Theory: The desire for prestige is why we: 1) spend an outrageous sum of money on education, 2) kill ourselves at jobs we don’t like, 3) put up with colleagues and bosses we despise, 4) never pursue our dreams, and 5) eventually fill our hearts with regret. If we can figure out how to rid ourselves of the desire for prestige, we will become much happier in the process!
About a year and a half ago when I was attending Finovate, a financial innovation conference, I met a fintech entrepreneur named John. He told me his revolutionary idea was to simplify the documentation gathering process for people looking to refinance or get a new mortgage. As anybody who’s ever taken out a mortgage can attest, it’s a real pain in the ass.
I was intrigued since I’ve done about 10 refinances on four properties since 2003 and planned to refinance one last time when I met him. But when John showed me his product, it still required the user to upload all of the docs the bank wanted onto his website. Further, there are always additional document requests from the bank to upload on his platform after that. What’s the point?
Creating an unnecessary barrier between consumer and lender didn’t seem like a good business idea. At least John was trying to solve a problem. I thanked him for his time and wished him well.
Then just last month I ran into John at another fintech conference. I tend to go once a quarter with a free media pass. Otherwise, I’d go less often because these tickets cost anywhere from $300 – $2,000 each! Running conferences during the internet boom is akin to being a landlord. It’s one of the best ways to profit.
I asked John how his product was doing, and he said that he’s looking to hire a CEO with more product experience. One guy slipped away thanks to an offer from Google, but another guy was close to joining.
Fantastic! I told him. In order to get someone with CEO-level experience to quit his/her job to join his startup must mean his product is doing pretty well. But when I talked to him further, he said he was still looking to launch his MVP, or minimum viable product.
Huh? If an entrepreneur hasn’t launched his MVP, there are no customers or revenue. All an entrepreneur has is an idea. So after 1.5 years, John basically spent $10,000+ attending financial conferences, collected no revenue, and hasn’t even launched a working website. Totally illogical, right?
Wrong.
John mentioned that he was bored back home in Seattle with his wife and daughter. Same old stuff, every single day. Ever since he left the mortgage industry after it imploded in 2010, he’s felt lost. He decided to attend business school part-time, and from there he discovered his passion for fintech.
When I asked him whether he felt that flying down to San Francisco to attend conferences for 2-3 days at a time was costly, he mentioned, “not at all!”
“I feel so alive coming to all these conferences. I get to pass out my business card that says ‘Founder & CEO’! Before, I was just one of many mortgage officers trying to make a buck. Now, I get to meet so many aspiring entrepreneurs looking to do something new with their lives. They treat me as an equal. It’s wonderful!”
He went on, “Also, I’ve been able to meet plenty of interesting women. I always tell them I’m looking to hire a VP of Marketing or whatever role they are currently doing to keep their interest. As soon as I tell them this, their eyes light up as I’m suddenly the man of their dreams! I’ve been seeing this one woman for over a year now in the Bay Area. Even though she lives 45 minutes south of San Francisco, she always makes time to drive up and have dinner and drinks with me. I don’t know how long I can keep stringing her along about the VP of Marketing role, but she likes the attention and the idea of potentially working for me, so why not enjoy it while it lasts?”
It’s always about a girl isn’t it? Revenue, product, helping others with their financial problems be damned. On the one hand, it’s bad of John to string this woman along for so long as a married man. On the other hand, she’s an adult who makes her own decisions. Sadly, I have a feeling John is heading towards some difficult times both financially and personally as this fintech startup is his only gig.
The Unhealthy Desire For Prestige
Do you remember the kid in high school who was pretty goofy looking and tried a little too hard to fit in? I think that’s John. Now that John has the prestige of being the CEO of his own startup, he’s loving every minute of it. It doesn’t matter whether his startup ever becomes a success or not. Having attractive women give him attention is the best sort of validation a man could ever have.
I venture to guess we’ve all desired prestige at some point in our lives. As a kid, I enjoyed the prestige of owning a pair of Air Jordans and Armani jeans. As a college graduate in my 20s, I enjoyed the prestige of working in finance before the 2008 financial crisis hit. After that, working in finance felt like an embarrassment, even if you had nothing to do with people not paying their mortgages.
As a soon to be 40-year-old man, I don’t give a rat’s ass about prestige anymore! In fact, I don’t think I’ve cared about prestige since 2010, right about the time when I was seriously contemplating doing something else with my life. If I cared about prestige, I wouldn’t have driven an old car named Moose for 10 years. If I cared about prestige, I wouldn’t have left my job to make little money as a blogger. If I cared about prestige, I wouldn’t have rented out my house in the expensive north side of San Francisco to live in a much cheaper part of town that nobody has ever heard of.
There is zero prestige in being a personal finance blogger, but I love being one 95% of the time. It’s only about 5% of the time I get annoyed due to some callous remarks from strangers with no intellectual backing. I’m sure most people have no idea how lucrative being your own independent publisher can be either, which is just fine by me. Every day is a joy to come up with new topics to write about or solidify new business ventures based on the brand I’ve built online.
I’ve got very little power either. Let’s give it a try. All readers who’ve been reading Financial Samurai since January 1, 2014 please send me at least $100 via Paypal to my e-mail address at the end of my About page. It takes a lot of work writing these posts and responding to comments! Are you not at least entertained? Alas, I don’t expect anybody to follow through because we live in the world of free.
Source: Glassdoor. I guess some of these companies are prestigious. But who cares after a while?
How To Let Go
1) Find your purpose. Is working at Facebook really that prestigious if your role is to try and bring in more advertisers for fake news feeds? Is working at McKinsey really that prestigious if your role is to provide reasons for why your client should fire more people? Is working at Uber that prestigious if your mission is to figure out how to manipulate drivers with ridiculous requirements in order to keep them driving before your fleet of driverless cars take over? Is working at Goldman Sachs really that prestigious if your main goal is to analyze how to make more money for a billionaire who continues to hoard his wealth when there are hungry people in his hometown?
Come on guys. There’s NOTHING really prestigious about any of these companies, only the fact that you get to make a lot more money than most people. If you can get in, great. Make and save as much money as possible so you can get out and do something more meaningful as soon as possible. If you love your job then fantastic. But if you don’t, it’s not worth staying.
Our purpose often gets lost because we’re tied up doing what society tells us we should do. The best places to work are those that have a mission driven purpose to help solve real problems: hunger, child abuse, homelessness, disease, mental illness, financial calamities, domestic violence, poverty, etc. Having our “best and brightest” join firms to design new picture filters for selfies is ridiculous!
Note: I recognize these companies have some great positives as well e.g. connecting the world, lowering the cost of transportation for folks who can’t afford to live close to work, providing capital for small businesses, etc.
Related: Overcoming The “One More Year Syndrome” To Do Something New
2) Create something of your own. If the hardest part about life is getting into a prestigious university or company, then the path of least resistance is to coast thereafter. When you coast, you rely on the prestige of the institution to justify your self worth. Over time, you’ll be filled with self-doubt whether your accomplishments are your own or because of your company. Why do you think some people never leave? They’re afraid that without their company, they aren’t anything! To counteract this self-doubt, you must produce something original. Do it while you’re working so you can iterate without incredible pressure.
Before I press publish, I wonder how each article I’ve written will be received. Sometimes I’m scared to publish, but I publish anyway because I know that if I don’t, I’ll never grow. You will find extreme satisfaction putting new things out to the world. The satisfaction of building something from the ground up is more satisfying than anything you could ever accomplish under the umbrella of another.
Take some risks and create something on your own, no matter how small. You’ll feel embarrassed or hurt in the beginning. But it just gets better over time. Nobody can ever take away something you’ve created.
3) Practice gratitude. It’s easy to think our success is 100% due to our own merits. The reality is that anything good was created with the help of many people. There’s a weird amount of self-delusional narcissism that’s happening in Silicon Valley thanks to so many overnight successes. As a result, the majority of people who have not succeeded at the same level or time period feel an intense level of dissatisfaction, even though in relation to millions of other people, they are great successes!
Wake up every day and recognize the people who helped you get to where you are. Keep a gratitude journal. For me, I’m grateful for my father who helped give me the idea of starting a personal finance site back in 2006, my wife who’s been my CFO and COO since the beginning, and my mother who is always supportive in whatever I’ve wanted to pursue. And of course, I’m grateful to every reader who shares some insightful comment and shares my work around the web. Thank you!
Reading a note of thanks is more valuable than any prestige I could ever want.
Related: Life After Financial Independence
Who Are You Trying To Impress?
The unhealthy desire for prestige and money is making people depressed
For John, he might be trying to impress his wife, his daughter and other random women to prove he can reinvent himself after the mortgage industry collapsed. For me, I’m mainly trying to impress myself for not quitting for as long as possible. Each day I get up, I ask myself whether I want to grind or relax. Inevitably, I decide to grind for at least a couple hours even when the ocean beckons.
At the end of your life, nobody is going to care about your prestige and power. All they’ll care about is whether you were a kind enough person who touched their lives and wanted to help other people. I strongly believe that if you can figure out how to let go of your desire for prestige, money, power, fame, and all that other silly stuff, life will get better because you’ll stop caring so much about what other people think and start focusing on what matters most to you.
Recommendation
Screw prestige! What you want is the freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want. If you truly believe in yourself, then you should start your own website and build your brand online. Don’t let Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter get rich off you. Get rich off yourself! There’s nothing more rewarding that making your own money from nothing.
I started Financial Samurai in 2009, and three years later, I was able to leave my banking job because this site was making enough money. Now, this site earns way more than I ever made as an Executive Director with much less work and much more fun.
Here’s my step-by-step guide for starting your own website today.
Regards,
Sam, Chairman, Founder & CEO of Financial Samurai Writer
Wow, Sam. I know a lot of people who could seriously benefit from reading this. I feel like the Nashville version is saying you work someplace super hip like an indie record label or the newest tech company that’s decided to move their support team from SF to Nashville. The problem is, these jobs pay horribly. What’s even more hilarious is many of these gigs receive thousands of applicants.
Ah Nashvegas, my home town…the scene there has changed quite a bit in the last 10 years with a lot of people coming from SF to Nashville. At least the state income tax is lower than here in California. That is a 5-10% savings depending on the tax bracket and housing prices are at least 50% lower.
Excellent article, Mr. Chairman… uh, I mean… Sam. ;)
I really love that you address this topic head on. I’ll be the first to admit I used to chase prestige when I was younger. Now that I’m older, I realize it was a lot of wasted energy.
If you practice gratitude and look to serve others, you won’t be able to think about yourself. The beauty in this is that it also eliminates your fears. Without fear, you will take the actions that will make you grow and draw others to you.
In this place of growth, is where you’ll find the “prestige” you were hungering for in the first place… except you won’t need it or want it. Ahhh, the ironies of life. :)
John sounds like a real POS.
I have to admit that I enjoy the prestige that comes with being a CFO. I also love what I do and the company I work for. I’m working to accumulate enough money so if that ever changes I can get out and continue to do something I enjoy, regardless of my title. People treat you differently when they find out what you do for a living. But if you have enough money to live on and can afford to leave a high power job to do something you love, then who cares?!
Maybe just a fella who is bored, with low self-esteem, and a desire for excitement. As far as I can tell, he hasn’t done something terrible, yet.
Congrats for being CFO! When will you be shooting for CEO?
Maybe I misinterpreted. When you said he’s been seeing a woman in the Bay area for over a year, I took that to mean he’s having some sort of extramarital relationship with her.
Thanks for the congrats. No desire to be CEO though. I plan to be retired by the time someone would hand the keys of the company over to me :) Plus, that’s a whole other level of stress I don’t want!
Great post Sam,
This is really interesting and coincidental. I was watching a documentary on F. Scott Fitzgerald last night and even the great writer himself was subject to chasing prestige. The documentary claimed that he wrote books in part to impress women just like John did. Apparently he wrote The Great Gatsby and hoped it would revive his marriage.
I do think the desire for prestige can create unhappy lives. I think the worst case scenario is when someone starts chasing a job title or role that doesn’t suit their strengths. They take courses they have no interest in and cannot pass instead of focussing on their strengths.
Although everyone including myself cares about prestige to an extent, I believe I’m fortunate because I have this innate desire to want to do the opposite of everyone else. To your #2 point, I think that’s the only way I could ever gain complete satisfaction, my own work.
Thanks for the thought provoking read!
Very interesting about F. Scott Fitzgerald! I picked up the Great Gatsby several months ago and was AMAZED by his literary genius. Truly amazing work.
It’s true, we men have this incredibly innate desire to impress women and gain adulation from women. There’s a good saying from Gemma Teller from Sons of Anarchy, “Men need to be loved; women need to be wanted.”
Just what the doctor order, thank you.
Prestige is something I was shooting for before I understood how money works. The bulk of the population is after it and will never be able to afford it. There are also plenty of fakes running around like John (who seems to have a whole mess of problems with his image – hopefully his wife IS a Financial Samurai reader)
that chase the title and lifestyle, but don’t have the hustle, experience or intelligence to deliver.
I like your point, Apathy. Although not necessarily “fakes” I am amused to compare people who live in “unaesthetic” apartment complexes with Porsches & Maseratis in the carports against the Beachfront mansion owners who answer the front door in Kirkland sweat pants.
The people most focused on image may be the least comfortable with their reality.
Well, John’s name really isn’t John for privacy’s sake, and I have changed some details.
Are entrepreneurs with no minimum viable product after 1.5 years a fake? Or are they just simply delusional and/or terrible entrepreneurs?
Related: True Entrepreneurs Are Successful
I think they are a fake if they are stringing people along with a job they don’t actually have – but delusional and a “fake” seem closely related to me
I’ll feel free to extend that first paragraph to its logical conclusion:
6) is the ultimate reason why the Middle Class and the Working Class in America are going to hell; why these people end up in debt, broke, and/or homeless.
I’ve been typing about this stuff for well over a decade now. Image over Substance is what present-day America is all about, and the majority of people can’t afford this lifestyle but They Need To Impress Others To Prove Their Own Worth.
It doesn’t even have to be anything large-scale like luxury cars, the simple working class is digging their own graves by starting out small. Buying bottled water, for instance, rather than drinking tap water. The money wasted on that endeavor is cumulative over time; placed in an account somewhere where it could grow could mean the world over the course of years. But, no, they Need to buy those bottles of water and they Need to have $12 lunches each day at some cafe…
I find the biggest waste of money to be interest payments. I know a ton of people who borrowed every dime they could in college, bought a new car soon as they graduated, charged up credit cards because they deserved vacations and stuff, and topped it off with taking out a mortgage with the smallest down payment they could have who spend more in interest in a few months than I’d spend on lunch if I went out for 12 dollar lunches 5 days a week for a year and went through a couple cases of water a month.
To make it even worse most of them claim they can’t afford to save because of the debt, yet all they ever do is save the minimum and blow the rest on going out or on random junk like fancy cell phones. Whatever you could reasonable spend on lunches and bottled water isn’t going to come close to what a lot of people will dump on interest payments over a lifetime.
What’s the saying?
“Buying things you don’t need, to impress people you don’t like.”
And that you can’t afford ….
Things I mean. Lol
Frankly I think prestige causes low self esteem. A few years ago there was a study into why rich neighborhoods have a higher incidence of suicide. The findings of the study were it was the lower income in those neighborhoods offing themselves and a big cause for many was the stress of comparing one self financially. Essentially there is no ceiling to searching for prestige as there is always someone better. Pursuing it as a goal will push you for a while, it might even help initially in things like sports where you want to be the best. But at some point regardless you will top out, so the prestige can’t be your primary driver.
Very interesting. The Atlantic did an article on the high levels of suicide at Palo Alto High School. The median home price in PA is around $2.3M. So basically every family there is a millionaire or multi-millionaire.
What’s it all for? To go to a prestigious school to try and make more money at a prestigious company when you already have the money? What a waste.
I definitely felt the prestige factor coming out of grad school. I was one of 5 people in my graduating class who didn’t get a job at a Big 4 accounting firm and instead went to work at a mid-sized regional firm that no one had heard of. As much as I liked my job, I wondered about what it would have been like to work at one of the more prestigious firms, and I felt a bit disappointed that I didn’t have the chance.
After a year or two, I realized prestige wasn’t worth it because I was one of the few people in my graduating class who still was working at my original job (and still enjoyed what I was doing). The rest of my peers were fed up with the long hours and had moved on to their next endeavor.
Having a prestigious name attached to a resume may open more doors, but it doesn’t mean you’ll continue to stay there if you’re unhappy with your job.
Years ago I was far more concerned about other people’s perception of me, but as I’ve progressed through my thirties, I’ve realized it just doesn’t matter. I do believe my desire for prestige at a younger age was due to low self esteem; I needed others to know I was successful and that my life was wonderful (even if it wasn’t). However, I was never interested in fancy cars, expensive clothes, the best TV, etc.
I drive a 4 year old Honda Civic, and only bought that after my 13 year old civic finally bit the dust. I do have to admit I do like nice clothes, shoes, bags, but buy most of it at consignment shops. I have a nice condo, but could have “afforded” a much bigger house if I was worried about perception.
I am proud of my accomplishments, but do not typically advertise them. I don’t feel the need to make sure people I meet know I’m successful. The only person I need to impress is myself; and that is only to keep me motivated and engaged in life!
I think we all want to validate ourselves in our 20s. It’s one of the reasons why it’s so hard to lock down a motivated guy before 30. Too bust proving himself! And I’m sure it’s more and more common w/ women as well.
Related: https://www.financialsamurai.com/how-to-get-your-super-motivated-boyfriend-to-marry-you/
I don’t care about prestige anymore.
Used to work as radio DJ. The pay was good, then it turned bad. But I was a local celebrity and it was hard to let go of this. Fortunately the radio station closed down and I started working on my web design business.
Am not famous anymore, but I earn WAY more than before.
Great post.
So many quotable quotes.
“At the end of your life, nobody is going to care about your prestige and power. All they’ll care about is whether you were a kind enough person who touched their lives and wanted to help other people”
Thank you
Sam,
You seem like a humble and thoughtful individual, so I’m only pointing this out as a possible foil to your posts because I’ve been a reader long enough to know you welcome dissenting opinion…
Isn’t being FIRE with your own income generating personal finance blog and the freedom to do as you please just a different, more modern form of prestige? You have a loyal readership, many who envy you and your lifestyle, plenty of money and freedom, etc. You have figured out how to achieve the contemporary American dream! Certainly you have done this mostly on your own merits, but to think what you have accomplished isn’t prestigious is using an outdated definition of the word.
None of this is to say you chose this path and continue to do so out of the need for others admiration, just that if you told people you are a “personal finance blogger with a multi-million dollar net worth” instead of a “personal finance blogger who quit GS due to burn out to pursue (his) dreams”, you would likely get very different reactions.
I think there is nothing wrong with deriving varying levels of self-worth from prestige, in its many forms. Determining if the prestige is achieved and maintained on merit or on metaphorical handouts and good looks is what separates the Johns and the Sams of the world.
Great post, as always.
Hi Kendall,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Interesting notion about changing the traditional definition of what is considered prestigious. I’ll have to think about that further.
I don’t look at freedom as prestige. Freedom is just freedom. There’s nothing attached to freedom – no title, no company. Think about a 65 year old traditional retiree. Is she considered prestigious? I don’t think so. She’s just considered a retiree.
What I am proud of is starting this site and keeping it going since July 2009. There have been plenty of times when I wanted to do nothing all week, but I stayed committed. It absolutely feels good to hear some random person say “I’ve heard of your site” or something of that nature. I have yet to find something more gratifying than building something of your own to contribute to society.
Perhaps this is why I like to plant trees, clean, and remodel houses. It’s very satisfying to see progress!
The “Contemporary American/World Dreams” is accessible to so many more people now. And by that nature, it’s not prestigious at all since it’s not exclusive.
Thanks for reading.
Sam
Great idea! I should get a new business card so I can be a founder and CEO of a fintech company. I wouldn’t want to spend that kind of money to attend those conferences, though. John sounds like he is having a midlife crisis. People struggle to break free from their everyday routine when they get to that age and feel stuck.
I don’t care for prestige or power. They just don’t call to me. Money and comfort are my weaknesses. :)
You’re probably right about the mid-life crisis! It’s so common for guys like us. I’m preparing for my own through my Mid-Life Crisis Fund.
Great points.
At the end of the day, a corporate job is just a way to make money in order to food, cloth, and house you and your family.
When people try to come off as ‘all that’ because of a job title, it automatically tells me this person is not a free thinker and needs approval from others for their ego.
I have much more respect when people build things on their own rather than any corporate job.
Prestige means very little to me. For me and my family it’s more about earning a good living, saving for the future, staying healthy, and being able to enjoy the hard work. Of course it’s still very important to enjoy life while still working (I’m not pushing everything back to retirement). But, I also understand the payoff my hard work now gives me later in life. Way more important than prestige.
I largely agree, but I think the forces are co-linear. Needing it but not having it precedes having it but not needing it.
In a lot of ways, I think the prestige is what drives the work ethic. If a businessman didn’t want prestige/success, he’d stop after just his family was fed. Prestige, however, brings glory to the household, “I didn’t fail and Mom can be proud of me.”
But ultimately, if that equation never flips, you run into those who stay too long at their jobs because a lack of self-worth.
I would argue that if people want a taste of prestige, go get it. But be mindful that you’re being judged on what you do after you have it.
Lol, thanks for the article, Sam. A lot of my toughest career choices were made difficult by the prestige inherent in the “obvious” choice. Becoming a cop instead of going to Pepperdine Law was tough. I had to ignore the prestige of a law degree. Remaining in local law enforcement instead of joining the FBI was also tough. I had to ignore the prestige of the government finally acknowledge it I am “Special” (as an Agent).
Still, every time I see one of the legions of articles about how many lawyers hate their jobs or compare my 3/12 schedule with overtime against the Federal minimum 50 hour workweek and 25% LEAP pay, I smile. I turned my back on prestige and have had an awesome decade because of it!
Also, don’t undermine your own power as The Financial Samurai. It may not be the hard power of an employer, but your ability to influence and persuade your audience (soft power) is still insidiously effective. As an example, look at the people (like myself) whom you have persuaded to claim their own piece of internet real estate by creating blogs and writing!
DH’s family helped raise a boy who’s parents were divorced and very poor. This kid was very smart and went on to be an attorney. I remember a couple years after he graduated I asked him how it feels to be a big time lawyer and to my surprise he replied with the amount of debt he had from college was astronomical and he was always broke. When he’d come into town we’d sit for hours debating current events, laughing etc. The last time I spoke to him he told me that he was barely hanging on and didn’t know what to do. It was the last time I spoke to him because about 3-4 months after that he committed suicide. I’m so mad at him and miss him. We liked him just fine when he was really poor growing up and broke afterward, and proud of him for trying to get out of poverty. I guess the pressure of it all got to him.
That’s a very sad story Elizabeth. I wonder if we are pushing our children and young adults too hard. At the same time, I see a lot of softness as well “cry ins,” “walkouts” on campus etc. Like everything, balance is important.
Sorry for the loss.
There was a point in my corporate-world career when I was seduced by power. I remember being at a company picnic and oddly several of my staff and their significant others crowded around me and basically started to praise me about random stuff and give me a lot of attention. It felt really weird at first – I almost wondered if they were actually trying to poke fun at me – but they were just being friendly and sincere. It’s kind of unsettling to think about that now, but I remember getting a big high at that time from feeling a sense of power.
My days of managing people are past me now and I’m actually SO much happier. I think the incredible amounts of stress and burdens I went through as a manager made the allure of power almost like a way to justify the pains I went through. I thought at the time that management was the ultimate career path for me, but not anymore. Now I’m just happy managing myself and my business without all of that managerial madness!
Haha, that’s awesome! SO FUNNY about you being seduced by power since I know you so well, and you are the most unassuming, non power hungry person I’ve ever met! :)
Nobody has kissed my ass before, probably b/c I was never as kind as you. I’m too direct and like to joke around too much.
Is there a correlation between desire for prestige and self-esteem? Yes absolutely. Unfortunately I think this is one area where we are going backwards as a society. It is very much a “look at me” culture, everything from sports celebrating every individual good play to entrepreneurs tooting their own horn.
I don’t however believe that the pursuit of power and prestige lead to unhappy lives. The NEED for it does. Having it as the end goal probably isn’t as healthy as simply a byproduct of a different goal.
I tell people I’m a small business owner and avoid the prestige labels like “entrepreneur” and “start up founder”.
Good point about the NEED for prestige leading to unhappy lives.
One day, try telling someone you are unemployed and looking for new opportunities. I did that for 1.5 years when I played tennis midday on the weekdays at the public park. It was kind of embarrassing at first, but felt very cathartic on the ‘ol EGO!
It will be really embarrassing when I learn no one wants to discuss hiring me!
Amen.
If I wanted prestige, I would have been a surgeon. Those of us in anesthesia are a little lower on the totem pole, but fortunately, no lower on the pay scale.
I expected this to be more of a “Don’t waste your money on status symbols” post, but it was more of an indictment of Fintech John and all the other Johns like him. Nicely done.
Best,
-PoF
What’s hilarious is that non-doctors have NO IDEA what is considered the most prestigious types of doctors. We think all doctors have pretty prestigious careers.
It really goes to show how much prestige is in our own little niche and so self-driven.
In school I told a pre-med student if I were a doctor I’d probably be a podiatrist or something else low consequence and she scoffed at how podiatry is washout specialty like it had some reflection on my abilities. And I thought
1) a podiatrist is still a doctor
And
2) I’m not a podiatrist and have no interest in being a doctor.
I went on to get an MSEE in applied Electromagnetics, and I have a feeling she never became a doctor, podiatrist or otherwise.
Man, you really hit the nail on the head here. Coming from the law world, prestige was all I cared about early on. It’s only once I started working that I realized prestige don’t mean nothin. Out in the real world, no one has any idea what any big law firm is. I used to be so surprised when I’d say the name of my law firm, and someone in my city didn’t know what it was. As if some regular person in a bar is supposed to know that.
To avoid prestige, I really think it’s about getting out of your regular group of people. Law students are obsessed with prestige because that’s what every other law student cares about. But if you get out there, out of that comfort zone and talk with regular people who aren’t in that world, you’ll realize that all that prestige crap doesn’t really matter to like 99% of the population.
One thing, can I argue that “city prestige” is something that a lot of people seem to care about a lot? I see this a ton with friends of mine who don’t make a ton of money, yet refuse to move from their “prestigious” city, even though they could do much better in a lower cost of living city. I find that a lot of people don’t move simply because a city isn’t “cool” enough for them. That’s why you don’t see a lot of people moving from the coasts to the midwest, even though there are a lot of good jobs out here.
I was born and raised in a “prestigious” east coast city and my family still lives out in that prestigious city. I ended up moving to an unprestigious city in the Midwest – at least to people on the East or West coast – that I argue still has everything anyone needs to feel cool. It’s got cool bars, cool restaurants, theater, music, jobs, etc. There’s energy here, just as there is energy in any city, I think.
I’m very happy where I am and am positive that living here has benefited me much more financially than it would have if I lived out East like I should have. Lower cost of living, lower student loans, good income, and much less pressure to keep up with the joneses because people out here are much more humble and less flashy.
A lot of people, in my opinion, would do much better if they’d consider less prestigious cities.
So true to meet new people out of your niche who have never heard of your employer. Very humbling and good for the soul!
I never thought about prestigious cities. I just went to NYC b/c that’s where the job was. Same thing for SF. Great cities with an international attraction, but the cost of living is so much higher than inland cities.
It feels like life is pretty good everywhere in America, and I’ve been everywhere. If you can make good money and live in a low cost of living city, that’s great.
Now that I think of it, there was this famous line in Liar’s Poker saying, “You don’t want to be stuck doing equities in Dallas!”
I have heard that saying before too. Nice Comment.
I totally agree the unhealthy desire for prestige is a widespread and serious problem.
Deep down we all want to impress others, but I think most of us go about it in the wrong way. Instead of showing how intelligent or generous we are, we buy overpriced “luxury” goods to prove our worth. Unfortunately anyone with a credit card can buy these things and they don’t say anything about you, other than your willingness to overspend.
I think we all need to be comfortable with who we are, and stop caring so much about what other people think. If you can do that, you will almost certainly be a lot happier.
I do feel sorry for John’s wife and daughter. At the same time, I do you know how things can get boring after a while. If he’s just flirting, and nothing else, what’s the big deal?
He must’ve suffered a financial loss, or didn’t do as well as he expected. A lot of us lost a lot of money during the last financial crisis.
As a result, it is natural to want to start all over and create your own better mouse trap. The odds are against him, but that’s great that he’s trying.
It’s so funny settling being your own CEO and feeling like you are the bomb. And to dangle a potential marketing position in front of a woman he’s attracted to is what a lot of guys in power like to do.
The woman knows better. So if she wants to get involved with a guy who has delivered on nothing over the past 1 1/2 years, then so be it. She’s probably bored at home or so and just wants some excitement.
You got that right. I’m choosing a much less prestigious business school because going to Europe is a dream and it is so much cheaper.
One funny thing is that I got a Amex Platnium ad right in the middle of your article, I don’t need that prestige!
I chased prestige for years. In college I made about $100 a day in tips along with an hourly wage (a fortune for a college student) that was all disposable income. I have $0 left. I wanted the ‘ball out’ in the bars, buy fancy clothes, and show the ladies how “cool” I was. Ah, the compound interest that would have accumulated today. Prime investing years (2008-2012). Thankfully I have learned my lesson.
One thing rings true, we chase prestige because we are selfish by nature.
The only prestige worth anything is having a large enough net worth that you can work on things that are worthwhile, right? The trick is getting there. In many cases, the prestigious jobs pay the best and will get you there the fastest. But you have to have a plan, or you will get caught up in the wealth and the lifestyle and never sock away enough to get out.
Great article!
Brilliant article, more sentimental than most of your other articles, but it also resonates more with me for that very reason. This article is a reminder of why i keep coming back to your site Sam. I am looking for perspective and meaning, not just a lot of $ that really does not fulfill in any way. I know its an oft repeated cliche l, but money by itself really means nothing, and yet many of us are giving up our hapiness to acccumlualte money which we think will make us happy; very counter inuitive. One does not need a whole lot of money to actually live a meaningful/fulifilling life, but we do need is courage to fight society’s pressures and to succumb to a earn and spend lifestyle which no amount of money can save you from. If there is one thing that people living life on their terms have in common, its courage and the ability to resisit societal norms. That, in fact, is the real path to freedom.
I think anybody trying to get up the corporate ladder is seeking prestige to some degree, so I’ll freely admit that I fall within that category. While I shy away from public fame, getting promoted with bigger responsibilities is something that I’ve always strived for, and as a result, I was able to get to FI much faster. And I think most people that adamantly say they don’t seek some prestige and at least admit that they occasionally need affirmations aren’t truly honest with themselves.
I’ve met alot of people like John in start-up settings, and I agree with you, that if he doesn’t have a MVP or even a beta client after 1.5 years, he should be chasing something else.
Most ambitious people seeks prestige and self-actualization in the beginning of our career. It’s a major driver and motivator to climb the corporate ladder and to prove to ourselves, families and others we can do it. We only stop chasing when our missions/ goals are accomplished or fulfilled. Once we sit in the corner office, some of us realized it is no longer such a big deal and we start look inwardly as to what makes us happy and fulfilling. Right now, I am in this stage in my life that prestige is less important but having a work, home life balance are very important for me.
Great Post Sam! This is a thought provoking topic for those of us open for self-reflection. Sometimes life makes you realize it through major impactful events (job loss, loss in family, etc.) to those that are ready to listen. Prestige, Envy, Selfishness can lead to major accomplishments, but would ultimately lead to misery if there is no purpose. I had to go through a few events (not life threatening or heart-breaking) to realize the futility of prestige or giving importance to what others think. Ego plays a central role in keeping these negative drivers alive and no one (even those who realize the futility) is immune to the pull. I have to remind myself everyday (or a few days in case I forget) to check the ego and come back to reality with humility and being grateful to be blessed with my life.
I like to think I’m not driven by status and that I’m over chasing such silly things but every now and again I find myself doing something illogical that doesn’t make financial sense in the interests of chasing prestige >_<
Usually I catch it before I act on it and remind myself why it doesn't matter but it's easier said than done sometimes!
The ironic thing is that for most people the very prestige they are chasing will add no material benefit to their life and can sometimes evoke a negative reaction from the very people they're trying to impress :S
Indeed. This is why I’m a proponent of Stealth Wealth.
This piece made me feel way better about myself. This is one of the very few things I can say I haven’t wasted my time on. I often kick myself for wasting time and I feel a whole lot of grief over lost time which is what I hope FIRE will ultimately bring me (along with joy and peace). But I’ve never wasted my time on wondering what other people think of me or prestige or living up to other people’s expectations. I’ve always beaten my own drum and done things my own way.
@Dollar After Dollar – not chasing compound interest (I didn’t even know it existed in the real world) and generally higher interest rates earlier is also one of my regrets.
I’m not sure what I can add that @financialpanther didn’t already say about the law. The culture is driven by prestige. Every website bio on a law firm’s page will tell you where that lawyer went to law school. It doesn’t matter if he or she has 20 years of experience practicing law, people still want to see where they went to school so they can decide whether they’re “smarter” or not.
Your list of the 15 paying highest companies has two law firms (I wonder how many people reading this post identified them right away as law firms? Hint: Probably only the lawyers!) but what’s funny is that only one firm is in the top 10 most prestigious (and it’s not the top). There’s always a more prestigious position or place to work.
The only contra point I’ll make is that prestige is its own driver, so the fact that 99% of the population has no idea which law firm is more prestigious is actually what makes it so prestigious to some people. Certain people want to be part of an exclusive club that other people don’t even know about (those are the coolest clubs, right!?)
I could tell, b/c the Category section is on the right of the chart :)
I’m surprised Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz wasn’t on the list. The thing is, there are many, many lists.
A fantastic article – I love the focus on humility and self-awareness. I often find that people obsessed with prestige are trying to cover a deep sense of insecurity; a bit like the fellow in your article.
I have not been reading since 1/1/2014, but have probably gone through enough previous posts that I might as well have been a reader for the last 3 years.
Check your paypal ;) and Happy Holidays and keep up the good work.
Awesome Charleston! Got the $100. I’m going to share it with someone else. Thanks for the contribution!
I am a good example of one of these prestige seeking victims. I squeezed into a prestigious college off the wait list. Then on and off I went to some prestigious graduate programs and companies. I never felt confident at these highly competitive environment. Sometimes I am above average, and sometimes I am lower on the rung. Yes, you do become associated with the best and the brightest, but as a young person, it really is counter productive to your growth. When you are not one of the best among your peers you never develop leadership ability or confidence.
Prestige obviously is not all bad, but as much as we can we should seek out its intrinsic value.
A prestigious school, firm, company is prestigious for a reason. They have the best and the brightest people. They are at the cutting edge and have the most impact in their field. If you are going in for those reasons and are confident you can rise to the top. Then by all means go for it.
I think one should be honest with themselves when they seek prestige. Like the guy Sam described, it is very admirable to hustle and start your own company. But to do it for the appearance is a recipe for disaster.
I myself was guilty of that. Sure it sounded good when I tell people where I went to school, and where I work. But my day to day life was not that happy. 1.5 years ago I joined one of the more prestigious group in our city in hope of becoming a partner there and make banks$$$. In reality, the general atmosphere was not suitable for me. At these top companies, most people are very assertive and good at climbing the social ladder. For me that is not a second nature. Also you are constantly evaluated and scrutinized. Also coming in at middle age created a level of stress that although mentally I handled ok, but my body started falling apart. I started getting all sorts of medical problems.
My conclusion at this stage of my life is, it’s better be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond. Or better yet, be the only fish in your own pond. Nothing bad with seeking a little bit of prestige, but autonomy, freedom, and growth is much more important.
Thanks for sharing your story. I guess another solution is to be the big fish in the big pond and kill yourself to try and get there. But we all know that getting there is brutally difficult, and once you get there, then you start comparing yourself to even bigger fish in bigger ponds.
You might enjoy this post: The Health Benefits Of Early Retirement Are Priceless
I’m not saying you should engineer your layoff. But the post may give you the “permission” to take it down a notch and refocus on your health and happiness in a less stressful roll.
I think prestige is more a young (wo)man’s game. The pursuit of it has certainly grown more uninteresting with age.
I have always worked as a systems development engineer. What it did mean, once upon a time though, was prestige. We looked down upon user-space developers. We would not even condescend to consider a web developer an actual developer. If you weren’t deep down in the kernel, jiving with race conditions, interrupts and corruptions, you were a pretender. So much prestige. The glory of it all. And then my mother yanks me back to earth when she says “Well but that does mean you can or cannot fix this funny thing that my phone has been doing lately when I launch Facebook”. And you realize that all that prestige existed mostly in your head and in the heads of your clique and nobody out there in the real world actually gives a shit about your little pecking order.
I was starting to form a differing opinion until I read this:
“Our purpose often gets lost because we’re tied up doing what society tells us we should do.”
I think that nails it. Generally speaking, humans like to be told what to do. Direction provides a level of comfort. While some people no doubt begin their journey seeking prestige, I think a bigger percentage just don’t know what else to do, so they seek out what society says is a successful life. They’re doing what they’re told because it brings a level of comfort.
I enjoyed this post, Sam. Thanks for taking the time to write it!
I like the post. Let’s not mix up prestige, success, accomplishment.
Prestige is shallow and can be dangerous, Success is good if you know how to keep your inner self, Accomplishment is very good….
Well said. It is important for YOU to recognize you have accomplished your goals. Not so important whether other people recognize them.
Also as Sam emphasized before – progress. If you are improving every day, you will feel good about yourself.
This particular sentence really hit home…
“Take some risks and create something on your own, no matter how small. You’ll feel embarrassed or hurt in the beginning. But it just gets better over time. Nobody can ever take away something you’ve created”
I’m in that frame of mind currently, and since I’m also coming up on the big 40 in a couple of months I’ve been questioning what I want the next 40 to look like. Prestige is not really the issue for me, I’ve never really tied my self worth to any external attributes. My biggest problem is the potential guilt I may feel should I finally decide to cut the cord and walk away from my career. I plan on focusing over the next few years on how to best position myself to get past that guilt/fear of the unknown.
Your blog continues to be a great inspiration. Thanks!
Ah, guilt. I felt that a lot during my transition period e.g. What kind of idiot leaves a well paying job at 34.
Guilt is one of the main reasons why I wrote this post: The Dark Side Of Early Retirement, a year or two before I retired. I’ve since updated it to reflect on how I’ve felt years after retirement.
This is the best thing I’ve read all day. Prestige…I really can’t think of a good reason to go after it unless it’s going to do exactly what you said – to make money, save money and go do something more meaningful!
Refocusing your efforts in order to try to build a business/create something/change the world is NOT chasing prestige? I think the world is changing, period. Things that used to be prestigious are just less so now. The fact that there are more options than ever to make money now means that going the traditional route is less appealing.
I don’t think so. There’s nothing prestigious about starting from zero. Courageous. But not prestigious. If you succeed in “changing the world,” it’s not prestigious. It’s more heroic.
I started to see the difference between prestige work and meaningful work when I began working with a not-for-profit community health center.
I had worked in healthcare for years but always on the for-profit side. It was all about bringing in as many patients as possible paying the highest rate.
With the community health center, revenue wasn’t tied to patients. It was generally funded through grants, government programs, and donations.
When you look at patients as revenue sources, you tend to see them differently than when you look at them as people in need.
It’s much more fulfilling helping those people in need than just cashing in on their health issues.
Hi Sam,
Prestige is all psychological. No one really cares what brand you buy, except yourself. And shortly thereafter, it won’t matter to you anyway as you would feel much better buying more in value while spending less (e.g. Vizio TV versus Samsung TV with the same specs). Also if you have friends that do care about prestige, maybe you need new friends :-).
Whenever I come across a discussion like this, I’m overcome by the burning desire to find out about who and what my “new and improved” neighbors are next door.
The people who reside in multi-million dollar mansions with up to 6 garages. Single family residences, these people simply cannot exist without servants to do everything for them. They virtually broadcast E-N-T-I-T-L-E-D 24-7-365 right down to have blazing spotlights illuminating their fake-stone exteriors. Half a dozen vehicles are parked in front, despite only half that number of people living there. Do these elites have money or are they piss-poor showoffs thriving on the attention of others?
I’m comfortably financially independent myself, live well below my means with my money in my net worth not my “poor man’s” home.
But guess which one of us gets respect and which one gets garbage thrown onto his property?
This is certainly an age related concept at the core, in my opinion.
I’m actually going through this “prestige shift” right now. I used to care so much about silly things like sneaker and clothing brands. I’d spend stupid amounts of money on a named product just to showcase myself as a success, it was ridiculous.
Recently though I’m finding myself far more practical though. I consider whether the product itself is good quality. Is it warm? Is it comfortable? What material is it made from? How durable is it? I couldn’t care less about brand anymore, unless I appreciate the quality of the brand itself.
I can’t quite put my finger on whether it is due to aging, or due to me taking a keen interest in personal finance now. I suspect it’s a bit of both.
There is a lot of hubris in the professional world. At the end of the day, it’s what makes you happy and gets you going everyday.
I feel bad for that entrepreneur John you met. I wonder how much longer he can burn through his funds.
Hi Sam,
I love your blog and this post rings true on so many levels for me. I work in PR, mid-level role (so money is not all that great). Still, despite a bit of stress that comes with it, I love my job and am really good at what I do. One of my close friends is a single woman who spends countless hours at work doing what she can to have that prestige, to keep climbing up the corporate ladder. Doesn`t seem like she even enjoys her work all that much but the thirst for power is there and she seems to have changed so much over the years — the more power she has the more mean and greedy she gets. Power is an interesting thing.
I do agree with some people above seeing that I, too, also wanted more of that prestige and power when I was in my 20s but, now in my 30s, realize that doing what you love (and is passionate about) is far better than getting up the food chain to only end up doing work you hate and forgetting why you started working in that field in the first place.
Good job on everything you have accomplished. You are very inspiring! :)
I run my own small company now and I sometimes forget that people find it prestigious. I see that I am working FT elsewhere while I build up my client base and knowledge base and working myself hard. My company is a passion project that helps people and will hopefully pay me a decent enough salary to marry my girlfriend. When I meet new people, they only see Business Owner and assume that I’m rich and fancy or that I desire to be. Nope. In my FT gig, I see the consultants and middle-managers giving up their lives for a company that will chew them up and I have no desire to join them. I want to do good for the world and have time for my friends and chosen family. Luxury goods and tricking women into spending time with me under false pretenses is not a desirable outcome.
Excellent article Sam !!!
Its sad to see people living for false prestige all around. Every new shiny automobile, every new home, new 85inch 3D LED …is a living example of the same.
I was just discussing this with my dentist friend yesterday. We have both been working in “prestigious” health fields and while we love our work, sometimes the stress isn’t worth it. And while we are helping people, sometimes it doesn’t seem like it with our current healthcare system. It’s important not to tie your entire self worth to your work. There are so many other things to be passionate about like family, religion, community service etc.
If we’re not put on this Earth to be good people and help each other, then what’s the point?
Hey Sam,
Great post, I just reread it and should probably continue to read it periodically. I’m a big fan of the site and usually don’t comment – however I have an important question for you on the topic of prestige:
When does a full time MBA program make sense vs part time programs vs not at all (and spending that extra time / money in starting a business or doing more at your current job, etc.)? Would you get the part time Haas MBA all over again, knowing what you know now? I feel like prestige is a big part of the MBA decision whether people like to admit it or not. How large a part did the desire for prestige play in decision?
Thank you for the consideration!
I’d absolutely do it again. Berkeley is a top 10 school and can’t be having 80% plus of your tuition paid for.
It’s just way too expensive to go full-time for two years, pay all the tuition, is all that income, and lose two years of your life. I would go to full-time MBA program if I was already rich man had something lined up and I needed a big brea it’s just way too expensive to go full-time for two years, pay all the tuition, is all that income, and lose two years of your life. I would go to full-time MBA program if I was already rich man had something lined up and I needed a big vacation.
Time is too precious. Only go if you know for sure after you graduate you plan to work for decades to come.
Thank you very much for the quick reply. IF, at the same point in your career (I’m in a very similar position as you were), what would you pick if you had the options to:
1. Attend Harvard, Stanford, or Wharton at the full cost of tuition
2. Attend a ranked 10-15 school on a full tuition scholarship
3. Attend a lesser ranked regional MBA part time program at 80-100% scholarship (UCLA, Ross, UT)
4. Wait a few more years, and attend Wharton’s executive MBA program in the bay area (scholarship unknown)
I’m having a hard time understanding the benefits of a part time program if you’re already working in finance and don’t need the MBA to promote. but I have that unhealthy desire for prestige (non-target undergrad chip in my shoulder).
No idea about your situation Kevin. Go for the prestige and let me know how it goes! It sounds like you really want the prestige. Worst case is that you just have to end up working 2-4 years longer.
We regularly rejected MBAs from Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton btw.
I appreciate the advice, and thanks Sam! I’ll let you know how it all goes.
Thought I’d chime in. I work at a large Megacorp in the Midwest. Went back part-time to get my MBA at a Top 30 program in the city I live in – solid program but not top tier at all. My company paid all of the tuition through a reimbursement program. I had some co-workers pay additional to go to part time programs in Chicago and North Carolina. I’ve also observed our full time MBA hire program. The honest reality – there is no difference in future career paths going part-time or full time in my opinion. The people who went to “more prestigious” part-time programs are in no different position than me. Those who went full time at top schools got their foot in the door, but that’s it, don’t make more and have years to pay back their debt. Also, they may have unrealistic expectations of their career to justify going back full time and spending so much money.
I agree. I got the impression from two of my friends who went full-time to a great MBA program having relatively high expectations of their own career trajectory. We’ll see where they end up in a few years.
An eye opener! Thanks for the thoughts of yours.
I facepalm when people waste lot of money on wedding instead of invested in bitcoins – they would had a lot more money now. Yeah, their friends would call them “losers” for not having expensive wedding, but in few years they would be winners.
But of course likes in instagram is the most important thing for most people these days.