the “middle class” person to live? In this example, it’s obvious. The $400,000 person house.
But another thing to consider is what sampling bias we are imposing. You talk about being middle class for coastal cities. Coastal cities are so much more expensive than everywhere else in the country. Maybe you are “middle class” if you only earn $300,000 and decide to live in Manhattan. But you made the decision to own property in Manhattan. The only people (okay, not only, but I’d say the majority, most likely 99%) who actually own property in Manhattan are already upper class people. The same thing goes for those people in San Francisco. Most people who own property there are already in the top 5% of income earners in the country. Again, if you only make $300,000 per year, maybe you’re only “middle” class when you compare yourself to the 1%’ers who actually live in Manhattan/San Fransico, but it’s a dangerous comparison to make.
I was originally thinking of moving to California but I looked at the cost of living and its just too much. You definitely a high earner dual income. That’s why I decided to stay in the mid-west, its pretty easy to live off a single parent income. Also why would I ever pay 20k for property taxes. They city better be offering free car maintenance, house maintenance, and free messages half the year for 20k a year.
I really think you’re out of touch when you keep listing the people who make 300k or over.
Here are some statistics from bls on wages
– 2.4 Million Janitors, median salary $24k a year
-1.3 million post secondary teachers (they have Ph.D.’s), median salary 75k
– I’m an engineer with experience and I’ve applied to companies in silicone valley and none ever offered over $100k .
I can write an entire essay on how hard it is now for people in STEM especially the ones who want a Ph.D.
I definitely would love to read your essay and potentially host as a guest post on how you don’t think making $300,000 a year as a household as possible in a big city.
It’s always good to get different perspectives. Thanks and I hope you write it.
Sure I’ll write it. I’ll try to get it done by the end of the week.
Those of us who travel in these circles know for a fact that you not correct.
To point to some interesting data, I had occasion to review recent Statistics Canada data that made it clear that there are 200,000 households in Toronto that earn over $200,000 dollars. Readers, internalize that number. That is a vast concentration of earning power and, in some cases, actual wealth. That is a big reason why New York, SF, Boston, Toronto and other similar cities are priced the way they are. People want to live there and are willing, and in some cases, able to pay the freight, even if it sounds difficult.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
As an engineer, I spent a lot of time trying to find the appropriate tone for my commentary.
Instead, I’ll just ask you to presume that I mean what I say below in good faith and without rancor, so I can get my thoughts out.
So here goes.
This budget – while no doubt well-intentioned – explains all sorts of problems related to consumerism in modern American life.
Putting the ‘move somewhere cheaper’ argument on the shelf – which is a pretty good argument, really – the entire budget is predicated on a career-centered, child-outsourced and family-sparse mode of existence.
Perhaps most of your respondents are in this camp. But for those who aren’t, allow me to propose a much cheaper path.
1) Homeschool your children – you can kill $40K of expenses with that alone, more once the kids are older and you’re tempted to put them in a $50K/year private school
2) Get rid of what you think you need vs. what you truly need – Check out the USDA’s guide for food budgets and adjust yours accordingly. It will be easier with your wife (presumably) staying at home and making much cheaper, healthier meals. That’ll save another $10-15K a year while increasing your life expectancy
3) Get rid of “3 weeks of vacation” and replace with quality & quantity time with the kids
4) INCREASE your giving – If you can’t give more than a West Virginian evangelical who makes $12/hour and tithes, you’re doing it wrong
I’m happy to follow up with details and suggestions if anyone truly cares. But if not, at least I’d like the lurkers to know that even with high housing costs, you can absolutely, positively live on much, much, much, MUCH less than $300K a year. Even if you have (oh, hypothetically speaking) 8 children.
Cool. I’ve never seen a zero vacation solution. Especially after spending all that time homeschooling. Who will spend the hours homeschooling since both parents are working? Or how do you make up for the lost income if one parent homeschools?
Can you share your expenses and how many kids you have? What do you guys live? Thanks
Hi Sam,
First, thanks for responding. Love the blog – even when I vehemently disagree with it! So I’ll start out by saying I could absolutely, positively 100% be wrong about what I’m going to say. But at least I have hard data (Source: 10 years of tracking all of my spending/giving/saving, by category, in Excel) to back up my perspective.
Answering your direct question, vacations can be cheap. Very, very cheap. It depends on what you want to get from them. It also depends (which may be part of your expense) on whether you have family far away that you have to spend tremendous amounts of money just to locate yourself to see.
But the root cause question here is this: What do you value in life? What is most important? What next? How about the top 5?
Once you have those nailed down, your spending will follow. And you may have already done this in another post; if so, please refer me there and I’ll check it out.
For me, my value system drives a desire to spend as little as possible so that there is both financial cushion and the ability to help others significantly.
I also am blessed by the opposite of what most people have: a desire to declutter and get rid of just about anything that I don’t use, with a corresponding desire to make everything as efficient and cheap as possible.
So let me share my spending on categories for a recent year for which my spending was moderately above average.
Automobile: $3,481
– Gasoline was most of the expense (~$150/mo). Insurance was a decent chunk ($50/month) with a significant amount for maintenance ($75/mo). Repairs were negligible.
Charity: $49,985
– My primary charities are Churches & the poor. Most of the churches I support have significant benevolence funds that also help the poor, which is as it should be. I used a Donor Advised Fund (Fidelity’s is amazing and has a low initial deposit requirement) to minimize my tax liability and maximize the ability to give.
Child Care: $4,495
– One child in diapers ($30/mo). Use Kirkland brand and Huggies, since the latter often have crazy sales/rebates that took the cost per diaper in the single cents. Above-average spend on toys & games ($125/mo) because I have a ton o’ kids, they like games and I use them to teach them math/stats/probability concepts. Overspent on Christmas this year ($1,000 total); future years I budget $100/child. They loved their gifts just as much in past/future years – even in years where I spent half as much. I put my life insurance ($50/mo) in this category since if I had no kids, I’d have no life insurance.
Education: $9,494
For 7 children. A quarter of this alone is for piano lessons. Since we homeschool, this demonstrates a pretty efficient level of expense: about $1,400 per child. I expect this to rise modestly as the younger children get older, offset by the older children leaving the house and/or entering college.
Entertainment: $1,188
Music and movies total $73. Pandora music ($48) was the majority. We don’t watch TV, when we rent we use a local video store or Redbox ($1/night). Vacation spending was a significant part of the rest ($50/month). One trip to visit a friend’s farm. One trip to visit in-laws. No spending on hotels due to mileage cards signed up for (Thanks Marriott and IHG!) or staying with relatives.
Food: $15,756
Eating out was $2,064 ($175/mo). This includes Eating Out when on the road – we mostly pack a cooler with sandwiches, fruits, veggies, nuts and other reasonably healthy foods. Once in a while, we’ll go for ice cream but given our family size, it will usually be a McDonald’s $1 cone. This year, there was a 50 cent Frosty special (score!) so we hit that a few times. Cost each time for 10: $5. Spent an embarrassingly large amount of eating out on… coffee. About $400. We shifted to home coffee 80% of the time in the years following to save a few hundred bucks.
Home food was $13.5K. Per person it was about $140 a month. This includes everything bought at a grocery store – shampoo, garbage bags, toilet paper, etc. Costco was our friend here – cheap in bulk. Sales are great too – there are no double or triple coupons, but around holidays there are great deals. Aldi’s is also amazing, especially for staple items.
(continuing in next post so that your spam filter doesn’t think I’m trying to kill your site)
Awesome charity number! Wow, and 7 children! Amazing. Thanks for sharing! What is it you do?
(continued from last post… hope they post in proper order!)
Health Care: $10,100
Premiums were almost half this total. Got a gym membership for $300 a year by negotiating – best money I spent in this category. There were a couple medical issues for my family which together cost ~$4,000. Some basic doctor & dentist visits, combined with prescriptions, eye exams, glasses for two (Zenni Optical is great here) and two dental issues (boys like to play rough) rounded out the bunch.
Housing: $14,203
Gas/electric/internet/water/sewer/phone ($500/mo), home insurance & taxes ($325/mo), furnishings ($2,000), supplies ($2,000), repairs ($500)
Notable here: no house payment due to aggressive paydown of home debt. That saves at least $12,000 a year.
Miscellaneous: $925
All other stuff I couldn’t figure out where to put. Gift for non-immediate family were the vast majority. Postage was a little over $100. Everything else was < $200.
Savings: $75,138
Total spend (excluding Charity): $61,644
Charity: $49,985
Savings: $75,138
Total dollars in (after taxes): $186,767
So I spend about $1 out of every $3 after tax dollars, give about $1 out of every $4 and save the rest of $2 out of every $5.
————————————————————————————–
Note that I make about 4x the median household income, but live as though I make slightly more than the median.
So for those who 1) Keep their charitable giving low and 2) Who can live frugally but not miserly while 3) Having fewer kids (99% of US households have fewer than 8 kids)….
…..there is a very, very strong opportunity to live on much, much, much less than $300,000. Without being deprived, although without a lot that most people spend money on.
I suppose this is just a case of differing values and priorities. One priority that is very admirable is your charitable giving – something I’d like to do better at. On the other hand, I value good schools (I think it’s important that my child(ren) are influenced by other educated adults besides our family who can teach them things that I can’t), travel (I live for our adventures), skiing, club sports, fully funding college accounts, etc. These things are expensive, and in my mind, part of a good life for our family, and I wouldn’t want to give them up to live on a $62,000 per year. Moreover, we’re around enough wealthy people to know that there’s a pretty big difference from how they live and how we live, which is why I agree with the premise of the post that $300,000 in annual income is more of a middle class existence a HCOL area. At a $300,000 income with kids, you probably still have to make many financial trade offs (personally, it’s no luxury cars, careful with clothing budget, never fly first class, try to eat in as often as possible).
You can have (about) anything you want, but you can’t have everything you want.
If you want your children influenced by other adults, you can easily – very easily – do that through homeschooling. And at a higher level of diversity than in a classroom where they will be interacting with overwhelmingly education majors. And save hundreds of thousands of dollars over their childhood doing so.
If you want travel, you can do that too. You just can’t go wherever you want, whenever you want, as often as you want. You can buy off-season. You can go to exotic but not-as-popular locales. You can subscribe to travel deals – this past week, a round trip flight to Ecuador was $300. Previously, it was $350 to Amsterdam. If you’re in a HCOL area, the deals on flights are even better.
You can do skiing, sports, etc. but you can’t do everything. You can’t spend thousands on travel leagues and coaching when your kid will (probably) never get a scholarship to pay back that investment. You certainly can do pick up games for next to nothing, go skiing at off-times and at less glamorous places, etc.
The big problem here is a shifting of the goalposts. For example, “never flying first class” – other than a sympathy upgrade, I’ve never flown first class. And I’ve been a C-level exec for a billion dollar organization. “No luxury cars” – I’ve driven a 10+ year old Corolla for decades now, upgrading once to my current 12 year old model which I’ll keep for another 8 years, God willing. Insurance is dirt cheap, I get 30+ mpg and by doing the preventative maintenance I’ll never have any significant repair expenses.
First class, even once, is overwhelmingly an upper class experience. Travel of the kind you’re discussing is an upper class experience. Skiing, fully funded college accounts, etc. are upper class experiences. Being a new car, although even the lower classes do it, is a luxury experience. Sam talked about the 1/10 rule for cars – he’s absolutely right. But how many people who make $250K would stoop to ‘only’ buy a $25K car?
There’s nothing wrong with any of your interests per se, but pretending that these aren’t lower echelons of the upper class is just diluting the definition of middle class to the point where it means nothing. And trying to do all of them? Definitely upper class.
If you want a middle class life – by which I would mean financial security and stability except in the most extremely unlucky of circumstances – then you can do it easily on $100,000 a year, even in San Francisco. You may not FEEL middle class because marketing, your peers and your neighbors are going to encourage you to live larger than you can really afford, but you are absolutely able to do so.
The choice, really, is yours.
I agree with pretty much all of the above, except that I think you define middle class more narrowly than I do. For me, middle class might mean something like, you have enough to live the “American Dream” (means different things for different people) if you are careful with your money, work hard and make reasonable trade offs. It also means, in part, being able to provide your children with the same upbringing that you had (assuming you perceive that you had a middle class upbringing). If family bonding time, based on your lived experiences in your family of origin, included things like skiing together on the weekends (and maybe brown bagging your lunches because those resort food prices are just silly), and if part of childhood for you included an opportunity to be a competitive athlete (with no pressure to get a scholarship through your sport, because you knew your parents had you covered), and living in a good school district where you were exposed to new and good things and you and/or some of your peers got accepted to top colleges, then these things are part of what it means to be middle class in America to you and you want to provide them to your own family. Our acquaintances who regularly fly first class, send their kids to private k-12 school, drive range rovers, eat at expensive restaurants, and wear designer threads – they are the upper class. And our other acquaintances who fly private, live in mansions, have second (third, and fourth) homes – they are the wealthy. I suppose that’s all up for interpretation, and reasonable people differ on how they spend and save, but the income and budget in the post above for a family with kids in SF or another HCOL area looks middle class to me (though maybe “upper middle class” would be a more appropriate definition).
Orthros, Well done, well done.
Thank you for contributing a modest and meaningful suggestion at life choices to this conversation.
I read Sam’s post more as “How to make 300K a year and *not* become financially independent” as a means to show opportunity for improvement and cost reductions. Whereas most readers read it and immediately used it as self justification as to why they can’t save.
Raising kids is as (in)expensive as you want it to be. Private, public, home school. Private, public (in state), community college or gasp trade school.
Be weird, be different, be modest and be financially independent.
Sam, how about writing a follow up on how to reduce the budget in this article so more people can become financially independent like us?
Love your attitude. That is exactly how folks can view this post to achieve financial independence sooner, rather than later.
“Be weird, be different, be modest and be financially independent.” – Words to live by.
I will write a follow up post about solutions to reduce the budget and increase the income for folks stuck in such a situation.
Thank you for encouraging us to give more and spend less regardless of your situation!
I do not think the numbers are way off. We live in SF bay area in east bay which is more “affordable”. A similar sized townhouse would be about 900k to 1 M. You would have to deal with hour plus commute each way (assuming you take BART). We are lucky to make close to 400k/year, but that level of income is quite common in bay area, esp double income households working in hi tech. For us the food, clothing, car cost are far lower than projected here. But our vacations are far more expensive. We take 3 vacations: Spring, Summer and Winter breaks. A summer trip to France can easily cost 20k per family. But on the other hand, I am still driving my 1997 Nissan Sentra I purchased right after college in 99. We shop for clothes at Target or online and its not very frequent.
Having said that, I don’t think 300k is middle class by any stretch of imagination.
Interesting that the responses split between “you’re out of your tree” and “this is totally on the ball”. Suggests your readership are definitely skewed towards the top end of the income scale, but then there’s still a reasonable number of folks for whom 300k is an insane household income and spending 25k/year on food similarly egregious.
For me these amounts seems toppy and indeed symptomatic of excessive consumerism, which drives misery because of the wages needing to be earned to pay for this lifestyle. Cutting back on the eating out, the SUV and the 1.5m house would, amongst other areas, help to bring this back to reality.
I’d like to see how a budget for the SF median household income of 96k works out.
I always hate these posts. You don’t need 300k to live a middle class life even in SF. We know plenty of people who do it for far less. These posts always insist that things that are luxuries (like 3! week vacations) are necessities. You live in the Bay Area—that’s already a vacation destination. There’s more in a days drive than most people dream about in a lifetime. There’s also a ton of free entertainment. And daycare only lasts 5 years.
First time commenter.
While my personal experience can’t confirm that $300,000 leads to a comfortable middle class existence in a high COL city (as I’ve never earned that much), I can certainly say that my family’s $130,000 annual income certainly doesn’t cut it. I was very frustrated with Sam’s post last week about how buying is always better than renting, and his assumption that one could just “save up a 20% downpayment.” In my experience, it’s just not going to happen for me here in DC anytime soon. My income (I support my husband, who’s home taking care of our son) just cannot cover rent, retirement savings, etc., and then still have enough left over to save 20% for a downpayment on homes in this area. You can find a nice home here maybe in the $800,000 range, but that’s still $160,000.
So I have to prioritize, and housing and vacations are where I save. We fully fund my 401k, Roth IRAs for both my husband and me, and put away a few grand annually in my son’s 529b. After that, I have a few thousand a year leftover for after tax investments/savings, but that’s not totaling $160,000 anytime soon.
So I’m looking to move. But as a Federal employee in a very specialized area, it’s hard finding jobs that fit my skills in the heartland. Still, I’m not giving up!
In interested in how you find an IRA on top of a fully funded 401K. I thought that was not allowed.
IRAs and 401(k)s are separate. If you qualify for each, then you can fund both up to the limit. I’m not exactly sure where this surprisingly common belief comes from, but it’s inaccurate. Fund away!
You can fund an IRA, but can’t deduct at higher incomes. Maybe that causes the misperception? And Roth IRAs do have income limitations for funding.
Interesting discussion…if it takes being in the top 2-4% of all earners to raise a family, how the heck is anyone going to retire? Feels like a retirement crisis is on the horizon…
Great post that makes sense to anyone living in prime parts of Manhattan, SF, LA, Boston, Miami, Seattle, DC, etc, but may seem out of touch to those living in other parts. The numbers are roughly accurate although there is a wide range. For ex, the suburbs of Boston and prime Manhattan lifestyles also have vast economic differences. I would actually move the numbers up for prime areas.
However, those living in the middle of the country may understand this better knowing that most of the rest of the world feels this way about the US. Many in Asia and Africa live on $1-2/day and to them, someone making $30k/yr seems insane and is EXTREMELY wealthy not middle class.
For ex, when my father moved my family to the US in the 1980s, his original plan was to buy 1 kitchen appliance every year. Toaster on yr 1, oven yr 2, etc, because where we lived, only someone really wealthy could afford all of these. Of course, once we bought our first house, it had everything in it. He was shocked that he could afford all of this as a nuclear engineer, relatively easily. He joked to me this year that he hit all of his 10 yr goals in a month when he moved here.
Also, I would like to add that if you can still buy a 2,000 sq ft house with 3 bdrms 3 bas in SF for $1.5m, real estate is still dirt cheap on a global city scale and you should buy. You would not be able to buy that in prime Manhattan for twice as much.
Coastal living is definitely expensive and I can imagine how it’s hard for folks who’ve never lived and worked in these areas to imagine and understand. For me the lifestyle and expenses are worth it for now. Great analysis and examples!
$7200 a year on Entertainment, yet only $2400 on Charity?
I think semantics may be causing some of the disconnect here. The title of the piece indicates that 300K gets you a middle class lifestyle, not that it is a middle class income. 300K isn’t a middle class income, either nationally or in these coastal cities. 300K near the top of the upper class. If you want to live like upper class, then 300K will do it almost anywhere in the country other than these few ridiculously overpriced cities. If you want to FEEL like you are living a middle class life, on an upper class income, then take your 300K to San Francisco.
Financial Samurai- hope u read this. Your analysis is spot on. I used to live in Cali and sold my place and moved to Chicago. It’s much cheaper and I think by the time I’m 40 I could have the option of retiring. Impossible in SF even making >$300 k / year. I think what people miss is that money should give u options but in expensive cities it takes a lot more money to get those options. I’m looking at investing in real estate here in the Midwest but I’m concerned bc there’s A LOT of space in heartland America. Rents in Chicago actually fell y/y and looks like they’ll be down again. Overbuilding! I want to invest with Realty Shares – they apparently will have a new fund soon. Any thoughts on this? I was reading online that their performance hasn’t been good .. a lot of complaints about returns being under comparable REITs and some investments not panning out. Thanks!
I would stay away from Chicago real estate. With rents declining and huge property taxes, the situation doesn’t seem healthy.
I updated this post with the latest rent declines in the major cities: https://www.financialsamurai.com/why-i-sold-my-rental-home/
The chart is towards the bottom.
Do you have any links to these articles showing Realty Shares investments haven’t been working out? I have a decent amount of money invested with them now and have been getting my distributions but they are all in the early stages and not close to exits.
Never lived in SF, but spent 13 years in the Bay Area (Fremont, Santa Clara). Our income fits your profile, but our expenses were significantly less until we chose to buy the big house on the hill side with the pool. Our savings rate was approximately 50% until we bought the big house, approximately 33% after purchasing the house. Living in the normal house, I felt very middle class, and comfortable. Living in the big house and spending starting to approach your totals, I was very aware that I lived more comfortably than most and would consider myself upper middle class.
A couple other observations:
-I now live in a small city near the East Coast and my home insurance premium is 75% more than my home insurance in Fremont for a similar sized home. (Sink hole coverage is a large portion of that, but insurance rates are higher here)
-Many of our friends in the Bay Area had incomes and expenses similar to your example. The difference in savings rate was really about life-style choices. Expensive dinners, professional sporting events, shows, etc. add up fast.
Getting consistently above 300k networth increase per year is a preferred goal for me. Family Household income plus networth increase above 300k already has has been done. Haven’t done household income above 300k, by itself. My preference would be for networth increases, by itself, to be consistently above 300k. Think I could do that before the household number. Consistent 300k networth increase in one year is a nice goal.
I don’t live in SF and I’d be a bit shell shocked if I needed 300k to do well. However, I don’t disagree with the above example but there are some clear luxuries that aren’t really middle or upper middle class. A luxury SUV? It can’t be a used pilot/Highlander it has to be a Swedish 60k SUV ? The food budget is out of control. Moreover, what’s the point of having a remodeled kitchen in a 1.5 million dollar home if as another poster above replied “parents aren’t home till 730 so there’s no time to preheat an oven and make a meal”.. it sort of feels the point of living is being missed. If having to eat take out every night at 8pm because there’s no time to cook or enjoy your kitchen is happiness then that is sad. But hey who am I to judge? There is more then one way to live life and hopefully be happy.
For those who doubt Sams numbers but don’t live in bay area, we do live here and his numbers are right in the ballpark. Our spend is ~$13K/month, and we don’t even have cable or Netflix! Our only kid goes to public school, we cook most of our meals, we have 2003 minivan + 2005 prius. The only extravagant things we do is 3 vacations a year which costs ~$20K/year, but we don’t stay at four seasons or eat in nice restaurants, more than half of the $20K are just airline tickets + car rental + cheapest airbnb we can find, and even if we vacation in northern Cal or Yosemite, it wouldn’t be that much different because of the high costs in Cali,
So where do the money go? They’re very similar to Sam’s itemized numbers. Yeah we can cut out the vacations all together and replace them with day trips and staycations, for the next 20 years. Then why live here at all? Might as well move somewhere half the costs, with must less interesting jobs, and retire early. But unfortunately that’s not something we want to do.
I live in San Francisco and a 300K combined family income is so common. Two decent Tech jobs and a 15% bonus is all you need. My household income is just over 350K and while I’m comfortable, I don’t feel anything but middle class. It is expensive to live here so your money simply doesn’t take you very far.
The traditional definition of middle class also had been shifting…It historically has meant home ownership, savings, vacations, health care coverage etc. With the widening gap in income equality I think more people really are working class and just don’t realize it.
Great post Sam!
Bay Area- two kids -we’re at 10K/mo, 5K of that is childcare ($2400/mo, both under 2 yrs). We are super frugal, except on daycare spending. We want the “best” for our kids, but are seriously reconsidering what value the fancy daycares are actually adding to our lives. We lived comfortably at 5K/mo before having kids.
When I was pregnant with my second, I got many ugly comments on how we could afford “a second” when costs were so high. I didn’t expect to hear that, but thats what people implied around me, and it makes me want to earn so much “more money” just to prove them wrong. Assholes.
What we’ve found is you got to make the system work for you if you want to keep your costs low, you cant scale with 1+ kids linearly just like you did say when you were single.
1. Live in flip in a way that you make an extra 300-400K every two years.
2. House hack or downsize or rent if you’re desperate to lower expenses.
3. Au pair for childcare or an option thats not the best of the best high end daycare
4. Real Estate Professional Status so you can get some tax benefits on one high income earner while the other stays home or works part time.
I find all these replies interesting. We do live in a divided country in so many ways don’t we?
The more I visit SF and interact with many of the people who live there, the less I care for the place.
Do people really challenge and opine at pregnant families as to how dare they have a child because of cost? REALLY!!! Is that what kind of society is there?? If that is the case, the place can’t drop into the ocean quick enough.
I also find all this tacky commentary about how “I only want what is best for my child” and “my child is everything to me” be over the top. You will just be raising spoiled brats who think they are the freakin center of the universe. Worse case – they won’t be able to function.
You have a duty to raise strong, willed, emotionally intelligent people who can fend for themselves and not be taken advantage of by others. This can be done with $30,000/yr or $300,000.
Reading this thing over again…scary stuff. This isn’t a Middle Class Lifestyle (but maybe I’m just behind the times since I live in the past).
Numerous responses about “Property Maintenance” – For me it’s about $0 despite living in a 60 year old home. Why? Because I DON’T KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES! Just because Mr. Cool next door has lawn guys come 2x each Week doesn’t mean I do. I do everything myself. Roof maintenance? Gutters? It’s all self-maintaining for me! I’m going on 20 years without a new roof–you get a new roof every year? Probably, as you hire people to hand-polish your pylons and custom paving stone driveways! Don’t forget, Mr. Jones Esquire next door has Crews come to blow off each and every leaf and pick up each and every twig! You gotta do that, too, to be Accepted as an equal! No excuses!
Oh, and did I mention that YOU DON’T NEED A LAWN! Try it sometime. Natural ground coverings which grow via Rain! Wow, what a concept! Oh, but you’ll be the oddball on the block (like yours truly) but who cares? It’s Natural, it’s what the Environment is all about! No poisons, no fertilizers, no annoying twits jumping around with chainsaw-loud machinery. Peace, quiet, and nature’s animals love it as they should. A few weeds here and there getting a little high, take out a push lawn mower once a month or two. Do it yourself, you lazy bastards! Don’t act like King $hit and proclaim “that’s Work for Peasants! Send in the serfs!” Around here people don’t have acres of grass in any case. They have Strips and they wouldn’t Dare be caught doing “ghetto work” associated with Leroy, Muhammand, and Pedro (yes, they’re closet racists!).
Hundreds for Clothing? All that money spent Per Year? Dunno about you lot but I wear the same clothes over and over again–across years, even Decades! See, I’ve this thing in my cellar called a Washing Machine. It takes out the dirt and the stuff looks like new. So long as the garments are not ripped or (over-)stained you can use them over and over again! Wow! What a concept! (I wish I could do this with the waste material I excrete!) But you’ll probably hit me with Fashions going out of Style and all that other yuppie crap you sincerely require to feel Accepted in the Non-Thinking Group-Mind called Conformity. I feel sorry for you, honestly I do. $0 on clothes for me for the past year. Just think of all the money saved there–money making money via interest! Wow! What a concept!
Childcare can be $0 as well if you take my advice and don’t have kids. Kids are The fastest way to go broke in our society. The greater the number, the faster. But, hey, it’s your choice. I’m the guy bitching about overpopulation all the time being one reason for the fall of humanity. But that’s just my opinion so I’ll just shut up now.
Consumerism. Sheeple. Follow the herd, programmed by commercials, TV, movies (Product placements!). Comparing yourselves to your neighbors. No wonder everyone’s screwed in this country today. Weak crybabies. Take responsibility for your actions and SAVE Money if you want to become financially independent like yours truly here. You follow the $$$ distribution here, you’re not going in the right direction.
OK, here’s what you don’t want to read…
Let’s go back in time (wow, what a concept!) to a younger, more mature, less spoiled, less “sheeple-ized” Eff Ess… Before status and entitlement addled his brain–Before The Disease took hold:
https://www.financialsamurai.com/your-car-as-the-ultimate-status-symbol-for-insecure-people/
I rest my case, dear readers!
You see, since then, Eff Ess has…changed.
I can only imagine he’s been infected or bent by his mate. I’ve seen things like this happen before.
(That’s one reason why I’m not married–the other reasons include social phobia, alienation, and erectile dysfunction, as well as a fear of being Mined by a gold-digger, and my tremendously high standards of perfection required in female organisms which don’t exist in this reality!)
Anyhow:
Eff Ess must be Saved!
If he cannot be parted from his mate or his offspring, I suggest we create a Save Eff Ess Fund…
I’ll give you guys an address where you can mail your checks to…
I remember talking to some people at work about my stay-at-home mom friends that live off their husband’s low six figure salaries and everyone was appalled that they could survive (we don’t even live in SF or NYC). This is definitely the mentality on the coasts.
Where do people come up with the $600k for a down payment on the $1.5 million house to have a $900k mortgage?
Hi Jay,
It takes time. What we did was live and flip. Bought a starter home and sold 2 years later, bought a bigger place and sold 2 years later etc. Luckily the appreciation worked for us and we have made money each time to off set selling costs. We also worked with the same realtor who gave us a discount for using him several times. We bought our first place in 2001 and we are in our 4th home worth over 2 million but we only have a 760,000 mortgage at 3.275%.
Thanks for the response Terri, that’s great. I just seems like such a chore to save that amount given you’re already living in a high cost location. I live in the Midwest so we don’t see that type of appreciation but also don’t have the dips when things go the other way.
Yes, I agree. The first house is not your dream house. I bought in a suburb at first (I learned that commuting is a killer and would do anything to avoid), and slowly moved closer to one of the best areas (paid $900K, with $300K down, now assessed over $3M.) If you have two young people earning good salaries, just cut expenses to the bone, and save everything, then buy when you see something that will appreciate. When it happends fast, it will not seem like a chore, it will be exciting. Always try to get something with a “mortgage helper”. Have foreign student boarders, anything to get ahead. Do not have babies until you have a house. If you do all this when you are first starting out, do not ever get into debt (except for mortgage debt), you will make that snowball that will keep on rolling for the rest of your lives. Or you can do it the other way, and spend when you are young, go into debt, and then spend your entire lives living a high middle class life, working, commuting, not having time to cook dinner for kids, and making do with a 3 week vacation. Now that is a chore.
I have been preaching compounding effect all my life, and it works. Every few years your net worth can double (rule of 72 is divide your average annual gain into 72 for the number of years to double, so that $500,000 that took so long and so much work to save, doubles to $1M just before you retire). Anyway, this can be done on much less than $300,000 a year (especially if a lot of your income is business, rental, and investment income). On $300,000, it is easy. With two, the work to maintain a house and cook meals is minimal (I am single and I find it easy and fun). Don’t succumb to lifestyle creep. Personally I would rather spend money on travel than eating out every night just to avoid 10 minutes of cooking. When you buy cars and houses, think about upkeep costs. Be practical. Now I can afford luxuries but still rather travel than buy $5,000 appliances, luxury cars, etc.
Denver should be added onto “expensive coastal cities” category. It’s gotten crazy here with property prices in particular. With unemployment so low here, inflation is being pressured upwards at possibly a higher rate than the rest of the country. I heard recently that for the first time in a while there were more people leaving the Denver/Boulder area than coming in. However the mountains and large, cosmopolitan city living offer a great alternative to coastal living.
I come from Los Angeles, and I get the difference. You can still technically find a dump of a house in the Denver metro area for less than $300k, but they’re far and few between. But the trajectory of property prices is concerning nonetheless.
However if anyone’s reading this, and considering moving to Denver …. don’t do it. It sucks. It’s not worth it, and we’re full anyways.
I moved to Denver almost 2 years ago and It’s funny that everybody here sounds just like you. Really crazy that people living in a major metropolitan think that nobody should move here and feel entitled since they were “here first”. Denver housing is expensive to buy but I rent in the heart of downtown and manage just fine.
Well Alchemist, you’re right about the ‘entitled’ vibe being unbecoming. I was going more for a lighthearted, tongue-in-cheek attempt. I am welcoming of all, and frankly the influx is great if you’re a property owner … but can also be frustrating for a local of meager means who in other parts of the heartland might be able to purchase a modest home. I get that frustration and empathize. Sometimes life just ain’t fair.
Colorado native here! Fun to get some local perspective. Denver is so crazy changed that people who are saying don’t move here most likely haven’t lived here that long.
I grew up on the western slope of the state where all the true outdoor fun is had! My folks were split so my dad lived in Denver in the 90’s. It was not a massive hurdle to own a SFH in a core neighborhood. That is no longer the case. I absolutely love Colorado and being in Denver with all the changes has been fun.
This city is no doubt on the map though and I would not hold off buying if you want a peice of Colorado.
I purchased what I could as early as I could after getting out of school and am happy I did.
The reality I face now is does it make sense to buy the second one and keep the first as rental. Or sell the first to buy the second and invest in better income producing properties as everything has appreciated so much?
Good stuff enjoy Colorado, go see a red rocks show this summer.
SF is pretty expensive. A few of my coworkers came from the Bay Area becuase of the high cost of living (home price, and high rent). A friend of mine just bought a ~1500sqft 3bd, 2ba – compete gut (it was a mess) for $1.9M up there. Yes, it’s in a nice neighborhood with a few rebuilt homes. But that same house would sell for $700k-800k (maybe 900k-1M if it was turnkey) here in San Diego.
That said, our household makes $320k (and still growing), but we don’t feel rich. Maybe upper middle class. Most/all of our friend would beg to differ since they make a fraction of what we do.
Income is a funny thing. Both our families came to the US with nothing, so my wife and I went from low income (assisted living) to high middle class in 40 years of our lives. After reaching each higher income bracket, we still don’t feel completely secure. We do donate more than we do in the past, but we still worry about saving for retirement, and college for two etc…
It’s crazy how some areas of the US are so very expensive. Now more than ever one should pay attention really hard to all matters in relation to finance:
– How to save;
– How to invest;
– Create new sources of income;
– How not to lose money on bad strategy.
With this sudden drop in value in ETFs of real estate (special US), maybe we have an opportunity to invest.
Great post Sam! I think you are missing CA-SDI – state disability insurance payments of 1K per person in taxes line. NY, PA has one as well which are mandatory. This will increase taxes by 2k. I can totally see someone spending at this level.
To add a personal perspective I live in San Mateo less than 30 mins from you. Here is the view from a savers perspective. We top at 90K in expenses. Major differences are:
Food $800 We go out once a week to places like chipotle/smash burger/The habit/Panera. Our bulk shopping is costco plus asian grocery stores. The remainder falls to Safeway/Lucky. I am not sure how one spends $2K per month unless it is completely organic and at whole foods + each date night costing $150. Please do post more on it, as this number is something I cannot absorb for median level.
Daycare $1700
Rent – $2800 Pure luck, Very slow increases over years.
Baby items – $150 – there are always crib like items but only 2-3 per year. so per month has not been that high number as you posted. plus it depends on individual.
Healthcare – FSA – 100 (atleats one earner has excellent plan/kaiser)
Dependant FSA- 5000 pre -tax PER YEAR. above the line savings of 2k.
Clothes – 100 (H&M, vanheussen in sales; carters/gymboree in sales)
Car – 300 (Hyundai/KIA/Ford – 2 year used)
Entertainment 250 (a museum membership allows 50% off at lot of places.)
I also would draw your attention to this user case study post on frugalwoods from San Francisco. Some line items like rent/daycare are not possible but I would say a very frugal folk on their quest to FI. We got inspired.
http://www.frugalwoods.com/2017/09/13/reader-case-study-should-we-stay-in-san-francisco-or-should-we-go-now/
I think you have it pretty accurate. We are at the same number in Portland Oregon. Myself 200, Wife 100. Both Engineers. 3 young Kids. You could nit pick at numbers here and there…but its not worth it. Many ways of doing it but I fully agree….If you want to retire well and on time, own your own home and help/fully fund the kids through college, you need this kind of money. We are on a 15yr home load and save a bit more than your example but that is primarily because we went live in childcare and a lot of home cooking. Bottom line….We will W2 330K next year and I don’t feel well off. I’m comfortable. But we both work hard. Too tired to shop!
I think you’re low balling the childcare. How are they doing 25 hours per week if both parents work? Not to mention a weekly date night. For us to swing childcare at home it would be $15/hour * 40 hours (we are lucky and don’t really have a commute to speak of, plus slightly staggered hours). Add a date night you’re looking at 42 – 45 hours per week. That’s about $2,700/month here in Denver, and I think that’s low with nanny taxes, vacation, etc. which is expected. You can go the Au Pair route and cut that to $1,500 + expenses per month, but it’s too big of a risk IMO. We have chosen to go the daycare route, which is $2,250/month for two, which is a great deal (I choke as I write that since it’s $27,000 annually). Kids are not cheap but they are worth it!!
All I can say is “ouch”. We made no where near $300,000 a year, but I have to say we have accumulated the amount you said required for retirement for maximum happiness on much lower earnings, but we are in our 60s. But, I am waiting for the stock market to go up a little further before derisking a bit more. – Thanks Facebook.
My house is crazy though. We live about 40 minutes south of San Francisco definitely not in the high-cost city of S.F.. I purchased my house for 121,000 dollars in 1984, and now it’s going for almost $950,000 according to Zillow. Redfin has it higher. We just received a notice from Redfin stating houses in our area have increased by 37.2% since 2017. What the heck is driving that? At the height of the housing bubble, our house was 650,000. So is there another bubble around the corner? If there is I wonder where it would come from since credit standards are much tighter? The property taxes on a house this expensive will be higher than my mortgage was (when I had a mortgage). We go to open houses, and they are flooded with prospective buyers in even the tiniest of homes.
I am selling some stock in hopes to by a rental property near my son. Homes there go around 400-500,000 dollars.
As a life long resident of SF and still living in the city, a $300K income sounds about right for being middle class around these parts. In terms of expenses, we do not spend as much as what you put on here Sam. For food, spending over $25K seems a bit too much even for a family of four living in SF. We are a family of three and fortunately we don’t spend even half that amount and thats with groceries and going out to eat combined.
For entertainment, over $7K(around $600 a month)seems too high as well. I think splurging to watch a sporting event or broadway play is fine but it shouldn’t cost that much unless you do it constantly.
Child expenses at $6K($500 a month) can be reduced by providing more books than toys. Babies can get attached to a book as early as 12 months based on my experience. Plus you can get borrow children’s books from the library in which they can get free entertainment with the weekly baby rhythm time they provide.
All the other expenses you have seems pretty spot on. Your right about childcare expenses, their is no way to get around it unless you have family close by that is willing to take care of the kid(s).
A great demonstration of why geographic arbitrage works. No way I’d stay someplace like that long term. Too hard to build wealth.
Always fun to look at other people’s budgets, even if they’re hypothetical. Some of my expenses are higher and some are lower but back when we had a mortgage that was about what we were spending. We didn’t (and don’t) pretend it’s a middle class lifestyle though. The median household income in this country is $55K. What they can afford is a middle class lifestyle. Assuming they have to pay taxes and save, that would suggest that spending more than 3X+ that amount is far from middle class, no matter what is put as the title of the blog post.
I’ve lived on $20K, I’ve lived on $50K, I’ve lived on $120K, I’ve lived on $200K and I’ve lived on $1M+. You can do a lot on $300K, even in a big city.
A lot of people have mentioned geographic arbitrage, but I’m not convinced that’s the answer for many families making $300k+.
For a doctor, software programmer, Youtube content creator, or someone like Sam, sure. But for the vast majority of us working in corporate America, or for the government, I’m not so sure it’s feasible. Remember, the majority of these families will be dual-income (way more earners making $150k than $300k). That means both spouses have to be able to either find a job in podunk, Arkansas, or work remotely.
In my case I do work remotely (and have for years), but my wife is absolutely unable to, and never will be. So we’re stuck on the coast in a hyper HCOL area.
Sure, there are the lucky people making decent salaries as Target or 3M executives in Minneapolis, FedEx execs in Memphis, or P&G execs in Cincinnati. But the vast majority of jobs paying $150k+ are going to be located in HCOL areas (which is how those areas got so expensive in the first place). I’m just not so convinced they’re all that portable. I know a lot of people who have asked their NYC firms if they could relocate to Burlington, Vermont to be closer to the family, and got a big fat no in response…
Agree. Most jobs cannot be done remotely.
I still don’t understand why people live in these coastal cities. I kind of get California because of the weather, but paying all that money to live near NYC I do not get. My house is worth $240k right now. It’s just over 10 years old, 2700+ square feet of living space on a good sized lot in a spectacular school system, and close to the city.
Or, I could get some 40 year old 1600 square foot house in poor shape outside of manhattan for $800k and spent an hour commuting each way to work? No thanks.
It’s interesting how people from the Midwest and people without kids hate this post and hate this budget. Why can’t they understand that life is different with kids and in higher cost areas of the country? I don’t think people on the coast hate the people who live in the heartland.
In the heartland, with $300k, people can live like the wealthy and in a huge mansion. It’s just hard for some of them to understand that $300k in the coast are just comfortable middle class. Housing and childcare are the biggest expenses in the coast. $2500 per month is the cheapest daycare I can find in the Boston area. $1M only can get you a 1700 square foot townhouse. $250 in HOA fees, Groceries for fresh foods are $700 for 2 adults and a toddler. Car insurance is about $125 for 1 car etc….Sam’s numbers are pretty close and spot on. He actually forget, gift giving is also a bug Expense category.
The cash flow line item at the end is for miscellaneous, Which includes gift giving.
Wow $25K for food,or $1K per month per person including baby. I’m just trying to stay under $400/mth per person (including dining out) in a high cost of living west coast city.
Dining out is killing you.
I’m looking at this month’s budget, we’ll be about $160/person for groceries. That’s buying decent food, we don’t eat ramen. Our restaurant budget I have cut to virtually nothing, so it’s not really covering for a smaller grocery bill. Eating out for me was the easiest way to trim fat off the top.
+1 re dining out as budget killer.
We are a dual income, Outer Sunset San Francisco family of 4 (the kids are under 5). Sam’s numbers are spot on. Childcare costs are killer, yes. And yes, we are exhausted. We started pressure cooking using a multi function device and it is a game changer. Solid frozen meat on the table in 30. Rice in 15, steel cut oats in 9. Our food costs have come down drastically by going out/taking out much less. Both time and money saved.
We got one of those recently, but freezer to plate I think I can get frozen chicken breasts done in 25 ;) It’s a great tool. Truly amazing to turn a frozen hunk of meet into soft food that quickly.
Often we’ll have either meat or some beans thrown together with rice and frozen vegetables. It costs almost nothing, and it doesn’t take a meaningful amount of time, so time is no excuse. So far this March our restaurant bill, which includes 100% eating out and even vending machines and coffee drive thru, is right at about $145 for 5 people. I’m proud of that and think we can stay within our $200 I budgeted for it. $800 for groceries, at least $50 of which is frozen blueberries (not kidding).
Eating out = budget killer
Trips to Target = budget killer
I buy 10 lb. boxes of blueberries at $22 each straight from the farm (no spray) and freeze enough for a year. It saves money and the blue berries taste much better than store bought and you never get a moldy one. Same for all the other summer fruit. Takes a couple of minutes in the evening to get a box into the freezer. You eat local summer fruit all year round.
I can make a tray of roasted chicken thighs (or pork chops or steak) with vegetables in 30 minutes tops (less for fish). For flavour, add any one or more of garlic, lemon, olive oil, ginger, salt pepper, fresh or dried herbs/spices. Preparation time 5 minutes. If I forget to thaw meat, I microwave for a minute.
I make coffee at home but that’s a big cost item for me even though I buy Kirkland espresso beans.
My blues cost me $3.40 lb frozen :( I don’t have the room to store them all, though. My freezer is full of venison :D
Giles, not much game in the city that you can hunt (although lots of deer, eagles, coyotes, the odd cougar, and other wildlife in and near the city). Although there is a bird sanctuary where some hunting of migratory birds is allowed. I am not up on hunting regulations but people that hunt deer or moose usually go “upcountry” once a year. My hometown on the prairies, people can easily hunt close to home, and when I visit, I enjoy BIL’s bounty. I have read that Canadians eat the highest proportion of wild foods (fish, clams, game, berries, mushrooms) of any country. Although many Canadians never eat any. Some people in my area (right in the heart of the city) forage in the parks for nettles, dandelions greens, fiddleheads, etc. Vancouver is actually pretty wild with sea and mountains and forest right around and in the city.
I am jealous of the venison. I grew up eating game (venison, all sorts of birds) and don’t get it often nowadays. I need second freezer for meat. Small one to tuck into a corner somewhere. Blueberries + venison = pemmican, the traditional food of natives on the prairies. You can’t trade money for that lifestyle.
Not a lot of wild game to hunt in these high density coastal cities.
Absolutely. It’s a recurring cost that people don’t think about with all the other high priority items but I’m cognizantly trying to manage this line. It can be a big challenge in a city with lots of yummy diverse choices tho. Easier to cook at home in remote towns with less temptations.
I hear a lot of high earners in the bay use Blue Apron and that seems really expensive.
Slow cooker is fantastic to come home to for gourmet soup and hot food in the winters, but what do u do for summers? Can’t just feed the family salad and fruits every day right? Sushi gets expensive regularly. Fresh fruit can’t last week. Frozen smoothies alone isn’t filling enough for kids. Hot dogs aren’t too healthy.
omg – that sold place in outer sunset is near ABC Bakery – my favorite Chinese restaurant on Noreiga St! Love those sweet buns! mmm
This is an interesting post. I am from Sydney, Australia and can somewhat relate to this article given Sydney is one of the most expensive cities to live. But the major problem i see with this article is that the expense column has a lot of “good to have’s” vs. necessary expenses. Surely, someone who is on the path to financial freedom thinks and acts differently compared to someone running the rat race and trying to keep up with their peer group.
$300K is a decent amount of money anywhere in the world. I agree it is not enough to be classified as wealthy or rich in SF (or in Sydney) but its enough to give you the ammunition to continue on the path of FIRE whilst leaving a decent lifestyle at the same time.
When we had our first child in the expensive central California coastal city, I did the calculations for my wife working vs not. When her salary was added to mine as taxable income with Federal, California, Fica and loss of deductions with rising income, worthless health insurance contributions since we were already insured through my work, added childcare costs, added commuting costs then…
it turned out that my wife making over 100k per year was essentially working for 17 cents on the dollar– and for that benefit we would have seen our child raised by strangers.
Thanks, but no thanks. She quit work.
Who says taxes don’t affect incentives to work and thus a country’s prosperity? Anyone wonder why those European economies with the mandatory four week vacations, the flatter effort/reward curves, and the much more educated populations… have trendline growth rates that are less than half the world average — that is they are locked into deterministic trajectories to decline?
We did a similar calc, but one thing to consider is that usually leaving work is a one-way street. Being out of the workforce means losing relevance and it’s hard to get back in at the same level. It’s not fair, but it’s a reality.
I respect your decision, but people sometimes think of it as short-term (i.e. net after-tax earnings vs. childcare for the next few years) and don’t consider the consequences of giving up a 40-year career.
I have no children in a HCOL area. Our budget for 2 is around $76K (post tax) – I could imagine adding kids would easily bring that to $120K/yr.
One category I always see missing from people’s budgets are gifts. I currently budget $200/mo towards gifts (family, friends, birthday parties, holidays, weddings, etc)
The charity is a bit low. I realize this is personal but charity should be around 2-3% of your take home. Some people give 10%. I don’t know how they do it but they do. I also see no provision for long term care. You not have it now but you should start saving for it now given the costs.
A couple of things immediately stand out. The median middle class household does not pay property taxes of $19K a year and live in a $1.5m house unless they live in San Fran or NYC. Anywhere else and the range is probably from $2 to $8K a year. $24,000 for child care and baby-sitting? For 1 child? That seems high as well. We paid $15,000 a year total for 2 kids and had an au pair. That was a long time ago now but still this seems excessive to me.
I live in a coastal area, suburb of Philly and have 2 kids. Saved for college for both. Committed to funding 4 years for each one if they are reasonable. My first will start Penn State in the fall. I estimate the 4 year cost with increases to be around $165K. Yes, for a state school. So, saving for education is rough for the middle class. I made great sacrifices to do that. In the end, where I live I fully believe $200K can get the job done reasonably for a family of 4. However, our cost is not has high as San Fran or NYC so $300K may be necessary there.
This really illustrates how society has become a small amount of haves versus a large amount of have nots. I am in the haves category so I guess I should not complain. However, what we are seeing politically is an expression of have nots being extremely angry. I don’t think it is exclusive to the right or left. The next big shock may be from the left. Society needs to figure this out.
What is the median cost of a home in the suburb of Philly where you are? It’s $1.5M in SF.
Cost of childcare has risen over the past 18 years.
Finally, thoughts on choosing Penn State instead of U Penn?
Thanks
A LOT less than 1.5m, granted. My oldest is a decent student but not quite U of Penn material. My youngest may be headed that way. Straight A’s. We will see.
However, my oldest is also a hard worker who knows how to make money. My younger one is good with the books but struggles with jobs. So, each has their own strengths and weaknesses.
Can you elaborate on what “a lot less than $1.5M” is so I can run the numbers? It’s the best way to quantify instead of go through just opinion. I got so many folks saying my expense chart is unreasonable, but they can buy a similar house 3/3 for $500,000!
I’m thinking that by the time my son goes to college in 2036 or so, college will be obsolete. If it’s not a top 10 ranked college, I’m not sure if college is even worth it. Thoughts? I plan to teach him everything about business and various types of jobs due to our online business.
Related: How To Stop Worrying About Your Child’s Future In This Competitive World
$500,000 is probably a good figure for where I live. I also disagree with you on the “if it isn’t the top 10, it won’t be worth it”. Look at the last recession. The UE rate was 3x higher for non college grads than for college grads. Not that college is the end all and be all. I get that. I think college is important for certain fields. Trade schools for others or none at all if you are part of the .001% who can create without the need for education. I actually think college is more important today than ever before. However, it is too expensive for many reasons.
This article still applies:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/01/12/pay-gap-between-college-grads-and-everyone-else-record/96493348/
I’m thinking about 18 years from now, not so much now.
It’s great your son is going to Penn State and he’ll probably have a great time. Congratulations!
I don’t even know if going to college 18 years from now to any school, even Harvard, is worthwhile b/c I’m questioning its use now in the post: What If You Go To Harvard and End Up A Nobody
Please elaborate why you think college is more important now than ever.
Hi Sam,
Could you elaborate on your decision to save $700/month in a 529 plan? I’m investing a similar amount for my two children and was wondering what your thought process was behind that amount.
Thanks,
JM
I superfunded my son’s 529 plan in 2017 to the tune of $70,000. Then my wife is contributing $15,000 (max) for 2018, and the max each year until the plan is maxed out. We did it this way b/c we felt that the market was a little toppy at the end of 2017 and we didn’t want to use all our bullets.
Related: Everything To Know About The 529 College Savings Plan
JM,
I base our 529 level based off the max state tax deductible amount. In our state (VA) this is $8k. Each parent can deduct $4k per child on a joint return.
Sam – I thought I did with my link to the AP article and the stats from the last recession. For 99% of people in the world, there are 2 keys to success:
1. Resilience
2. Education
Sure, if you are born a billionaires kid you probably don’t need either to get by. From my experience though, a large majority needs both. A vast minority does not need education but the earnings statistics prove the value of a college education. There are problems on the cost side. That is clear. For me to have to spend $165K for 4 years of Penn State (all on the main campus though) is incredible.
If you’re willing to slum it a little, living in a not-so-nice neighborhood can save money.
I bought a home in East San Jose in 2010, still close to the bottom of the market. We are not in Evergreen, which is where the upper middle class types live; we’re a few miles south.
Given living in a poor school district, there is an after-school program that both my kindergartener and second grader qualify for. They go into it directly after school program for free, although we have to pay about ~$70/mo for the 1.5 hours D5 gets out a little earlier, they watch her on campus. We pick them up at 6PM. I estimate this saves us ~$1200/mo in child care expenses.
There is also a summer robotics “camp” in the same district. It is 7 weeks and costs $4.50/day, and it includes meals.
Another interesting thing is that their primary school is the first in the county to put all children on and “all kids go to college” track, starting in Transitional Kindergarten. The Asian kids in the Evergreen district don’t have to worry about that since their parents will make sure they all go to college (*wink*) but for the rest of us, it’s an interesting program.
I make in the $120k-130k range (depending upon bonus and whatever stock I liquidate each year), pay some child support, and do just fine here. I anticipate paying off my home in about 10 years, after which I either retire, or have the liquidity to pay for my kids’ college. I only put $150/mo into their 529s (I originally put $100/mo for every month since they were born, but increased it this month), which will pay for tuition at a local college if they choose to live at home. My thinking at this point is that they need to take ownership of the funds I’ve set aside for them. If they choose to blow it trying to go out of state, good luck to them. If they choose to take AP courses and/or get their AA/AS in high school in order to eliminate time at a 2 year or minimize time at a 4 year college, then even better.
Ditto others’ comments on the heartland being more appealing in this scenario. I lived in Singapore for 5 years (consistently ranked no 1 in total cost of living worldwide) and came away from that (pricey) experience telling myself I will never live in a high COL area again if given the choice.
It’s incredible how many people in other countries have no choice but to live in their country’s high cost of living areas due to various factors outside their control. Geo-arbitrage is truly one of the mightiest tools in the US that MANY people elsewhere simply do not have, or not to the same degree.
Some people are forced to go where the work is, but is the quality of life in the expensive coastal cities so great to offset the total life cost? I’ve seen that lifestyle and for me it’s simply not worth it. The number of life options given to me in a lower cost of living area far outweigh the downsides, in my view. If I reach financial independence far faster living in flyover country for a few years, I can then spend my time visiting expensive areas and enjoying their amenities…
Late to comment, but have a few thoughts: Geo-Arbitrage (love that term) is alive and well in our home. My husband is an MD, and we live in western NY. Although we do pay HIGH NY state taxes, as well as extremely high real estate taxes ($10,000 for a home assessed at $325,000), the actual cost of homes is relatively inexpensive here. Utilities are also reasonable, as well as auto and home insurance, entertainment, maintenance services, etc. Our home is 2,800 sq. feet, on 1/3 acre, 4 bedroom/2.5 bath. We have lived in it for 30 years. Just recently have home values begun to increase. Because they had been basically flat for 25 years, our area did not suffer in the 2009 real estate downturn. My husband earns a very decent salary (probably comparable to what an MD would earn in a large coastal city) and we live cheaply. He grew up here and we loved raising our family here. The schools are top notch, and my boys attended Ivy League colleges.
Being from the tri-state nyc area, and having a son and sister living there, I think your numbers are on target. So I guess we are lucky to have been able to avoid the rat race and live an upper class life. We can get to Toronto and NY fairly easily, so we have enjoyed the best of both worlds. Not sure where we will go in retirement, but I have a feeling we will at least keep a small home here, and maybe leave for the winters. To be decided.
We’re probably neighbors. A number of people rag on Western NY–“Can’t wait to leave”, but what they don’t understand is how much we have here. At this very moment there is a developer selling brand new 4 bedroom homes on 1/4 acre lots starting in the high 200’s in one of the best school districts in the state (and ranks well nationally–97% high school graduation rate). That house is 5 minutes from the interstates, 15 min from the airport. Tons of colleges around here and unemployment is low as well. A million people in the greater area but no major traffic problems.
But, the area is not “sexy”, so people instead grind out an existence with $6k mortgage payments, living on top of each other, in a 1200 square foot living space in a big city like NYC.
Wow!
The numbers seem about right, but that’s why I’m glad I took your advice when first starting to follow the site. “You need less than you think to retire.” Still retooling while I figure some things out, but the single best decision we made was to get a 10 year mortgage in 2001 for the co-op that has tripled in value. We can live on one income in Brooklyn for 1/3 of that and still have access to everything. I’ve seen this city radically change with a lot of foreign money and mass gentrification in every corner of the city. I think passive income development in the midwest is a good idea, but I think the “flip-up” strategy that some people mention could remain flat for an extend period of time.
I’d say that the numbers are about right, obviously its more on the higher end of middle class for San Francisco. If you put the numbers in any cost of living comparison calculator, it makes sense. I’ve lived in Manhattan for over 10 years prior to living in Indianapolis, and I ‘d say a family of 4 in Manhattan would need about 400k to be upper middle class.(That income level you should be able to afford 2 million dollar apartment, nothing luxurious) In Indianapolis it is about 150k. (Which would allow a 700k house, which is not a mansion in Indianapolis but nice upper middle class house) When I put these numbers in the cost of living calculator it actually is almost exact. For example compare Indy to San Fran, if you made 300k in San Fran, you would need only 150k in Indy for same lifestyle. I think the point is making 300k in San Fran or 400k In NYC your not considered rich by any means for a family of 4. Now if your single and making that much then your having a grand time.
$6,000 spent on some clothes? Good grief! That would be insane. Imagine how many hours somebody would have to spend shopping to bring home $6,000 worth of clothes. Wandering about in stores and spending money is not a productive use of valuable time. In just 5 years they would amass $30,000 worth of clothes. Furthermore, where would they store all of that? Will they be renting a warehouse?
I think the $6,000 is for 3 people. Just to put it in a little perspective, you don’t necessarily have more clothes with a bigger budget, just better quality. High quality classic clothing lasts and looks great for a very long time. I have some things 20-30 years old and they are still cool. Some people would spend that on kitchen appliances or sports equipment but I prefer clothing. It can be time consuming to shop, but I have 3 favourite stores and buy 2-3 times a year. I am looking for specific items that I have wanted for awhile, not just wandering around in malls buying random items on impulse. As for storage, I don’t have a lot of items or closets, and I cull regularly for charity, so my closets and drawers are not stuffed and I wear everything, and most of it for many years. There have been years (e.g. big mortgage, no job) when I stretched every dollar, bought cheaper clothes and wore one pair of jeans and 5 tee shirts, and that was okay too.
I think the mortgage number is a little off or there is a huge assumption about a down payment. Your property tax is based on a 1.5 million house. If one puts 20% down, the mortgage is $5700/mo on a 30 year amortization at 4%. That is substantially higher than the $3900 figure you mentioned.
Are you suggesting this family put $600,000 down on the house? If so, then the parents must have been saving for a LONG time or had help.
Even if the savings was done before children, that would be, at best, another $50,000 a year towards a down payment.
What am I missing?
Sure. They bought earlier at a lower price and saw the value of the house rise.
But there is no doubt parental help is strong for buying property in expensive cities.
See: https://www.financialsamurai.com/a-massive-generational-wealth-transfer-is-why-everything-will-be-ok/
Perhaps a more accurate title for the article needs to be “Why Households Need To Earn $300,000 A Year To Live A Middle Class Lifestyle SEVEN TO TEN YEARS AGO”.
In other words, if a young couple who is renting decides to invest in property TODAY, they would need nearly $2,000 additional per month to cover the property. Maybe you need to change the middle class threshold to $350,000!
By the way, I’m not knocking your premise AT ALL. I’m in an east coast suburb, 850k house with a 650k mortgage. I don’t have kids (yet) and our monthly spend is around $11,000 not including contributions to retirement accounts.
Our income is around $400,000
> But there is no doubt parental help is strong for buying property in expensive cities.
Cite?
And the plural of anecdote is not ‘data’.
> Sure. They bought earlier at a lower price and saw the value of the house rise.
Oh, great, so they took out a loan of almost $1 million with minimal money down?
They ‘need $300,000 to live middle class’ is only because your hypothetical family was astoundingly stupid with their money.
Turning a $200,000 down payment on a $1.2 million house, into $500,000 + the principal paydown over several years isn’t too shabby. I’d take it.
How much has your $300K house increased over the past several years?
Nice to see you respond with derision to people questioning your example.
In your ‘example’ your couple took out essentially a million dollars in debt for the house and car with – as your example shows – essentially zero leeway in their budget. That’s one job layoff, medical emergency or real estate crash (pretty sure it’s happened before) from total financial disaster.
I’ll repeat – the reason your family ‘needs’ $300,000 is because it’s an example of a family being incredibly stupid with their money.
> How much has your $300K house increased over the past several years?
Completely irrelevant to the point at hand, but since you asked, roughly 10% over the past two years. And I don’t owe a dime on it. Thanks for asking.
A $27,000 gain in two years on your home is great! Not sure where you think this derision is coming from. Just look at your initial comment. Making a $300K gain is pretty good and I think many people would take it too.
I think the key to happiness is minimizing the comparison of one’s situation with others. Be happy you paid cash. No need to say someone who took out a mortgage is “astoundingly stupid.” Be happy with your $27,000 gain in two years. No need to say someone who made 11X more in the same timeframe is a fool.
Dang!! $300K? In Hawaii, not many households even make half of that amount.
I live in San Jose California and we make close to 300 K a year. I would consider myself upper middle class in the way we live and toys I have. We also save close to 200 K a year after the expenses are paid. We do not have children so I guess that makes up for many thousands of dollars and serious amount of free time. Moved here 10 years ago and have Less than 20% of the house to pay off. I feel a lot of Sam’s so called expenses are really true luxury and not anything resembling middle class lifestyle. If you choose to live small when it comes to housing, restaurants, and automobiles your paycheck will be going into investments instead of wasteful spending.
Saving $200,000 a year after paying taxes that’s quite impressive. Do you guys live rent free? Please share your expenses so other people can learn how to save such a high percentage of their after-tax income. As you can see from this example, the after-tax and after retirement contribution leaves this household with less than $200,000. Thanks
You don’t pay taxes? Making $300k in San Jose is less than $200k after taxes. And no matter how frugal you are, you need at least $50k/yr for living and expenses for two.
Hey Sam-
It’s interesting how so many of the comments get frustrated with 300k as a middle class benchmark because it’s higher than what middle class technically is.
I think what you’re basically getting at (which is exactly how I feel), is that making 300k allows you to be comfortable and save some $$. A lot of successful people consider being comfortable and saving some $$ “middle class” even though it isn’t. They would consider people who sold companies and made millions, make over 1M a year at their jobs, or inherited a ton of money to be wealthy.
I’m in the top 2 percent of income earners for people my age, and top 1 percent in terms of savings. But I don’t feel upper class at all. I feel like I’m just grinding away trying to save as much money as I can. I know I’m wrong but it’s just how I feel. It’s interesting how comparing yourself to other people can make you feel.
The vacation expense is way too low IMO if you have to fly somewhere. Living in NYC doesn’t allow that in February…
The anger in many of these posts are ridiculous.
The bottom line? It should be to work hard, be frugal, find ways to enjoy life with your family, and consider ways to retire well. If it takes $300,000 to be middle class and attain these basics on the coasts, then I have no problem with them being middle class.
I was upper class in a third world country, and now I am making over 8 times my annual salary here in the U.S. versus the third world country, with lower capacity to take vacation and travel. It is a choice to be made.
Living in NJ, I find these expenses to actually be on point or if anything too low. They do not include a 2nd car for the other spouse (5k per year) and once you have a 2nd or 3rd kid in the equation you will still have the childcare expense plus school payments for an older child of 5k-15k per year. Add in another 5k of summer camp each year and birthday parties for ones own kids as well as friends kids + holiday hosting and associated presents (5k/year).
In the end though the typical family that would be identified above would find themselves being in their 50’s with a fully paid off 1.5 million dollar house (in todays dollars) and several million in 401k (which I suppose would not make them middle class in retirement). So perhaps struggling a bit now but very much ok/”rich” in retirement.
Sam’s definitely really close on his call that 300K/year is middle class. I personally consider this the lower end of upper middle class, but again it depends on where one lives. The government wants people to believe that if a family of 4 makes 50K, they are middle class. This is absolutely false! Don’t let the mass media and government try to fool you. 125K in the midwest is middle class. 225K-250K is upper middle class. 500K+ is upper class.
Again, a great point that Sam makes is that lifestyle needs to be factored in along with income to better define class. In my opinion, there are some line items in Sam’s budget that seem high at first glance, but someone from SF at a similar income level should really submit their financial profile for comparison.
I will submit my midwest budget and we will see where it lands!
Sam,
Love your blog but I think this post is way too generic. A middle class income and mortgage in San Fran is crazy different than in Cleveland, Indy, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Columbus, etc. There aren’t any “middle class” families in the Cleveland area that are paying over 2,000/month for their mortgage. Most of my friends live in houses valued from 200-350k. Depending on the suburb. 350k can get you a pretty decent home. A $3,000/month mortgage in this neck of the woods is almost unheard of unless you are a doctor, attorney, etc. that is at minimum income statement affluent.
Again, I love your blog and learn something every time I read it. I appreciate your perspective. I just think you’re comparing apples and oranges here however. Your numbers are probably right for crazy places like Cali where you pay loads for something of no value. But who wants to live in Cali anymore anyways? The taxes, home values, and traffic are terrible. I know several affluent people moving to NV and TX to get out of there.
Thank you as always for such a thoughtful post.
Sure, no problem. If you would like to write a post about the middle-class lifestyle in Cleveland and those other cities I welcome it! Thanks for sharing and helping diversify the content on the site. Please share your background and expenses. Thanks
I agree with this point. I live on the east coast, but most cities are no where near as expensive as NYC or San Francisco. For the median reader $300,000 per year is going to be solidly middle class or better.
My wife and I live in the small-to-medium sized midwestern college town (a very blue town in an otherwise red state, the latter of which sucks) in which we went to school, loved it, were fortunate to get well-paying jobs we loved here and never left. We’re what James McMurtry sings about in his song, I’m not from here.:
I’m not from here
But people tell me, it’s not like it used to be
They say I should’ve been here, back about ten years
Before it got ruined by folks like me
She worked for a giant telecom company and I worked in the physics department of the university. Together we always made a six figure income – in a town where a family of four could live a pretty nice life on $50K – and have owned all our own homes since we married a few years after school. We’re in our third house now, a 2,800 sq ft ranch on 3/4 acre in a nice neighborhood half a mile from the edge of campus that has been paid for for ten years.
We put our two boys through college as far as they were willing to go (one with a post grad degree and one who did not finish his undergraduate studies) and we retired early; she at 56 and me at 57. We each had six weeks of vacation for most of our working years and took the boys on many theme park, beach, desert and mountain vacations and even to Europe. We spent a year overseas while I was on sabbatical and my wife and newborn oldest son were able to join me because of her company’e generous maternity leave program.
I coached youth sports, including four years of youth football, five years of basketball and twelve years of baseball; from Little League T-ball through Babe Ruth. As well as typical family vacations, we also spent a couple of weeks every summer traveling to all-star baseball tournaments. Those were some of the best times ever!
Because of our busy schedule with work and kids (and their myriad activities) we dined out a lot, but once the stable life developed when the boys were older we cut back on that behavior and it’s hard to believe how much money you can burn along with all those excessive calories! My wife kept track of every penny we spent with her own spreadsheet and when we decided in our early forties that we wanted to retire early, we started cutting back on a lot of other non-essential items, like the ~$400 per month we were spending at the book store, and similar amount for wine and spirits. I also stopped upgrading my beloved BMW motorcycles every year or two. :(
We had always been good at tucking extra cash away but since we both had decent pensions to look forward too, we weren’t fanatical about saving. But by deciding to retire early, we knew wouldn’t have SS to supplement the pensions for some years, so the savings plan picked up speed. Plus, we had a few windfalls that most folks aren’t lucky enough to enjoy. On top of my regular job I picked up some extra work on the side helping out a large Internet company for four years, and put about $250K away from that. Plus, I owned a popular enthusiast website which generated an extra $25K – $50K a year for a number of years (most of which I invested), and I eventually sold it for $250K. So before we were fifty my wife and I had already built a solid and fast-growing portfolio.
Although she didn’t expect to get out quite as early as age 56, in an effort to shed older, more costly employees, my wife’s company offered her a lump-sum early retirement supplemental income package (SIP) of nearly seven figures in lieu of a monthly pension, and along with a $180K 401(k), she (we) were giddy with delight!
I’m a year and a half younger than my wife and – feeling we had secured some measure of financial independence – planned on retiring at age 56 as well. However, the only other person in the world who was familiar with my systems (strange, one of a kind nuclear physics apparatus) took a position with another lab, and not being one to leave my own lab in a lurch, I stuck around for an extra year, training others on my equipment and writing over 800 pages of technical documentation for that as well as for a SQL database for which I was responsible.
Also, at about the time I was ready to retire I was struck with an unusual physical disability that, although not life-threatening or limiting in mobility, does interfere with some of the activities I used to enjoy. The Social Security Administration agreed that I am indeed disabled and therefore granted me SSD. We would do perfectly well financially without that income, and I would be especially grateful to not be disabled as I am, but coupled with my pension, it has afforded my wife and I the luxury of not touching our investment portfolio, which has allowed it to experience significant growth over the past seven years (I am now 61 and my wife is 63). Our financial adviser just last year insisted that we begin to withdraw monies from our account (we’d be forced to do so at age 70 anyway) and we have taken his advise although it’s not making much of a difference in our quality of life. We’ve both always been able to afford to drive late model cars (my wife owns a 2018 Volvo XC90 Hybrid – haha, Sam!) and I just bought a new Audi Q5 SUV. The difference between now and ten years ago? We paid cash for the new cars.
Thank you for your financial advice and everything else you provide to your readers, Sam. Good luck with your long, long retirement!
This is a controversial post! I live in Toronto and I feel the 150 per person is only necessary if you’re maintaining both a high savings AND spending percentage. At this time my focus is more on saving so the spending is more restricted.
But I think what the point of this post was to depict a salary where you don’t have to struggle day to day. For that, I would consider 150 k a person to be a good fit, even in CAD. Certainly you can make do with much less however.
Here is what my P&L looks like at $300k (which is very close to my 2018 total – next year higher), rounded to nearest $1k
Income – $300k
Taxes – $70k
401k + Def Comp – $30k
Healthcare – $5k
Housing (all related) – $25k
Cars (2x, with ins/tax/gas) – $17k
Food/Bev – $20k (yeah, we like to eat out)
Vacations (3-4x intl) – $12k (usually 1-2x to Europe, 2x Carib)
Life Insurance – $1k
Household Items – $3k
Student Loans – $6k
Clothes/etc (90% wife) – $8k
Other -$10k (gifts, entertainment, etc)
Net Savings $93k
Yeah I get this budget it hits close to home. NYC suburbs, housing is expensive but even more so is property taxes I pay almost 40k in property tax, so my housing expense is 80K before talking about maintenance, utilities, etc. So basically my big cost driver is 100k in housing expense, childcare, commuting costs, and insane insurance costs(car, house, liability, jewlery is 9k for me) everything else is pretty much in line with the rest of the country. I’m cheap so at the end of the day I can save 50k hard cash plus the 401k max(with company match it’s 50k for the 2 of us), I have a 2 bedroom condo on the hudson river that has no cash flow but is on a 15 yr mortgage being paid down by my tenant so I make 20k per year in principal. But yeah food costs are high we both work and commute, and daycare is very expensive, healthcare is also a killer it’s not only the premiums but the fact that you need to spend 6k before your insurer really picks anything up.
Its a good article but what these articles always leave out is the time cost of quality of life for your years on this earth. I work a civil servant “middle class” job but I do in the middle of the country. I commute 15 minutes a day in a metropolitan area. I can live in a 5 bedroom house and afford it on a two parent working salary. But I’m not always stressed out with the cost of living and the over crowded SF city like area. I’m two hours from the mountains, the beach, or D.C. but I can come home from work and actually enjoy raising my kids in the neighborhood we live in. I actually have time to spend on the things that matter. Maybe those coastal cities are fun when you are single and just starting out but when you have a wife and kids, and don’t want to pay for private school (you want your taxes to just pay for the school you live at) and want a safe neighborhood that is not an ultra-wealth gated community, you got to move away from the left coasts.
I am self employed, live in the Midwest with a little over a $300k self-employed income. I did a spreadsheet inline with what you had laid out Id be happy to email it to you and collaborate on an article about living in the midwest living if you are interested.
It is much cheaper to live in the heartland but at the end of the day money come and money go – especially when you have kids and hobbies :)
I max out the sep IRA every year, live in a modest home with a pool and on acreage. Life is good in the heartlands. We have 2 kids and my wife is able to stay at home but we still like the development social aspect of daycare so our oldest son goes a few days a week.
https://nypost.com/2018/04/25/ex-new-yorkers-are-flocking-to-this-midwest-sanctuary/
Article on folks flocking to the Midwest from NYC>
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/04/26/gops-salt-cap-may-speed-exodus-from-high-tax-states-report-says.html
And another.
“As the migration speeds up, it will raise real-estate values in low-tax states and hurt them in high-tax states,” the authors add.
Ahhhh, my thesis of investing in the heartland is going more mainstream!
This article is also seen on CNBC website. Way to go, Sam!!
Whoo hoo! Patting myself on the back before heading off to see my foster care mentee.
I am having trouble rationalizing this relative to actual income statistics. Based on US Census data, the median HH income in NYC is 53k and the 95th percentile of NYC households earn 240k. By stating 300k is needed to be middle class, you are implying that 95% of the population in NYC are below middle class, or lower class. You also imply that the middle class makes up less than 5% of the population in NYC (the 95% – 100% of HHs by income). That doesn’t seem to be at all ‘middle’ to me. Can you please define what you mean exactly when you state ‘middle class’?
Thanks!
https://statisticalatlas.com/place/New-York/New-York/Household-Income
While you have touched on numerous salient points, you have no clue what you’re talking about when it comes to “middle class.” The people in the middle class do not spend $6k/yr on clothing, $8k on vacations, waste several thousand on food, nor drive a $50k luxury SUV. A middle class family has to make choices on where to spend and where to cut. They don’t say, “Hey, I’m blowing 8k on a 3 week mega vacation” and it just magically happens. They’ve had to spend their money to make ends meet so do something local, or some camping, or whatever other cheap alternative they can come up with. You have a baby and you’re going to do everything you can to protect him/her? If you’re middle class and that’s your mindset, then you’re buying a used Explorer or CRV at best. And you’re not having someone deliver your food to you every night, you suck it up and loose family time because you just can’t afford to do it any other way.
Just because you need $300k/yr to make your life of luxury work for you doesn’t suddenly mean you are somehow middle class. My household income puts us solidly in upper class (top 10%ish range) and we don’t spend anywhere NEAR what you suggest for most of these line items. Now if you want to say that it costs 300k to live comfortably (I’d argue very luxuriously), then that’s arguable. To somehow claim that this is “middle class” just makes this all nonsense.
And if you were paying ~$600/month on $40k in student loans then your interest rates were over 13%. That doesn’t add up either unless you were financing it irresponsibly.
Sam,
Your site is peerless and one of the few sane, informative places left on the blogosphere.
I wanted to shed light on why people have such emotional reactions to your “middle class” or income based articles which non of the 300+ comments seem to quite capture.
The issue is not about differing lifestyle or cost-of-living strategies, rather its a visceral envy; they know its actually is quite difficult to make $300k for a family even in NY/SF/coastal metro.
I graduated an Ivy MBA program 5 years ago.
In my class of 200, ~100 went into consulting or finance. Five years later, only about 25 are still at a top consultancy or bulge bracket/PE firm. That means only 13% of the my elite (using that term relatively, I’m by no means anything special) class are still on track to be conventionally ultra-high earners.
Passive income, smart investing etc. are the true ways to establishing wealth but most people are delusional and hope to just go into the office and get a fat paycheck every 2 weeks.
Going back to my class, only 25 people will be partners or managing directors making the real $500k+ paycheck year in, year out. What’s left is a of people toiling at the corporate wheel to hit $175-200k. Very few couples can maintain the dual-income high earning commitment once kids get into the picture and are thus 1 income. I guarantee this scenario describes countless law school grads as well.
Some readers take your advice and start their own business, do rental property etc. but I guarantee, most are just looking around at high earners green with envy (like your old golfing friend!).
Anyway, sorry for the rant but no one had said the obvious and wanted you to know. Keep up the good work!
Saving for children’s college. Home maintenance, remodeling etc. I live in Midwest and have 4 children. I think 150k is very low. 300 would put you at comfortable and not living the high life.
Corporate MBA definition of middle class -broke. Small home, 10 year old car. Social security for retirement . Kids borrowing for college. No vacation. Scrapping by to make ends meet. Both parents toiling away. Fear of losing job.
That’s not middle class. Frankly the middle class seems to be eroding away.
Sorry to sound jaded, but look around you. We are increasingly moving toward a rich and poor society . The middle class
Sadly seems to be going away. Our country was great because all shared in the wealth . Not just the few. You might not have been rich , but you didn’t struggle like people do today . 300k is not excessive even in the Midwest.
This is absolutely right. Sadly this is right and society evolving into two classes. Haves and have nots. Obviously those that are on this site are likely more educated on financial issues and likely higher earners. But next time you’re at the airport or a public place look around…love the comments
I don’t see a single sacrifice in there at all. That is living very comfortably at all levels. I think $15K/yr on recreation and vacation is a bit extravagant. $1K/mo on clothes and baby seems rather high to me.
Which is why the “democrats” are working so hard to convince you that you are all “privileged” anyways and don’t have any right to complain. They need you to feel too guilty to stand up for their destruction of the middle class.
Your numbers don’t seem that far off to me in most categories. I pay $1,300 a month for full-time pre-school for my one son, $3,100 a month on my mortgage so those two expenses eat up most of our salary real quick. We have lived in Denver almost 20 years and are cashing out this month and moving back to the Midwest. We’ve loved our time here but it’s time for a change and this move will allow for much more freedom in our lives. The Denver market may continue it’s rapid growth but we are taking the money and running while we can.
This is how it goes. Your manager says Your getting a 2% raise. So aren’t you happy your getting an extra $800 annually. Oh but your healthcare insurance just went up, so don’t expect much in your paycheck . Press just announced your Ceo’s pay increase is 30%, and on list of highest paid executives.
The government does nothing to control the slave labor coming from South America. Largely they talk and talk and nothing ever happens. Republican and Democrats alike. Because the rich don’t want them to do anything .
Then in the guise of the law of comparative advantage they flood the country with goods from foreign countries . All the while the Fortune 500 benefitting from the effect on earnings. Ceo wins , stockholders win, but your neighbor is broke. Look at some of our cities. It’s disgraceful
I am a lifelong republican , grew up republican and conservative . I always believed in our great country and that through hard work and sacfrifice one could better ones life.
Our country worked because all shared.
Our country worked because people thought they had a voice.
Look at the sacrifice of our people in the wars, look at how they stood up. Proud of their country, proud of our ideals.
Too whom much is given, much is expected . Spread the wealth.
We (2+2) live in a nice town in Bay Area with ~1.5 jobs and make about this a year. After taxes ~ $15k, but our “free cash flow” that we save and invest mainly in SP500 index funds is about ~6k a month. Some things that we do much cheaper: 1) We don’t have a mortgage but rent a really nice house for $3500/mo, so obviously no maintenance or prop tax. 2) We rarely eat out so food is less than $1000/mo 3) Our two Japanese cars are also ~6-7 yr old (paid in cash) so there are no monthly payments. 4) And $500/mo on clothes??! It’s California.. t-shirts and jeans/shorts is all we need, so maybe $150/mo. 5) We don’t do much entertainment either, so a couple hundred there a month. 6) And as we have really flexible schedules our childcare costs are about $800/mo. We lived as well when we were making $150k/yr, but obviously not saving anything.
While I agree with you on a few points, I disagree with you on many others.
First, I live in the northeast(coast) and $300,000 is not a middle class salary. It is higher and yes, our taxes and costs are high. Most people I know earn about $100,000 a year. That’s middle class, with two incomes.
Second, many of the expenses you cite are elective, as in vacations and recreational choices. So, many of us do not spend our hard earned $$ as you describe. Life is about priorities and smart financial choices. Your portrayal does not describe most.
Family with 4 kids. Midwest. 3000 ft home. Newer cars. 2weeks of vacation.
401k savings, paid for kids college. Over many years went from 15k to 300k in pay . Expenses rise up to meet income.
No vacation home, no toys . No country club. I consider myself middle class. Kids went to good schools , all of which are public. Neighbors college educated. Engineers to business owners and executives. 300k is not rich in my mind. It’s a level where you aren’t struggling to pay your bills . Have health insurance . Suburban life in the Midwest. Seems like unexpected bills always arise, and updates to your home etc.
…Expenses rise up to meet income…
You nailed it. Let me rephrase this, “We allowed our expenses to increase with our income” This is the root of the entire debate, IMO. Families that controlled expenses, banking increases see ther 300k as the high life. Whereas, the families that allowed their expenses to increase with income have slowly increased their wants and expectations making 300k, meh.
So maybe you start out with a used car. You keep it 10 years. You have one car. Then you splurge and buy a new Ford. Later you have two new cars. The kids need cars and you get something for them.
Same thing occurs with Houses etc.
you could refrain and sock every dollar away. That’s your choice.
Can you live below your means, sure.
It comes back to what is middle class.
I could survive on less than 300k. Plenty do.
Is education important? Well it varies by where you live. Better live in a more affluent area because that’s where the best schools are located. College costs money, are you going to educate your children or saddle them with an anchor around their necks when they start out.
You going to live on social security in retirement? Or do you want to maintain your lifestyle in retirement .
You want to drive an old clunker, deal with breakdowns and repairs .
I grew up modestly with parents that grew up on the depression. They were frugal and never on the government dole, as they called it. My parents didn’t make what I do today . They were middle class.
I enjoy a better life financially. But I think I am solidly in the middle class.
In my opinion the middle class is eroding because incomes for many are not keeping up. More are poor. They have downgraded their own view of what is middle Class life.
Decent home•
Healthcare•
Savings•
Retirement money•
Decent education •
College education•
Vacation•
Decent clothing•
Financial security•
Life insurance•
Home maintained•
Not living paycheck to paycheck
Kids sports and activities •
Food on the table •
Going out to restaurants •
Decent quality of goods you buy •
Both parents working• wasn’t always necessary in the past•
300k minus taxes, deductions and your take home 12-13k per month. About 1/2.
In the time it takes for a Ceo to go to the restroom they make that much. Many make in one year what people don’t make in an entire life of working .maybe they deserve it, and glad we live in a land where people can really excel .
In my mind 300k is a decent living. No you aren’t flying jets wherever you go, but you can live comfortably and meet your obligations.
No Ebenezer 300k is not excessive , it’s middle class.
300k is not excessive, but by definition, it’s not in the “middle”. Not even in the Bay Area. Median family income in the Bay Area is something like $120k. So if you take middle to be +-25% from the median, you won’t have families making $300k in that class. And of course in the majority of the US 300k is top 2%.
Don’t confuse middle class income with middle-class lifestyle. If you have a middle-class income Of $120,000, it is extremely difficult to afford a medium priced home of $1.5 million and raise kids.
Well, all I have to say is that I’m glad I live in a more sensible part of the country then. Our family of 4 monthly budget is around $6K. And $800-1000 of that goes to charity because it’s a lot of fun to give it away. My truck and the wife’s SUV are both paid for and the combined insurance is less than $1200/yr. We spend less than $3K/yr on gas because work, school and play are all within 10 miles of our house. Our mortgage is less than $100K on a $400K home. We contribute to the retirement accounts, my brokerage account, and the 529 college accounts. We try to plan a nice vacation every year with some side trips here and there within the region, spending between $3-4K. We have a net worth that ranks in the 80th percentile nationally. And oh BTW, last year (2017) was the first time our combined gross income cracked 100K…. So $300K is NOT necessary to live a comfortable middle class lifestyle in the more sensible parts of the country… and the biggest perk… LESS STRESS! That’s priceless.
If you try to keep your expenses within reason, such as:
-Auto Loan @8% of income
– Student Loans @10% of income
– Mortgage @28% of income
___________________________
Total @46% of your income is gobbled up here
You have not even eaten yet. Let alone pay for utilities, gas, food, clothes, vacation, etc.
I notice that the only debt is a mortgage and car payment. I have to assume that all other debt has therefore, been knocked out. That sounds great. However, if much of America (last I checked it was around 76%) living check to check, I just wonder if the people described are really putting aside the max in retirement accounts and have a 529 for the kiddies. With inflation hovering around 2-3% annually a family like this should really be able/want to save more than $375 per month or $4500 per year. It’s a shame that living on the coast costs so much.
From what I have read you need to save at least 20% of your income to be able to retire one day, which this couple is in 401k/529 accounts, but they will be more house rich, cash poor. Since the 401k and 529 is not easily liquid how will they afford to pay for the what if’s in life? Like when junior needs braces for $8k or the Volvo needs a new engine for $11k. That wipes out the $4500 cash flow for just 1 item. If they are actually banking that money every year, then it’s great. However, if they decide to buy a vacation home, send the kids to private school, or certain other purchases could push them into using credit and possibly scaling back 401k/529/savings contributions.
I also notice the more prestigious the job title usually the more expensive the neighborhood the family may live in. Then they want the Range in the driveway to keep up with the neighbors, the gardener to keep up with the curb appeal set by the HOa, etc. etc…
And gentrification may push housing through the roof! Making your $300k feel like $75k. Ugh!
The jobs may pay well, but the expenses tend to go up exponentially. It also negates the extra pay. As you say, this is a sad story indeed.
Great post! I think one part of your net income calculation is slightly off. In the GOP’s effort to make the tax code simpler (sarcasm) while it did increase the child tax credit to $2,000 the max refundable portion is $1,400 therefore no more than than should be added back to calculate net income.
at the end of the day, you have to be incredibly stupid to keep “fighting” against the current just to live in SF or NYC… if you claim you travel and all your money is created by not working you should’ve figured out where to live like a millionaire anywhere in the US with $300k/year. complaining about it in a blog just to make ends meet seems pretty stupid to me.
at some point you have to use your noodle. even if you work for a living you should be able to figure it out anywhere in this great nation of ours… you shouldn’t be complaining about earning $300k/yr because you live in NYC or SF.
I’m definitely not that smart, which is why I write to learn from others.
Do you mind sharing something about yourself and providing some guidance? You seem very wise and have your stuff together. Thank you.
Hi Sam,
I’ve been an avid reader of your blog over the years. Thank you for putting things in the right perspective with this post.
As someone who has lived in the Valley for over 10 years now, I can attest to the prohibitive cost of living. My husband and I work extremely long hours to pull in 300k + each and I don’t see how we could be comfortable on one salary here. We have one toddler and school and after-school care bites a little into our savings. That said, I certainly count my blessings and have come up with a plan to live off 80% of one salary and save the rest.
One thing you might want to factor into your calculation is school district. A typical (read decent) home in a good school district in the Bay Area costs nearly 2 million. And property taxes run up to 30k per year. We’re in the market for a new home (since my son will be starting elementary school next year) and I don’t see anything that costs 1.5 million that is decent sized, at a short distance from work or new enough.
I might sound entitled to some, but is it unrealistic to expect a decent standard of living or want a good life for your children after several years of hard work at school and after?
I looked at your expenses. I live in the Bay Area not San Francisco but in Fremont Area, House worth over a million. I took out the expenses I don’t have, like a mortgage, childcare, all the major expenses I don’t have and I came out just below 100k. I estimate my expenses to be 92k which was almost in line with yours (which includes 15k of travel).
Wrote a blog on how Texas is 15-20% cheaper than the Bay Area not counting housing. Would move there if I could take the kids. Unfortunately, can’t do that.
Do you think it’s because you and your wife are in your 60s and have vastly different expenses than households with families? Perhaps it’s because costs 30 years ago were much less?
How old are the kids?
One is 31 and 28. The 28 year old is in her second year of being an ER nurse. My son works for AT&T.. He and his wife struggle a lot more.
Thoughts on helping them financially given your $3.6M net worth excluding your house?
How do we decide when to help our kids and when not to when they are adults? This is something I’ve been thinking about now that I’m a dad.
Yes I plan to leave a sizeable inheritance (I hope they don’t read financial samurai lol) because like you I do not intend to touch principal during retirement.
I had my trust set up for them to get certain amount at different ages but now they are more responsible.
When to help our kids is a tough one. With my daughter I have helped her less because she has a high earning potential. She is still renting though. She works in Bakersfield but salaries are much less. She can double her salary in the Bay Area but as you well know houses are in the stratosphere. Her husband just got out of the military and plans to go to school so they only have one salary
My son we have helped a lot more. We helped him get into a house at the bottom of the housing crisis so his house has doubled in price but he doesn’t have the same educational level as my daughter.
So we often help them when they run into trouble. He works very hard and I see him struggle sometimes 10 hr days.
When you start saving you never realize you will be helping your children once they are gone. I am just fortunate (even with a disability) I have the resources to help them.
My wife says she would rather see the smiles on their faces while we are alive then when we are dead.
We also pay for vacations for them when we all go, and I like to be generous at Christmas time.
They are very appreciative.
Over the top. The vast majority of folks in this country do not make that kind of money, that includes college educated. No sense of cutting back and trying to be honest about wants and needs.