Harvard University consistently is ranked one of the top universities in the world. But what if you graduate from Harvard University and still end up a nobody?
A happy life is all about managing expectations. If you matriculate at Harvard, whether for undergrad or graduate school, great things are expected of you. And if you don’t do great things, are you a disappointment? Many would say so.
Education has been on my mind a lot lately because of my new jobs as a high school tennis coach and as a stay at home dad who is worried about not providing proper guidance.
I’ve seen first hand the grind my student athletes go through and I sometimes wonder whether it’s all worth it. Supposedly my high school is one of the best in the city, yet not every graduate goes to a university like Harvard.
Why Harvard University?
I pick on Harvard because it’s the most well known university in the world and also costs about $63,025 annually in tuition, room, and board if you receive no aid.
I’m assuming if you went to Harvard or another Ivy League School, you won’t be offended by this article. The golden carpet was rolled out for you compared to a field littered with land mines for the rest of us.
Using the word “nobody” is admittedly harsh, but I say I’m a nobody all the time and think it’s great! I went to The College of William & Mary, got my MBA from UC Berkeley and worked in finance for 13 years. Who cares. I’ve also been writing 3X a week on Financial Samurai since 2009. Ho hum.
Being a nobody is par fo the course. Most of us are not curing cancer or coming up with a vaccine for COVID-19.
On the other hand, if you attend a school like Harvard, you must go on to do great things. With an acceptance rate of only 5.4%, you aren’t allowed to retire early and waste your potential.
Forget about being a stay at home parent. Go out there and make a career for yourself! Don’t you dare work at the same job as someone who went to State U. either. Now that you can learn everything online for free, the stakes for achieving greatness have never been higher!
The purpose of this article is to:
1) Challenge our unhealthy desire for prestige and money
2) Reassess the pressure cooker environment we put our kids through
3) Discover what actual Harvard graduates do for a living
4) Encourage our smartest people to do more productive things with their lives
5) Give folks who’ve been rejected from elite universities and coveted jobs hope that anything is possible
6) Go beyond the act of giving money by spending more time helping people directly
7) Encourage schools to encourage their graduates to broaden their career prospects
Profiles Of Those Who Went To An Elite School
We only hear about famous people who went to Harvard. You know, people like the 43rd POTUS George W. Bush, the “inventor” of the internet Al Gore, Chairman of the Fed Ben Bernanke, Microsoft founder Bill Gates, Academy Award winner actress Natalie Portman, former First Lady Michelle Obama, the 35th POTUS John F Kennedy, unabomber Ted Kacznski and NBA basketball player Jeremy Lin.
But what about the thousands of graduating alumni Harvard spits out every year? What do they do? Let’s find out through a semi-random sampling of LinkedIn profiles online. To get my search started, I chose one person I know who went to Harvard and then clicked forward to see what her fellow classmates ended up doing.
My sample set is admittedly biased as someone with a finance background who therefore knows more finance people than average, but let’s see where the rabbit hole goes. I’ve changed some of the dates and tidbits to protect the identity of these random folks. If you think I’m talking about you, I’m not!
Harvard Alum Profile #1
Harvard College
Stanford Graduate School of Business
Occupation: Investment banking and private equity before b-school, private equity tech investor at TPG after b-school
Thoughts: She mentioned to me during a summer associate internship that she was not going to b-school for the main purpose of making money after I asked whether she’s going back to private equity after graduation. With an air of nobility she said, “Sam, life is not just about making money you know?” She then decided to go back into private equity and is now a VP making even more money. This career profile is the quintessential and stereotypical pedigree of an elite private school graduate.
Harvard Alum Profile #2
Tufts University
Harvard MBA
Occupation: Clorox marketing manager, Twitter marketing manager, self-employed, brand strategy at a Willamette Valley vineyard
Thoughts: Not many people think about working at an old-school consumer products company after getting a Harvard MBA, but Clorox has one of the best management training programs. But if you think about it, how excited can you really be marketing a toilet bowl cleaning wand as your career? She joined Twitter soon after IPO, but since the stock has done poorly, the company went through several rounds of layoffs and I suspect she was a casualty given her year of self-employment afterward. But now, she has a pretty cool job marketing wine and living a relaxing life!
Harvard Alum Profile #3
Harvard College
Dartmouth MBA
Occupation: Goldman Sachs, CLSA MD
Thoughts: Another standard career path for those who attend Ivy league universities. He was a great guy who caught an error in my resume when I was interviewing. I got the dates mixed up. I’m just surprised he’s still working since he was at GS for years before GS went public in 1999, and has worked for 25+ years now. I wonder whether he went through a divorce or something else is going on.
Harvard Alum Profile #4
Philips Academy Andover: Prestigious northeast private high school
Harvard College
Occupation: McKinsey Consulting analyst, VP of Operations at failed e-commerce startup, founder of clothing startup that needs funding
Thoughts: McKinsey is one of the hardest places to get a job after college due to their infamous case study interviews and brainteasers e.g. how many jelly beans can fit inside a Boeing 747 and why? After McKinsey, he spent five years working at one of the biggest flameouts in e-commerce history where the company raised over $300M and was valued at over $1B before getting acquired for less than $30M.
Good for him for utilizing what he learned to start his own e-commerce company. But without another round of funding this year, it’s highly likely his business will dissolve and he’ll end up burning through lots of his own cash. Running in place for 10 years is tough.
Harvard Alum Profile #5
Yale University undergrad
Yale University Masters
Harvard College PhD
Occupation: Analytics for a startup, analyst for a mobile gaming startup, director of growth for a startup, head of growth for another startup, venture capital, self-employed
Thoughts: I’m absolutely blown away by his resume. I was strongly considering getting a PhD after I left the private sector in 2012, but realized I was too dumb and impatient. The weird thing is, after all his education, he went on to join companies that have nothing to do with what he learned.
I can do analytics and growth marketing with the best of them since I run my own site. His path makes me feel that getting a PhD is too costly a career move today. With his resume, I would be seriously disappointed with my career so far.
Yale Alum Profile #6
Yale University
Occupation: Forbes 30 Under 30, Started a social media advertising company that rebranded after six years because they needed a change in direction (code for things aren’t working as planned)
Thoughts: I’m always impressed with the Forbes X Under X crowd. Yale has a 6.3% acceptance rate and is right up there with Harvard in terms of prestige. The advertising technology space is very hard because the margins are so thin and Google and Facebook are the oligopoly players. I tried creating my own online advertising network and did OK for about two years before I got undercut.
It doesn’t look like her company will ever get acquired, which stinks b/c for six years, I’m sure she and her co-founders weren’t paying themselves a market rate salary. They could have worked in tech, banking or consulting and probably made 3X more in the same time frame. But all the same, props to anybody who starts a company and makes it last for over six years!
Harvard Alum Profile #7
Harvard University: Math major, Phi Beta Kapa
Occupation: Co-founder of the social media ad startup with the Yale main founder, but left to start his own fintech company providing cheaper retirement plans for companies. Y Combinator backed.
Thoughts: After he realized the adtech startup wasn’t going to flourish, he applied to the famous startup incubator, Y Combinator, got in and launched his own fintech company that serves to reduce 401k administration fees. He raised a $3.5M seed round in 2016. In 2020, his company continues to do well and he’s raised even more money.
I’m completely biased for people who start a company, get into an incubator, raise money, and try and create something out of nothing. The vast majority fail, even with smart backers, but it’s still impressive all the same. I just wonder whether it’s necessary to go to Harvard or Yale to start a company?
Harvard Alum Profile #8
Punahou: Hawaii private grade school
Harvard College
Occupation: TV anchor at Bloomberg
Thoughts: Punahou is the school I’d love for my son to attend if we move back to Hawaii. It’s K-12, which makes it much more convenient once you get in compared to schools in SF where you’ve got to reapply for high school after K – 8. The cost is about $23,000 a year, which is 60% cheaper than private schools in SF and NYC.
This Harvard graduate is doing a bang up job as the anchor of Bloomberg West. I like her profile the most, probably because she always has a cheery disposition, kind of like your Facebook friend’s curated pictures.
Harvard Alum Profile #9
Harvard College
Harvard MBA
Occupation: Credit Suisse before b-school, McKinsey after b-school
Thoughts: Most graduates just stick to the finance path or the strategy consulting path. So it’s rare to see him try both. It feels like he’s still trying to figure out what he really wants to do in life given he’s still in his 20s. Understandable, but once again, I’m left wondering how we can encourage the smartest people on Earth to do more to help other people rather than to chase money.
Harvard Alum Profile #10
Greenwich Academy: Private high school
Harvard College: Majored in Art History
Occupation: Reporter at The NYT, founded a subscription based tech news site
Thoughts: Pretty neat to have worked for The NYT and then do something entrepreneurial in her field of expertise. Subscription based news websites are tough because most of the news you can read for free or can be shared for free. But all you need is 10,000 subscribers paying $100 a year to earn $1,000,000 in revenue, and perhaps $500,000 a year in take home pay.
I’ve just decided to go the 100% free model because there’s only upside when you’re at the bottom! I really like people who take what they’ve learned from their day jobs and try to do something on their own. I wish more people did this because there’s so much inefficiency with larger corporations.
Harvard Alum Profile #11
I’olani School – Private high school in Honolulu, main competitor to Punahou
Dartmouth College
Stanford University Graduate School of Business
Occupation: venture capital fundraising, private equity fundraising, account executive for a software company (8 months), consultant for a small CRM company (9 months), business development manager at a food delivery startup.
Thoughts: I’m thoroughly disappointed. After 19 years of private school and $600,000 in tuition, the guy ended up at a company that has already raised a Series D round. Even if the company goes public, he’s unlikely going to make a large amount of money joining so late in the game.
Food delivery companies have come under siege lately (Bento Now went under, Sprig went under, Munchery laid off a bunch of workers etc). If his company was figuring out how to deliver food more efficiently and profitably to help feed people at the bottom of the pyramid, that would be amazing. But it’s not.
Harvard Alum Profile #12
Phillips Exeter Academy
Harvard College
Stanford University Masters, Computer Science
Occupation: Goldman Sachs (1.5 years), international gaming company (3 years), Blizzard Entertainment producer (3 years), founder of own game company (3.5 years) before it shut down, founded another game company (4 years) but its game is still in beta.
Thoughts: I went to middle school with him and thought he was a great guy. His parents were wealthy and he was super smart. He had a great gig at Blizzard, the producer of the mega hit game World of Warcraft. He could have stayed and got paid extremely well. But he decided to go the entrepreneurial route, which is always admirable.
Because his family is wealthy, he can afford to go for seven years without making much money. This is one of the key competitive advantages of the wealthy, being able to take risks without financial ruin. But frankly, it’s a disappointment that after almost four years, his game is a bust. Being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart.
Harvard Alum Profile #13
Georgetown Preparatory School
Yale University
Yale Law School
Occupation: United States Court Of Appeals for the District Of Columbia Judge 2006 – present. Now incredibly famous for sniffling, ranting, and talking about beer during his job interview in front of a bunch of Senators. OK, this Supreme Court Justice is not in my LinkedIn network. I just thought it was interested to highlight.
Thoughts: With his mom as a judge and his father as the CEO of a company, this person grew up with an extraordinary amount of privilege. Despite having a relatively low salary for most of his career, he was able to pay off $200,000 in credit card debt, join a country club that had a $90,000 initiation fee, and take out a $1.1M+ mortgage due to the help of his parents.
He’s only known success in his life, and anybody who accuses him of anything bad will feel his fury! I don’t want to be this guy. I’d much rather be rich and a nobody.
Harvard Alum Profile #14
San Francisco University High School (private HS)
University of Pennsylvania (B.A.)
Harvard Business School (MBA)
Occupation: Created a subscription newsletter about life hacks after spending a couple years at a large consumer internet startup (post MBA), a couple years as a VC associate (post MBA), product manager at another internet startup (pre MBA), and two years as a strategy consultant after undergrad.
Thoughts: This Harvard MBA and U. Penn grad has done literally every job that such graduates would love to land e.g. strategy consulting, VC, internet startup. Since she was a kid, she has probably attended private grade school as well since San Francisco University High School costs $50,000 a year in tuition for the 2021 school year.
However, despite working at all the go-to industries and companies and attending all the prestigious schools a go-getter would want, at 34-years-old, she left it all behind to try and build something of her own. I get it because it is much more rewarding to build something of your own than build someone else’s dream.
The thing is, you don’t need all that education and experience to start a newsletter or your own website. You can start both for free. Yes, you will need something to write about and experience certainly helps. However, regardless of the road you take after high school, you will ultimately learn fascinating things about yourself and life.
Overall Harvard Alumni Snapshot
Now that you’ve read my not so arbitrary profiles of Harvard and other Ivy League alumni, let me share with you the Harvard graduate data provided by LinkedIn. It’s a good idea to type in your school of choice and read their snapshot before attending. Let’s take a look.
There’s a lot of misinformation in the graphs due to mislabeling, but we learn the following:
* The Boston Area is ranked first in terms of where most Harvard alum end up working. So you’ve got to wonder why Boston isn’t more of an economic powerhouse like New York City, London, or the San Francisco Bay Area. Boston is relatively cheap compared to other major international cities.
* New York City, San Francisco, Washington D.C., and Los Angeles are the main cities of employment for Harvard alum.
* Google, McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, Microsoft, IBM, BCG, Morgan Stanley, Amazon, and Bain are the most common employers. All the others listed in the employers column have to do with education.
* Business Development is the most common role. Business Development basically is a catchall phrase for those who try to build new business partnerships with other companies to grow revenue, profits, and exposure. For example, the Business Development role at Financial Samurai may entail building new advertising relationships with products in the retirement space. Biz Dev requires financial acumen, social skills, negotiating skills, and product knowledge. It’s a good role to be in before you start your own company. I’m surprised Education is higher than Entrepreneurship, since everybody wants to be their own boss.
William & Mary Alumni Profile
In contrast, take a look at the graduate profile on LinkedIn of my alma mater, William & Mary in Virginia. There’s a definite geographic bias towards the East Coast and it looks like consulting companies are the main employers.
I’m proud to see Education and Community and Social Services right up there in the What they do column. Check out your school’s profile as well.
An Ivy League Education Is No Longer The Golden Ticket
One of the most peculiar situations I found myself in was rejecting Harvard University and other Ivy League applicants for summer internships or financial analyst jobs at Goldman Sachs between 1999 – 2001. Goldman made all employees, regardless of their seniority, actively participate in the interview process in order to maintain our tight culture.
Here I was, a guy who absolutely would not have gotten into Harvard if I applied, rejecting guys and gals who would run circles around me in school. I’d most likely whip them on the tennis court, but tennis wasn’t a prerequisite to get a job in banking. There’s something to be said for hiring well-rounded individuals instead of robots.
Google, McKinsey, Microsoft, Amazon and the likes are all amazing companies with plenty of elite university graduates. But at the end of the day, what exactly are you doing with all that education and your top 0.1% brain?
Is your life’s purpose to figure out how to best optimize an online ad? Is your calling to provide senior management reasons why they should fire 25% of their work force to optimize profits?
Are you seriously pumped to wake up each morning to figure out how to best improve on-demand food delivery times? Come on. There’s got to be more to work than making lots of money.
Be Somebody Instead
The most fulfilling work directly helps someone in need. Compared to someone who works mainly for money and prestige, you will never feel burnt out and will never burn out as long as you are making a difference in someone else’s life.
Helping people in need is what Haben Girm, a legally blind and deaf Harvard Law graduate is doing. She has dedicated her life to making the workplace, technology, and life in general more accessible to the roughly 49 million disabled people in America (~15% of the population).
The joy I observe from my fellow teachers is next level compared to the joy and excitement I witness from my finance, consulting, law, and techie friends. I wasn’t lucky enough to realize this truth until I was in my 30s. Better late than never.
Although it’s nice to donate money once you’ve made enough money, the people who are most inspiring are the teachers, professors, social workers, and non-profit advocates of the world. They are the ones who often help the most, but curiously get paid the least. And then there are the research scientists and doctors who are actually utilizing their incredible intelligence to give people hope.
If you didn’t get into a school like Harvard, be thankful! Once you’re in the vortex, it’s almost impossible to break free. And if you did attend Harvard or the like, major props to you. Utilize your intellectual gift by doing something the rest of us could never imagine!
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Your examples of these Harvard and other top school grads are still very impressive, even the ones that you thought were “nobodys.” That’s your social circle? They’re mostly startup or other company founders! I knew you went to William & Mary, but I guess I didn’t remember you got an MBA from UC Berkeley. That would explain your social circle more.
I went to a very underrated Public Ivy – prestigious among people who know universities, but generally thought of as much less than it is.
There’s a lot of reasons why people succeed or don’t succeed on varying levels. What people generally don’t realize is all that holds some people back due to undeserved stigmas and stereotypes.
One guy with a PhD in an impressive science has always been very unemployed in low-level research or tech/analyst roles, far below what people with his fields of study should be getting. And he often went through difficult periods of unemployment because employers refused to hire him after they saw him in person at the interview. He’d go to interview after interview without getting hired because employers looked down on him due to his awkwardness that he could’t control, no matter what. And he didn’t have a network because he came off odd and awkward, and seemed to have a disability. He’s extremely kind, gentle, well-read, and smart, but people just refuse to interact with him, hire him, or promote him due to his outward awkwardness.
So in all your posts, you’re forgetting (or not knowing) about severe societal stigmas against hard-working, smart, and talented people who don’t deserve to be on the bottom rungs of society.
“ So in all your posts, you’re forgetting (or not knowing) about severe societal stigmas against hard-working, smart, and talented people who don’t deserve to be on the bottom rungs of society.”
What are they? Can you elaborate? And what is it that you do? Thanks
See: https://www.financialsamurai.com/rich-spoiled-clueless-work-minimum-wage-job-at-least-twice/
In my previous comment, I described some of them in the PhD guy example in my 2nd to last paragraph. Employers and all people are extremely stigmatizing towards people who come off odd or awkward due to shyness, social anxiety, Aspergers, or other disabilities. And it’s even much worse if the person is Asian or maybe other POC – multiple stigmas. It continues to be an extremely unjust society, even in SF.
Some of us are very underemployed, and our employment history doesn’t reflect our talents, skills, knowledge, character, and education. It’s people’s stigmas against us that hold us back, so we don’t have a network and people refuse to hire us for jobs we deserve.
I knew of an awkward, shy Asian American who went to an Ivy but struggled getting any job at all because employers and others looked down on him for coming off weird and awkward. And he was a totally decent, smart, hard-working person who deserved as much as the rest.
As an Asian person, I didn’t realize life was much worse for an Asian person in America.
Asian Americans are the highest earning racial group and the racial group with the highest chances of becoming a millionaire.
I think we’re doing OK. But I’m also biased because I feel really appreciative that I was able to retire at 34 and do what I want.
What is it that you do?
Life varies for different Asian Americans, depending on the individual. Awkward, shy Asians are penalized much more than awkward, shy people of other ethnicities because that fits into the stereotype of Asians, and no one likes stereotypical Asians.
If you go online to Asian sites on Reddit, Quora, or Plan A mag, you’ll see the everyday and complex stigmas, stereotyping, hostility, and injustice many Asian Americans suffer from.
Maybe your life is very good because you come off very confident, decent, and respectable, so people treat you well, and you’re able to get the jobs and life you deserve. But Asians who come off more shy or awkward are treated much worse and stigmatized much more than non-Asians who come off even worse.
Yes, Asians have the highest income, but that’s misleading – Asians are most likely to live in multi-generational and larger households, so that’s household income with often multiple earners. Asians probably don’t make that much per capita. And any Asian still needs to try much harder than a white or other person, all else being equal. Asians getting into any school are of much better quality than other ethnicities because they’re much more stringent in letting Asians in, whether officially through affirmative action, or just through subconscious biases.
Asians are actually the poorest in many areas of the US, with the highest income equality. Just Google. Even in SF, if a study were done, it would show a significant percentage of poor Asians, and Asians would definitely have the highest income inequality of all ethnicities in SF.
Got it. Are you Asian? If not, did you major in Asian studies or work in a capacity that studies Asians in American society? If not, what exactly do you do and where are you on your financial journey? I’m trying to understand more about where you are coming from.
I didn’t realize there is so much generalization about Asians. But I’m glad you recognize that life varies. I’d be careful stereotyping Asian people after knowing one awkward Asian guy who went to an Ivy League school.
Let me more about yourself.
thx
Yes, of course I’m Asian American. I thought anyone could read that based on what I’ve said in my last few comments.
I’m an observer of life. Through all my experiences as well as what I’ve heard/read from others, including from studies – I’ve come to a lot of realizations. And yes, I’ve read/watched many Asian American/Asian Studies stuff in my life. But most of this stuff are my own insights that are correct – just from my own experiences, observations, and the experiences of others. I’d consider myself pretty academic, so just because people don’t read or hear about everything I say doesn’t make it fake or invalid.
I haven’t had the good jobs that you’ve mentioned in various posts based on your circle and the people you know. I’ve been underemployed in various positions that I don’t wish to state. But I grew up in an education-oriented household, so my siblings and cousins are more along the lines of your social circle. I’ve been penalized unfairly in life due to being shy and awkward (social anxiety), so I never got anywhere near what I deserved.
I relate to a lot of what you write in your posts that people of other ethnicities would not say or think quite in the same way. There seems to be a lot of nuances and insights in your posts that I’ll never read in other financial blogs or other content in general. But we do still have great variation in our worldview due to our experiences, the lives we’ve lived, our own family’s values, and the fact you grew up as higher-class TCK in Asia, while I was born and raised in the US.
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.
I also have never heard of TCK and had to look it up. Seems like there is some negative connotations wrt identities?
I identify as American and appreciate Taiwanese, Japanese, and Chinese culture.
Sorry things have been hard for you. Is there anything you think your parents could have done differently to help you with social anxiety?
My son went to Harvard. He dropped out without graduating. Perhaps he disillusioned out. He survived.
High school was more like college with 14 AP classes, and all the pressure trimmings. I’m a public school teacher—I didn’t take AP classes in high school; I worked part time at Sears. I learned a lot about people.
So my son is 25; what is he doing? Well, he skied a lot last winter. He worked briefly in real estate & landscaping. He worked at a grocery store part time.
Thoreau, a Harvard graduate, is one of his role models. Thoreau, as you may remember, was a bit of a handyman for Emerson who wrote some essays his buddies helped get published.
Don’t make more out of glitter than it deserves. Don’t make more out of gold than it deserves. Shine is not all sunshine & life can be very short as the high suicide rates at many of those top schools will testify to. Pray your sons and daughters grow up happy, ethical and grounded in solid values—kind and thoughtful—real people—caring people. The rest of it are just shallow trimmings.
I know someone who was a Harvard graduate. He works as a Learning Specialist at a Middle School, running Advisory classes. His class is useless — he basically wastes a ton of kids’ time, year after year; and if kids don’t pay attention, he demands respect by marking Kids down for his class. Nasty! How pathetic!! This guy is very narrow-minded and stupid. What a disgrace to Harvard’s name!! The Principal really likes him though because he gets a Harvard guy to work under him! Both are disgusting and pathetic — I say that because they try their hardest to damage good kids and great minds just so they can abuse their little power!
They are not educators; they’re tyrants, and big bullies! Criminals in fact!!
I glad I’m in the medical field where we give 2 shits where you went to school. Your skill set will reveal itself as well as create your reputation. Each new hospital is another opportunity to grow and create yourself.
oh summer child…
‘we give 2 shits where you went to school’. It isn’t because your field lacks elitism, it is because your field does not respect your labor and hard work- or anyone else’s.
I don’t think you understand what that means…winter child?
I could go into a lot of comparative differences because it really is green apples to red oranges. For example, I’m not a doctor but make more money than many doctors by a big margin. I am rewarded this because of my skill set and work ethic. It has almost nothing to do with where I went to school. Although, I went to an excellent school that set me up with this work set of skills and work ethic that was honed to a student that had the prerequisites to benefit but my employer didn’t know that by school name or reputation. The doctors I work with also respect me as do patients. I arm rewarded trifecta.
It’s a great article, however I disagree when you describe yourself as a nobody, but then mention you held a banking job for 13 years. You weren’t a nobody, you had a JOB. Some of us (like myself) went to Ivy League institutions, but don’t have jobs. Granted, I’m only a year out of college, but still you shouldn’t look down upon yourself when some people do have it worse.
John, what do you want to do for a living and what has this past year taught you?
Yes, I had a job, but I still think I was and am a nobody. No biggie. 13 years in the business only to burn out is not impressive. Many people work for decades.
But I’m trying to be a somebody by helping other people with their finances and their lives with this site.
Thank You, Sam!
You helped me to understand that I am not poor immigrant anymore.
I found your blog because of my research on our financial standing. Yes, top 10%.
By income and savings(by age also, if include PENSION in to account) .
22 years ago we came to US with two suitcases per person( 6 total, one of them was with different books and my son was holding a globe for a 4th grade) and 2 month rent money. We suspected, that educated people earn more money then blue collar worker in US, compare to USSR, were any blue collar worker can say to the doctor “u r nothing”, because of wage disparity.
We did not go to any college in US.
Over 15 years we work for the state in IT.
We payed for our son’s in-state public education(UVA) with no savings in 529 “Pay as you go”out of pocket. He took a loan for a law school. He is 4 generation went to college from both side.
We knew words Harvard and Princeton, but not Ivy League or William and Mary.
Our educated opinion- Harvard is overrated. Bragging point for the parents.(especially immigrants) Consider Harvard as a breeding ground for the blue-blooded girls and white-boned boys.
Sam, interesting post and definitely thought-provoking. Whether we like to admit it or not, we are all guilty of this type of social comparison. Two thoughts:
I sensed a strong expectation for immediate career success. In my mind, a career is a marathon. I am impressed by those who achieve success fast, but they aren’t the norm, even for folks from this high-performance pool. Most people (even from solid backgrounds) have some false starts and horizontal movements before they find that trajectory
It’s all the data you had, but Linkedin profiles can be deceiving. My b-school has informal polls with comp benchmarks. From a comp standpoint, I know that I out-perform my friends in finance or consulting, but you wouldn’t know it if you decided to profile me.
Great 2018 update. I’m sure you were as bummed as I was when the Senate Judiciary Committee didn’t care to question the anonymous now-justice’s household Debt to Washington Nationals tickets ratio (D/WNTicks). Not that it would play as anything other than immaculately and paradigmatically American. Right up there with “I got into to Yale” as a character defense.
Side note- I’m now on my 19th year of government and scholarship-funded school. Earning a terminal degree without having spent a dime of my own or my parent’s money on education (except, for I think, a single laptop that lasted me nine of those years) will be extra-satisfying, even if I’ll probably never get to tout my love of beer to the Senate.
Hi,
Thank you for all your posts, first of all. I enjoy reading them. It’s always food for thought.
Regarding this topic, I saw many comments containing the phrase “it doesn’t matter where you go to school.” Well, there is a book called “Where You Go Is Not Who You’ll Be” by Frank Bruni that I would highly recommend. As far as my humble opinions are concerned, I think prestige does matter to an extent for graduate schools, but undergraduate education is more about finding a good fit for the student and the family (academically, financially, culturally, etc). For some, Ivy League/consensus elite schools work just fine, but they are neither the be-all-end-all nor paths to some guaranteed success in life.
I’m 64 years old and retired. I graduated from an elite, private university (little Ivy) with a degree in general engineering. I didn’t do well there academically, but I got heavily involved in the college radio station and spent my entire career on the technical side of the television broadcast industry. I spent about half my working years as a technician/drone in union-represented positions. Due to a high savings rate, I am now comfortably retired. I left full-time work at age 60 and worked a few years part-time before calling it quits completely about eight months ago. When I see the alumni magazine from my college it makes me wonder if I didn’t spend my entire career under-employed.
I read something about a guy who went to an Ivy League school and had friends who did also that were very unhappy in their finance, law and other prestigious professions. He got out and started doing work that helped others. He said he is happier and more fulfilled while his friends are miserable. He said do not chase money but focus on being useful and helping others. I agree with him. The reason I started a finance blog was to help others. There are no guarantees in life. Even if you get an excellent education. But doing the right thing and helping others is its own reward. Putting the smile on a child’s face: priceless.
Fascinating post. I graduated from UVA a couple years ago and have since been working at Treasury. I would have to agree with the old saying “its not where you go, its what you do when you are there that matters.” My high school is one of those boys prep schools in the DC area. One of my best friends was our valedictorian and he went to Princeton. College didn’t go so well for him because while he was naturally/book smart, he was not ready for the independence and necessary discipline of college. He coasted through high school but hit the wall in college. He struggled through and graduated late. He managed to get a typical web development job at a company in DC.
The Ivy League is no guarantee.
It’s definitely disappointing on a human scale that so many of the supposed brightest go into the finance field. There are so many human problems that deserve smart, innovative attention. I went to one of those small liberal arts colleges you mentioned. I now own a business that is for the public good. I don’t have the weight of expectations on me that an Ivy League may have offered. I want to do good and I do.
Hi Sam,
As always, great writing. Been a reader for years now. I am one of those elite college graduates you mentioned, having gone to Duke. My first few jobs out of college were marketing internships, before I ultimately landed a full-time job at a fin tech startup (which failed) and then spent the next 2.5 years at a family office.
The finance track is hard to move out of for elite graduates. I’ve definitely felt the pressure to accomplish a lot in my career because of where I went to school. And I still do, but I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing. It is a privilege and it opens up a lot of doors for me.
That being said, I want to use that privilege to help people.
Last year I quit working for someone else and started working for myself (not the best financial decision, but my happiness is paramount), and am freelance consulting (finance, sales & marketing) while I also build a career as a musician and writer. A big goal of mine is to create a holding company that allows me to focus on my own interests and make change in the world.
I am learning that finance can be an effective tool for social change. One of the more interesting projects financial modeling projects I’ve worked on recently involved a juicing enterprise in Africa that proposed providing benefits to smallholder farmers. I hope to do more projects like this, as well as to inspire through my music and my writing.
This was a post I needed to read. Cheers!
Congratulations for taking a risk and pursuing something more than just money and prestige! If it doesn’t work out, you can always fall back on the money. But at least you’ll know you will never wonder what if.
Interesting perspective. I thought this was going to go in a different direction. One more focused on (1) the hedonic treadmill these universities place you on, and (2) why you should have to do anything with your degree (why not just be lazy?).
I went to one of the military academies for undergrad, and a top 3 MBA for grad school.
#1. From my perspective, each time you place yourself in a cohort (e.g. an undergrad class), you are by default placed onto that group’s hedonic treadmill. Some treadmills are better than others. The military guys spend time being ‘manly’, discussing leadership, focusing on physical prowess, and being interested in being a bad ass. The MBA class placed me squarely into a group of people pretty obsessed with power and money (oversimplification for brevity.).
Now you can step off these treadmills, but it’s HARD. It’s a much better idea to do your research, and either avoid treadmills you don’t want to be on or have a plan to get back off of them.
#2. Why can’t you just do whatever you want? This post kind of implies that “with great power comes great responsibility” to do something meaningful. Maybe. But this position is part of the hedonic treadmill. Because I chose to strive, and get into this select cohort, I now have pressure to either be wildly successful (in something) and/or ensure that I continue to work as hard as possible to make a meaningful impact.
What you lose is the ability to choose all options. What if you no longer want to be a ‘striver’? What if you want to do something that doesn’t have a large impact or make a lot of money? Is it inherently wrong or “disappointing”, or should less type-A decisions be an option, even if you’ve been through Harvard?
Thanks Eric. What is it that you’re doing after your MBA?
My timeline:
– seven years military
– two year b-school (trying to get IM/HF, which didn’t happen. Interned in ER at BB bank)
– After a long search, pivot to RE – 1.5 yrs in commercial RE at a REIT
– ~6 months in an ER firm.
– Finally accepted finance was not a personal fit, and asset management is a shrinking industry.
– Vendor Mgmt /Biz dev at a top tech firm.
– Now product management at same firm.
Enough false starts post-MBA to warrant a lot of reflection. And plenty of lessons learned. No idea on long-term trajectory. I’m trying to rebuild my self confidence by holding down a job for a few years.
Leaving NYC helped (a little) with the hedonic pressure, but it’s there. Especially when I’m around MBA types.
Living in lower cost areas makes it easier to not jump to jobs your hate so you can make rent (Equity research is the worst.).
Enjoyed the article – I went the Ivy League way (Exeter, Penn, Wharton Grad) but no way could I get in today – You don’t mention the herd effect, where the people at great schools head into businesses that have worked for the last five or ten years – but where the future prospects are diminished. I spent the last 19 years as a Private Equity investor. The returns on a go forward basis are at best high single digits if everything goes right, which inevitability they don’t. On the other hand, I’m an active investor right now in public equities because I really enjoy it. If one does for the money, it is a miserable existence. I also know plenty of Ivy League graduates who got great places on the starting track but didn’t finish because they were check the box types or arrogant or both
Impressive resume! Did you make a killing in PE? Why do you think people in PE make so much when the returns are similar to the S&P 500 or less? Leverage?
For those interested in digging into this topic a little further, Malcolm Gladwell wrote a pretty interesting book, David and Goliath, that touches on this subject. I just went through this dance with my daughter. She chose Penn State over Wisconsin-Madison, University of Washington, Michigan State, Arizona and Florida. She starts in 4 weeks.
https://www.businessinsider.com/malcolm-gladwells-david-and-goliath-2013-10
I’ve never read the book or the article, but it’s pretty funny that we’ve come up to the same conclusions and have even use the same institutions Eh Google and Goldman Sachs.
I think my article is better because I provide 12 real life profiles with some thoughts and analysis, as well as overall data. But then again, his book is probably better because it’s a book!
It’s true, if you go to an elite institution, you’re always going to compare yourself to your peers. And there’s a high chance that some of your peers are just gonna really crush it out of the ballpark, making you feel miserable in comparison.
I agree with you. I loved your real world examples. I’d also make another point that once you get to college you need to really think about your activities outside of the classroom. I went to a school that is listed among the Top 25 Public Universities but I was a C+ student, not because I was an average student but because I spent a lot of time outside of the classroom involved in a multitude of clubs and student government, including VP of the Student Body my senior year. When asked by recruiters about my grades, I pointed to my extracurricular accomplishments and discussed all of the activities and lessons learned outside of the classroom and how those better prepared me for the real world than an accounting or econ class ever could. According to our placement office, I was offered one of the best starting salaries of all business majors my senior year and even better than several of the other higher profile colleges like engineering and architecture.
Just to also prove my point about my academic capabilities, 25 years later I went back for my MBA at a decent school in Chicago and finished at the top of my class, just to prove I did have it in me when I was so inclined to make academics a priority ;)
I am not in the same league as any of you, Ivy or not. But it is quite an interesting post as are the comments. I would love to sit down and talk a while with many of the commenters here–fascinating stories and views. It is worth noting the plethora of perspectives from which people view this post.
Sam, some people’s goal really is to make money, hang the “helping people” idea. I agree with you, that the most fulfilling work is directly helping people. But many certainly do not see it that way. (Btw, it’s easy for people to say “It’s not all about money” if they don’t have to be concerned with how they will manage to pay the electric bill this month.)
Some comments here reflect an angst about education and/or careers that have been chosen. I am a great one for getting lost because all I usually see are individual trees around me rather than the forest as a whole, but it’s helpful to step back and look at the big picture.
What are your goals? How will you reach them? More important, are the goals worthy goals?
So if one’s goal is to attend Harvard, why? Is that a worthy goal? What is the goal beyond that makes Harvard essential? Or if it isn’t essential, should one follow a different path to that “beyond goal”?
My “achievements” will never even be on the same chart as most of the commenters (zero fame, zero community acclaim, and negative income), but my job has been vital–at least to the ten children I have birthed and home educated. As that job winds down (3 years to go after 30+ years behind me), what shall I do for a second career?
One further comment. I’m puzzled by the comments about schools not mattering much *other* than the alumni network or *once* you get into the job market. The comments greatly minimized the significance of those two factors, whereas others gave the proper credence to their importance. Of course, your employer cares how you do your job and not where you went to school. But how did you get the job? How did you get the interview in the first place? How did connections help you along the way? You cannot say those do not matter.
Did you say you birthed 10 children? If so, that is amazing! Was it an intentional call? I’m struggling with raising just one, seriously. What is your partner do for a living?
How is the cost of raising 10 children?
Though a college grad (we met in college), my husband worked in manufacturing for 20 years, moving into management the last 2. When the company was sold, he was “laid off” with several others; the next year the new company closed the plant. He’s worked at libraries, for a cable company (tier 3 customer rep), another factory job at manufacturing plant…”Retired” now, working part-time. You can see why I say we’re not in the same league as other readers. (The cashed-in paltry retirement account kept us afloat during the 2-year post-layoff unemployment.)
Cost of raising 10 children? God always has provided our needs. We can’t provide in the way some of the readers have been provided for or provide for their children, but we’ve never gone hungry because we have no food. We have owned our home for 15 years (no mortgage) and I cannot recall the last time we had a car payment.